There is no such thing as a dietary vegan

[Mahk]

Disagree with you on which point?..

That there is a singular, all encompassing definition of veganism which clearly defines leather seat usage in a taxi, etc. I think there isn't one, you seem to imply there is.

They addressed honey, sure, but they never addressed any of my other examples. We therefor must wing them. [Link provided just in case you don't know this slang term. I have no idea if it is even used outside of the US for example.]

[Korn]

That there is a singular, all encompassing definition of veganism which clearly defines leather seat usage in a taxi, etc. I think there isn't one, you seem to imply there is.

As I said: I don't think we will get any further.

I haven't even posted something remotely close to saying that " there is a singular, all encompassing definition of veganism which clearly defines leather seat usage in a taxi".

The definition of vegan says 'as far as practical and possible'.

What 'as far as practical and possible' implies will vary from person to person, but a large number of activities including use of animal products doesn't leave room for interpretation. According to plain common sense, if you eat meat because you're short in time, and the only food available in a distance within 30 seconds was MacDonalds, that meal obviously isn't 'vegan'.

It would be more or less impossible to move around in a non-vegan world and at the same time avoid animal products or stuff that has been produced using animal products. No founder of the vegan movement have suggested that one should live in a cave in order to avoid potential contact with animal products bought by others. Such a twisted interpretation of veganism would only serve to keep people away from being interested in becoming vegans.

It's also possible to avoid lots of animal products not defined as food. Therefore 'veganism isn't about food only' isn't even up for discussion.

In short: even if there's room for individual evaluation of what 'as far as practical and possible', this doesn't mean that use all non-dietary products suddenly are up for discussion. The logical consequence of this is that veganism can't be about diet only.

And - talking about logic... How likely is it that Donald Watson, who stated that "Veganism begins with vegetarianism and then carries it to its most logical conclusion", and who made an effort not to harm earthworms when he was digging in his garden would found a movement that ignored everything but food products, or accept that someone tried to make 'vegan' into a dietary thing only?

Jo Stepaniak is an highly respected author of many books about veganism, incuding The Vegan Sourcebook, which contains a number of details that I haven't seen elsewhere, like eg. info on what kind of weather it was that Sunday in 1944 when 6-7 people met at the Attic Club in Holborn, London, to discuss the formation of a new society.

Here's an excerpt of her response to a question about 'different type of vegans': http://www.vegsource.com/jo/qa/qatypes.htm

(My emphasis)

Q: Can you tell me all the kinds of vegans there are?

A: Hmm, let's see.... There are big, small, old, young, tall, short, gay, straight, thin, fat, single, married, wealthy, poor, Asian, Black, Hispanic, White, brown, "green," Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, Jain, Muslim, agnostic, atheist, democrat, republican, socialist, capitalist, leftist, rightist, liberal, conservative.... Well, you get the picture. There is no one kind of vegan.

The term "vegan" was created in 1944 by a small group of people in England who broke away from the Leicester Vegetarian Society to establish the world's first Vegan Society. Donald Watson coined the actual term by combining the first and last parts of the word "vegetarian" because, as Watson stated, "veganism begins with vegetarianism and carries it through to its logical conclusion." The group championed a totally plant-based diet excluding flesh, fish, fowl, eggs, honey, animals' milk, butter, and cheese. In addition, they opposed the use of animal-based commodities and encouraged the manufacture and use of alternatives. Their mission statement asserted that the elimination of exploitation of any kind is necessary in order to bring about a more reasonable and humane society and emancipate both humans and animals. In 1960, the American Vegan Society was founded in the United States by Jay Dinshah. It fully supported (and continues to support) the precepts of the British Vegan Society, advocating a totally plant based diet and lifestyle free of animal products.

[---]

Contrary to vegetarianism, veganism was founded on deeply held ethical convictions that espouse a dynamic respect for all life. This philosophy unifies vegans everywhere, regardless of superficial differences. Hence, a vegan from one part of the world can relate to and empathize with a vegan from another part of the world despite their disparate culture and language.

