"Semi-veganism"

[Mystic]

Look at this link
...and this link

You cannot question that wild dogs eat meat, and while I am aware that my dog is not wild, I am not prepared to not feed him meat just in case although I am aware that a lot of dogs reportedly thrive on a vegetarian diet, and even a vegan diet. I am yet to witness this with my own eyes. I don't feed him much meat - maybe every two weeks he will get some, but I don't feel I need to justify myself because I love him, and I am doing what I am comfortable doing, not what every other vegan thinks I should.

[Artichoke47]

What makes you think that this meat you give your dog is what is making him thrive and that he could not thrive without it? Why prevent yourself from witnessing it with your own eyes?

[Mystic]

What makes you think that this meat you give your dog is what is making him thrive and that he could not thrive without it? Why prevent yourself from witnessing it with your own eyes?

B12 is one concern, but like I said before, I don't feel I need to justify myself. That is just the way I feel and I am not prepared to say anymore as many people, such as yourself disagree. That is fine by me if people disagree, but I don't want to offend anyone. I think this is exactly what Melina was talking about.

[tasha]

I would not argue that a dog is not carnivorous by nature, it is obvious when you look at their teeth! They have to be carnivours !

However, a dog, unlike a cat, can live a healthy life as a vegetarian. Just look at Bramble the doggy!
http://www.dogsinthenews.com/issues/...es/020918a.htm

I see nothing wrong with raising a dog on a veggie diet, though I'm not convinced one could do so with a cat. Their make up is completly different from that of a dog, and they will just go out and catch a bird salad anyway.

[Artichoke47]

B12 is one concern, but like I said before, I don't feel I need to justify myself. That is just the way I feel and I am not prepared to say anymore as many people, such as yourself disagree. That is fine by me if people disagree, but I don't want to offend anyone. I think this is exactly what Melina was talking about.

I wasn't asking you to justify yourself; I was asking you to explain/answer my questions. I am not evaluating you here.

[Artichoke47]

However, a dog, unlike a cat, can live a healthy life as a vegetarian.

Might want to watch comments such as those. Would you like to see pictures of my healthy, energetic cats who haven't had animal products for a month and have been on mostly animal-product-free food for over a year (and six months for the younger one)?

[foxytina_69]

who cares if banana feeds her dog meat. she didnt say it to start a big debate about it people should worry about what their own cats/dogs are eating, not someone elses. my dogs eat animal products aswell because i do not feel that i am 'armed' with enough information about pets and veggie diets to be feeding mine that way right now. let it go.

[tasha]

Might want to watch comments such as those. Would you like to see pictures of my healthy, energetic cats who haven't had animal products for a month and have been on mostly animal-product-free food for over a year (and six months for the younger one)?

Uh, oh...Stirring the pot...Are you gonna send a clown to my house (please don't, I HATE clowns)

I've just never heard of a vegan cat living a long healthy life....yet.

I never said that I was right, there is no proof. I suppose I haven't read any convincing material covering vegetarian cats. However, I have read about and seen many doggies that have lived to be 17-19 years old and never touched meat.

I hope that you are right about cats.

[tasha]

Personally, I don't have cats or dogs; we have skinny pigs.

My mom has a dog and she would eat a bottle of vitamins, a lobster claw, or a leaf if presented to her. I like to call her an everythingtarin.

[FR]

FTR, I do not look at insects as pests just as I do not look at other animals as pests. I think insects are for the most part beautiful creatures.

[FR]

I hope that you are right about cats.

She is. Cats can thrive on a vegan diet with food that is fortified with synthetic Taurine. Synthetic Taurine is added to conventional, animal based cat food just like it is added to vegan cat food as it is an essential amino acid that cats need. Cats are definitely carnivorous by nature, but if you have indoor cats, they are not living in their natural environment, thus cannot consume their natural diet. Last time I checked, conventional animal based cat food does not contain the animals that a cat would naturally hunt anyway.

[Cal]

who cares if banana feeds her dog meat

Possibly some people on this forum think about this quite a lot, including, perhaps, Banana herself:

I am thinking of making Odi predominantly vegetarian ....

[Mystic]

Possibly some people on this forum think about this quite a lot, including, perhaps, Banana herself:

Yes, I do think about it - I don't enjoy buying animal products for any purpose, however I feel uncomfortable not giving them to Odi. I do feed him a predominantly vegetarian diet - predominantly being the key word. He get's free range organic eggs, free range meats and organic dairy (yoghurt) often enough that I am satisfied he is getting B12. I won't supplement his diet or give him nutritional yeast, as yeast is not good for dogs. I feel that I am doing my best as a vegan and I don't apologise for that.

