Violent Children

[puffin]

When my eldest son started shcool i always told him that is anyone hit him to never hit back and just tell the teacher what had happened. As soon as he started school he started to get the odd kick from other children, then the odd push and to be honest i just got fed up with him coming back from school saying someone had pushed him over, he would just stand there and look at the child who had hit him with a look of confusion, he just couldnt understand why other children acted in such a violent way. I got so fed up with him being so upset with other childrens behaviour that i told him if someone pushed him to ask them not to do it again because it wasnt nice and if they did it again then to hit them back. This is completly against my beliefs but i just dont want him to feel vulnerable anymore. He isnt being bullied, its just the odd push, kick, punch from children that cant control there anger, and since he has been hitting back children have learnt to back of. Has anyone else been in this positon, am i wrong in letting him hit back when i am a totally against violence?

[Glen]

I can understand what your saying. Did you try talking to the teachers about it? Young school kids can be incredibly violent without even realising it, usually I blame this on their parents, so maybe telling your sun to be violent back is not the answer; this may land him in trouble. However I can see that you don't want him to feel vulnerable.

I definately think that having a word with the headteacher is a good idea, maybe he could talk to all children about behaviour?

[cedarblue]

how old is your boy,puffin?

my daughter is 11 and just about to move up to secondary school. she is not bullied but ever since her best friend who was in the year above went to new school last year she has been kind of on her own and 'partner-less'.
she is the kind of girl who really wants to be popular and is friendly and happy - unfortunately some of the other kids arnt and there are about 2 or 3 girls who know how to pull her string and persist in doing it.
it would never occur to her to think meanly or take the initiative to be unfriendly, as she just wants to have friends, but some of the others do seem to think beforehand about making others unhappy.

as there is not much left of this summer term now i am asking her to ignore it and hold on as she will be moving on very soon and wont have to deal with these girls again (she is starting a new school on her own with no others going there) - but nearly every day she comes home with little niggly stories of, not bullying but meanness.

i guess bullying can take different guises tho - it doesnt just mean physical abuse.

i would firstly have a word with the class teacher and not in the first instance, mentioning the problems kids name - but if asked by the teacher i would certainly tell - while they are at school it is the schools job to stop any bullying or anti-social behaviour. if nothing changes then i would talk to the headteacher about it. i have mentioned a few incidents before but now my daughter begs me not to tell as she doesnt want to be seen as a snitch, which is sad.

also without sounding petty, keep a note of any incidents - and find out if your son has any friends who have tried to help him and stand up with him when the trouble is going on.

not sure if ive been any realy help - just wanted to share my experiences and ideas really

good luck with sortin this one out...

damn bullies

[puffin]

Thank you
My son is 7 and never seems to get angry, and it breaks mine to see him feeling helpless.
The boy he had the most trouble has left, he kept trying to strangle him and i went crazy at the school that this boy always seemed to be hurting him and other boys in his class, all the teacher said was "i will have a word with his parents again" which as you can guess did sod all.
I wrote this because yesterday he was asked to ask this other boy to come inside and do his maths, he did as he was asked and the boy just said no and kicked him, now if my son ever did that i would be giving him a good telling of and explain to him that you dont treat people like that. Thankfully he has plenty of friends talk to
I am so sorry to hear about your daughter cedarblue, glad to hear those girls who are trying to upset her wont be going to the same school as her. Its sad hearing that she doesnt want you to talk to the teacher because she will look like a snitch usually the only thing parents can do is talk to the teacher and try and put a stop to the problem. I tell my son not to take any notice and that they are just nasty boys who always want attention.
I also believe Glen that violence isnt the answer, but when i told him it wasnt nice to hit he got hit more because the boys knew he wouldnt retaliate
The problem isnt that bad, just upsetting that children can be violent for no reason.

[Glen]

I speak from experience, unfortunately. I was bullied quite badly for about 3 years of secondary school. This was physical and verbal.

I pretty much tried everything. In the first instance I tried fighting back, but this resulted in more bullying, as people then got others involved. I tried consulting my head of year who was very supportive, but essentially did not punish the other kids, just gave them warnings.

