I'm not really vegan

[julieruble]

If anyone thinks we can or should use animals in a "humane" fashion, that's just speciesism in disguise. Either we acknowledge the fact that we should leave them alone so they can live their own lives or there is no hope for animals.

What are the effects on the ecosystem when domesticated animals (some of which seem to exist in few other situations) die out?

I gotcha on the slippery slope, although I do think you can draw a line between free-range eggs and free-range dairy/meat -- the line being that you have to inseminate ("harm") to get the dairy, or kill to get the meat. But your ideas are consistent with your goal, so.

[Admin]

What are the effects on the ecosystem when domesticated animals (some of which seem to exist in few other situations) die out?.

If you know, why not share your knowledge with us? What kind of solution would you suggest a solution to this "problem"?

[veganmike]

What are the effects on the ecosystem when domesticated animals (some of which seem to exist in few other situations) die out?

I gotcha on the slippery slope, although I do think you can draw a line between free-range eggs and free-range dairy/meat -- the line being that you have to inseminate ("harm") to get the dairy, or kill to get the meat. But your ideas are consistent with your goal, so.

Julie, I can only guess what would be the effects on the ecosystem if domesticated animals died out. Of course I don't mean they would die out in one day. Ideally they should be provided shelter and food until the end of they days and be allowed to die of natural causes. This means that dying out of domesticated animals would take many years as some animals have longer life-span than others. Their bodies should be dealt with in a way that would pose as little environmental impact as possible.

Farm animals are engineered species and play no role in ecosystems. They were brought to existence solely for human use.

If we got rid of animal agriculture, I think it'd safe to say that the environment would only benefit.

About drawing the line... Yes, you are right, we can draw the line, but as you can see everyone wants to draw it in different place depending on their own situation. I think that my point of view is a non-speciest one and therefore objective.

Things you've mentioned (chickens not being artificially inseminated or killed for their meat) may have an impact on animal welfare, but as I stated earlier my position is that of abolitionism. Raising chickens will always be associated with some form of human interference with chickens' lives, maybe minor one, but nevertheless.

Julie, I have utmost respect for your person, you know that. But I feel like you are trying to get me to admit that "theoretically, from a vegan perspective, there's nothing wrong with eating an egg in some situations if certain criteria are met". Well, OK, I could say that. But at the same time I know that our speciesist nature is very dangerous and every precedent of accepted animal use may pave a way to animal abuse. It's just our selfish nature. Everyday I face situations where I could use other people for my benefit... They wouldn't even know about it or get hurt from it. But I resist the temptation, because I know that if today I'm going to make this happen with "little innocent" things, tomorrow I might find myself doing other more harmful ways. It's always better to prevent than to cure. Especially with animals, because it's their lives and well-being that are at stake here, not ours.

[harpy]

Although I avoid using animal products myself and have done so for 10 years, I think there is a big difference (from the animals' perspective) between the best and worst in farming methods. So when people are bent on consuming animal products I try (if they seem at all open to it) to let them know about this difference in the hope that they will begin to choose the better ones. Quite a lot of people do alter their buying habits (somewhat) after these discussions. I am also in favour of organisations like Compassion in World Farming (www.ciwf.org.uk) many of whose activists are also vegans or avoiders of animal products themselves incidentally.

If this makes me not a vegan, frankly I'm not that bothered. To me it's more important to do something that benefits animals, and I believe this does benefit them, though others will disagree.

[gertvegan]

julieruble wrote

But what's wrong with going to buy eggs from a person who just owns a few chickens?

I think as mentioned above, the emphasis should be on the own . Chicken is a pig is a cow is a...... Who are we to say we own an animal and can do what we wish with it. Chicken periods, I think I'll pass.

I to support Korn moving the post, nothing against funkyvixen.

[julieruble]

This...