[Nivvie]

This is a difficult issue. We haven't been feeding dogs soya for long, we don't know the long term effects, and there are already some frightening results coming to light.
Dogs can only process about 50% of the protein from soya, which means rather like with people on the Atkins diet, there is a lot of protein waste for the kidneys to deal with.

Soya has to be processed to remove growth inhibitors before it is fed to some animals, and it has been shown to increase incidences of cancer.
With humans the reverse is true, so I think that tells us it's a natural food for us, but not for them.

Some breeders and vets do advocate the feeding of some soya, as part of a balanced diet, but not as a sole source of protein.

There is also the fact that dogs hunt. I have a friend with a vegan dog that killed rabbits before he was vegan, and still kills them now. Nothing's going to change the fact that when he looks at a bunny, he thinks 'food!'.

[FR]

There is also the fact that dogs hunt. I have a friend with a vegan dog that killed rabbits before he was vegan, and still kills them now. Nothing's going to change the fact that when he looks at a bunny, he thinks 'food!'.

I do not see anything wrong with that. If one chooses to have an omnivorous pet (a dog) or a carnivorous pet (a cat), they need to accept their natural behavior patterns. I advocate feeding pets a vegan diet and at the same time, if they are brought outdoors, they should be allowed to hunt their natural prey (if they actually eat it and not just kill for the heck of it).

I have tried to feed one of my cats vegan food and she did not eat much of it. I do have intentions on trying again. The more cruelty free my buying choices can be, the better.

[DianeVegan]

I can understand many of Melina's points, especially about pests. I was frightened to post in the gardening forum that it's now all out war between me and the slugs (the slugs seem to be winning, for all the slug lovers out there). I became a vegan for environmental reasons first and health/animal welfare second.

I'm also opposed to pet ownership and encouraging an industry that keeps churning out more mouths to feed on an already overpopulated planet. I'm not talking about the rescue pets - thank goodness someone takes them in. I actually feel the same way about children too (what's so special about your genes that you need to add to overpopulation when there are so many children to adopt?) By the way, I'm not "attacking" anyone in particular here - I'm just more concerned about the environment than anyone's desire to reproduce and take even more resources from the earth.

Thanks Melina, I've been wanting to say something about pets and children and you gave me a thread. I will now sit quietly and wait for the vegan police to arrive.

[Melina]

I just wanted to inform everyone here that I am leaving the forum. This will be my last post. I have received some private messages from people saying "Please don't leave... we agree with a lot of what you said...etc". Dianecrna was the only person with with the courage to post on the thread and not just send me a private message. And we all know that she is going to get attacked now, too. I started this thread with a statement that alcohol is a poison. It kills brain cells and is detrimental to the body. This is not a personal belief. It is fact. Having a glass of wine with dinner occasionally is one thing but there was a member who said they really enjoy getting pissed on a regular basis. I cannot see how this person can call themself a vegan when they won't poison an animal but will gladly poison themself. They are an animal. (???) If they want to debate this with me I'm all ears and will be happy to participate in a debate! But I was accused of being judgemental and "repeatedly belittling the members". All I was doing was stating a fact about alcohol and questioning how one can call themself a vegan. That is a valid question. I do not want to start a fight, that is not why I started the thread.
I said that I cannot personally compare a goat to a cockroach and that I have no problem killing insects. For this, I was told to leave the forum and not let the door hit me. In another thread, "alcohol and veganism", I was told that I was INSANE because I chose a vegan lifestyle primarily for health reasons (while making it clear that I strongly support animal rights and environmental issues). It is ok to have a different experience and opinion, but to tell me I am INSANE? I was accused of hi-jacking the forum. Why? Because I said some stuff that people didn't like to hear about alcohol.
The bottom line is, if more people would speak up and stand behind me, I'd stay. It seems only the abusive, fanatical extremists in this forum have the courage to post when a debate gets hot. I am not here to fight. I am here to express myself and learn. I wanted to learn how I should labed/define myself when the only thing separating me from a "true" vegan is my ability to kill bugs without feeling remorse. That was not an invitation to a fight, it was my attempt to grow, learn, discuss, debate. I feel that it is impossible to have a healthy debate here, without a passionate discussion turning into abuse. There is too much closed-mindedness and intolerance here. It is not a healthy environment. What is sad is that you people are driving away vegans, not attracting them to your movement. Goodbye.

