"Semi-veganism"

[essence_uk]

Here is something a lot of you evidently missed on page 1 of this thread.

I am not a rat-killer. I have never killed a rat. I actually don't think I'd be able to. I would get rid of pests though, by any means necessary, if they had invaded my home and were threatening my health & safety, but like I stated before, I would choose a humane way of getting rid of them, over killing.
However, I don't believe that mosquitos have feelings. I believe they act only on instinct (get blood, suck blood, reproduce), I don't think they are more complex or advanced than that. So what I am saying is that I do believe there are higher and lower forms of life. I think humans are different from animals in the sense that while other animals are driven only by instinct, I believe humans are the only species of animal who can think before they act on instinct, and control their instinctive behavior. That does set us apart in a sense. It doesn't make us better but we are set apart. I do think a rat is a higher form of life than a mosquito. And I believe a dolphin is more advanced than a rat. I think nature allows for mosquitos to be killed at a high rate, because they reproduce at such a high rate. I don't think there is anything wrong with killing a mosquito, but yeah, a rat, it is an intelligent animal and I do believe it has feelings. It would not be easy at all for me to kill a rat.

What you describe is a nightmare grey area for animal advocates though. A hierarchy of non-human animals by grade of sentience or seemingly "How close other animals are to humans" is subject to all sorts of ridicule and abuse. You either respect the right to exist equally for all life or put yourself on a slippery slope to playing into the hands of animal abusing advocates.

[Melina]

So tell me, do you feel guilt every time you go out walking on the street? You are killing countless insects just by LIVING. Do you feel bad about that?

[essence_uk]

So tell me, do you feel guilt every time you go out walking on the street? You are killing countless insects just by LIVING. Do you feel bad about that?

I think we should be mindful of that and avoid any insects we can visually see of course. It's about reducing suffering as much as possible, respecting all creatures rights to exist as no lesser than our own, while accepting we generally have an inbuilt survival instinct to keep living.

[Melina]

Sure you kill them (insects) unintentionally. But if you run over a rabbit or a cat or a dog with your car, (or a human for that matter) you will feel remorse undoubtedly. Even though it was also unintentional. Now if you consider all life equal, why the discrepancy in feeling? If some animal abusing advocate tried to argue with me I would consider it a waste of time and personally would just walk away. To me things are not so black and white, there is nothing I can do about that, I cannot change the way I feel. To me, a mosquito and a lion are different.

[Korn]

To me, a mosquito and a lion are different.

We all agree. This has been discussed earlier, also in this thread....
have you seen the thread about insects?

[Melina]

Yep Korn I was reading through that thread this morning. I also checked out the current version of the board guidelines. I want to thank you for not taking away my posting privilages. I have not followed all those guidelines in previous recent posts!!!!

[Want2BVegan]

I'm glad you stayed Melina!!

I agree with your mosquito comment

As for my carnivorous cat, she will always eat regular meaty cat food, until there is scientific evidence to prove cats are meant to eat a vegan diet. I'm not meant to eat meat, so I don't. She is meant to eat meat, so she does. But due to the fact she is an inside kitty, she isn't able to catch her own....cause if she was outside, she would...and she does eat her prey. (Unfortunatly I have seen it )

As for a heirarchy in the animal world, I do agree that animals and insects have different levels of intellegence. And yes, I would compare it to humans, because that is what I know as a human.....it's difficult not to do that.

Melina, I know you would never kill a rat and neither would I. I saw your quote about finding a humane way of getting them out of your house from the thread on page 1. It's a tough decision, especially with alot of people being brought up to think they are diseased, mean etc....I know in my heart and mind even if they are diseased they are sweet, intelligent, playful animals. I would never think of harming one myself.

I <3 rats

I love this board btw!!! Thanks for having it!

[Mystic]

Melina, out of curiosity are you a honey eater? Bees are an insect (and I don't like them at all btw), and I see you have different levels of compassion for insects and "animals". I have no problem if you do, I am just intersted in people's degrees of veganism.

When you describe people who put their veganism before their health, does this include food too? I mean, what if you felt you needed to eat, for example, fish or goats cheese for some reason - like if your doctor said it was necessary - would you feel bad about doing so, or would you accept that the doctor said it was for your health? Again i am just curious and I have every respect for everyone who is trying to make a difference, no matter how small.

