"Semi-veganism"

[Melina]

I think it's pretty ridiculous to put the welfare of animals before the welfare of your own body. This seems to be the mindset of many people on this forum which is why I do not visit it often and am going to leave it altogether. I don't get it. Some of you will not kill a termite because it is ethically wrong (what's next? Are you going to stop taking antibiotics when you have a serious infection because you don't want to kill the poor little defenseless bacteria who have a right to live just like we do?), yet you will continue to pollute your bodies with all kinds of crap like alcohol. Which is slow suicide. As though that is ethically right. Your own body should be your prioriy, for without a healthy vehicle to get around in this life, and a clear mind, you cannot do much productive activist work now can you? Getting drunk on a regular basis is physically not good for you, not for your body nor your mind, not for those who are affected by your behavior while under the influence.

[Korn]

I think it's pretty ridiculous to put the welfare of animals before the welfare of your own body. This seems to be the mindset of many people on this forum which is why I do not visit it often and am going to leave it altogether.

Some twisted kind of 'animal welfare'-thoughts have surprised me lately too, like that person who suggest that humans should spend time, money and energy to go to arctic areas to feed polar bears with vegan food, which of course is not part of being vegan.

Lots of people here don't drink or smoke etc, I hope you don't leave because some people do. Veganism isn't a religion, you know, but a definition of some viewpoints some people share. If it would include a lot of other things than it does, the number of vegans would have been reduced.

By the way, bacteria are not animals, and not fighting harmful bacteria has never been part of being vegan either....

[Melina]

I guess, Korn, I feel I don't belong here because I became a vegan primarily for health reasons. Actually I don't even think I can call myself a vegan because while I do feel strongly about animal rights, I have no problem killing a spider or swatting a mosquito. What matters most to me in life is my health; my physical, mental and spiritual health. I joined this forum hoping to find like-minded people. Most people here are too extreme for me... the whole not killing insects thing is just a bit too much. I guess I belong in a health forum and not a vegan forum.

[Kumem]

I guess, Korn, I feel I don't belong here because I became a vegan primarily for health reasons. Actually I don't even think I can call myself a vegan because while I do feel strongly about animal rights, I have no problem killing a spider or swatting a mosquito. What matters most to me in life is my health; my physical, mental and spiritual health. I joined this forum hoping to find like-minded people. Most people here are too extreme for me... the whole not killing insects thing is just a bit too much. I guess I belong in a health forum and not a vegan forum.

Hi Melina

I can see that it must be quite difficult for you here because of the reasons that you have stated. I don't agree with your comments regarding alcohol at all, or think that people on here are too extreme. I would have major problems with anyone wanting to kill a spider or mosquito.
It has been mentioned on another area within the forum the whole topic about the word vegan. I wouldn't say you were vegan, but a strict vegetarian. Nonetheless, this place is a sanctuary for me and everyone deserves a sanctuary, where they can talk with like minded people. I hope that you find that sanctuary if you decide to leave.

Liz

[Korn]

Let me add that we have a Health forum, and people on a vegan diet are welcome here as long as they accept that this is not a place to attack vegan viewpoints. We have users who are not vegans. They are active in health discussions, but thankfully see no reason to start a discussion about why they are not vegans every now and then or spend any time at all on attacking veganism.

Maybe human beings have a really strong demand for 'like-minded-ness'. I have friends who drink alcohol, but personally I don't (but that has nothing to do with veganism. I don't even like the taste). It's a bit... strange to see that another member who also is into eating plant based food find that a forum I'm running is missing 'like-minded-ness. The vegan movement has no 'official' viewpoints on alcohol.

Veganism isn't more 'extreme' than not drinking alcohol.

I have the feeling that some trolls log in here only to make veganism appear as something weird and extreme. If the result is that people are leaving because of a few extreme viewpoints that has nothing to do with veganism, these trolls have succeeded.

It's hard for me to understand that one person on a plant based diet doesn't want to communicate with another person on a plant based diet if he is against killing insects... maybe I misunderstand something here?

About a year ago, it seemed like every user who registered and were living on a plant based diet but didn't consider themselves vegans, felt a bit 'guilty' about it (or whatever), and needed to explain themselves.

After we added the 'I'm living on a plant based diet' to the registering procedure, people seem both to understand that it's OK to participate here even if you're not a 'perfect vegan', AND that this is not a place to try to attack vegan values or convert veganism into something else than it is. Most of the time, things work very well....

[Melina]

I'm curious Korn, how you'd classify me... do you think I am a strict vegetarian? (I feel like we're off topic here and should be discussing this in another thread but anyhoo..), I follow a strict plant-based diet, II am making the change to all natural, cruelty-free products (shampoos, soaps, toothpastes, deos, cosmetics, etc...), I am strongly against factory-farming and animal testing, I am passionate about the environment, rain-forest protection, animal conservation... I feel humans are not superior to other anmials (cows, pigs, sheep, chickens, rabbits, monkeys, fish) and have no right to torture, exploit or kill them. I have decided not to buy any more leather products, and not to go fishing anymore. BUT, when it comes to insects, I have a problem equating a cockroach with a goat. I see cockroaches, ants, termites, etc as pests, and really feel no guilt when I squash them. When my cat had fleas, I had no problem killing them. And honestly if I had a rat infestation in my home, I would get the rat poison. So do "perfect vegans" allow their appartments to become infested with roaches and vermin and their pets to suffer with fleas? That is where I have a problem with veganism. I did not mean to attack your views/beliefs, I just get frustrated because I think I am more than just a strict vegetarian, yet I cannot call myself a vegan. What am I?