There are no such entities as "part-time vegans," "partial vegans," or "dietary vegans." People who merely consume no animal products, including no eggs, animals' milk, or honey are not vegans; they are "total vegetarians." Until one's commitment extends beyond the scope of food, the word "vegan" does not apply, regardless of how the media or certain individuals wish to employ it. Unlike vegetarianism, being vegan does not entail simply what a person does or doesn't eat -- it comprises who a person is.

In her above mentioned book, she quotes Donald Watson from 1944, where he writes that The Vegan Society 'seeks to abolish man's dependence of animals' and that "Whilst honouring the efforts of all who are striving to achieve the emancipation of man and animals, The Vegan Society suggests that results must be limited so long as the exploitation in food and clothing production is ignored". This last sentence alone, from November 1944 text, documents that veganism wasn't focusing on diet only - unless, of course, you eat clothes...


Here's Stepaniak comment about this early 'manifesto':

"This manifesto was especially significant because it called for the abolition of not only all foods of animal origin but of all animal-based commodities as well. Furthermore, it emphasized the moral, spiritual, social, health, and economic advantages of living by humane principles."


Donald Watson passed away, at 95, only 2-3 years ago. He was of course aware that The Vegan Society have had all those statements about veganism being about more than diet, and AFAIK, he never complained.

[Korn]

For the record, when Donald Watson was asked at 93 if he had any message to the millions of people that are now vegan, he answered "Take the broad view of what veganism stands for – something beyond finding a new alternative to scrambled eggs on toast or a new recipe for Christmas cake."

He became a vegetarian at 14 after having seen "animals being pushed through doors alongside butchers' shops to be killed". He also once saw a cow and a calf enter together, and "wondered later which one the butcher killed first". Once, he even watched "a cow being killed at an abattoir in a field where local children were free to watch and where they hoped to be given a bladder to use as a football". He also watched a pig being killed when he visited an uncle's farm.

He became a vegan 18 years later when he learned about the biological mechanics of milk production.

[Mahk]

As I said: I don't think we will get any further.

I'm pretty much done. I obtained closure from harpy's admission:

I do know roughly what you're driving at and think your position is tenable as regards the way the phrase "dietary vegan" should be interpreted.

Those of you who think we should change our words for ignorant people who don't truly know that a vegan, by definition, excludes animal products in more than just their diet, I disagree with, and think you are all being paranoid.

Analogy: "Mahk, you shouldn't say 'you give Christmas gifts' but rather 'you give gifts on December 25th', otherwise people might mistake you for a Christian, instead of an atheist that you are." Nope, not buying that one either.

Jo Stepaniak is an highly respected author of many books about veganism, incuding The Vegan Sourcebook, which contains a number of details that I haven't seen elsewhere, like eg. info on what kind of weather it was that Sunday in 1944 when 6-7 people met at the Attic Club in Holborn, London, to discuss the formation of a new society.

Pfft, "clear, sunny day, blue skies, November 1st." Everyone knows that.

Korn, why the "veganism is more than just diet" lecture? Did I ever say otherwise? NO. If you don't want to allow people to even discuss it, fine, I have no interest personally. But then explain to me why you have a "honey thread", shouldn't you censor that thread too for the exact same reason: "it's not up for discussion"? What if honey/leather sympathizer/agitators sneak in and infiltrate our ranks? Pretty soon we'll all get brain washed and start running back to McDonald's!

[cobweb]

Mahk i think you've got this the wrong way round - i don't think we should change our words for ignorant people, therefore we should use the term vegan to mean what it was always meant to mean from it's conception, and not allow ignorant people to bastardise it.

[Korn]

Korn, why the "veganism is more than just diet" lecture?

Explained already....

But then explain to me why you have a "honey thread", shouldn't you censor that thread too for the exact same reason: "it's not up for discussion"?

It's not up for discussion, but questions about why vegans are against honey are answered in the section called "No animal products - why?" - which again is inside the subforum for people who aren't vegan yet or are in the process of going vegan.