[Melina]

I personally don't even like the taste of honey and I do avoid it. More because I just think it is disgusting, than out of compassion for bees. If my doctor told me I needed to eat an animal product for health reasons, I wouldn't believe him! But anyhow for arguments sake, if I had to eat cheese or fish for health reasons, I would eat the cheese or fish. I would not feel good about it but I am not going to allow myself to be/get sick to prevent a goat or fish from suffering. My health is the most important thing to me. My life is more valuable to me than the life of a goat or a fish.

[Korn]

My health is the most important thing to me. My life is more valuable to me than the life of a goat or a fish.

And I guess your life is more important to you than the life of Mr. ****** ****** from *******, but I still guess you wouldn't kill and eat him for health reasons, right, even if some weird doctor told you to?


Many non-veg*ns seem to get stuck in the 'my life is more valuable to me than the life of an animal (is to me)'-way of looking at things.

Veg*ns include another dimension: 'my health is less important to most other animals/humans than their own life is (to them)', so why should anyone else get killed to make me feel better or improve my health?

This thread is somewhat getting a little surrealistic/theoretical twist. As we know, there's nothing we need from a fish or a goat that we can't get without killing animals.

[Melina]

Even though I care about animal rights, human life is more important to me than animal life. That's the bottom line. Does that mean I can't call myself a vegan?

[Mystic]

Even though I care about animal rights, human life is more important to me than animal life. That's the bottom line. Does that mean I can't call myself a vegan?

Nobody implied that - in fact, I agree. What kind of a vegan would you be if you didn't have self respect?

[Melina]

Yes this discussion is going into a theoretical direction but I believe it has to. For the people who say all life is equal and we all have an equal right to be here and no life is more valuable than another... I really have to question what you would do, in a hypothetical situation such as the following; your child (or wife, or friend, or human stranger..) is being mawled by a wild animal and the only way to save them, is to shoot and kill the wild animal. Would this really be a dilemma for you?

[Mystic]

Hell no

[Kumem]

Yes this discussion is going into a theoretical direction but I believe it has to. For the people who say all life is equal and we all have an equal right to be here and no life is more valuable than another... I really have to question what you would do, in a hypothetical situation such as the following; your child (or wife, or friend, or human stranger..) is being mawled by a wild animal and the only way to save them, is to shoot and kill the wild animal. Would this really be a dilemma for you?

To a certain extent I think a lot of people will feel their own life is more important to them than anyone elses; humans and non humans. I don't think that this is as a result of lack of compassion, but more as a survival instinct. A pig would rather kill a human than be killed etc etc.
However, believing that you are more important is different. I don't think I am more important than anyone or anything, but I would still fight to save my life.
In the hypothetical situation you mention I would shoot and kill the animal and hope someone would do the same for me
By the same token though, if there were no legal constraints, and I saw a human mauling an animal, I would shoot and kill the human without a second thought.
Maybe that is why I should never go to a slaughterhouse
I hope that doesn't make me sound too psychotic

[Melina]

Like I said before, to me it isn't a black/white issue. I feel it is very wrong to kill an animal for vanity (cosmetics) or dietary reasons. Or even certain health reasons.. for instance, non life-threatening, or conditions which are not serious. It is wrong to test on animals if it is not necessary to do so. But if it is a life or death issue... or if an animal has to die for some sort of medical research that will enable paralyzed people to walk again, or cure cancer, then I support that. It is difficult, this grey area. Because where do you draw the lines? Each person would draw the lines in different areas I guess. I am aware of this "slippery slope" and it is a real problem, but I just cannot support the extreme "black-white" position, to say it is wrong in every circumstance to kill an animal.

[Korn]

I really have to question what you would do, in a hypothetical situation such as the following; your child (or wife, or friend, or human stranger..) is being mawled by a wild animal and the only way to save them, is to shoot and kill the wild animal. Would this really be a dilemma for you?

Most people would not only kill an animal, but also kill a human if that was the only way to save the life of their family members.

IMO this isn't about veganism really, it's about what to do in emergency situations. We're in 'would you eat a human if that was the only way to survive after a plane crash'?-land now.

Veganism is simple. Disagreement among members even occur within religions based on huge books containing detailed descriptions of what is considered right and wrong, so of course vegans have similar discussions, since the message is pretty simple. Veganism doesn't come with a 400 page manual.