[Kumem]

I'm curious Korn, how you'd classify me... do you think I am a strict vegetarian? (I feel like we're off topic here and should be discussing this in another thread but anyhoo..), I follow a strict plant-based diet, II am making the change to all natural, cruelty-free products (shampoos, soaps, toothpastes, deos, cosmetics, etc...), I am strongly against factory-farming and animal testing, I am passionate about the environment, rain-forest protection, animal conservation... I feel humans are not superior to other anmials (cows, pigs, sheep, chickens, rabbits, monkeys, fish) and have no right to torture, exploit or kill them. I have decided not to buy any more leather products, and not to go fishing anymore. BUT, when it comes to insects, I have a problem equating a cockroach with a goat. I see cockroaches, ants, termites, etc as pests, and really feel no guilt when I squash them. When my cat had fleas, I had no problem killing them. And honestly if I had a rat infestation in my home, I would get the rat poison. So do "perfect vegans" allow their appartments to become infested with roaches and vermin and their pets to suffer with fleas? That is where I have a problem with veganism. I did not mean to attack your views/beliefs, I just get frustrated because I think I am more than just a strict vegetarian, yet I cannot call myself a vegan. What am I?

What makes you so special though that you can take the life of anything? Everything else that you have said would suggest that you a compassionate person. I can't believe that someone would get rat poison out. I know a lot of people with pet rats. They are extremely clean, intelligent social animals. You could use humane traps. Most pet owners do not have to worry about fleas, because they take measures to protect against flea infestations.
I don't particularly love all insects, but that doesn't give me the right to choose whether they live or die.
I almost can't believe what you said about rat poison. That is truly shocking.

[sugarmouse]

What makes you so special though that you can take the life of anything? Everything else that you have said would suggest that you a compassionate person. I can't believe that someone would get rat poison out. I know a lot of people with pet rats. They are extremely clean, intelligent social animals. You could use humane traps. Most pet owners do not have to worry about fleas, because they take measures to protect against flea infestations.
I don't particularly love all insects, but that doesn't give me the right to choose whether they live or die.
I almost can't believe what you said about rat poison. That is truly shocking.

i totally agree with you kunem..i eat pretty healthy..but i love to party.i wotn swat an insect..what i do with my own body is my decision,but what i do with anyone(thing)elses isnt...i never kill anything intentionally
rats are sweet, intelligent animals.

if you are careful , your house will not have a problem with rat infestation.i will never use the word vermin.

when my boss had a fly killer machine at work,one of those zapper things, i turned it off and put it away when i worked.he didnt say anything to me but if he had, he would have gotten told i did not agree with it and would not woork when it were on.
when my house had an ant problem i felt guilty thinkin i may step on one of them accidently!am i crazy? i dont think i am.but feel free to compliment me lol
i ccannot define you melinda,i am inclined to agree with korn....

[Korn]

I'm curious Korn, how you'd classify me... do you think I am a strict vegetarian? (I feel like we're off topic here and should be discussing this in another thread but anyhoo..)

We are. I'll split this thread later...

I follow a strict plant-based diet, I am making the change to all natural, cruelty-free products (shampoos, soaps, toothpastes, deos, cosmetics, etc...), I am strongly against factory-farming and animal testing, I am passionate about the environment, rain-forest protection, animal conservation... I feel humans are not superior to other anmials (cows, pigs, sheep, chickens, rabbits, monkeys, fish) and have no right to torture, exploit or kill them. I have decided not to buy any more leather products, and not to go fishing anymore.

Sounds like you're more vegan than many other people who call themselves vegans...!

BUT, when it comes to insects, I have a problem equating a cockroach with a goat.

So do I. I have seen insects been killed, drowned in the sea... I could have saved them, and would, if if it was a dog or a cow or a human. I feel more protective, more connected to some animals than other animals, and more connected to some humans than some others. None of them are equal.

Animals cause less harm and trouble than humans than animals, but I'd rather live with other humans than with animals. But I have not killed insects intenitonally since I was a kid (I'm not sure if I ever have, actually), and see no reason to do it. If I see someone who wants to kill an insect, I suggest that I can catch it and remove it for them.

When The Vegan Society was created, they had a long discussion about honey, and decided that being against use of honey was part of being vegan. They wouldn't have had that discussion if there weren't people in that room that would be OK with using honey, I guess.

The vegan movement is proceeding... slowly. One way to speed that up, is to keep insisting that 'vegan' still means 'vegan', if you know what I mean, but to accept that within every group, there will be people with slightly different opinions. Unless you insist that humans SHOULD kill insects, why make a problem out of communicating with people that don't? I don't know you, but we probably have a lot in common. I think it's possible to hang out with, and communicate well with people with different opinions without the need to create specialized forums or organizations or labels for all the small variations that are possible:

Plant eaters against killing insects who eat scallops
Plant eaters pro killing insects who do not drink alcohol
Vegans who don't smoke
Plant eaters who are only into using organic food, and are pro use of alcohol and marihuana
Drunk plant eaters who are pro using honey
I could go on forever....

And honestly if I had a rat infestation in my home, I would get the rat poison.

It's easy to get rid of rats and mice (meaning: get them out of your house)without killing them. Why not use a method that doesn't kill them? It's also cleaner and less risky for humans to do it that way.

I did not mean to attack your views/beliefs, I just get frustrated because I think I am more than just a strict vegetarian, yet I cannot call myself a vegan. What am I?

You are Melina, and seems like a very aware and awake person, and not a person I'd like to push away because of your insect-fetich . Why make it a problem that there are people on this board that are against killing insects, when you share so much with so many of us? Why not enjoy the company here, and forget about the differences.

In the past, we've had a few cases where people seem to agree in almost everything veganism represent, but who seem to be more interested in making the vegan movement agree with them in the things where they have opposing viewpoints, than to ie. spend energy on convincing all the non-vegans they know that they might life in a different way. I might be wrong, but if you and I agree in almost everything, why not communicate with each other in spite of some the few disagreements? Unless you think there is too little killing of insects and rats on this planet, why try to convert vegans into do something else than they do about rats?

