My childs school trip to a farm...

[jhodgski]

Hiya,

I've got a bit of a dilemma: They've arranged a day out for my lad's school class to a nearby park/farm place.

I wouldn't have a problem with him going, but it's going to cost £10. The problem isn't that I'm skint, but that some of the £10 goes to the farm...

I feel a bit torn, cos obviously I do not want to fund the farm, but I don't want my son (who's five, by the way) to miss out...

I know he already feels a bit different for the other kid's as it is (e.g., when he's the only one that can't eat what they've made in baking sessions and they have to make him something else, etc.).

He'd really look forward to the day out, and I don't want him to feel any more alienated. But I just wondered what other people think?

Cheers,
James

[tails4wagging]

What about you having a chat to the organiser and suggest an alternative place to go?.

[Pilaf]

It's important to take a stand. Let them know that you do not approve of this. Instilling a good lifestyle into your child is more important than the opinions of others.

[flowersandbeads]

I don't think the school will pay much attention to just one parent that doesn't want their child to go on the field trip. I remember what it was like. If your parents sign the permission slip, off you go. If they don't, then they take off without you. (they don't even wait for you if you're late)

I say, give your son a day off from school. Spend the entire time with him while the other kids visit the farm.

[Makoto]

IMHO, it seems here that the issue is that the parent doesn't want the son to feel left out or alienated...not so much what the school will say or think but more how the son will feel.

a 5 year is young.. a bit young to take ethical stands.. or to understand a parent's ethical stands.. at least in my view.. i don't want to offend anyone. I just think the kid might feel hurt or disappointed.

[my3labs]

I assume you are raising your son as a vegan? If it were me, I wouldn't have him go. Can you find something even more cool for your son to do that day, so that he doesn't feel left out? An amusement park, etc?

[jhodgski]

Thanks for all the replies...

I'm afraid the trip is already organised, so there's no chance of an alternative.

But, no, the issue isn't really about me taking a stand - as it's no way going to alternate the way the school thinks.

The real point is as Makoto says, my son (he's called Joey, by the way) feels different enough as it is, and I wasn't wanting to make that even worse.

He understands the ethics of being vegan as most people (of whatever age do, if it's explained to them) - that it's not nice to hurt animals - but my other fear is as the number of events like this accumulate in his life he may one day decide that he doesn't want to be vegan anymore...

Though, obviously, I don't want to fund the farm.

So I'm not sure at all...

[cedarblue]

is the farm a business? obviously its a business but i mean is it owned and run by a farmer or is it one of these 'educational farm-experience' type of farms for kids to go and pet the animals etc...?

if it was a farmer, im not sure why some of the money would be going to him? why would he be charging?

sory, not really helping here, just interested in the background

[Kumem]

IMHO, it seems here that the issue is that the parent doesn't want the son to feel left out or alienated...not so much what the school will say or think but more how the son will feel.

a 5 year is young.. a bit young to take ethical stands.. or to understand a parent's ethical stands.. at least in my view.. i don't want to offend anyone. I just think the kid might feel hurt or disappointed.

I would have to agree with this sentiment. I don't have kids yet, but am planning on having a family shortly. I don't think that it is fair to make a child feel too different or alienate them from other kids. I also would not want to fund the farm though, so I can see your dilemna.
Although, maybe your boy can, even at such a young age, help the other children to appreciate non human species and understand why it is wrong to eat them. It is wrong to work in an abbatoir, but people go undercover to expose the goings on there. I know that might seem like a bizarre comparison to make, but if you don't get close to the action, you can't influence it.
If I were in your shoes, I would want to go along and 'help' and whilst I was there I would do my best to explain to the children how important it is to respect non humans. You could potentially do some good work here and sow a few seeds. Plus, your son would feel that you were taking an active part in his school trip, but reinforcing what you have taught him at home and maybe making a few other young minds think about things.
That's what I would do

[Helen_Edwards]

I think I would agree with Kumem - use it as an opportunity for Joey to find out more about why it is so important to be vegan - a trip to a farm could be a perfect way...if the school will let you go and put the "alternative" view point across. And you may reach other kids at the same time.
I see your dilemma though - I would not be comfortable with my money going to the farm either. But maybe the way to think about it is that the £10 is going towards the education of your son.

[jhodgski]

CedarBlue, what you were saying I was kind of hoping was the case, but I've looked into it a bit more and I don't think it is.