[fruitfly]

I wanted to ask this in the other topic on the subject but could not. I don't really want to discuss the issue, I just want to know, 'Who invented the term "dietary vegan" and when?'.

Think of it like an encyclopedia definition ... what is the earliest record of it that we have?

Thanks. I am thinking about writing an article on the subject.

[pavotrouge]

it's probably something that's just happened, which is the way language works. Someone started to used the term, spread it and other adapted it.

(IMHO it's not a valid experession, anyway.)

[fruitfly]

I appreciate that. It had to be 'someone'. Words don't make themselves. But like for a dictionary, I am trying to find the earliest recorded usage.

By whom, when, about who else?

Also, what proportion of vegans are said to be dietary vegans? How many are there?

[harpy]

Also, what proportion of vegans are said to be dietary vegans?

0% i.e. some of us say "dietary vegans" aren't vegans at all.

[fruitfly]

But how many are there?

[horselesspaul]

So few it doesn't bear using as data, I'll be bound.
You eat vegan food but wear animals and use animal products? Sounds like a diet that will not be adhered to particularly strongly.
In nearly twenty years as a vegan, I've never come across someone who ate a vegan diet but was not a vegan.

[TripWire]

Anyone have a solution for leather in cars?

[horselesspaul]

Don't buy a car with leather seats?
Sorry to sound glib but it's apt.

[Mahk]

I wanted to ask this in the other topic on the subject but could not. I don't really want to discuss the issue, I just want to know, 'Who invented the term "dietary vegan" and when?'

You might want to contact the Vegan Society for your answer. I seem to recall one of their founders, Donald Watson, had some connection to the formation of the word "vegan" (c. 1944) and they actively use the term "dietary vegan" on their current website.

[Ruby Rose]

^ What he said.

Also, I don't think it would be possible to get a number of dietary vegans, as these are likely to be people following a restricted diet for health reasons or to lose weight - so are (a) not going to be registered anywhere and (b) not likely to be doing it permanently.

[VeganLu]

I think that people who eat a totally plant-based diet but are not vegans should call themselves "strict vegetarians". The word "vegan" should not be associated with them. It could easily give out the wrong message about veganism.

As far as ordering food in a restaurant, they should tell the waiter or waitress that they are strict vegetarians, and if they need to clarify it further, say they want their meal to contain no meat, dairy or eggs.

[patientia]

I agree with you, I already call them strict vegetarians.

Here most waiters don't know what a vegan is, so I have to use vegan, strict vegetarian, say what must be excluded, and after that I'm sometimes asked "Do you eat fish?"

[VeganLu]

To Patientia:

What a coincidence that you call them "strict vegetarians" too. Well, today I was reading Being Vegan by Joannne Stepaniak while waiting to see my doctor, and right there on page 5 she answers the question for all of us. You and I were close, but no cigar! As written by JS: "People who just have a plant-based diet are not vegans; they are total vegetarians. Until one's commitment extends beyond the scope of food, the word vegan does not apply, regardless of how the media or certain individuals or groups wish to employ it". Hallelujah!

How I hate when someone asks me if I eat fish after I tell them that I don't eat meat. So I immediately say again "I don't eat meat"; and then they say "But you eat chicken right?", and then for a third time I say "I don't eat meat." It finally registers with the person, but I have to laugh to myself. Better to life than to get angry, right?

By the way, another coincidence happened today. I met a woman who never heard of "vegan" , just like the waiters where you live. I explained what vegan was, and she was very nice and smiled, and said that it was good that I was a vegan. Some non-vegans and meat eating people are so nice to talk to about veganism. The woman made me feel good for the rest of the day. I kept on thinking of how she said it was good that I was a vegan, even though she was not.

[Risker]

^ Strict vegetarian is far more common than total vegetarian. I've seen the term strict vegetarian used regularly but that's the first time I've ever heard total vegetarian.