I bought a mouse/rat-trap from PETA which works brilliantly, while the guy living next to me had to clean up a bloody mess each time he removed a mouse, risking picking up diseases from the mice. Maybe you don't see anything wrong with killing a mouse, and maybe you would if you ever had a mouse as a pet. But I assume you see nothing wrong with NOT killing mice? The few mice I've caught, got a meal before I took them out in a forest, and they were waving and smiling when I left them! (Now Melina thinks 'OK, Korn is nuts too!)



We could invent many new definitions, but if I were you, I'd stick to those you feel that you have most in common with. There are ways to deal with insects without killing them, but if you prefer to kill them, nobody can stop you. I can easily imagine a dozen or two new definitions/labels for you and many others, but I'm not sure if that is a way to go. 'Semi-vegan' seems pretty appropriate. True/pure/total vegetarian, or just vegetarian seems right too (but of course, not lacto- or lacto/ovo-vegetarian).

There are at least three ways to deal with this:

1) try to change veganism into something else than it is... not a good idea, because the word is finally becoming known and even accepted
2) Use a label, if you need a label, that you feel fits you best
3) Create a new label (btw, 'vegitan' seem pretty close to what you describe.)

If people should only hang out with people with identical opinions, there would be very few organizations, political parties or love relationships. Lets not make life more difficult than it is....

[Korn]

What matters most to me in life is my health; my physical, mental and spiritual health.

Even if most of us may be more concerned with ourselves and conditions in own lives than anything else, this doesn't need to be in conflict with focusing on the lives, health and well-being of others - including animals.

[Korn]

I can't believe that someone would get rat poison out. [...] That is truly shocking.

Kumem, I agree that we have no right to, or need to kill rats. I would never do it, and as you know, that's not only because I think they look cute or can be 'used' as 'pets'. But lets not forget that maybe 95% of all people in the western world think the way Melina does. There are so many people who are OK with killing rats (and eat animals daily), so shock seem to be.... at least, a waste of energy, if nothing else

It's great to have this vegan 'sanctuary', but let's try not to make visitors that doesn't share our viewpoints feel stigmatized. By my standards, the planet is a rather extreme place to live in, and I think ie. Melina agrees in this. Let's save the bug shocks for the big surprises. After all, most people probably find killing rats much more necessary and acceptable than killing animals for food, don't you think?

(Maybe the surprise came from thinking that she was a vegan/against killing animals, and then was pro giving rats poision. Read again: she wrote 'I don't even think I can call myself a vegan').

For various reasons, a number of people believe that veganism is only about food, and we can't blame them; they are not the source of this misunderstanding.

[Melina]

I like everything you said Korn. I guess I've been focusing on the differences I see between myself and others here, rather than the similarities. And no, I don't think you are crazy for releasing that mouse into the woods...
I've been really questioning myself, asking myself what I believe.. do I think I am superior to other forms of life? What gives me the right to kill insects? I was not aware that there were humane ways of dealing with rat and mice infestations. I would definitely choose the humane ways of getting rid of pests, over killing. But if I had to choose between living with rats and killing them, I would kill them. Why? Because I have no business crawling into a bear's den to live with the bears (that would get ME killed!)... likewise, I don't want to share my living space with other animals; animals who in a lot of cases carry disease. I've had pet mice AND a pet rat when I was younger. OK they are clean if kept in a well-maintained cage and fed a decent diet but if we are talking about sewer rats who feed on garbage and feces, it is something altogether different.
If I see a spider in my house, or a moth, I will ask my husband to catch it and release it outdoors. I do prefer to release them, than to kill them. I do not intentionally run around killing insects. But if I am being stung by a mosquito, I will swat it, because I don't appreciate a (potentially deadly disease-carrying) creature puncturing my skin and robbing me of my blood. I don't eat other animals or use any animal-derived products. Should I allow them to eat (exploit, use my products, whatever) me!? What gives THEM the right? If insects are invading my home, like ants, or roaches, I will protect my home from them, if that means killing them, so be it. If there is a fly buzzing around my plate of food and continually trying to land on it, I will swat it dead. Why? What gives me the right? Because it's little fly legs have been sitting on dog poop and god knows what else, and I don't want that filth landing on the food I am going to eat.
I am going to focus more on what I have in common with people here, rather than what we disagree on. I still think I am vegan though. Just not as extreme as other vegans on this forum. For me, it's about living a natural lifestyle. I believe humans are naturally herbivores. I try to live according to how I believe humans are meant to live naturally. In nature, if a man would enter a bear's den, and eat it's food, you would not see the bear humanely carry out the man in a little box, feeding it a lovely meal before releasing him happily into a populated area. In nature, acts of compassion just don't happen when an animals territory is invaded by another animal. Animals in the wild will kill other animals who threaten or annoy them. What gives them the right? They are animals. Likewise, human beings are animals. I am pretty sure an animal who is able to scratch itself will kill a lot of annoying bugs every day.

[Korn]

I am going to focus more on what I have in common with people here, rather than what we disagree on. I still think I am vegan though. Just not as extreme as other vegans on this forum. For me, it's about living a natural lifestyle. I believe humans are naturally herbivores. I try to live according to how I believe humans are meant to live naturally. In nature, if a man would enter a bear's den, and eat it's food, you would not see the bear humanely carry out the man in a little box, feeding it a lovely meal before releasing him happily into a populated area.

Oh, you're a bear, on the pic you really look like a woman!

Some animals kill, rape... and some animals don't. Let's not use the 'bad guys' in the animal kingdom as our role models.

Picture this: I'm in a room. In comes a mosquito. If it manage to bite me before I notice, killing it won't help... too late. If I see it before it try to bite me, I can make it go away without killing it.

I have a friend who even just let them bite. In nature, most things make sense, even if it's not always obvious. Maybe one day, someone will prove that a few insect bites a year is all we need to get enough of a certain nutrient that we haven't even discovered. I don't know. But rats, insects or bears are not a problem in my life, and I can guarantee you that no vegans live in houses invaded by rats or mice. Rats might be smart, but I'm smarter. They're easy to get rid of, and a good excuse to get some fresh air in the morning, when they need to be released from PETAs little green traps. Too bad I've only had two mice here so far, I need more fresh air...