[bittersweet]

Actually, I only ever said that the THREAD had been hijacked, since it started as a simple request for Vegan alcoholic beverage information - not an invitation to be attacked by Straight-Edgers and the like (good luck to them in their lives, but why interfere in a thread which was obviously not relevant to them?).

And then she told me to go kill myself (which Korn has since deleted, and my reply to it, which i'm a bit pissed at!)

[terrace max]

I became a vegan for environmental reasons first and health/animal welfare second.

I don't think the environment, health and animal welfare can be arranged in a heirarchy. They are the same thing.

[bittersweet]

just for reference, I received this in a pm from Melina (OK, maybe I started it by sending her one which said good riddance - but she has said she's going several times now, and keeps coming back to tell us how "extreme" and "insane" we are...)

Look you ****en overly-sensitive ignoramous, I understand you are emotionally and mentally sick but I was kidding when I wrote that post yesterday, I can't believe you took me seriously. It is pathetically sad how far you are going with this vegan thing, to feel guilty about ants drowning in a glass of water and feeling like you should kill yourself so a mosquito can have a better life? I've shared this with some friends who laughed like crazy. But truly it is sad how little you think of yourself. You do give vegans a bad name. You would do this forum a huge favour if you'd leave, too.

[Mozbee]

Melina you've been to an extreme with alcohol, I agree yes that its use can lead to a form of addiction, for some but not all, and alcohol is a drug. But I don't understand why you could question someone's vegan-ness if they were a vegan-alcohol drinker simply on the basis that they had chosen to drink it themselves.

If you feel that strongly about alcohol I assume you feel the same way about vegans who smoke, drink excessive amounts of tea and coffee, don't exercise, are overweight etc etc.

You say there's too much intolerance here, yes I know feelings are vented, usually about omnivores, but to the mass of omnis maybe we're just like insignificant cockroaches waiting to be trodden on.

[Artichoke47]

who cares if banana feeds her dog meat. she didnt say it to start a big debate about it people should worry about what their own cats/dogs are eating, not someone elses. my dogs eat animal products aswell because i do not feel that i am 'armed' with enough information about pets and veggie diets to be feeding mine that way right now. let it go.

Do you have enough information that your dog is okay on an omni diet, really? I mean, have you seen how many dogs are overweight and end up with tumors? Seems to me that they aren't being fed properly.

I do care what Banana feeds her dog, and that's why I asked some questions. No need for anyone to get defensive. They were valid questions!

[Nivvie]

Wow.
Talk about drama.

Slightly pointless drama at that.

I think it's a worthwhile subject the whole boundaries of veganism thing, but not like this.

[Mozbee]

PS I've just rescued a lovely big black beetle that was on its back motionless laid on the drainingboard but put right way up on my hand it was fine, and it's feet gave me a little tickle into the bargain! It's now happily outside

[foxytina_69]

Do you have enough information that your dog is okay on an omni diet, really? I mean, have you seen how many dogs are overweight and end up with tumors? Seems to me that they aren't being fed properly.

I do care what Banana feeds her dog, and that's why I asked some questions. No need for anyone to get defensive. They were valid questions!

did i say i had enough information that my dog is okay on an omni diet? no i dont. nor do i have enough that she is okay on a veggie diet either. i am currently in the proccess of reading about it as much as possible, and youll notice some of my posts where she does eat vegan food and also i make her vegan treats. i would love to feed ginger a vegan diet, but i dont have enough knowledge on how to do so, hence why im reading about it often. that is one my goals with her, but i never said once that i had "proof" that she was okay on an omni diet but i feel slightly (not fully) comfortable with feeding her an omni diet at this point in time because that is how she has been fed her whole life. i hope to aquire enough knowledge to change her diet.

also, in response to someones post about animals hunting, my dogs have killed chickens and rabbits before. (it was a horrible experience) but they did it for food (not like they werent getting any!)

[foxytina_69]

PS I've just rescued a lovely big black beetle that was on its back motionless laid on the drainingboard but put right way up on my hand it was fine, and it's feet gave me a little tickle into the bargain! It's now happily outside

its odd that this topic has come up because i just recently started showing compassion towards insects. i dont like it when theyre killed (i wonder if these things happen the furthur u get into veganism, your beliefs and compassion towards living things gets stronger?), i really dislike spiders but i get my boyfriend to remove them often. i also dont like other bugs (i suppose i was taught to think they were "gross) but i have been feeling really compassionate to them lately. (i used to not care if they were killed) i HATE stepping on ants, as they go about their business, and i also believe ALL living things have a right to live, just like we do, and every little insect/animal/person/even cookie! has an effect on the world and what happens and i think if we kill all the bugs, their "purposes" in life were not met, and that screws up the whole fine tuned process of the universe.