I've found their website ( http://www.cannonhallfarm.co.uk/ouranimals.html ) and it says 'Baby animals are born almost every day' which obviously means that unless the farm is the size of South Yorkshire then animals are also killed or sold frequently as well.

Kumen, I get your point - If I can use the occasion to do more good then harm, then it makes sense to go ahead. I'll give that some serious thought.

Helen, I'm not sure what education my son would get from the trip except whatever is fed to them which is most probably, "Our animals are nice and fluffy. Therefore farms are nice and fluffy." But I'll certainly go (if I'm allowed!) and put the alternative view across, but I'm not sure the best way to do this with 5 year-olds - something like "Yes, the lamb is nice and cute AT THE MOMENT, but next week I'm afraid he's going to look a bit different..." - Hmmm, I'll have to work on it!

[Helen_Edwards]

Yes, I agree the trip would be of limited use if you can't go & blow through the fluffiness they will present.
I'm not great with kids, but maybe one thing to do would be to talk to them about what is in their packed luches, and point out the appropriate live animal to help them make the connection...

[DianeVegan]

I think that at the age of five, whatever you decide will be okay. Hopefully, this won't be something your son remembers til adulthood. I personally would let him go. He should see the workings of a farm just as he should see the workings of a plant farm (I'm sure some of the money for the trip is to cover school expenses, not just the farm). Children sometimes become overly curious about the things we won't allow them to see. This could be a great opportunity for you to discuss your son's day with him.

Good luck !

[jhodgski]

I think that's what it needs. I'm not sure what the school will think if I invite myself along, but I suppose it has to be done.

This is like living in the dark ages... I can't believe how our culture dictates that children have to be in such ignorance / protected from such a truth - and for what reason?

You know, you look back at the world's grim history, but it's like we're still living in the past. Does anyone else feel like a medieval witch?!

[flowersandbeads]

He's not different than the other kids... he's better! And let him know that. I don't want him to isolate himself over something like this. Have him pay no attention to what the others might be saying...or eating.

[Makoto]

hmm maybe seeing fluffy animals will make one feel less likely to want to harm or eat them... not that it would justifying farming though.

[Geoff]

He's not different than the other kids... he's better! And let him know that. I don't want him to isolate himself over something like this. Have him pay no attention to what the others might be saying...or eating.

What a great way to get a child accepted by his peers. Tell him to let them know that he's better than them!
He's NOT better than them. He's just had more opportunity to learn about animal suffering.

[tails4wagging]

Working farm parks are common in lincolnshire and yorkshire.

It is a way for the farmers to get children interested in becoming farmers!!!!.

We have two near here, one has pigs and piglets with no farrowing crate and the other has farrowing crates!!. When I visited one such farm park a small child was calling out to his mum to take a look at a small bullock. I said quietly to him that will become a beefburger soon. But unfortunately he ran off and didnt hear me!!. I was undercover assessing the place so I tried to keep quiet. Difficult!! It has had warnings from the RSPCA to clean up its act.

The animals are kept until they are ready for market. So the children are unaware what happens to them after there visits.

What is so sick this particular place is also a garden centre selling plants etc,.!!.


If your son wants to go, let him. My vegan friend and her children go to one to show them the animals and although it doesnt sit right giving them the money to go in, at least it pays for the animals food and she checks them out.

[Nivvie]

I've had similar situations with my daughter, with school trips etc.

The only thing we've put our foot down about was a circus trip, but I see nothing wriong with the farm.
A stay on a farm and a trip to the slaughterhouse was what made me veggie in the first place, and I was six coming from a major meat eating family. Kids should see farms, and the chances are he will remember it and be wiser.

My daughter too feels a little left out, and when it was bonfire night at school they all had hot dogs, I didn't know this was going to happen, and the teacher gave her one even though her records are marked vegetarian. She was four and in reception, and I don't think she wanted to make a fuss in front of her little friends..

I saw this as a little wake up call, that simply not feeding your children meat, is not enough. They need to know why, and so gently introducing then to the animals and their treatment without inducing nightmares is important.
My daughter also once had a mini-strop at a party as the only sandwiches were meat and I wouldn't let her have any. After a little education, and a trip to a field of pigs where I explained that 'this is pork', she now refuses on her own account, not because we make her.

I think it's important to let their own feelings give them confidence to speak up.

Btw, you could ask if they need any help, that way it's not really inviting yourself, and yeah, I don't think anyone would listen to you if you suggested something else. Opinions in schools are so deeply set.