[Kumem]

Let's also not forget that insects were around long before we were.
Along with a lot of animals. It is humans who have come onto their territory and I think it is important to respect that.
I am not saying don't humanely get rid of rats etc if you have an infestation, as that would be silly. What I am saying is that a little bit of compassion doesn't go amiss. Pigeons and seagulls are considered pests, but they made their homes in places long before people came along. I just think that the human race, in general, is completely arrogant in their approach to animals/insects etc. Humans come along and industrialise places, build homes around that and then complain when animals are in their 'areas.'
If animals could talk, I'm sure they'd have a lot more to say about people invading their homes, but sadly they can't. I feel that it is my duty, as a vegan, to speak out for them.
Korn, with regards to making Melina feel stigmatised, I think that is unfair. I was offended by some of her comments and feel inclined to offer a counter. I also think that a lot of people are being particularly critical over mine and others' choices to drink alcohol. It is a forum and is to be expected. I wouldn't join a forum if I expected everyone to have the same opinion as me. To read that someone would use rat poison, on a forum like this, is disturbing IMO. I don't care that 95% of the population think like this, I think it is appalling and had to say so

Liz

[Cal]

To read that someone would use rat poison, on a forum like this, is disturbing IMO. I don't care that 95% of the population think like this, I think it is appalling and had to say so

I agree completely Kumem.

This is the one place I do not want to read about cruelty to any animals, even if someone considers them to be a "pest".

[Korn]

I think everybody agrees that being pro use of rat poison has no place in a vegan forum. This is not a place to argue against vegan viewpoints, and this part of the thread is now in the Not A Vegan Yet-area.

We have 1540 members, and, I guess 1540 opinions about when to move/ban/remove/modify members and posts...

I think more people will agree with being vegan if more vegans would remember what they thought and felt before becoming vegans... No matter how good arguments we have or how passionate we are about animals, if we judge people with other views, and forget that most of us come from the same place, there's a great chance they'll just think 'this is too extreme for me', and leave. I'm not saying that it can't be provoking to see others who are ie. arrogant, I'm saying that if we meet one type of arrogance with another type of arrogance, it's very unlikely that any change or communication will happen.

If I make someone feel guilty, I probably only make them dislike me anyway.

I think it's possible both to belong to a small minority, and still remember where we came from - in the sense that we don't judge people who agrees with who we were ** years ago.

Korn, with regards to making Melina feel stigmatised, I think that is unfair. I was offended by some of her comments and feel inclined to offer a counter.

I understand what you mean. What I mean is that if we manage to remember that most people think like that, and don't judge them for it, it's much more likely that they'll understand that ie. rat poison isn't needed.

I also think that a lot of people are being particularly critical over mine and others' choices to drink alcohol. It is a forum and is to be expected.

I haven't read all those posts, but as you say, in a discussion forum, we should expect to meet people who disagree with us and question our thoughts and values (limited by the premises of each forum). If we don't want that, we should avoid the threads that might provoke us.

One difference between a forum like this and real life, is that people say a lot of things to each other that they normally would only *think* if they met each other in real life. That, in itself, can be a provoking experience.

[Korn]

I think 'I am going to focus more on what I have in common with people here, rather than what we disagree on', which you wrote a couple of hours ago, makes more sense. You seem to focus a lot in the insect-issue, which rarely is discussed among vegans at all.

I guess I've been focusing on the differences I see between myself and others here, rather than the similarities.

I agree.

[littleTigercub]

Dear Melina,

I feel exactly the same, and I am glad that someone else addressed int because I probably wouldn`t have. After initially posting a lot, I have slowly retracted - although I have been reading the posts (although not as intensively as at the beginning) I have not written as much myself as I somehow feel that I don`t belong here.

Like you, I always had huge regards for animal welfare but became vegan mainly due to health reasons, seeing the alleviation of animal suffering as an added extra. However, when I touched on this subject I felt that very few people here share my mindset and seem to be very extreme again.

I have not participated in the particular discussion, but, for example, I feel feeding a carnivore pet such as a cat a vegan diet is a crime The welfare of my beloved cat is more important to me than the life of the animals it needs to eat to do well, sorry. As a human being, I can live without animal products if I design my diet carefully, but my cat needs meet and I cannot deny her this. And although I do not kill insects in the house, if my cat ever had fleas or other nasties, be sure that the fleas would have to die rather than giving my cat bother!

This is just one example which particularly bothered me, but altogether I do feel that I am... let`s say, just not dedicated enough a vegan to fit in here.

I have been wondering whether this is maybe me and my initial enthusiasm wearing off, but I don`t think that this is the case. I never intended binning my leather jacket until it is ripped to pieces and the same goes for my shoes, although I do intent to keep my diet as vegan as possible.

I should probably not use the word vegan or "in transition to become vegan" for myself any more, as, in the last few weeks, I have realized on this board that I am not but am, in fact, just a very strict vegetarian.

Well, I can live with that. My ambitions for change were initially diet related only, and I do intend to review my lotions and potions I have in the bathroom. But if anybody will ever suggest to me to rip out my polyester carpets and such - I`m sorry...

littleTigercub

[Nivvie]

I think there's a line we can draw for ourselves between pest and parasite.

A parasite can be more than just a term for a little bug, but life threatening, I spent a big chunk of my childhood in hot nastly countries like Egypt and Saudi, and the bugs there can be life threatening, as can the rabid animals. However, when there is an infestation, there's usually a cause you can find. We had a rat problem, and I'm talking severe problem. They were coming in through the sewer, and so all the rat traps in the world wouldn't have solved the problem, only extensive building work. Many rats were killed, but then there was a risk of rabies, and you don't want that running about your house.