ETA:

ps. i didnt say this to upset anyone or say that anyone is "wrong" just to add my own feelings about the subject of insects

[Nivvie]

it's feet gave me a little tickle into the bargain!

That's one hell of a foot fetish you got yourself there!

I once had the crap scared out of my by a HUGE stag beetle. I bought a houseplant at a a garden centre, a big fern thing, and put it in the living room. Later in the evening it started to shake, and this ENORMOUS thing came out. A glass and a piece of card was too small, so I had to use a magazine and a pyrex cassarole dish!
We only had a yard and so I carried it over to the fields to let it go. It got really angry with me.......don't think it had tickling on it's mind....

[harpy]

Stag beetles are great, and getting rare unfortunately. They are a bit alarming when they're flying though.

[Nivvie]

Hehehe....my best scary story involves a scorpion and peeing in the desert....if there's one part of your body you really don't want stung...it was a close escape.

The best thing I witnessed was a camel spider (the size of a small plate) clinging around my dad's leg, locked on tight, eating. Luckily, they inject you (or the camel) and make you numb, so it's scary, but painless as they eat your leg!!

Still, it made me rock hard whn it comes to spiders, I just can't be scared of them.

[Mozbee]

Humans are more scarey than all other sentients - animals, unless they've had human interference are logical creatures, whereas humans can be totally illogical, unpredictable and irrational for no reason.

[EcoTribalVegan]

I can't argue with that. I really do not understand why people like to do damaging drugs like alcohol.

Actually doesn´t some alcohol (within moderation) have health benefits?

[Nivvie]

Yeah, anti-oxidants.
A glass of red wine a day will help protect you against cancer and heart disease. However, any more, and it's cancels out these good points.

[Artichoke47]

Just eat some Concord grapes for the same benefit.

[Nivvie]

That's true, and that way it's safe for pregnant women, but they're pretty hard to get hold of in some places, that's the only problem.

[Mystic]

There is a picture of my cats (allbeit small) in the profile picture section. I can't seem to post a normal-sized photo on this forum, and the profile picture is the largest (300 x 300) that it will allow.

They are very beautiful cats Arti

BTW, If you have any links to vegan dogs and health/vitamins etc, I would greatly appreciate it, as like Foxy, I don't feel like I have enough knowledge on the matter to completely transform Odi's diet.

Also, in response to the post about dogs hunting, Odi regularly pounces at birds and possums and he chases cats. I tell him off for doing so, but he does it instinctively - I have learnt to accept his nature and I love him regardless.

[Artichoke47]

Here is some info that I got from www.vegancats.com:

http://www.helpinganimals.com/h-vegcat-survey.html

http://www.helpinganimals.com/h-vegcat-addendum.html

http://www.helpinganimals.com/h-vegcat-comments.html

Also, my feelings that cats and dogs can thrive as vegans is based on the makers of the vegan food. These people have researched what nutrients the dogs and cats need; these people actually CARE about ALL animals - they won't kill them for food. Logic tells me that I want the people who actually respect the lives of animals providing food for mine, ones who want my cats to live, not just to make a few bucks off a sale.

[essence_uk]

I feel humans are not superior to other anmials (cows, pigs, sheep, chickens, rabbits, monkeys, fish) and have no right to torture, exploit or kill them. I have decided not to buy any more leather products, and not to go fishing anymore. BUT, when it comes to insects, I have a problem equating a cockroach with a goat. I see cockroaches, ants, termites, etc as pests, and really feel no guilt when I squash them.

If you need to be classified then look up "Neo-specieisist" as that may come closest of all.

[essence_uk]

People keep asking why I am upset, it's because I felt attacked when I said I would kill and insect or a rat...

Surely the upset you experience is lesser than a rat feeling his/her insides slowly destroyed by poison in a slow agonising death though? I know which victim has my sympathies here...

[Cal]

From the Guidelines for our Message Board:

15) The Vegan Forum is concerned with keeping the original (and by far, the most common) definition of the word 'vegan' intact, so please don't use our forum to try to change veganism to something else than it is. Veganism is not only about diet, it's about non-harming, non-killing as well.

If a stranger broke into my house who was covered in feces and reeking of garbage and eating my food and spreading their filth around, I'd ask them to leave and if they wouldn't, yes I'd beat them to a pulp .......... I have no problem killing a spider ........if I had a rat infestation in my home, I would get the rat poison.....I cannot call myself a vegan. What am I?

Quite a violent person by the sound of it.