[Shisha Fiend]

When I visited one such farm park a small child was calling out to his mum to take a look at a small bullock. I said quietly to him that will become a beefburger soon. But unfortunately he ran off and didnt hear me!!. I was undercover assessing the place so I tried to keep quiet.

I just imagine you in a trenchcoat and a trilby, with dark glasses, sidling up to people and whispering things like 'it will become a beefburger soon' or 'the dew sits lightly on the plains of Moscow', or even 'you have the goods?'

[Imapeach]

When I was 7 my mum took me to visit a farm. It was a little family business, that was dressed up nicely for visitors to pet one set of paddock cows and have a chance to milk them by hand (I late on realised they had a milking machine further down the paddock, that we did NOT see at that time), play with chicks and ride ponies. It was a whole lot of fun, and while I feel a little awkward knowing that I had that experience with something i'm opposed to now, I feel it was one of the many experiences that helped me develop the respect I have for animals today. Seeing them in the flesh and interracting with them, learning that they have personalities of their own and are highly emotive gave me an insight into the animal kingdom that I think was priceless.

I dont know if this story helps you, but I remember how happy I was to be with these creatures at that young age, and it gave me a joy I now replicate by not causing them any harm. So maybe a farm visit will have a similar impact on your son? Children are amazingly perceptive, and capable of making their own decisions when it counts.

[Nivvie]

I remember how happy I was to be with these creatures at that young age, and it gave me a joy I now replicate by not causing them any harm.

We were out walking the other day and saw some cows, and my daughter waved at them and called out 'Hello! I won't eat you!'

[adam antichrist]

There was a thread going a few months back about the simpsons, beginning with a post about Lisa's trip to a similar farm that set her on the path to vegetarianism.

I think it's good for kids to experience animals in the various environments they are kept and used in, within reason...

[Realfood Mary]

a 5 year is young.. a bit young to take ethical stands.. or to understand a parent's ethical stands.. at least in my view.. i don't want to offend anyone. I just think the kid might feel hurt or disappointed.

A child is never too young to be educated ethically. When my son was five HE refused to go to the zoo, because I had always told him the reality of zoos. He came home telling me he didn't want to go to school on the day of the trip and handed me the letter. In the event we went up to an animal rescue centre instead, and he fed the chickens and pigs.

An hour's disappointment in a child's young life just does not stack up against the exploitation of animals. What would you do if your son came back thinking all was hunky dory down the farm, that farmers loved their animals, that the animals had a happy life. Would you arrange a trip to the slaughter house?

If you were allowed to go with your child and say "you see that poor pig? Someone is going to turn her into bacon," etc, then you might have a reason to send your kid there. But you will not be allowed to do that, and the only message a child could get from the day would be that "all is fine down the farm."

You need to make a stand. Five year olds have morals. I know a child who as a baby in a high chair, 15 months old, made a moral decision never to eat fish. He was eating fish, then his granny showed him the gold fish that were in the kitchen. He looked at the plate, looked at the tank, looked at his granny, and started screaming. He threw the plate on the floor. He is five now, and has since gone veggie.

People think, even five year olds. Give them the respect and dignity they deserve, and always tell them the truth. They will thank you for it at the end of the day.

[Nivvie]

People think, even five year olds. Give them the respect and dignity they deserve, and always tell them the truth. They will thank you for it at the end of the day.

That's the reason why I would let the child go, not keep them away.

Even if the child cannot be accompanied, a later lesson on meat will helped greatly by memories of contact with these animals.

Some really need that emotional and sentimental bond to put a picture together.

Although, my brother has been to a slaughterhouse and as a chunk of our upbringing was in the middle east, he's seen many a poor creature, and person, die in front of him in the street, and still, even with these memories, he went back to meat as an adult.

No animals are going to be saved by the child staying away from the farm, but maybe, if it helps affirm the images and truth, many may be saved.

[tails4wagging]

I just imagine you in a trenchcoat and a trilby, with dark glasses, sidling up to people and whispering things like 'it will become a beefburger soon' or 'the dew sits lightly on the plains of Moscow', or even 'you have the goods?'

LOL!!!!!!.

[jhodgski]

Right, well I've booked myself on this school trip. There was a bit of umming and ahhing from the teacher, but it looks like I'm on the coach.

Problem is, what am I supposed to say to these kids once I'm on the farm?

Ask the guide awkward questions?! Point out to the kids that, yes, the animals are cute *at the moment* but won't be once they come out of the other end of the slaughter house?!

