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Thread: Occasional slips and ongoing food cravings

  1. #1

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    Default Occasional slips and ongoing food cravings

    Quote Lilith
    I got put-down on holiday for being vegan by the landlord of the pub who was otherwise a cool guy.



    Me too I'm afraid....It's actually quite a big relief to hear you say that. Over the holiday I just couldn't stand it....I was always the 'awkward' one and as much as we worked round it, I dont think I got the correct balance of nutrients because NEVER in the whole two years of vegetarianism had I looked at meat, forgotten the cruelty for a second and wanted to eat some!! (I didnt of course and felt s*it for thinking that). But then other overwhelming cravings came about.....first chocolate.
    So I found some vegan chocolate in a health food shop and ate loads of that and felt fat. Then I CRAVED eggs andcheese. I ate so much to try and fill the void.....but I gave in one night (about 3 nights ago).........I felt really really sick, and I craved no other food and there were no substitutes at the time, so I had a free range egg. And another. And I no longer feel sick or "craving".
    So I've been 'vegetarian' for the past couple of days and OO the freedom it's given back to me. I want to be vegan so badly but I feel so alone doing it. My friends, family and boyfriend dont really understand, no-one at restaurants etc are accomodating so always feel 'singalled' out and to be honest.......THIS DOESN't DO WONDERS FOR KEEPING THE E-D AT BAY!!
    I treid so hard to b something and just feel like I've failed. I feel like I'm in no-man's land right now. ---undecided. I'll least I'll be sure to never eat meat which is one thing I guess.........
    Last edited by Korn; Aug 7th, 2005 at 08:52 AM. Reason: This thread was made out a post from another thread, in another subfoum

  2. #2
    Seaside
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    Default Re: Why do we get put down???

    Quote Banana
    Read the How do you feel today thread, back a few days/a week or so. I was craving freedom (and dairy) so badly, that I did it. I think it was an important thing for me to do. It was this experience that made me re-think giving myself a label. The label means following rules - and rules are made to be broken. I realised that I just wanted to be me - being me gives me the choice of how I want to live my life, whereas being a vegan commits me to never eating animal products. This makes the food more mysterious and tempting. Now that I am "allowed" to have them in my mind, I find it less appealing. And if you really want to have them, it isn't a crime. Nobody is perfect and as long as you do, to the best of your ability (and that is different for everybody) to reduce the suffering of animals
    I don't understand this. We are all free to be ourselves, whether we call ourselves vegans or not. In being myself, it so happens that the label "vegan" fits me. If, in the process of other people being themselves, the label "vegan" does not fit, they shouldn't use it. I'm not trying to judge anyone, or "police" their veganness, but this is a forum for vegans, and for vegans, using the bodies of animals or the products of those bodies is not an option. Not once a month, not once a year, and not as a "learning experience". There is actually a lot more cruelty involved in the production of dairy "foods" than there is in the slaughtering of animals for their flesh. I sympathise with those who have cravings, which is why I am posting here. I think this is very unfair to those forum members who struggle with cravings every day and don't give in. If a person decides to give themselves permission to give in to a craving every once in a while, the addiction will never end. I am here to say to people struggling with these cravings that, as a 20-year vegan, they will go away. Being a vegan is EASY. There is no sacrifice or struggle once you arrive at a point in which you will consider animals as edible as paper grocery bags. And you will never get there until you stop considering these items as "mysterious and tempting" foods. They are not foods, they are not "chicken periods", or "cow pus". They are the bodies and reproductive materials of animals, and animals are not food.

    It is most certainly not a crime to eat dairy products. But it is not appropriate for people who do not want to call themselves vegan anymore, so that they may consume these products, to post about this in a forum that is supposed to be for vegans.

    Unless we can have a "I'm Not Vegan Anymore" subforum, along with the 'Not a Vegan Yet" one.

  3. #3
    Ratbag Cal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do we get put down???

    I have not posted for a while but I felt that this was an important enough issue to add my support for Seaside's post, regarding Banana's current approach to giving in to cravings:

    Quote Seaside
    There is actually a lot more cruelty involved in the production of dairy "foods" than there is in the slaughtering of animals for their flesh ............ It is most certainly not a crime to eat dairy products. But it is not appropriate for people who do not want to call themselves vegan anymore, so that they may consume these products, to post about this in a forum that is supposed to be for vegans.