Please don't make this into a thread about everything related to veganism; we have threads about animal testing, honey, insects etc. already....!

Thanks!

[puffin]

I dont get why you have mentioned you would eat fish/cheese because of health issues, that to me sounds a little odd, when is someone going to say that to you so why point it out.

[harpy]

Someone else asked about goat's cheese and fish; it wasn't Melina who raised the subject.

I don't know about everyone else but I feel this might be a good moment to focus on the similarities between us, rather than the differences.

[Melina]

This is why. It's because I was asked the question.

[puffin]

Someone else asked about goat's cheese and fish; it wasn't Melina who raised the subject.

I don't know about everyone else but I feel this might be a good moment to focus on the similarities between us, rather than the differences.

Sorry i am just finding some of the issues on this thread to be a little pointless, i am not here to start an argument as i can understand both sides of the argument, i just find it hard to agree when people start pointing out pontless arguements about health when it is never going to be said so why say it. And this wasnt targeting anyone as i am not taking side here just having my say like everyone else

[Melina]

I think the reason these hypothetical questions have arisen, is to determine how we value life, ie, human life vs. animal life. I do not think this is pointless debate. I think it applies to veganism.

[Mozbee]

In the plane crash scenario, I'd say eat me!

[Glen]

I think that our feelings and emotions towards subjects are often fuelled by what we have experienced; as well as our own ideas. My Father is an alcoholic, he has never been abusive, yet it has left me feeling as though I don't have a Father figure in my life. But because I haven't has as many bad experiences related to alcohol as you I can't totally condemn it. What I am saying really is that I can totally see where you are coming from.

I agree that alcohol is a poison, and that we probably shouldn't be putting it into our bodies. Unfortunately it is one of those things that is seen acceptable in society and most people do it. As long as this is done responsibly, I can see no problem.

As for the whole insects thing; if you wouldn't care for the life of an insect I personally would not 'class' you as vegan. But that is understandable, as you're reason for being vegan is not based around the welfare on animals. However you are making a huge difference; more than most people and I certainly don't think it is a bad thing, only that everyones views are different

[Mister The Cat]

Yeah, if we were in a plane crash, Heaven forbid, and I died, but you survived, stranded on a snowy mountain somewhere, please by all means feel free to tuck in. If the roles were reversed, I think I'd hold off for as long as possible in the hope that rescue comes quickly, but if not, then for sure, I'd eat you! Survival. If it was a choice between a dead you, or a mountain goat, I'd probably go for the mountain goat, even if you were already dead and it meant killing the goat. Let's hope it never comes to this.

This is an interesting debate.

I don't believe a doctor would tell me that I needed to eat dairy or meat again in order to be healthy, the reality of that being the case is unlikely. In my experience, they have all been impressed with my diet, I guess maybe I am lucky with the doctors I have had (only ever been for general check-ups).

[harpy]

Hmm, I'd eat an already-dead person without any (moral) hesitation in those circs. What harm could it do? I would find it unappetising, but not much more so than a dead goat, and certainly preferable to killing a live goat.

The meat/dairy scenario isn't so hypothetical in that we are currently being urged to eat oily fish for optimum health. However, apart from anything else, I don't think the arguments for doing so are well-established. I read that some of the studies showing the benefits of omega 3 oils were actually done using flax oil, not fish. At least flax oil doesn't come with mercury.

[Melina]

Oh man I think I'd rather die than eat a corpse.. human or otherwise! I don't like to even contemplate it!

[Mozbee]

Oh man I think I'd rather die than eat a corpse.. human or otherwise! I don't like to even contemplate it!

Exactly Melina that's why I started the 'eat me' camp! (you'd get plenty of energy! )

[kriz]

Corpse is corpse to me, human or animal. Disgusting.

[Mister The Cat]

I agree - flesh - YUCK!!! But, if my survival depended on it, I'd do it.

[kriz]

I have re-occuring nightmares that I'm stuck somewhere (a deserted island...in a jail...paralyzed in foreign hospital where no one understands me) and I'm not able to eat anything because they feed me only meat. I probably would starve...maybe even to death. I suspect my conviction is that strong.

[Nivvie]

In the plane crash scenario, I'd say eat me!

Being a vegan, I bet you're packed full of nutrients, so if we're ever marooned, I'll eat you too!