Not very good at this sort of this thing (and not really looking forward to it...) so any input or help with how to make the most of the situation would be appreciated!

Cheers,
James

[Nivvie]

I went on trip to a farm with my daughter class when she was in reception, and one of her friends asked
'Do they get nuggets from chickens?'
I said 'Yes', as anything other than that would be a lie.
'Do they have to kill the chicken to get them out?'
'Yes.'

She didn't seem shocked, appauled or blaze, she just went off looking deep in thought. No one is going to expect you to lie to them, you have the right to answer questions truthfully, but volunteering infomation to children other than your own will be frowned upon.

My daughter recently had a friend to tea, and she asked me 'Doesn't Eleanor ever eat meat?'
'Nope.'
'I think it's not very nice.' she said.

My first urge was to tell her how damn right she was, but I shut up.
I talk to her mum a lot, and she told me yesterday that her daughter (they're 6) has said she doesn't want to eat meat again. Apparently the family have been experimenting with Quorn, and now the girl has made a decision that the mum is respecting. She asked me for some advice as all she knows is Quorn, and it was then that I went into full veggie mode, reeling off the choices, the health benefits, blah blah blah.

I think my point is (eventually!) kids can see for themselves, but even if it breaks they're heart and you made each and every one of them realise the truth, without supportive families it could all be pushed to the back of their minds again.

Your best avenue lies with raising a veggie son. When I was at school I was instrumental in tons of teens turning veggie. I was the one with the veggie food, the CIWF leaflets with veal calves on them, and I made it look (as it is) easy.

[Roxy]

Hi jhodgski

Have you been on the school farm trip yet? How did it all turn out for you and your son?

[jhodgski]

Hiya Nivvie,

Yeah, you're dead right - you've deffo got to answer truely to any questions they ask.

But my uncertainty was more along the lines of:

o Should I point out to the kids (5 year-olds) which type of animal they've got in their sandwiches, so they can make the link?
o And/or should I ask the guide awkward questions (like, 'why are all the baby calves female - what happened to the male ones?)
o Or what is more appropriate?

(The school trip is tomorrow, Roxy)

[Realfood Mary]

Hey Nivvie!

That is wonderful. Well done you and your daughter for being such positive vegan examples! And your friend seems to be that rare thing, a mum who respects her six year old. You have just made my day, which is great after some of the rubbish I have had to put up with today!

Hope the visit goes well. Let us know how it goes (if or when it goes.) I am sure that as your sons parent you will do the right thing. Because when all is said and done, he is your kid, and you know him better than anyone.

And again, thanks Nivvie. Sounds like your daughter and my son would get on!

[jhodgski]

Hiya Nivvie,

Yeah, you're dead right - you've deffo got to answer truely to any questions they ask.

But my uncertainty was more along the lines of:

o Should I point out to the kids (5 year-olds) which type of animal they've got in their sandwiches, so they can make the link?
o And/or should I ask the guide awkward questions (like, 'why are all the baby calves female - what happened to the male ones?)
o Or what is more appropriate?

(The school trip is tomorrow, Roxy)

PS - Korn, is there some reason why it is taking so long for my posts to show up? Am I being monitored - maybe for mentioning shop-mate too much? If so, it makes it kind of pointless when other people are having to reply for me because my posts are taking forever to show up...

[Nivvie]

Hmm, this is a toughy.

If you want to point some things out, I don't see any harm in doing it in an educational fashion. The chances are, even if you said in a loud chirpy voice, 'And here are the pigs children, and they are where we get bacon from', many wouldn't care, many wouldn't understand, and it's not like you're describing the journey from farm to sandwich in gory detail.

I also don't see the harm in asking questions, as long as it's done 'innocently'. If they can see you're 'trolling', agitating, they'll dismiss you.

At the end of the day though, farms speak for themselves. Many sensitive children will be left with some kind of link.
A real farm with real animals will make meat 'real', maybe not right now, but it does put something into the child's mind that will blossom later.

Remeber, even if you managed to explain to each and every one of them the truth, and even if they refused to eat meat when they got home, like Mary said, so few parents respect that. They'll tell them to snap out of it, promise them a Happy Meal toy and it'll blow over. There is little to be achieved in the short term, but in the long term, possibilities.....

[jhodgski]

> 'And here are the pigs children, and they are where we get bacon from'

Yeah, but that almost makes it sound ok! It makes it sound to straightforward and uninvolved...