    Unless we can have a "I'm Not Vegan Anymore" subforum, along with the 'Not a Vegan Yet" one.
    Banana, as you have said, you are not a vegan. If you regularly give in to cravings for animal products and insist on telling all the committed vegans here about it, you may well need a subforum created just for you.
    A bit rattled

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    hydrophilic tipsy's Avatar
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    Talking Re: Why do we get put down???

    Quote Banana
    Read the How do you feel today thread, back a few days/a week or so. I was craving freedom (and dairy) so badly, that I did it. I think it was an important thing for me to do. It was this experience that made me re-think giving myself a label. The label means following rules - and rules are made to be broken. I realised that I just wanted to be me - being me gives me the choice of how I want to live my life, whereas being a vegan commits me to never eating animal products. This makes the food more mysterious and tempting. Now that I am "allowed" to have them in my mind, I find it less appealing. And if you really want to have them, it isn't a crime. Nobody is perfect and as long as you do, to the best of your ability (and that is different for everybody) to reduce the suffering of animals
    banana-

    the term vegan is not a label unless you want it to be...

    eating animal products is NOT going to free yourself from anything...

    i can almost grasp where in the world you may be coming from, but i think you should take a few steps back, banana, relax, and think about what really matters to you...

    is the "label" vegan really bothering you... or is something else going on in your life right now that is stressing you out??

    it is of course your choice in the end....

    i never call myself vegan....if i tell others that i do not use or consume animal products, and they say "so are you like vegan?"
    ill agree, "yeah, something like that"

    what matters to me are the animals... i do not care about being labled one way or another...

    its really just a word. not a label.
    the aim of life is to live, and to live means to be aware, joyously, dunkenly, serenely, divinely aware.
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  5. #5
    FR
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    Default Re: Why do we get put down???

    Quote Seaside
    I don't understand this. We are all free to be ourselves, whether we call ourselves vegans or not. In being myself, it so happens that the label "vegan" fits me. If, in the process of other people being themselves, the label "vegan" does not fit, they shouldn't use it. I'm not trying to judge anyone, or "police" their veganness, but this is a forum for vegans, and for vegans, using the bodies of animals or the products of those bodies is not an option. Not once a month, not once a year, and not as a "learning experience". There is actually a lot more cruelty involved in the production of dairy "foods" than there is in the slaughtering of animals for their flesh. I sympathise with those who have cravings, which is why I am posting here. I think this is very unfair to those forum members who struggle with cravings every day and don't give in. If a person decides to give themselves permission to give in to a craving every once in a while, the addiction will never end. I am here to say to people struggling with these cravings that, as a 20-year vegan, they will go away. Being a vegan is EASY. There is no sacrifice or struggle once you arrive at a point in which you will consider animals as edible as paper grocery bags. And you will never get there until you stop considering these items as "mysterious and tempting" foods. They are not foods, they are not "chicken periods", or "cow pus". They are the bodies and reproductive materials of animals, and animals are not food.

    It is most certainly not a crime to eat dairy products. But it is not appropriate for people who do not want to call themselves vegan anymore, so that they may consume these products, to post about this in a forum that is supposed to be for vegans.

    Unless we can have a "I'm Not Vegan Anymore" subforum, along with the 'Not a Vegan Yet" one.

    Well said!

  6. #6
    FR
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    Default Re: Why do we get put down???

    Quote Cal

    Banana, as you have said, you are not a vegan. If you regularly give in to cravings for animal products and insist on telling all the committed vegans here about it, you may well need a subforum created just for you.
    I agree. What erks me is when people come on here talking about how nasty certain vegan foods are (for example, soy yogurt and then go on to praise yogurt made from calf food). Are you kidding me? Granted, I haven't had yogurt made from calf food in over twenty years, but I remember it being one horrid experience for my poor tastebuds (and stomach) and it did not even come close to tasting as good as soy yogurt does.

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    Default Re: Why do we get put down???

    Quote FR
    I agree. What erks me is when people come on here talking about how nasty certain vegan foods are (for example, soy yogurt and then go on to praise yogurt made from calf food). Are you kidding me? Granted, I haven't had yogurt made from calf food in over twenty years, but I remember it being one horrid experience for my poor tastebuds (and stomach) and it did not even come close to tasting as good as soy yogurt does.
    Everyone's taste preferences are different. Just because you prefer the taste of soy yogurt over dairy yogurt, why is it wrong for Banana to prefer the taste of the dairy kind? Being vegan doesn't mean that your taste preferences suddenly change to only liking vegan foods. Even though I will never buy chocolate milk again, that doesn't change the fact that I absolutely love the taste of it and hate the taste of all substitutes. Nothing can change that. Criticising Banana's tastes won't make her like soy yogurt either.