Rats in the UK are over fed. If we didn't leave rubbish, half eaten McD's all over the street and puked up kebabs, they couldn't sustain these numbers.


I don't think many of us would blame someone for protecting their pet from fleas, just as we ourselves would rather not have something delightful like scabies. There is a line between protecting yourself or something you love, and killing. Sometimes it's necessary.
The word pest to me denotes something non-serious. You can fix problems and stop pests getting in, but I think most people understand that problems can become serious, and then you have to do what is necessary to protect yourself. I once had a wasp infestation, work was being done in the house, a nest was disturbed and they came through the holes in the upstairs ceiling. I'm not ashamed to say we called in professional help. There were wasps everywhere. All of us were majorly stung.

However, If it's just a 'pest', and not causing any serious harm, like a lone wasp or mouse, then I'll relocate it. And the likes of spiders are welcome to move in. I have a huge thing up my chimney, but I don't use the fire, and he doesn't leave webs everywhere, so who cares?

[Nivvie]

This is just one example which particularly bothered me, but altogether I do feel that I am... let`s say, just not dedicated enough a vegan to fit in here.

Ahhh, me neither, but I'm too stubborn to go away.

When my mum's dog comes to stay I get her free range meat and eggs, and I still have some leather shoes (My DM's just won't wear out, it's been 10 years already!)
If this forum became populated by only extreme solid 100% fanatical vegans it would go pretty quiet to say the least.

[Melina]

Tigercub, I think feeding carnivorous animals a vegan diet is unacceptable also, just like I think the whole polar bear thing Korn mentioned is a joke. I cannot relate to people who think this way, it is way too extreme for me. It is unnatural. I've been thinking about it. I think I can call myself a healthnut/strict vegetarian who supports animal (but not insect) rights, who lives as naturally as possible and avoids animal products but I am not vegan. It is fine and dandy to stay here and focus on what I have in common with people (rather than what makes me different), but quite frankly I do not feel welcome. I just don't feel I fit in, I don't feel comfortable to be myself and express my opinions here, and when I read about someone's extreme (in my opinion) views about something, I cannot help but roll my eyes and wonder what I am doing here.

[Korn]

I never intended binning my leather jacket until it is ripped to pieces and the same goes for my shoes

Which is just how a lot of vegans seem to think...

But if anybody will ever suggest to me to rip out my polyester carpets and such - I`m sorry...

littleTigercub

Why would someone suggest that?

I think a main dimension that keep people from going vegan, is that - like it or not - veganism, which appear to be the 'perfect' diet, the ultimate lifestyle etc, attracts some sort of neurotic perfectionism. It also attracts - like it or not - people who are into strict rules, limitations, and even self-denial. It's easy to judge veganism on a basis of extreme statements or what people will call extreme ways of dealing with reality. IMO, the problem often has to do with being able to see proportions right... Let me explain:

For example, if an animal weighs 100 kilo, that's 100,000 gram. It's also 100,000,000 mg. B12, for example, is measured in mcg (1mg/1000), so in mcg, this animal would weigh 100,000,000,000 micrograms (mcg).

Now, let's say you eat or buy something that has got 10 mcg of 'something' from that animal in it. Compare this situation with someone who goes hunting and kills that animal. those 10 mcg 'something' in product X is only 1/10,000,000,000th of that animal. Theoretically, you could kill that animal and divide it in tiny parts, and share it between 10,000,000,000 people (except that there are only 6,000,000,000 in the world).

To simplify this a bit, if a vegan behaves as if that 10,000,000,000th of an animal is as important as if he would kill that animal, he is somewhat totally off the track. I haven't met vegans with microgram-obsession myself, but I know that they exist, and for most people, they just give an impression that this person and whatever he represents is pretty extreme.

Because, in a way, eating/using 1 mcg of some animal product, is 1,000,000,000 times less important than eating 1,000,000,000 mcg of the same product.

Of course, vegans want to use animal products as little as possible, but it's impossible to avoid animal them totally. In some situations, the only thing you achieve by avoiding animal products is personal satisfaction, like if you have a product in your house which has been there always, you have paid for it, and it may contain 0.1% something. Throwing that carpet or whatever out of the window won't help any animals, even it may help you feel more 'pure'. Pure is good. The problem starts when some vegans attack other vegans or near-vegans or non-vegans and make them feel guilty about not being pure enough.

I haven't had any cravings for or eaten anything with animal products in it for many years, but if I would do it, I'd make sure I'd enjoy it as much as possible. If I really wanted it, and did it, it won't benefit anyone to do it and feel guilty about it. If I would crave something, eat it, and at the same time feel guilty about it, I'd probably just feel frustrated afterwards, and get new cravings later.

I don't think NOT killing rats or wasps is extreme. I find it a *little* extreme to NOT want to communicate with people you agree in re. a lot of things, if they happen to be against using rat poison or avoid killing bumble-bees. I can't really see what benefits anyone could get by avoiding contact with these people. 'I only want friends who are pro killing insects'... doesn't make sense - to me.

Maybe it's the same perfectionism I mentioned above. If someone feels that they she has changed a lot and are really happy about what she has achieved, maybe meeting people (who may not be 'higher beings' at all, but who) have 'higher ideals' make them feel less happy with their own change and achievement.

If all vegans or near-vegans would get together in our forum every day and just chat with each other all day, others wouldn't have much of a chance to meet us and ask - if they are interested - why we think and do what we think and do.

Some people say they will leave and come back after a while, some seem to agree in everything vegan and disappear, while who haven't registered yet might find our threads really interesting without participating. Some people stay here for a period of time only, which I find perfectly natural and healthy. I believe in letting things flow.

If someone doesn't want to hang out with us because we are not pro killing certain animals, so be it...

[Korn]

I think the whole polar bear thing Korn mentioned is a joke. I cannot relate to people who think this way, it is way too extreme for me. It is unnatural.