[Korn]

Long post coming up, sorry.....:

I have received some private messages from people saying "Please don't leave... we agree with a lot of what you said...etc". Dianecrna was the only person with with the courage to post on the thread and not just send me a private message.

You seem to have missed both mine and many other posts in here.

I cannot see how this person can call themself a vegan when they won't poison an animal but will gladly poison themself.

And I cannot see how a person can call herself a vegan when they won't poison themselves but will poison an animal...

Sugarmouse wrote: 'what i do with my own body is my decision, but what i do with anyone(thing)elses isnt'. That sums up how many vegans feel.

Veganism is a lot about not taking decisions on behalf on others, not to harm others. Vegan forums are bound to be full of discussions about what is vegan and not, because the definitions of 'vegan' doesn't contain rules about what to do and not in all situations in life. Is it vegan to commit suicide? Can a vegan help and old, sick person who wants to die to end his life? Can he work in a factory that is creating harmful poison that is to be used on humans or animals? What is harm? What is poison? Is it vegan to harm yourself?

All this will be discussed, and there will be disagreements, because there is no vegan bible (and will never be) and no simple definition of harm. Both among vegans and others, discussions like 'Can someone be against pollution, but smoke tobacco?' will continue forever, and people will disagree. A lot. And that's not a problem, as long as people can learn to hang out, enjoy and communicate with people they disagree with. Some people have more problems with that than others.

It doesn't make sense to be fanatically interested in not exposing an animal to poision, but be OK with taking poison, but saying that alcohol is 'poison' isn't part of the definition of a vegan. In general, how to relate to alcohol is not a part of the definition of 'vegan'. This is good, because people who are against killing animals for food etc, can stick together whether they drink or not.

It's also good to have a forum where vegans with different views on ie. alcohol can talk together, if they can do it without having a contest about being the most correct, pure, holy person. It should be easy: just focus on the topic that is being discussed, not on the persons. Avoid 'you're insane if you mean ****'. Focus on discussing 'poison', whatever poison is, not on the people who enjoy what other considers poison.

Attacks, even pseudo-attacks (attacks that are not attacks but feels like attacks for those you talk to) normally create counter-attacks. That's why we have wars, isn't it?

You wrote: 'I cannot see how this person can call themself a vegan when they won't poison an animal but will gladly poison themself. ' Most of us cannot see how you are against using a (in most cases) mild 'poision' like alcohol, but are OK with giving poison to someone else that will kill it immediately. When you register here, you agree that you're against killing animals. You don't have to agree in not drinking alcohol, or eat only organic food, or swear that you are not a truck driver. To me, natural health is closely related to being against harming the environment and myself, but people can go vegan overnight without even ever have thought about all the ways humans harm ourselves or each others. And: people disagree in the possibly bad and good effects of moderate to normal alcohol consumption.

Your initial 'I personally cannot see why anyone who claims to be health-conscious would pour poison down their throats.' would have come out much stronger through if you wouldn't post it in a thread where various people who are not against using alcohol discussed which (alcohol containing) drinks that were vegan and not. It was a 'pseudo-attack', but your views are definitely relevant in a thread about alcohol and vegansim. Normally, explaining why you don't drink would work better then you opening post did.

You wrote that you had no problems with killing an animal, kind of, in a forum for people who are against killing animals. I think you confuse 'disagreements' with attacks. Of course people at a vegan forum not only disagree with you about killing animals, they will also tell you that they are surprised and frustrated that you register here, pretend to be against killing animals, and then say that you're fine with killing (some) animals.

In the beginning of this thread, I supported you in that some vegans seem rather fanatic. Some are arrogant. Some forget that they were heavy meat eaters a little while ago. Some are judgemental.

I think your visit here, including your goodbye, could have been a great wakeup-call for people who treat non-vegans in a way that only push them away from veganism. You seem a little confused, and push people away from veganism yourself, the way you describe what has happened in here. You seem to only want to be part of a community with people who agree with you in everything, who never writes any nonsense. 'Only perfect people, please, or I'll leave!' Almost.

All I was doing was stating a fact about alcohol and questioning how one can call themself a vegan.

First you commented on people who used alcohol, and then you brought in the facts. You did it in a thread where many people not against using alcohol were posting, and you kind of focused as much on these persons as your arguments against using alcohol, which you actually didn't post at all until later in that thread.

I do not want to start a fight, that is not why I started the thread.

If you would have posted why you don't drink, and facts about alcohol, communication would have been a lot easier than if a self-declared non-vegan open by focusing on 'how can you guys call yourself vegan'...