    Sometimes when people try to adhere too strictly to rules for too long, they end up feeling deprived, like they are punishing themselves. And that might cause them to rethink their decision for going vegan in the first place, and might make them fall back permanently to their omni habits. Banana mentioned in another thread that her "slip-up" was a valuable lesson in reinforcing her reasons for being vegan. So how can it be a bad thing? Wouldn't it be worse if she had denied herself for so long that eventually she forgot why she was vegan in the first place and permanently went lacto-veggie, or worse? Does her slip-up make her weaker than those who have not given in to their cravings? Of course not. Everyone reacts differently in certain situations, and no one else can claim to know exactly what caused her to slip-up. And now that it's happened, what gives anyone the right to criticise her for mentioning it, a subject pertaining to veganism on a vegan forum, just because it happens to refer to the difficulties of being vegan (and there are some difficulties, even if not everyone has experienced them)?
    "Man can do as he wills, but not will as he wills" - Arthur Schopenhauer

  8. #8
    Seaside
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    This has NOTHING to do with criticising people's tastes, or "weaknesses", or the real reasons for anyone slipping up. If anyone doesn't want to be vegan anymore, there is no judgement going on here about that decision. But THIS IS A FORUM FOR VEGANS. People who are not vegan are welcome to discuss their difficulties in the "Not a Vegan Yet" sub-forum.

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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    I think that FR telling Banana that she must be kidding to say that dairy yogurt tastes better than soy yogurt was a criticism of her taste preferences, which she cannot control. I also think that it was not necessary for FR to embolden the words "calf food", because I don't think anyone here needs to be reminded of what dairy is made from, or made to feel guilty for consuming it after craving it for over a year without giving in.

    You're right, this is a forum for vegans. Is Banana not a vegan anymore because she slipped up for the first time in ages and doesn't plan on doing it again? According to Korn, "vegans avoid animal products as much as possible". I think Banana fits that description as well as anyone here, and doesn't deserve to be told that she's not vegan and needs a separate sub-forum just for her because she made a mistake. That would be like telling a Christian that missing church once, and regretting it afterward, means that they don't deserve to be called Christian anymore. But Banana also said that eating dairy a couple weeks ago has reaffirmed her desire to avoid animal products indefinitely, even if she has decided to drop the label "vegan". And she also said in another thread, "the taste was not worth the real cost". She doesn't plan on doing it again, so why should she be banished to the "not a vegan yet" forum?
    Last edited by Yoggy; Aug 4th, 2005 at 09:15 AM. Reason: clarify a sentence
    "Man can do as he wills, but not will as he wills" - Arthur Schopenhauer

  10. #10
    Seaside
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Quote Banana
    Recently I found veganism to be overwhelming, so I actually have decided to drop the label. I am no longer a 'vegan' - I am me, and I choose to live as cruelty free as possible.
    I think that it is pretty clear that no one else is saying Banana isn't vegan-she is. And there is nothing wrong with this, if being a lacto-vegetarian is the best she can do to reduce animal suffering. She is going a lot further than most. But this forum is a place where vegans should not have to be subjected to explanations of why a person prefers not to be a vegan, or that dairy yogurt is better than soy yogurt, etc., any more than a lacto-vegetarian wants to hear about how much better beef burgers are than veggie burgers.

  11. #11
    Cakeaholic rainbow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    I also think that people are being way too harsh with Banana. One of the reasons why people use a forum like this is for mutual support. Going vegan is not an easy process and not everyone can become a total vegan overnight and stick to it for the rest of their lives. The 'all or nothing' mentality can easily push those who are wavering back to the 'nothing' side. If we can't support each other through difficult moments then what is the point?

    Banana has also mentioned explicitly in many other threads that she is recovering from anorexia. Maybe if you have not experienced an eating disorder then you will not understand the significance of what she did, but having the courage to permit herself to eat a 'banned' food is important psychologically and shows that she is regaining control of her life, even if it amounts to a slip from veganism. As long as she calls herself a vegan, there are 'forbidden' foods, and this has parallels with dangerous anorexic traits. If making those foods available rather than forbidden is the safest way psychologically of addressing them then so be it. Making them available does not mean that she will start eating them all the time, it just means that she is making a positive choice to eat vegan food rather than a negative choice not to eat non-vegan food. Making positive food choices is a vital tool in fully recovering from an eating disorder. Maybe you can only appreciate that if you've been there, and believe me, it's a bad place to be, and makes Banana's choices look positively healthy and sane. I think this is more about attitude to food than attitude to veganism.