I think I was dealing with a particularly strong occurence of bullying as the child seemed to have no sense whatsoever and any sort of talking to didn't work.

I already had depression, which became increasingly worse and eventually I could not go back to school. I finished off my GCSE courses at another place.

Looking back, I would not have retaliated, but avoided the bullies as best I could. I would have recorded details of any incident and reported them as soon as possible. Most schools now have an anti-bullying policy, if action isn't taken by the school against your son's bullying then inform them that they aren't taking their policy into account. Failing all that, speak to your local council and find out what action you should take, or contact the childs parents directly; they may not realise that their child behaves so badly and would be horrified to find out.

[Kumem]

I think it's really cool that you both have kids that can evidently talk to you.
So much bullying goes on that parents are never aware of, because their kids feel uncomfortable about talking about it. You must both have good relationships with your kids.

[puffin]

I think it's really cool that you both have kids that can evidently talk to you.
So much bullying goes on that parents are never aware of, because their kids feel uncomfortable about talking about it. You must both have good relationships with your kids.

Thank you Kumen, i have always told my son that we do not keep secrets, and you should always talk about your feelings and even if a tiny thing is worrying him then it is much better to talk about it. As a child i was always worried about talking to my parents in case they went crazy at me so i never ever want my son to feel like that.
Sorry to hear that you had such a hard time at school Glen, i never understand people who go out of there way to make other peoples life so awful and never think of the damage they are doing to there mental state. Glad to hear you didnt let them effect your GCSEs
My son is not being bullied, he just gets the odd kick now and then, the odd push and they are not an every day thing, its just kids who just lash out in a violent manner that worry him, but he has been taught never to be scared of anyone as we will always make sure any bullying will be sorted out, and if he tells me straight away when he gets out of school that someone hit him that day i head straight to his teachers class and tell him want had happened
I just dont understand why parents let there children get away with this sort of behaviour

[adam antichrist]

It is very normal for 7 year olds to behave like that, particularly if they come from a violent environment. I was very violent at that age, but grew out of it by high school. You've got to remember puffin that you are against violence, but you have to let your kid make up his own mind whether he will be against it too. Telling him to hit back is the right thing to do even though you didn't like it, and good on you for doing so.

Remember what happened to jesus when he never hit back!

[Seaside]

Posted by adam antichrist:

You've got to remember puffin that you are against violence, but you have to let your kid make up his own mind whether he will be against it too. Telling him to hit back is the right thing to do even though you didn't like it, and good on you for doing so.

When I was in junior high school, I went through hell. My parents had always told me to ignore harassment, and the more I ignored it, the worse it got. Then one day they started in on a new girl, the first Viet Namese student at our school. She immediately beat the crap out of a couple of the boys, and they never did anything to her again. I wish I'd been able to solve my problems that way.

I don't think that self-defense and standing up for yourself should be considered entirely outside the realm of pacificsm.

[my3labs]

A few years ago my daughter (she would have been 13 then) was suddenly dumped by her best friend of three years. Her ex friend parterned up with a group of five of the bad kids and started bullying my daughter. Mostly verbal, but one of the girls actually hit my daughter. We tried the "ignore them" thing for awhile but it didn't get any better. I then went to the principal and they were great about it. The pulled all the girls in one by one and said that some of the staff had witnessed some bullying by those girls. The girls started throwing out all kinds of names of kids that they thought could have told. They didn't even mention Sarah (my daughter). The bullys were ok for awhile but soon started back in on her. At one point, one of the girls actually did something in front of me which floored me. I immediately went to the girls' houses, had a chat with the moms and that was the end of it.
The worst part is the long term affects that it can have on your child. My daughter is still hurt because the ex friend was like a daughter in our house.
Don't tolerate it.
And, yes, it is the schools responsiblity to manage what goes on in their school.

[Boo-Boo]

Bullying is the worst aspect of school-life, isn't it ?