Someone wrote: 'To be "vegan" for HEALTH reasons - wow that's just insane!' It's not insane to be a vegan for health reasons...but 'impossible': It doesn't make sense to be vegan for health reasons only, veganism is pr. definition about more the your own health. One simply cannot be a vegan for health reasons alone, because avoiding animal productsother than in food (example: fur) isn't about being healthy. I also understand that if someone says that something is 'insane', it can be received as an attack, even the writer didn't say that the person in question was 'insane'. She didn't...


You seem to think that this forum and the vegan movement should be more focused on a healthy lifestyle (like avoiding alcohol). The way to contribute to this, IMO, is to be a part of it and share you opinions in a non-judgemental way. When you enter a discussion between people who call themselves vegans and who drink alcohol and your opening post is 'I personally cannot see why anyone who claims to be health-conscious would pour poison down their throats' (that's all you wrote in the first post), of course some of them will be provoked.

Let's just admit that it's difficult not to occasionally provoke each other, even if we agree in almost everything.

I was accused of hi-jacking the forum. Why? Because I said some stuff that people didn't like to hear about alcohol.

No, no. This is a forum for people who agree in veganism, and you defended killing animals a few days ago...

I am not here to fight. I am here to express myself and learn.

In a fight with words, if someone says something that you think is nonsense, or attacks you, the best way to end such a fight IMO is not to attack back on him or her, or to provide more nonsense. When someone wrote 'To be "vegan" for HEALTH reasons - wow that's just insane!', of course you'll feel provoked. Most vegans would never say this. Look at your response:

if there are so many more important things to worry about than just your own body; if your health is not an important issue to you... I have a great idea! Go kill yourself! What a benefit that would be to this overpopulated world! Think of all the waste and garbage you will not produce if you are dead! Think of all the water that you will not consume! The energy, the fossil fuels (you do drive don't you?) oh goodness, think of all the wonderful insects that will not have to die needlessly on your windscreen or under your tires or your feet! And you will not be around to leave dangerous glasses of water lying around that the poor ants might drown in. Consider the nutrients that your rotting corpse will provide countless numbers of future generations of insects, worms and other precious life... what an opportunity! Do all animals, do the environment a great favour! END IT NOW! Don't be so selfish as to keep yourself alive any longer! It does no one any good!
But please do not take anything I have written here seriously. I am insane after all!

... you do the same mistake that you accuse others for. Nonsense make no sense.

If you think that that a site like ours needs more peaceful, non-arrogant vegans, and you are one of them, you contribute to the opposite by leaving. You've had a conflict with a few members here, but we have over 1500 members. The way you present this situation now, is just doing something which according to yourself is not a good idea: you push health aware, tolerant people away from veganism by giving the impression that most people in here are arrogant and judgemental. Luckily, we have almost no posts in here where people tell each other that they are insane or that they should go kill themselves.

I don't know how many of our 62,000 posts you have read, but most people in here are really nice with each other, and most posts are interesting and makes sense. You've just contributed to increasing the number of posts that don't make sense. You are staring at a few things you don't like, and even choose to leave and try to give a bad impression of the whole site now. If you want a more positive vibe in here, more health awareness, less fights (we have very few), less focus on negative comments or details, the solution is to contribute to that. You have contributed to the opposite, lately... Your arrival, and disappearance here would have been a lot more 'elegant' if you would have looked closer at this site, and not been feeding the negativity yourself.

What is sad is that you people are driving away vegans, not attracting them to your movement.

Unfortunately, you have been more active in pushing people away here than most others in here, by judging 1500 people based on statements from a few posts written by a handful of our members.

You may find it sad that none of us are perfect, but I have no problems in in accepting this.
It's sad when people are intolerant or judgemental - it creates the opposite of what they want to achieve.
It's sad if people in some situations are fighting instead of having normal, intelligent communication, which there is a lot of in here. (The definition of fight seem to be 'negative communcaition between people who can't agree in who it was who started the negativity....' )


Right now, I think it's sad that you cant see that you are judging / leaving a site because of a few statements made by a few members representing less than 1% of our members. It's also sad that you are contributing to pushing people away, especially if you can't see this yourself.

You have found a place with a lot of people who agree with you in pretty much all your views on animals, lots of people who don't drink, many people who share your 'I have a problem equating a cockroach with a goat'-views and so on. The place is still not good enough for you, but it is for most others in here, in spite of a number of disagreements.

You may think we are intolerant, but are you 100% sure that a higher degree of tolerance and a higher degree of accepting disagreement on your side wouldn't have solved it all?