    So come on guys, show a little bit more support. Is this forum exclusively for perfect vegans who effortlessly commit themselves 100%, or is it for all those who want to be vegan and are doing their best, even if they find it hard? If the former, then even though I personally am 100% vegan, this is not a place I would want to be. Be compassionate please, not 'holier than thou'.
    Live and let live

  12. #12
    FR
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    Default Re: Why do we get put down???

    Quote Yoggy
    Everyone's taste preferences are different. Just because you prefer the taste of soy yogurt over dairy yogurt, why is it wrong for Banana to prefer the taste of the dairy kind? Being vegan doesn't mean that your taste preferences suddenly change to only liking vegan foods. Even though I will never buy chocolate milk again, that doesn't change the fact that I absolutely love the taste of it and hate the taste of all substitutes. Nothing can change that. Criticising Banana's tastes won't make her like soy yogurt either.

    First of all, I do not look at milk derived from plants as a substitute for anything. I call cow's milk, calf food because that is the most accurate way to describe it. "Milk" sounds too nice, and since there are many different kinds of milk it isn't right to refer to it in that manner, as if it is the only kind.

    My tastes didn't suddenly change when I became vegan when it comes to calf food, I never liked it, probably because it isn't food fit for human consumption in the first place.

    When someone comes on here criticizing the foods I love (and most vegans love) it is like we are being poked in the eye. It is irritating as all hell to hear someone constantly complain about how vegan white chocolate is no where near as good as white chocolate made from calf food, or that soy yogurt is nasty, or that ice cream made from plant sourced ingredients sucks, etc.

    I am not saying she, or anyone who "slips" up isn't vegan if they only do it once, but some of these people are flat out saying they are not vegan. They are the ones calling themselves non-vegans. I for one, on a vegan board do not appreciate reading how good calf food, and products made with it taste. Who cares if they taste good anyway (thank goodness, they don't taste good), when something is derived in such a cruel manner?

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    Yoggy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Quote Seaside
    I think that it is pretty clear that no one else is saying Banana isn't vegan-she is.
    Yes you're right. But she also said that she plans on living as cruelty-free as possible, and "avoiding animal products as much as possible" is the definition of vegan for the purposes of this forum, whether or not Banana chooses to adopt the label "vegan". Many vegans prefer to avoid such a label. That does not make them any less vegan than those who call themselves vegan.

    Quote Seaside
    But this forum is a place where vegans should not have to be subjected to explanations of why a person prefers not to be a vegan, or that dairy yogurt is better than soy yogurt, etc., any more than a lacto-vegetarian wants to hear about how much better beef burgers are than veggie burgers.
    If you feel offended on this forum by a person stating that the dairy version of a food tastes better than the vegan version, then I suggest you avoid the thread entitled "vegan cheese--any good?" because that thread is full of vegans talking about how nasty vegan cheese tastes compared to the dairy kind.

    What do you want to see happen with those who are struggling with their veganism and slip up once every 2 years? Surely you don't want to see them driven away from veganism for good? Supporting someone in a time of need will probably be far more helpful than criticism.
    "Man can do as he wills, but not will as he wills" - Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Default Re: Why do we get put down???

    Quote FR
    I am not saying she, or anyone who "slips" up isn't vegan if they only do it once, but some of these people are flat out saying they are not vegan. They are the ones calling themselves non-vegans. I for one, on a vegan board do not appreciate reading how good calf food, and products made with it taste. Who cares if they taste good anyway (thank goodness, they don't taste good), when something is derived in such a cruel manner?
    I can see how you might be irritated hearing about how good some dairy products taste, but it seemed like you were being overly critical of Banana for having an uncontrollable craving for yogurt (e.g. telling her she must be kidding for liking it better than soy). If she wanted some support to help overcome this difficulty, and she was looking for it from other vegans here on the forum, why should she be told to go away to another subforum? It just doesn't seem like the most helpful response.
    "Man can do as he wills, but not will as he wills" - Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    .