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php...+vegetarian%22

[patientia]

To Patientia:

What a coincidence that you call them "strict vegetarians" too. Well, today I was reading Being Vegan by Joannne Stepaniak while waiting to see my doctor, and right there on page 5 she answers the question for all of us. You and I were close, but no cigar! As written by JS: "People who just have a plant-based diet are not vegans; they are total vegetarians. Until one's commitment extends beyond the scope of food, the word vegan does not apply, regardless of how the media or certain individuals or groups wish to employ it". Hallelujah!

How I hate when someone asks me if I eat fish after I tell them that I don't eat meat. So I immediately say again "I don't eat meat"; and then they say "But you eat chicken right?", and then for a third time I say "I don't eat meat." It finally registers with the person, but I have to laugh to myself. Better to life than to get angry, right?

By the way, another coincidence happened today. I met a woman who never heard of "vegan" , just like the waiters where you live. I explained what vegan was, and she was very nice and smiled, and said that it was good that I was a vegan. Some non-vegans and meat eating people are so nice to talk to about veganism. The woman made me feel good for the rest of the day. I kept on thinking of how she said it was good that I was a vegan, even though she was not.

I usually explain that fish is meat by definition, it's skeletal muscle tissue (and there are some other definitions that include internal organs, too). I think the problem is that macrobiotics is more common here, and people who follow macrobiotic diet often eat fish, but no milk or eggs.

There are two terms I use in Croatian, one is "strict vegetarian", which I use for people, the other is "completely vegetarian", which I use for food when speaking to waiters that have never heard of veganism.

[VeganLu]

Risker: Well, the majority wins! The website you posted is adorable. "Strict vegetarian" works for me. It was my first choice until I read JS's book (for the 100th time) this morning. As long as strict vegetarians do not refer to themselves as "dietary vegans", then all is okay.

Like RubyDuby posted in another thread last week - "There is only one kind of vegan".

Patientia: Got you! You make very much sense in your using the 2 different terms "strict vegetarian" and "completely vegeterian" when using them for different circumstances. It must be very different in Croatia and the challenges you face as a vegan must be plentiful. I wish you much luck in your compassionate life.

[patientia]

Thanks, VeganLu

[VeganLu]

Hi Risker:

Even though you never heard of "total vegetarian", and me and Patientia lost the "fist fight", try getting a hold of the book "Being Vegan" written by Joanne Stepaniak, who has written many books and cookbooks pertaining to veganism. She has another great book called "The Vegan Sourcebook". I think you will enjoy reading both of these books.

[Risker]

^ Huh? You both used the term strict vegetarian yourselves. I realise that Joannne Stepaniak uses the term "Total Vegetarian" since your mention of it, I'm suggesting that she's in a small minority that does, she may have even coined the term.

[VeganLu]

To Risker:

Don't mind me. You are right. Patientia and I originally said "strict vegetarian".

All is good!

[rxseeeyse]

I think to call those people "having a plant-based diet“ is appropriate, because nothing of their food is animal derived.

[Sweet_pea]

In my opinion I don't care if some one says they're 99% vegan or vegetarian. Either way they are still making a difference. And a lot more than the average person. Being vegan is a challenge and if you're up to it that's awesome but it's wrong to go around on your high horse saying that being vegan is the only right way. Because every one else is making a difference too. =]

[leedsveg]

In my opinion I don't care if some one says they're 99% vegan or vegetarian. Either way they are still making a difference. And a lot more than the average person. Being vegan is a challenge and if you're up to it that's awesome but it's wrong to go around on your high horse saying that being vegan is the only right way. Because every one else is making a difference too. =]

Many years ago, I went out with a Sheffield lass who became 99% virgin. Unfortunately, Sweet_pea, her daddy was not as understanding as you...

lv

[VeganLu]

People who are not vegan should not call themselves "vegan anything". If pertaining to their diet, they should say they are "total vegetarians". Yes, I had a huge discussion over this term somewhere else on the forum, but I saw the light when I was told that "strict vegetarian" was not correct, but "total vegetarian" was, even though both terms could be considered correct.