I always brought my child up to be compassionate, and now he will not defend himself, which frustrates me. He is often picked upon because he is large for his age (this seems to bring out the 'macho' side of other boys who want to fight him), and also because he has 'Asperger's Syndrome', so he's slightly different. The syndrome also means that he cannot relate easily to others, e.g reading facial expressions, etc. It saddens me and I feel like storming round to his school and giving the bully kids a good shake sometimes.

However, I don't know about you lot, but I have found bullies throughout my life, and I think that dealing with them at school helps when you're older. For instance, you soon learn that it's 'risky' to be 'different', but you do earn respect by being true to yourself.

Schools have to take bullying seriously now, so I am going to advise my son to keep safe by avoiding trouble and trying not to get himself cornered, and reporting all problems to me and his teachers. I am very worried about how he will cope with High School - he's 8 now, and in August will start at a tiny school with only 22 pupils! That's great, but when he is 12 he will change to a school with 1,400 pupils. What a shock that will be!

I sometimes feel like keeping my son at home with me, but if we do that they will never learn how to cope with this big frightening World, eh?

Best of luck to anyone else with these problems.

[Glen]

I agree with Kumen, communication is the first thing and its great your son feels he can tell you.

My son is not being bullied, he just gets the odd kick now and then, the odd push and they are not an every day thing, its just kids who just lash out in a violent manner that worry him, but he has been taught never to be scared of anyone as we will always make sure any bullying will be sorted out, and if he tells me straight away when he gets out of school that someone hit him that day i head straight to his teachers class and tell him want had happened
I just dont understand why parents let there children get away with this sort of behaviour

The worry for me here is that it sounds like bullying, or, more to the point, it could escalate into bullying. One thing is for sure, the behaviour of the other children is by no means acceptable.

Everyone is different, if ignoring the children doesn't work for your son then try othe options. I took up a martial art and even if it didn't instantly make me able to retaliate it did improve my confidence. Maybe that would work for your son. Its good that you are inbforming the teachers, I would still think about asking your school about their policies on such matters

[Pilaf]

One thing you have to remember is that these kids are not even ten years old yet. At this age the average kid is gonna have a poor attitude. Partially as a result of immaturity, but mostly as a result of upbringing because this is the stage where little kids still imitate their parent figures. These kids aren't gonna stop bullying your son unless something is done.

The course of action I would suggest is to have a talk with his teacher about this, and inform him/her of what is going on. If this doesn't change anything, I'm afraid your son is probably going to have no choice but to learn to defend himself. Although "hitting them back" is rather barbaric and crude. I would suggest putting the young man into a nice martial arts class... something along the lines of Judo. It's a wonderful self defense system, and I studied it myself as a boy. It still comes in handy from time to time when people decide they don't like me and they don't wanna talk things out. Oh well. It's a nice world we live in. Good luck with your problem.

[Kumem]

I agree with Kumen

TU - It so rarely happens in RL, that it's always nice to hear lol

[puffin]

Thank you everyone for all your great advice, i dont feel so bad now about asking him to stick up for himself.
I will have a word with him about martial arts and see if he would like to have a go. My husband did take him to a martial arts class once and he got really upset, but he is older now and maybe he will be a little more confident
Thanks again x x

[Nivvie]

I take bullying very seriously, and I think everything should be tried, if the initial ignoring/teacher stuff doesn't work.

When I was a kid a boy I knew killed himself. To end your life at 12 just because of school is pure desperation.

I remember we used to say how it would be over in four years, but he couldn't wait that long. Such a horrible waste.

My six year old was hit a lot when she first started school, she has a hearing problem and children used to make fun of her speech. What really annoyed me was most of them were kittle girls, and I found it so shocking that a five year old girl would want to repeated hit another.

I went to see the headmaster and he spoke to the teacher, but nothing happened. They wouldn't take it seriously, but my daughter was being sick with fear before school.

I tried talking to the parents, but as you might expect these days, they weren't willing to accept that ther child was at fault.

It was then that I started home teacher her part time, but couldn't let her leave altogether as that would be setting the wrong example.