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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Personally, I think its sad that you can't express yourself here in this forum. I just recently joined and have been enjoying the experience thus far, but after I read the incident w/ banana & seaside etc. I am confused and somewhat sad
    To me, being vegan, or whatever word you choose to describe yourself is about who you are- the way you feel about your personal health along w/ your compassion for the living. Veganism is a strong and serious word, but personally, it does not have restrictions or limits in terms of personal preference. Yes it does mean working for better treatment of animals by staying away from animal derived products, but everyone has their own take on each element. Just the action of becoming vegan and abstaining from animal derived foods says something about your dedication and support for animal freedom.
    We are all human, and are all capable of making mistakes. Banana eating yogurt, while not a "vegan" rite of passage, was her way of being HUMAN. That is all we can want for ourselves and for others. I'm not going to live my life saying no no no you cant have that or that. I CHOOSE not to have it b/c I choose life. However, if my anemia takes over one day down the road and I need some heavy B12 I may opt for something nonvegan just once. That doesnt make me a bad person. It makes me a normal human being.
    By getting upset at someone who does slip up occasionally takes you all the way back to where you started. To me, part of being vegan is showing compassion and kindness to others while attempting to make peace w/ others and show how useful veganism can be. Being rude to others about their "once in a lifetime" cravings and mistakes is showing how restrictive and confining your beliefs are.

    I just wish we could all have our own opinions and respect others as well. Promote peace
    Be thankful for this moment, this moment is your life:)

  17. #17
    mike
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Quote Seaside
    I think that it is pretty clear that no one else is saying Banana isn't vegan-she is. .
    I think it's pretty clear that she isn't saying she's not a vegan, she's saying she's not calling herself a vegan anymore because it makes her feel repressive instead of like she's making a willing choice for herself.

    Essentially, nothing's changed (except the slip-up, but that's over) except semantics. She's just trying to feel better about her choices. I wish you would try to understand what people are saying and why. Sigh.

  18. #18
    Mozbee
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Banana, so you had a slight hiccup in your veganism, considering your present surroundings (ie The Vegan Forum) wouldn't it have been better all round to have kept it to yourself?

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    Cakeaholic rainbow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Can anyone see the irony here that all this is on a thread entitled "why do I get put down"? If we can't tolerate each other, no wonder no-one else can tolerate us!
    Live and let live

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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    I don't think that the messages by Seaside or anyone else who thinks along the same line, can be described as rude or disrespectful.

    They simply disagreed with Banana's actions. I expect some would be put out by the suggestion that they are being rude for expressing their opinions. They may also wonder why they have to be respectful towards someone who is doing something they do not respect. I don't think the messages on here have been disparaging towards Banana, but towards her decision to consume dairy and tell people about it.

    I think a lot of vegan's will accidentally slip up, but that is different to intentionally consuming animal products.

    I agree with Seaside that doing so implies that veganism is difficult and it implies you're missing out on something. That will never attract people to it.

    My opinion on this doesn't make me think that Banana is a bad person by any shout of the imagination.

  21. #21
    Seaside
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    You are right, Kumem. No one has tried to say that Banana is a bad person. I said that if being a lacto-vegetarian is the best of her abilities to avoid animal suffering, that is great. But we do not have to hear about here on a vegan forum, in multiple posts, and about other non-vegan thngs she and others have done. This is not an isolated thing, but I am not going to make a list here. But my main point is,

    Asking a self-admitted non-vegan not to post non-vegan thoughts on a vegan forum because it disturbs other vegans is not an attempt to drive anyone away from the vegan movement. This is a FORUM, not the real world.

  22. #22
    Michael Benis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Banana, I agree that labels are boring and limiting, but they do save time even if they can't describe the whole you. They can certainly be a convenient way of stating your preferences or handicaps (I'm English, I'm a biker, I'm an anarchist). They're certainly handy in a restaurant if you want to get what YOU want to eat.

    The social part of being a vegan can be very difficult. No one likes to feel like a constant outsider, but the thing is, if social pressures keep you pretending you are not concerned about certain things - like animal welfare, ecology and your own health - then you are limiting yourself even more than a label could. It's easy to forget who you are.

    And another thing about labels: you can be creative with them, even ironise the way people respond to them. One of my favourite replies to "So, what does that mean, you're a Vegan?" is: "It means I come from the planet Vega, how about you?"