I know that many people who do not know what being vegan is all about do not intentionally misuse the word "vegan" when they call themselves "dietary vegans". So when someone tells me they are vegan, I ask them right off if they mean their diet, or the whole vegan lifestyle. If they answer "diet", I politely explain to them what being vegan is all about, and that they should refer to themselves as "total vegetarians" and not use the term "vegan" at all.

[superglue]

People who are not vegan should not call themselves "vegan anything". If pertaining to their diet, they should say they are "total vegetarians". Yes, I had a huge discussion over this term somewhere else on the forum, but I saw the light when I was told that "strict vegetarian" was not correct, but "total vegetarian" was, even though both terms could be considered correct.

I know that many people who do not know what being vegan is all about do not intentionally misuse the word "vegan" when they call themselves "dietary vegans". So when someone tells me they are vegan, I ask them right off if they mean their diet, or the whole vegan lifestyle. If they answer "diet", I politely explain to them what being vegan is all about, and that they should refer to themselves as "total vegetarians" and not use the term "vegan" at all.

Hey VeganLu,
How do people respond to your clarification? Is it off-putting? Do they get defensive? Or are they genuinely relieved to learn that they aren't vegans, but rather total vegetarians? I find that I have the tendency to get all pouty when I'm given unsolicited advice or corrected about something without asking if I was wrong. Curious to hear how people react to you?

[VeganLu]

Hi superglue:

I get pretty good responses. I guess it is because I "walk on eggs" and try to be as polite as possible when I explain to them why veganism is a total lifestyle and does not just pertain to diet. I smile when I explain to them that using the word "vegan" out of context (dietary vegan) could misrepresent to others what veganism is all about. However, I quickly tell them that all the food animals are grateful to THEM because they are "total vegetarians". It usually breaks the ice, and quite often they get very interested in where I purchase my clothes that are vegan, as well as other aspects of my veganism.

[leedsveg]

Hi superglue:

I get pretty good responses. I guess it is because I "walk on eggs" and try to be as polite as possible when I explain to them why veganism is a total lifestyle and does not just pertain to diet. I smile when I explain to them that using the word "vegan" out of context (dietary vegan) could misrepresent to others what veganism is all about. However, I quickly tell them that all the food animals are grateful to THEM because they are "total vegetarians". It usually breaks the ice, and quite often they get very interested in where I purchase my clothes that are vegan, as well as other aspects of my veganism.

Well done VeganLu!

leedsveg

[VeganLu]

Thanks Leedsveg.

[Bearshark]

So my friend at work (a vegetarian) today told me that after hearing about me talk about how easy it was to go vegan, he was going to do it too, just for 30 days to try it out. He asked for advice about things to watch out for, and I mentioned something to do with animal testing, and he said "oh no, I'm not worried about that, I'm going to become a dietary vegan" and I swear I started to twitch!
Was a poor choice of his to tell me this, now I'm determined to (quietly and nicely) turn him into an actual vegan I'd never heard the term "dietary vegan" until today, and it doesn't make sense to me, I don't like it!

[harpy]

Terminology aside, though, that's good news, isn't it, Bearshark? I suppose it can seem hard to change everything at once but then once they've successfully changed their diet people often decide to do the job properly.

[Bearshark]

Hell yes it is!! I spent the whole day thinking of all the things I could tell him to watch out for, and telling him what restaurants were really good and things like that.
I also informed him that I was super impressed at him making that choice (I figure encouragement is always nice!) so I'm planning on just asking how it's going every now and then, and if he decides to stay vegan I will figure out a nice and non-pushy way to mention how maybe he could start avoiding other animal products.
But it is certainly good news

[DiaShel]

I'd rather they call themselves strict vegetarians. Seems more appropriate.

Go get him Bearshark! Bring him over to our side.

[Est]

Late to the thread as always!

I don't think the term 'strict vegetarian' is accurate either though - as a vegetarian:

does not eat any meat, poultry, game, fish, shellfish or crustacea, or slaughter by-products.

- The Vegetarian Society. This is obviously a long way from a vegan diet. If I were a waiter/waitress and a customer told me they were a strict vegetarian, I would assume this meant they were strict about sticking to that (no occasional lapses and no exceptions for chicken!)