We all seem to agree with you - that polar bear thing has nothing to do with veganism. This (along with the fact that that guy already have posted a lot about these things in another thread) is the reason that thread will be closed and soon removed. Some people who only read few posts in that thread might get the impression that veganism has something to do with forcing tigers to live on tofu or to send bananas to the North Pole .

[Kumem]

I don't think NOT killing rats or wasps is extreme. I find it a *little* extreme to NOT want to communicate with people you agree in re. a lot of things, if they happen to be against using rat poison are old style mouse traps. I can't really see what benefits anyone could get by avoiding contact with these people.

If someone doesn't want to hang out with us because we are not pro killing certain animals, so be it...

My sentiments exactly

Liz

[Nivvie]

In some situations, the only thing you achieve by avoiding animal products is personal satisfaction,

Yeah, that's so true.
I've been critisised for using the soap dispenser in public toilets.
Really, how many lives can you save my not washing your hands at a service station?......


And I also agree that not killing 'pests', is not extreme. Lots of omnis use humane traps, relocate rather than execute insects and rodents. It's just a choice amongst many options of how we deal with the world around us, and to not choose the fatal option is very common indeed.

[Melina]

I felt people didn't want the likes of me in their forum because I feel comfortable using the words "pest" and "vermin". I don't stay somewhere where I am not welcome. I would like to communicate with vegans but I did not enjoy the lashing I received after expressing my feelings earlier, I really felt that I was being judged and that it is terrible to feel the way I do, or to be saying those terrible, shocking things on a vegan forum. I'm like, "what's the point of expressing myself if people are just going to be offended".

[Nivvie]

I really felt that I was being judged and that it is terrible to feel the way I do,

*Ahem*

Chances are a few people felt 'judged' by your alcohol comments too.



Thing is, this internet malarky is not personal, we don't really know each other, just the words we type.
Yes, people offend and get offended, but when it leads to healthy debate, it's a good thing.

[Korn]

I understand, and that's why I wrote that thing about judging others.

If a person who 'follow a strict plant-based diet, II am making the change to all natural, cruelty-free products (shampoos, soaps, toothpastes, deos, cosmetics, etc...), I am strongly against factory-farming and animal testing, I am passionate about the environment, rain-forest protection, animal conservation... I feel humans are not superior to other anmials (cows, pigs, sheep, chickens, rabbits, monkeys, fish) and have no right to torture, exploit or kill them. I have decided not to buy any more leather products, and not to go fishing anymore. BUT, when it comes to insects, I have a problem equating a cockroach with a goat.' can't go well along with vegans, or vegans can't go well along with her, the human race have a problem.

This is a place for vegans, but also a place for plant eaters who shut up about their enthusiasm for killing insects and for rat poison.

I'm not surprised that you have no problem with killing rats: kids are being trained to think and feel that killing rats is totally OK, and that their lives have no value, by the way adults, schools and media talk about rats. You're just a little more 'normal' than most of us in here.

I'm still pretty convinced that if you had to kill the rat with your own hands, and not man-made tools, you wouldn't prefer other methods to try to get it out of your house. Humans, unlike meat eating animals, are not created in a way that makes it easy to kill animals at all.

[Kumem]

*Ahem*

Chances are a few people felt 'judged' by your alcohol comments too.



Thing is, this internet malarky is not personal, we don't really know each other, just the words we type.
Yes, people offend and get offended, but when it leads to healthy debate, it's a good thing.

You beat me to it!
I was surprised at the barrage of superiority and hostility coming from some of the non drinkers on here.
Difference is, like you say, I understand that people offend/get offended. It kind of takes a lot to offend me anyway and someone I don't know on a forum has got less chance than most.

Liz

[EcoTribalVegan]

I think I came to this thread a little late. But I´m just going to post what I found mildly humourous. Melina mentioned that she kills these animals because they are considered pests. So I ask you, if a person is being pesky (hence a pest in my view, like yours) I have the right to beat them to a pulp or poison them?

[Artichoke47]

What a joke. Why don't you go judge someone else, Melina? You act like we're extreme, but it's really quite extreme and rude for someone to come on here and repeatedly try to belittle the members and then say they are leaving, only to stay and make more idiotic comments. Don't let the door hit you. I hope one day you care about more than yourself (your own health).

[tasha]

I'm curious Korn, how you'd classify me... do you think I am a strict vegetarian? (I feel like we're off topic here and should be discussing this in another thread but anyhoo..), I follow a strict plant-based diet, II am making the change to all natural, cruelty-free products (shampoos, soaps, toothpastes, deos, cosmetics, etc...), I am strongly against factory-farming and animal testing, I am passionate about the environment, rain-forest protection, animal conservation... I feel humans are not superior to other anmials (cows, pigs, sheep, chickens, rabbits, monkeys, fish) and have no right to torture, exploit or kill them. I have decided not to buy any more leather products, and not to go fishing anymore. BUT, when it comes to insects, I have a problem equating a cockroach with a goat. I see cockroaches, ants, termites, etc as pests, and really feel no guilt when I squash them. When my cat had fleas, I had no problem killing them. And honestly if I had a rat infestation in my home, I would get the rat poison. So do "perfect vegans" allow their appartments to become infested with roaches and vermin and their pets to suffer with fleas? That is where I have a problem with veganism. I did not mean to attack your views/beliefs, I just get frustrated because I think I am more than just a strict vegetarian, yet I cannot call myself a vegan. What am I?

You said you choose veganism for health reasons, but it sounds a bit deeper than just that as you obviously are concerned with the making of the products you buy.
I'm not sure I get why you are so upset, you feel that because some people here on the forum don't kill insects that you should leave??
I don't know who allows their house to become infested with rats or insects on this forum, but if there is someone out there, all the power to them--hey we are all different...I do know that some are concerned with finding a better way to get rid of them without killing them though. Is this why you feel the way you do?? Knowone said that you have to engage in EVERY conversation, if you don't like the topic, don't read or respond to it. Surely you can figure that much out.