[Korn]

I can understand many of Melina's points, especially about pests. I was frightened to post in the gardening forum that it's now all out war between me and the slugs (the slugs seem to be winning, for all the slug lovers out there). I became a vegan for environmental reasons first and health/animal welfare second.

I'm also opposed to pet ownership and encouraging an industry that keeps churning out more mouths to feed on an already overpopulated planet. I'm not talking about the rescue pets - thank goodness someone takes them in. I actually feel the same way about children too (what's so special about your genes that you need to add to overpopulation when there are so many children to adopt?) By the way, I'm not "attacking" anyone in particular here - I'm just more concerned about the environment than anyone's desire to reproduce and take even more resources from the earth.

Thanks Melina, I've been wanting to say something about pets and children and you gave me a thread. I will now sit quietly and wait for the vegan police to arrive.

Hi Diane, please see Are you opposed to pet ownership and this thread about 'the vegan police'

[Melina]

I want to apologize to the members of this forum whom I have offended with my alcohol comments. I admit I was wrong to jump in with my statement "I don't understand how you can pour poison down your throats". I am sorry. It was uncalled for. It was not meant as an attack but I understand what Korn is saying about pseudo-attacks. I was wrong in a lot of ways and I agree with all that you have said Korn. I have learned from this forum that I have a long way to go in order to be able to communicate with others as well as I would like to. I just get so passionate about things, it is difficult to keep a cool head sometimes.
Alcohol nearly cost me my life. If it wasn't for AA, I would not be around today. When I hear people say "if a person chooses to abuse alcohol, that is their fault, their responsibility..." I know first hand that alcoholism is a disease and that when a person is afflicted with this disease, they might want to stop or control their drinking more than anything in the world, but are unable to. I have a hard time to support the alcohol industry because while alcohol is promoted in society as being acceptable and "cool", my father is currently dying of alcohol-related illnesses. Because of his alcoholism, I suffered terribly as a child in a frighteningly abusive home which left me with crippling emotional problems I still struggle with to this day. My brother is an alcoholic. I've been to hell and back because of alcohol. I have seen countless friends and aquaintances suffer horribly because of it in AA, families broken up, suicides, disease, death, etc. So I do feel passionately about it. Yet I admit that taking that passion into a thread where people were discussing brands of vegan alcohol.. was out of place and out of line and for that I am sorry.
You are right that I have judged this forum unfairly. I apologize for that.
Nonsense makes no sense, you are right. I am truly sorry for the way I replied to the "insane" remark.
I was intolerant and judgemental.
I agree that the only way to help make this a more positive, tolerant and friendly place, is by contributing, and by being as positive, tolerant and friendly as possible.
If you'll still have me, I'll stay and do my best.

[harpy]

Sorry to hear about your experiences with alcohol, Melina; I can see why you feel passionately about the subject.

I for one wasn't offended by your statements about alcohol, though I didn't agree with them. As has already been pointed out somewhere, on a forum like this it's important (though sometimes difficult) to distinguish between disagreeing with a viewpoint and attacking, or feeling attacked by, the holder of that viewpoint.

[Nivvie]

Yeah, stay.
I think one of the most valuable facets of the internet is that we can discuss, argue and fight, and learn something about ourselves and each other along the way.

In real life, confrontation rarely works that way.

My family is also blighted by an alcoholic, and it took me a while to see it as anything other than the devil.
What helped me was to marry into a 'normal' family, where people have the odd beer and wine with dinner. The world is full of people who drink responsibly. I couldn't let the minority taint my view of the majority.

[Kumem]

I want to apologize to the members of this forum whom I have offended with my alcohol comments. I admit I was wrong to jump in with my statement "I don't understand how you can pour poison down your throats". I am sorry. It was uncalled for. It was not meant as an attack but I understand what Korn is saying about pseudo-attacks. I was wrong in a lot of ways and I agree with all that you have said Korn. I have learned from this forum that I have a long way to go in order to be able to communicate with others as well as I would like to. I just get so passionate about things, it is difficult to keep a cool head sometimes.
Alcohol nearly cost me my life. If it wasn't for AA, I would not be around today. When I hear people say "if a person chooses to abuse alcohol, that is their fault, their responsibility..." I know first hand that alcoholism is a disease and that when a person is afflicted with this disease, they might want to stop or control their drinking more than anything in the world, but are unable to. I have a hard time to support the alcohol industry because while alcohol is promoted in society as being acceptable and "cool", my father is currently dying of alcohol-related illnesses. Because of his alcoholism, I suffered terribly as a child in a frighteningly abusive home which left me with crippling emotional problems I still struggle with to this day. My brother is an alcoholic. I've been to hell and back because of alcohol. I have seen countless friends and aquaintances suffer horribly because of it in AA, families broken up, suicides, disease, death, etc. So I do feel passionately about it. Yet I admit that taking that passion into a thread where people were discussing brands of vegan alcohol.. was out of place and out of line and for that I am sorry.
You are right that I have judged this forum unfairly. I apologize for that.
Nonsense makes no sense, you are right. I am truly sorry for the way I replied to the "insane" remark.
I was intolerant and judgemental.
I agree that the only way to help make this a more positive, tolerant and friendly place, is by contributing, and by being as positive, tolerant and friendly as possible.
If you'll still have me, I'll stay and do my best.