I see only a small difference in eating human flesh than animal, as someone said, corpse is corpse, and if I'm ever in a major survival situation, I'll eat corpse.

[Kumem]

Being a vegan, I bet you're packed full of nutrients, so if we're ever marooned, I'll eat you too!


I see only a small difference in eating human flesh than animal, as someone said, corpse is corpse, and if I'm ever in a major survival situation, I'll eat corpse.

I agree that there's not much difference. I would, however, prefer a dead human to a live goat. The goat and I could have a right feast

[Roxy]

I can't say what I'd do under a circumstance like that. I'd probably be in some sort of state of shock and starvation and dehyration that my brain wouldn't operate as rationally as it would under normal, everyday circumstances.

[Tombstone]

I just read through this thread from start to finish, it took me a while, and provided me with some entertainment.

With regards to it not being vegan to drink alcohol on the basis that it is harmful to an animal (the person drinking it), I don't really agree. If I hang myself tomorrow, and die, I don't think this makes me less vegan. I think of veganism as a way of life that reduces suffering to others. I don't think it is anything to do with yourself. I dislike drunks, and I don't drink myself. I often wonder why people don't just drink grape juice instead of wine or urine instead of lager. Those last bits were jokes.

With regards to what you should call yourself Melina, I think it doesn't matter. Don't aim for a title, just behave how you want to behave. There doesn't need to be a word that applies to you, or anyone else. It doesn't change who you are or what you believe.

(originally posted by Banana):
"What kind of a vegan would you be if you didn't have self respect"

I don't think self-respect is to do with veganism. I can hate myself and think I'm an idiot, yet still avoid all animal products. I am not sure of the connection.

[Ms Gryff V3G4N]

I think that veganism is completely different to self-harming. With alcohol you are only harming yourself and its your own fault, whereas I think that veganism is about not harming clueless and innocent animals for one person's pleasure. I read somewhere that during a meat-eaters lifetime they get eat so many lambs, and chickens and cows etc, isn't that like murdering 100 odd people for no reason?

[VeganJane]

This thread has made me want to stay here. Thanks Korn for being a person of reason. I can't relate to all the anger on the boards. It is no way to convince anyone of anything. I'm new here and the anger has been a turn off. I believe that people should be commended for what they do in their diets that moves towards being a vegan and little steps are just fine and many of us draw our lines differently that does not mean that our heads are not more or less in the same places. Whatever someone does that is responsible for less killing is a good thing.

If every omnivoire family ate vegan one day a week wouldn't that contribute towards shutting down some of the factory farms? I think it would and no one is going to convince any omnivoire to do anything by calling them a crimminal or a murderer! I do realize these forums are for us, but they are also for people trying to be vegan . . . so three cheers for all those who are trying and three cheers for those learning how to get here.

VeganJane

[Ms Gryff V3G4N]

I don't have a problem wiv omnivores, in a way I respect their opinions, but then I feel upset that their opinions harm and kill so many animals. I live in an area where it is very unusual to be a vegetarian. Most people know what the animals go through, but don't care. It's nice to talk to people who share my opinions.

[VeganJane]

It is nice to talk to people who share our opinions. That's one of the reasons I sought out this board. I know a few people who are of similar minds, but not many.

I understand the anger that few people are expressing above. I don't want to be repetitive but ... it's just not going to get us any place. We need more of the world to be like us. We need to help them get that way.

Now that I right this I realize there's more I can be doing . . . I guess it's time to start.

Thanks guys - this helped me!

VeganJane

[WalkingWest]

There is really no answer here other than tolerance.
All people perceive 'reality' different. It's all based on a lifetime of receiving concepts from peers, parents, media, and governments.

No one can possibly have the same 'reality' as another... there are infinite 'realities' out there!!!!

But the fact that there are people out there that have similar 'realities' to ours, is phenominal!!!!!!!
The fact that they happen to be drawn to the same website out of millions is also phenominal!!!
And the fact that we ALL have different 'realities' than that of the mainstream status quo is awesome! (for all beings)

The more we share our 'realities' with eachother, the more similar they will become.

We just have to understand this, and tollerate...

I don't think killing any sentient being/insect is right.... but I used to.... as did most of us did, at one point in our lives..... as do some now.....