Good luck in finding another forum where every single person is like you...it won't happen! (I hope I don't sound rude, that is not my intention)

[Melina]

Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't the fleas on rats responsible for the transmission of the bubonic plague ? Of course rats have a bad rap; they are disease carriers and that is a fact. They did not teach me lies in school, they taught me the truth about rats. They eat garbage and feces and are dirty and spread disease. If a stranger broke into my house who was covered in feces and reeking of garbage and eating my food and spreading their filth around, I'd ask them to leave and if they wouldn't, yes I'd beat them to a pulp.
I am sorry if I judged and offended people with my views about alcohol but you cannot convince me that drinking is a healthy or intelligent thing to do. Too many people die because of alcohol, (or get STD's, or do things they regret afterwards, or kill innocent people when driving) which is an addictive drug. I feel strongly that it has no place in our society, just as cocaine and PCP have no place in our society.
And it is my opinion that to put something which is physiologically detrimental to the body, into the body, conflicts with the vegan belief that to harm an animal is wrong... I mean, a true vegan would not poison another animal, so how do they justify intentionally harming themself by ingesting a poison?
Nivvie do you feel this is a healthy debate? I don't feel too good here, I feel like I'm in an argument that I cannot win.

[tasha]

Your going out on a limb saying that alcohol is a deadly drug. I have seen what alcohol can do to people, but only when it is misused. My mother hates alcohol as it took the life of one of her family members. There is nothing more that I dislike than a drunk. I still have a glass of wine with dinner at least 3 times a week and I'll be damned if you tell me that is harmful.

People overeat as well, which is a killer--but it is not food that is killing, it is the misuse of food (or clearly bad choices).

No one wants to argue with you here. If you are going to stay, I think you should reply to the forums you are interested in and avoid the ones you feel the need to argue about.

I am here because I love animals, not health reasons, not to save the world, not for a hobby, and certainly not to argue!

I don't agree 100% with "everything" everyone says on here, but I do not judge. If anything, I have learned so much more than what I knew before joining this forum and I thank each and every person.

[Melina]

[QUOTE=Artichoke47] it's really quite extreme and rude for someone to come on here and repeatedly try to belittle the members

How exactly did I do that?

[Melina]

I am making the change to all natural, cruelty-free products (shampoos, soaps, toothpastes, deos, cosmetics, etc...), I am strongly against factory-farming and animal testing, I am passionate about the environment, rain-forest protection, animal conservation...

Ohhh I am so selfish hey Artichoke? Thinking only of myself huh?

[Mozbee]

Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't the fleas on rats responsible for the transmission of the bubonic plague ?

So what!
Few less humans means generally speaking a few less omnis! & perhaps a step-backward for scientific and technological development.

[tasha]

So this furniture salesman went on a business trip to France and he is telling a buddy from home about what happend one night at a cafe.

He says:

A beautiful woman approached me and began speaking french.
As I didn't understand a word, I handed her a paper and pen

She drew a picture of a drink. So I got her a drink.

Then she drew a picture of two people dancing, I knodded and we went dancing.

After dancing the night away, she drew a picture of a four poster bed...

How she knew I was a furniture salesman is beyond me!



There isn't that better than debating

[foxytina_69]

i sometimes feel that way. i have leather/suede products that i got before i was vegan and plan on using them until they arent useable anymore. i also sometimes but very rarely consume honey. (but have been thinking about it alot and dont really like the idea of stealing honey from the bees and killing them. i also have started seeing that insects are living things too, and deserve life.) i got alot of 'guff' about that here before but chose to not speak about it because i realize that different people have different views about things and that to talk about them just causes fights, so why do so. i chose to speak about things that wouldnt cause arguements which i dont particularly like.

ETA: oops, i posted this too late. it was in response to nivvies second comment.

[tasha]

i sometimes feel that way. i have leather/suede products that i got before i was vegan and plan on using them until they arent useable anymore. i also sometimes but very rarely consume honey. (but have been thinking about it alot and dont really like the idea of stealing honey from the bees and killing them. i also have started seeing that insects are living things too, and deserve life.) i got alot of 'guff' about that here before but chose to not speak about it because i realize that different people have different views about things and that to talk about them just causes fights, so why do so. i chose to speak about things that wouldnt cause arguements which i dont particularly like.

I still have lots of leather shoes and I have no intention of throwing them away....that is more dumb than buying the things! I do, unfortunatly have a leather motercycle riding jacket that my hubby bought for me a few years back. I was going to wear it while riding this summer, but now I'm not so sure. I'd feel like a hypocrite wearing it, its so, ah, obvious! Not sure what to do about it. As far as gloves, shoes, wallets, etc. I still have them and continue to use them--I just don't purchase it anymore.

So your not alone, I'm sure lots of people on here still have small leather products that they aquired before chosing a vegan lifestlye. Slowly but surly your house wil be rid of it all as they get replaced!

[John]

Melinda, why are you so offended just because there are people who care more about animals than you do? No one is is forcing you to do anything.

I think that people are more important than animals and I kill blood-sucking insects (although I am trying to stop). However, when people here say that people are not more important than animals and that it is wrong to kill blood-sucking insects, I respect their opinions and acknowledge that they are probably more compassionate than I am.

[Nivvie]

Nivvie do you feel this is a healthy debate? I don't feel too good here, I feel like I'm in an argument that I cannot win.

I was generally speaking about differences leading to debate, and I think if your first post had been about 'undesirable' creatures and if there a ever a reason to kill them, and you would have got a lot of viewpoints.

But, you made the alcohol comment then said you'd poison rats, and got the same response a nuclear engineer would get on a CND forum. You personalised your point and brought emotions into it, and that's when it falls into the argument rather than debate catagory.