Hi Melina

Wow I always think it takes such guts to swallow pride and say sorry. Your comments about alcohol make complete sense now; I would probably feel the same as you in your situation. Glad to hear that you have recovered though
I also get quite passionate and find it hard to hold back with comments I make at times; I'm sorry if I contributed to you feeling bad
Glad that you are staying anyway.

Liz

[Mister The Cat]

Melina, I am late to this thread and would have posted earlier had I been online, but I've been busy elsewhere, but I just wanted to say I agree with a lot of what you have posted, and sincerely hope you stay, I think we have a lot in common, which is great for me. I think everyone on here is to be commended, but it is also nice to find someone who is even more on your own wavelength. Please stay, I look forward to hearing more from you.

You make a lot of sense to me and have obviously thought hard about your ideas and beliefs.

Kindest regards
MtC

[Melina]

My family is also blighted by an alcoholic, and it took me a while to see it as anything other than the devil.
What helped me was to marry into a 'normal' family, where people have the odd beer and wine with dinner. The world is full of people who drink responsibly. I couldn't let the minority taint my view of the majority.

My husband is from a "normal" family of social drinkers who drink very responsibly, yet this has not changed my feelings about booze. Maybe with time I'll come to think differently........

[Roxy]

Welcome back Melina. Thanks for sharing your personal experience with us.

[Cal]

OK, alcohol seems to have been covered but here's a plug for the poor old rats.

The July 11 edition of Time Magazine (on stands now) has a positive article headed "Honor Among Beasts. Think altruism, empathy and a sense of fair play are traits only humans possess? Think again."

It opens with a description of the "play bow" dogs do before engaging in mock fights. The magazine spread includes lots of fun photos of dogs in various play-fight postures. Marc Bekoff, an ethologist at the University of Colorado, tells us that dogs playing are also "exchanging an incredible amount of information."

The article lets us know how much things have changed for the better:
"Only a decade or so ago, scientists were arguing vigorously over whether animals had emotions: just because a dog looks sad or a chimp appears to be embarrassed doesn't mean it really is, the sceptics said. That argument is pretty much over. The idea of animal emotion is now accepted as part of mainstream biology."

Given the place rats generally have in society, largely considered vermin worthy of only of extermination and not even included in laws that protect laboratory animals, the following line was welcome:
"And thanks to Bekoff and other researchers, ethologists are also starting to accept the once radical idea that some animals--primarily the social ones such as dogs, chimps, hyenas, monkeys, dolphins, birds and even rats--possess not just raw emotions but also subtler and more sophisticated mental states, including envy, empathy, altruism and a sense of fairness."

[Melina]

Here is something a lot of you evidently missed on page 1 of this thread.

I would definitely choose the humane ways of getting rid of pests, over killing.

I am not a rat-killer. I have never killed a rat. I actually don't think I'd be able to. I would get rid of pests though, by any means necessary, if they had invaded my home and were threatening my health & safety, but like I stated before, I would choose a humane way of getting rid of them, over killing.
However, I don't believe that mosquitos have feelings. I believe they act only on instinct (get blood, suck blood, reproduce), I don't think they are more complex or advanced than that. So what I am saying is that I do believe there are higher and lower forms of life. I think humans are different from animals in the sense that while other animals are driven only by instinct, I believe humans are the only species of animal who can think before they act on instinct, and control their instinctive behavior. That does set us apart in a sense. It doesn't make us better but we are set apart. I do think a rat is a higher form of life than a mosquito. And I believe a dolphin is more advanced than a rat. I think nature allows for mosquitos to be killed at a high rate, because they reproduce at such a high rate. I don't think there is anything wrong with killing a mosquito, but yeah, a rat, it is an intelligent animal and I do believe it has feelings. It would not be easy at all for me to kill a rat.