Those people are here!!!!! and should be welcomed with open arms, because they feel right here..... Driving them away over topics that WE once thought was right too (such as killing insects)..... doesn't make sense.... to me anyway

No one instantly becomes a 'perfect vegan'. It starts with a feeling, and grows, as we educate ourselves, take in vegan concepts, and alter our reality.
I was once a 'vegan bug killer'. Then they started to fascinate me!!! Now I can't kill one. It just happened.

So let's try to tollerate, and let shit happen!!!

[Ms Gryff V3G4N]

Let me just check, are you saying that people kill animals/insects, and we should just stand back and watch, and hope they'll change their ways?

[Mozbee]

Just incase Korn hasn't put this link in already I thought I would for him

[Yoggy]

Let me just check, are you saying that people kill animals/insects, and we should just stand back and watch, and hope they'll change their ways?

Not "stand back and watch", but "stand beside and lead by example".

For instance, why did you become vegan? Was it because other vegans ganged up on you and insulted you, believing you to be beneath them and deserving of their criticism? I don't think anybody would be inclined to go vegan in such circumstances. People have to figure things out for themselves, and see the error of their ways in their own time, even if it's something you disagree with. The best way to convince someone of your position is to be a good role model and communicate in a nonjudgemental way. Pushing someone to do something because you believe them to be wrong will almost never result in that person agreeing with you and following your lead.

Someone else once said on another thread, "If a vegan is being heavily criticised, it's most likely by another vegan whose principles differ slightly."

[Skajen]

i go out of my way to rescue tiny little spiders and flies. the way i see it is...if you see a life form of any kind dying or injured why would you not take 1min out of your life to rescue it? its just mean to leave it to die when u could save it!

the whole point of choosing not to eat animals is because you go against others beliefs that pigs, sheep, cows etc are "below" us so therefore why can't we extend that same ideology to "lower" life forms like insects etc.

i don't know what that person (sorry can't remember her name) expected coming onto a vegan forum, surely she expected animal lovers.

[Mozbee]

Bare in mind the title of this thread peeps, plus the fact its in the Not a vegan yet? subsection.

[Seaside]

BUT, when it comes to insects, I have a problem equating a cockroach with a goat. I see cockroaches, ants, termites, etc as pests, and really feel no guilt when I squash them. When my cat had fleas, I had no problem killing them. And honestly if I had a rat infestation in my home, I would get the rat poison.

I too have a problem with equating a cockroach with a goat. That's because humans have no business classifying other creatures according to some arbitrary heirarchy. It has never been about equating goats with cockroaches. It is about recognizing that a cockroach's life is as important to it as a goat's life is to the goat, and a human's life is to him or herself. Humans are not here to place value judgements on other living creatures. We are here to live our lives and let them live theirs whenever possible, and in many cases to help them live theirs if necessary, to balance out the deliberate and unecessary harm many of us cause.

[Hemlock]

Got a rat infestation...get a cat. My four take care of all that side of things!
Got unwanted insects, spiders, my husband takes care of all that
If he wasn't around they'd get the yellow pages treatment from me!

[Gliondrach]

Got a rat infestation...get a cat. My four take care of all that side of things!
Got unwanted insects, spiders, my husband takes care of all that
If he wasn't around they'd get the yellow pages treatment from me!

Leave the spiders and they'll eat the insects.

I have an infestation of tiny beetles, about the size of a pinhead. I capture them and put them outside.

[abrennan]

I too have a problem with equating a cockroach with a goat. That's because humans have no business classifying other creatures according to some arbitrary heirarchy. It has never been about equating goats with cockroaches. It is about recognizing that a cockroach's life is as important to it as a goat's life is to the goat, and a human's life is to him or herself. Humans are not here to place value judgements on other living creatures. We are here to live our lives and let them live theirs whenever possible, and in many cases to help them live theirs if necessary, to balance out the deliberate and unecessary harm many of us cause.

Nice post Seaside.

Aren't we so lucky to have found ourselves to be an a postion to decide which forms of life are pests and which are worthy of our compassion. One day some alien may come along and decide that we are a pest infestation!!

[Seaside]

Thank you antony. I have a feeling Mother Earth has already decided we ARE an infestation! But I have often wondered how folks would feel if some really huge aliens arrived, and just started stepping all over us because they didn't even know we were here.