I personally don't have a problem with the term 'dietary vegan' as it does what it says on the tin: someone who follows a vegan diet but who hasn't made the surrounding ethical choices that would make them a 'vegan'. I don't think 'dietary vegan' dilutes the meaning of 'vegan'. I think it would only do that if a dietary vegan started calling themselves a vegan and dropping the word 'dietary' as that *would* start to create the impression that veganism is just about diet - but that's a different scenario from someone referring to themselves as a dietary vegan with the intention of saying they follow a vegan diet.

However, I respect that on this board the term is not acceptable and won't be using it. In fact, I've never had this issue come up in real life so won't be using it there either!

[Bearshark]

Go get him Bearshark! Bring him over to our side.

I'm gonna give it a try! Unfortunately, someone asked him why he was trying being vegan and he said "for dietary reasons, I don't really care about the animals" which says to me that this may be harder than anticipated....

[DiaShel]

^ Well you'll just have to make him care won't you? Beat him into submission!

[harpy]

I'm gonna give it a try! Unfortunately, someone asked him why he was trying being vegan and he said "for dietary reasons, I don't really care about the animals" which says to me that this may be harder than anticipated....

I shouldn't necessarily take that at face value, as people sometimes say these things if they think it will make them seem more "normal", or they say them because they haven't thought about the subject properly yet.

Anyway, eating a vegan diet for any reason has good results doesn't it? Personally I would just help him with the diet apsect for now and see how things pan out.

[DiaShel]

^ That's a really good point. I got interested in veganism for health reasons and that very quickly changed with just a bit of information.

[aubergine]

^ That's a really good point. I got interested in veganism for health reasons and that very quickly changed with just a bit of information.

Me too.

[Bearshark]

That's a fair call I think it doesn't help that I've become quite opinionated about veganism, I suppress it in real life but on here it tends to pop up
I'm not a very pushy person so to be honest, he probably wouldn't even notice me mentioning animal stuff. At the moment I've just been asking him how it's going and what he had for tea (I'm all about stealing good recipe ideas, and he's apparently a good cook!), so I think I'm going to wait until/if he brings the animal part up, and go from there.

[Eat Y'self Fitter]

I've been thinking about this a lot lately and to the essence of the word Vegan than no one following a plant based diet for some other reason than the idea of Animal rights would not correctly be labeled as a Vegan for definitions sake.

However, lately I've been doing a ton of reading on nutrition this summer and it's quiet scientifically proven that a plant based diet can prevent and cure many diseases. If people finally realize this connection between animal foods and poor health, it'll really start something. If you can't get people to give a damn about animals the least you can do is get them to give a damn about themselves since many people are self-centered. I think if people understand the health values of a plant-based diet, and start dropping the animal foods they'll start to make a lot of connections. Maybe they'll start caring about the environment etc.. etc...

In a way veganism or at the very least a plant based diet is the greatest example of karma I can think of. If you're diet causes a lot of pain, suffering and death, you in turn suffer. However a more peaceful diet, well you know where I'm going.

[harpy]

Yes I agree, EYF. I also think that there are quite a lot of people who aren't 100% happy with using animal products because of the cruelty/exploitation aspect, and/or the environmental aspect, but think they have no alternative because they need to eat them to stay healthy. If you start eating vegan food for whatever reason and find that in fact you feed as good as or better than before, then you may begin questioning that inevitability and decide to try and avoid other forms of exploitation as well.

[VeganLu]

I rather have people become vegan for the animals, but I'll take whatever I can get. But they must understand that vegan is not just about food. I find this to be a problem with so-called vegans. They really are strict vegetarians, not vegan.

[Adena]

I don't really mind what reason people go vegan for, but I think everyone should be educated about what really happens to the animals - because I think it's extremely important, and if I had've known before I found out I would have turned vegan long before I did.
I hate the term "strict vegetarian" - the word "strict" sounds like no fun, no thrills, all rules and only salad-style living.

[Keane]

We pedants are the guardians of the English language