Joey (my son) told me their teacher was telling them stuff about farms today, and how the farmer looks after the cows and how providing milk doesn't hurt them. Despite everything I've ever told him to the contrary, he was very definate about it.

I eventually managed to overrule what his teacher has said, but obviously all the other kids will go home thinking all is well will farms and what goes on there.

It's just ignorance teaching ignorance.

[Helen_Edwards]

You have probably already gone, in which case I hope it went well - let us know!
If it's not too late, a positive way to approach things may be to encourage a love & respect for the animals the children see. I went on a farm trip with the school when I was young, and the only thing I really got out of it was seeing some beautiful animals up close - growing up in London that was fairly unusual. But a respect for animals is a good start for any kid.
The other option might be some open questions - maybe ask the kids what they think about what they see; what they think the animals do all day; what would they (the kids) do if they were in that situation (i.e. a pen/cage 24/7) - encourage them to think about the trip beyond what the guide tells them. (Sadly education is all too often about giving kids information, and not showing them how to question that info.)
Sorry, rambling a bit there...anyway, good luck! And at least you will know exactly what your son has seen/been told so you can counter any bias from the trip for him.

[princessemma]

My daughter is going on a trip to a 'working farm' with her nursery class to see the baby animals. I didn't want to say no so I allowed her to go and put my name down as a helper but I am unsure what to do now. I will be responsible for my daughter and two other children but if someone starts talking about milking cows I want to whisk my little girl away before either
a) she can be brainwashed or
b) I can't behave myself and start giving my opinion on milking cows.

But I can't enforce my views on two other children can I? Why do they have to go to a bl**dy (pardon the pun) farm. I've checked out the website and there is a butcher's shop so you can basically pet an animal and then purchase and eat it's mother. Am I the only one who thinks that is really really sick!!!!!

[xwitchymagicx]

Am I the only one who thinks that is really really sick!!!!!

No I think that is sick to.

[tabitha]

I am so glad mine are older now. There are so many issues to consider.

[xwitchymagicx]

I guess it is like me having to go to zoo's for college.

[Tiggerwoo]

Ewww....... glad I don't have kids so I'm not faced with that sorta situation.

[Bunny]

Maybe, if it is at all possible, just accentuate the positive about the animals themselves. Perhaps if you explain how wonderful each animal is, how loving etc then you will get the other children to take on the message without getting into trouble. It is a difficult situation. I have three small children myself and so I know what you mean. I would be a little reticent to push the message home too hard as children tend to get there themselves eventually. I hope it goes well, good luck!

[princessemma]

I've decided not to send her. I'll try and take her to an animal sanctuary instead. I can teach her about animals. They need to learn about big and small, babies and adults and animal needs such as food and shelter. I can teach my daughter in a much more compassionate way and my money won't be going towards something I believe is wrong.
I respect other vegan parents might choose to do something different and I'd be interested to know how other parents have handled similar situations.

[annabanana]

This thread is really interesting.
I am bringing my kids up veggie but with a strong awareness of veganism (I have not managed to go vegan yet - but I am getting there) and my daughter is going to a farm soon with her school and I have been feeling pretty much the same sentiments as others on this discussion.
I have found thhe things that have really gotten through to her about the reality of eating meat is (and sorry it's grim) seeing animals carcasses hung up in butchers windows, that is when she realises meat is just dead animal.

Can't remember who said it but the idea of taking the kids to an animal sanctuary is brilliant. I might try and suggest that for a future trip.

[Maisiepaisie]

It is a difficult situation but personally I would have gone. It would be an opportunity to tell the children that cows are made pregnant and they produce milk to feed their calf but humans take this milk etc. This isn't our personal belief, its fact! Therefore I would feel its acceptable to tell children this and not care how any stupid omni parents feel about it.

[princessemma]

A month ago perhaps I'd have had the guts to tell all the children the truth but I am just too fragile at the moment and I can't stroke something that in a few months is going to be sent to a slaughterhouse without breaking down into floods of tears. At three and four years of age I don't think these children would even understand if they were told the truth, they'd be told that cows 'give' milk and think it's all okay.
Taking an innocent child to that farm to fall in love with condemmed animals is just not something I can do.

[Geoff]

When my kids were littlies, we had a circus come to our area and the kids expressed an interest in going. I suggested we go and have a look at the animals first and, having done so, they decided that they didn't want see the circus performance. This was 20 years ago but I still remember the tiger cowering in a tiny cage in the corner of a trailer as chairs were being very noisily stacked next to it after a performance.