Most people here would, in VERY extreme circumstances, call 'pest' control. I once read about a building with such a serious cockroach problem a mother once saw one come out of her newborn baby's mouth! However, most cases aren't severe and there's things you can do that don't involve killing.

Rats may have fleas, and fleas were responsible for the plague, but dogs and cats and people have fleas too.
Plus, no one has said that we should 'save the fleas'. I have never heard or read a vegan slamming the used of anti-parasitic chemicals.

It was the rat killing point that went down like a lead balloon, and you'll notice, it's not that people are totally against killing them in all circumstances, you'll notice I took no flack for my rabid rat comment.

I hope you stay. I waste a fair amount of my life on boards and realise how we can all learn, and with new infomation, we sometimes change our viewpoints, or, we become more sure and firm in our beliefs. Either way, it makes us think and examine ourselves.

[Melina]

People keep asking why I am upset, it's because I felt attacked when I said I would kill and insect or a rat... I felt that I was being looked down upon as some sort of savage with no morals, looked down upon by those holier-than-thou "more compassionate" perfect vegans. I am upset that people are telling me to leave the forum and not let the door hit me. I am upset because people tell me I am making idiodic comments when I am just trying to express my feelings. I feel a lot of hostility from people. That is why I am upset. It's Melina, not Melinda by the way.

[Melina]

Yes I was surprised Nivvie, I really was coming into this with an honest desire to label myself appropriately and nothing more. Like, "OK, this is what I believe, this is where I stand... now what should I call myself?"

[tasha]

People keep asking why I am upset, it's because I felt attacked when I said I would kill and insect or a rat... I felt that I was being looked down upon as some sort of savage with no morals, looked down upon by those holier-than-thou "more compassionate" perfect vegans. I am upset that people are telling me to leave the forum and not let the door hit me. I am upset because people tell me I am making idiodic comments when I am just trying to express my feelings. I feel a lot of hostility from people. That is why I am upset. It's Melina, not Melinda by the way.

Your approach just seems argumentative. Why not end it now? If you'd like to stay on the forum...stay! It is fun and, as I said before, you don't have to agree with everyone--but it is pointless to tell people on a vegan forum that you kill rats, your asking for trouble and I am starting to think that may be what you want. This forum is not to convince anyone that rats should die, diseased or not.

I searched out this vegan forum to find peace of mind in a world full of murder. No one claimed to be perfect, I am a vegan, but far from perfect.

If it is fitness or health you'd like to discuss as far as your vegan diet goes, there are lots of forums that cover those topics, I'm not telling you I think you should leave, just that maybe you would be happier talking to folks who eat healthy but don't neccesarily live the vegan lifestyle in complete form.

You said that you are " looked down upon by those holier-than-thou more compassionate perfect vegans." I think that was just plain ignorant. If anything you sound as though you are trying to prove that you are better.

I hope that is not the case.

If you kill rats and think I'm stupid for drinking wine, just keep it to yourself--that'll make your experience here much better!


Stop complaining and have some fun!! Life is too short.

[ConsciousCuisine]

If it is fitness or health you'd like to discuss as far as your vegan diet goes, there are lots of forums that cover those topics, I'm not telling you I think you should leave, just that maybe you would be happier talking to folks who eat healthy but don't neccesarily live the vegan lifestyle in complete form.

Or, talk to those who embrace the entire vegan lifestyle but are content to chat about health, fitness and wellness non-stop!

Melina, it seems to me you are as vegan as you choose to be (certainly as vegan as most can claim) and it works for you. Kudos! Keep it up and please stay to chat with those who share some of the same views you do...and even those who may not

[terrace max]

I don't have a degree in empathy but I think at least one party to this debate has probably had enough points scored against her now?

I think Melina is wrong about 'pests' but it doesn't bring veganism into disrepute to discuss it. If you are more convinced that she's wrong and she's more convinced that she's right then isn't that win-win? Presumably dialogue is the whole point of this forum?

Melina - if you're still there - I hope you stay. Every community benefits from different perspectives.

[tasha]

I don't have a degree in empathy but I think at least one party to this debate has probably had enough points scored against her now?

I think Melina is wrong about 'pests' but it doesn't bring veganism into disrepute to discuss it. If you are more convinced that she's wrong and she's more convinced that she's right then isn't that win-win? Presumably dialogue is the whole point of this forum?

Melina - if you're still there - I hope you stay. Every community benefits from different perspectives.

Thats why I think this discussion should come to an end and we all, including Melina, should get chatting about other, more interesting fun things, this is getting dull

And of course you should stay Melina, just wash your hands of this foolishness and post a health question, talk about cute little piggies, or share a yummy vegan recipe!

[Mystic]

Tigercub, I think feeding carnivorous animals a vegan diet is unacceptable also, just like I think the whole polar bear thing Korn mentioned is a joke. I cannot relate to people who think this way, it is way too extreme for me. It is unnatural. I've been thinking about it. I think I can call myself a healthnut/strict vegetarian who supports animal (but not insect) rights, who lives as naturally as possible and avoids animal products but I am not vegan. It is fine and dandy to stay here and focus on what I have in common with people (rather than what makes me different), but quite frankly I do not feel welcome. I just don't feel I fit in, I don't feel comfortable to be myself and express my opinions here, and when I read about someone's extreme (in my opinion) views about something, I cannot help but roll my eyes and wonder what I am doing here.

I feed my dog a carnivourous diet - a lot of the time it is vegetarian/vegan, but I would never rob him of meat. He is a dog and he was born to eat meat.

Melina, I HATE insects and I have always considered myself to be vegan. I was recently bitten by a spider, and then I got my house "exterminated". I felt extremely "unvegan" in doing so, but I was scared for my health.

I can relate to you too - but everyone is different and we all need accept that there are different degrees of veganism and we are all making a difference somehow.

I am sure that there are some people here that you can relate to , and some people you can't. That is like everyone else here.

[Artichoke47]

Banana, what kind of animals ("meat") would your dog eat in the wild?