I too told her to hit back in the end, and it was that that worked, she had to show them she wouldn't be a victim, and now with the home schooling she is happier and more confident, and the everyday small incidences of arguments and scraps don't bother her, and she holds her own. She now, genuinely enjoys school.

The martial arts thing is a really good idea, as is anything that build their confidence. It helped my daughter to join the pre-brownies group rainbows, as she made better links with other girls who are at her school, and she also now goes to a drama club, which has helped.

I truly hope it works out for all the kids mentioned above, and I feel for you parents too, as I know how painful it is to see them so sad.

[Cryospark]

Thank you everyone for all your great advice, i dont feel so bad now about asking him to stick up for himself.
I will have a word with him about martial arts and see if he would like to have a go. My husband did take him to a martial arts class once and he got really upset, but he is older now and maybe he will be a little more confident
Thanks again x x

yes a very good idea I would suggest Jete Kun Do this is a very interesting martial art, developed by Bruce Lee. Most martial arts encourage discipline but some are quite lackluster in their approach. Jete Kun Do is rather thought provoking with philosophical branchs of learning, you also have the whole thing where the child can imitate the great Bruce Lee, you also have videos in which you can use to inspire

[Realfood Mary]

You know Puffin, your son sounds so very like my own, that although there is two year age gap I am wondering if they are twins! Séamus is nine, and has had this problem for a while. We go to karate together, but our instructor always tells us not to use it if we don't need it. I was getting very concerned that Séamus wouldn't be able to use it, and that if anything I had been too pacifist. However, coming back from the shop a month or two ago an eleven year old and nine year old boy tried to mug him and take his food and money off him. He decided to punch the bigger boy as hard as he could in the stomach, and dropping his bag went one, two three to the solar plexus. The big boy doubled over, the younger lad legged it, and Séamus got home with his bhajis and veggie samosas intact.

I would recommend anything that allows your son to feel physically secure, while actively teaching him to control violence, and use it for his own gain. If a nine year old boy who hasn't hit back in years can defend himself against a kid a foot taller than him, that is a good thing, and the other kid might now think twice before beating up little kids. Learning to defend yourself, and also that you are worth defending, does not make you violent. It makes you less likely to be victimised. So for what it is worth, I think you are doing the right thing. Your kid won't become violent and cruel because he defends himself anymore than if he defended an animal that was being attacked. We would all give him a round of applause if he hit a kid who was kicking a cat. Your son is worth defending, and I am glad you have told him that he can defend himself with a clear conscience. It will make his life much easier.

Unfortunately Séamus continues to be punched etc at school, because he will not hit anyone unless they are actually going to really hurt him. The only other fight he was ever in was to stop another boy from pulling the legs of a spider. I wish he would stand up for himself a bit more.

[Nivvie]

Learning to defend yourself, and also that you are worth defending, does not make you violent. It makes you less likely to be victimised.

That's the crux of it to me.
Pacifist should not equal victim, and self defence does not equal violence.

[Realfood Mary]

Having said all of the above, my son came back today from school, with a sun guard cap - a present that was given to him by a vegan body builder on Saturday - stained and scuffed because the other children grabbed it off his head, and threw it around, jumped on it etc. Neil asked him why didn't he fight them to get it back, they were jostling him, etc, and he said, "Josh (our sensei) tells us not to start a fight unless we have to." It seems that Séamus will only fight if he really thinks someone is going to badly hurt him, not to protect himself from pinches, punches, bruises and robbery. It makes me so sad to see him proudly going to school in a vegan fitness cap, only to have the other children tease him and spoil the gift. He says that the other kids are jealous of him for being vegan, and as someone who was jealous at school of the veggie girls, and teased them myself, I can only say, he is quite perceptive.

Mary

[puffin]

Poor seamus, what a nasty thing to do to him. He sounds like a lovely young man Thank you mary and nivvie
It made me so sad reading your storys. I would like to say that even though i am quite shy if anyone upsets my children then i become a different person, i am very protective and i will not tolerate them being upset.