Farm animals are engineered species and play no role in ecosystems. They were brought to existence solely for human use

...sounds like a good point. I'd have to look more into it. They do play a role in ecosystems, but with no real predator/prey relations going on (since we can obviously adapt our diet to do without), the food chain wouldn't be as catastrophically affected as if, say, all the tigers on the planet died out. Their relationship is contrived.

I have to say, I don't think a lot of people here have thought this through to an end like you have. I think most are focused in the "now" of not harming animals and think animals shouldn't be used for food/products of course, but it seems like you've put more thought into the eventual goal. Are there any options other than letting domesticated farm animals die out? I guess keeping them and treating them nicely but...that does seem impractical if you aren't eating them.

BTW, Admin, I asked what the effects would be if the domesticated animals died out because I wanted his opinions on the effects -- so "If you know, why not share your knowledge with us?" wasn't the case. I do know what sorts of things happen when a species dies out, but this is a different ballgame.

Julie, I have utmost respect for your person, you know that. But I feel like you are trying to get me to admit that "theoretically, from a vegan perspective, there's nothing wrong with eating an egg in some situations if certain criteria are met".

Well, maybe not "trying to get you to admit," but trying to get either a "yes, it's okay to eat an egg" or "no, because...." Your "no, because" answer is fine, and I understand. But... I'd like to hear more about what relationship between humans and animals wouldn't be speciesist. When the domesticated animals die out, what should the relationship look like? What rights should animals be given, in your opinion?

[ConsciousCuisine]

Why not eat eggs?

They are not vegetarian.

Eggs are unfit for human -health building-consumption, even if they come from a "happy" chicken.

One Large Egg has 70% of the advised USDA of Cholesterol (213 mg).

Animal protein is difficult for your body to digest, puts undue stress on your kidneys and other organs and leads to uric acid deposits in the body.

In Jewish traditions, eggs are considered to be fleishig (status of meat).

In Hindu and traditional Indian cultures it is considered flesh as well.

Eggs essentially are the discharged ovum of the chicken that did or did not get fertilized. So, laying an egg is like the chicken's menstrual period, discharged waste matter that incidentally contains building blocks needed to make flesh.

Fertilized eggs are baby chickens that would still be baby chickens had you not eaten them, if they had been left with their mother instead.


There are other things to eat, you know...

[julieruble]

You definitely should not eat fertilized eggs.

Also, I know eggs aren't vegetarian -- that's not really the question, though. This is more of a theory question about the idea BEHIND vegetarianism. I.e., if the idea is not harming animals, why does eating an egg produced in a natural way not sync with that idea.

It's just hypothetical. I know there are other things to eat.

[gertvegan]

This is from www.animal-rights.com

What's wrong with free-range eggs?

To get laying hens you must have fertile eggs and half of the eggs will hatch into male chicks. These are killed at once (by gassing, crushing, suffocation, decompression, or drowning), or raised as "table birds" (usually in broiler houses) and slaughtered as soon as they reach an economic weight. So, for every free-range hen scratching around the garden or farm (who, if she were able to bargain, might pay rent with her daily infertile egg), a corresponding male from her batch is enduring life in a broiler house or has already been subjected to slaughter or thrown away to die. Every year in Britain alone, more than 35 million day-old male chicks are killed. They are mainly used for fertilizer or dumped in landfill sites.

The hens are slaughtered as soon as their production drops (usually after two years; their natural life span is 5-7 years). Also, be aware that many sites classified as free-range aren't really free-range; they are just massive barns with access to the outside. Since the food and light are inside, the hens rarely venture outside.

[julieruble]

I need to clarify. I'm not really talking about free range hens, either. In order to address the theory questions I'm getting at, I'm just talking about a farmer who raises chickens. There are plenty of folks who just have a few chickens here and there, and use their eggs for their family and give/sell to a few friends, perhaps. What I'm saying here is this: this takes out the cruelty aspect from what I can see, so now what are you left with to motivate you not to eat the eggs?

By the way, I was very satisfied with veganmike's answer...so I understand one viewpoint. I'm just curious to know if there are any more. Thanks to everyone for their replies so far.