    Cheers

    Mike

  23. #23
    mike
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Quote Seaside
    Asking a self-admitted non-vegan not to post non-vegan thoughts on a vegan forum because it disturbs other vegans is not an attempt to drive anyone away from the vegan movement. This is a FORUM, not the real world.

    To say that she's a self-admitted non-vegan completely misses the point. This is a question of semantics.

    How about letting a self-admitted "makes the choice to avoid all animal products to the best of her ability" admit to a time when she failed, explain what lessons she drew from it, and support others who're having a hard time as well?

    The fact that you can "make a list" (though you benevolently "choose not to") says a lot.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    I completely agree Mike
    Be thankful for this moment, this moment is your life:)

  25. #25
    Michael Benis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    I also agree with Mike (nice name, incidentally).

    I don't know about anyone else, but the combination of protein paranoia (rife in the seventies) and B12 problems with social isolation meant I had quite a few lapses early on. I do know of people who have had no problems making the switch, but many don't and I can't see any reason why we can't discuss this openly - otherwise we simply get a struggling vegan who's being aliented by the normaloids and ostracised by the saints...

    Cheers

    Michael (just to be different)

  26. #26
    mike
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Agreed, Michael.

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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Quote Seaside
    You are right, Kumem. No one has tried to say that Banana is a bad person. I said that if being a lacto-vegetarian is the best of her abilities to avoid animal suffering, that is great. But we do not have to hear about here on a vegan forum, in multiple posts, and about other non-vegan thngs she and others have done. This is not an isolated thing, but I am not going to make a list here. But my main point is,

    Asking a self-admitted non-vegan not to post non-vegan thoughts on a vegan forum because it disturbs other vegans is not an attempt to drive anyone away from the vegan movement. This is a FORUM, not the real world.
    With that sensitivity and acceptance of the mistakes of others, I think you should run an AA meeting...

    I wonder if you weren't caught defending a small part of your original post, when that wasn't even the crux of it. Other than the bit about Banana going off somewhere else, I found myself heartily agreeing with your first post. Personally I have no problems with her posting this story here (once in two years). I am somewhat disappointed that she "slipped", but I see no reason why she should be banished for that.

    I especialy liked:
    Quote Seaside
    Being a vegan is EASY. There is no sacrifice or struggle once you arrive at a point in which you will consider animals as edible as paper grocery bags.
    I was recently in Germany, and we made a day trip to France at one point, where my wife (who is ovo-lacto veg) bought some cheese, including some St. Marcellin la Lyonnaise, which, in my non-vegan days, was my favorite cheese. So my wife and my mother proceeded to eat this cheese on lovely fresh baguette right in front of me, and I didn't have the slightest twinge of "oh I wish I could have just one bite". I knew exactly what horrors this cheese represented.
    No Gods, No Masters.

  28. #28
    Kumem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Quote mike
    To say that she's a self-admitted non-vegan completely misses the point. This is a question of semantics.

    How about letting a self-admitted "makes the choice to avoid all animal products to the best of her ability" admit to a time when she failed, explain what lessons she drew from it, and support others who're having a hard time as well?

    The fact that you can "make a list" (though you benevolently "choose not to") says a lot.
    I would say because it gives the impression that some animal products are so fantastically great tasting that they are utterly irresistable. That does more damage to promoting and encouraging veganism.
    It seems like a few of you are jumping up and down about the perceived lack of support. If you care to delve further you would find that people here are supportive. Are you all being supportive of peoples desire to not have issues like this is a vegan forum when there are areas for non vegans? Are you supportive of the fact that some might find what Banana did upsetting?
    I don't think Banana is being banished in any way shape or form anyway

    Image for just one moment that any of you were struggling with veganism. Would you consume animal produce or talk to people/friends on here about your thoughts? I think you would find a lot of support and advice from people.

  29. #29
    Michael Benis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    It's always worrying when you start replying to your own posts , but here goes anyway:

    Quote Michael Benis
    I also agree with Mike (nice name, incidentally).


    I don't know about anyone else, but the combination of protein paranoia (rife in the seventies) and B12 problems with social isolation meant I had quite a few lapses early on. I do know of people who have had no problems making the switch, but many don't and I can't see any reason why we can't discuss this openly - otherwise we simply get a struggling vegan who's being aliented by the normaloids and ostracised by the saints...

    Cheers

    Michael (just to be different)
    It's the "saints" bit I want to put into perspective.

    I don't want to demean anyone's passion and can understand anyone replying who's thinking less of the animal who has lapsed and more of the animal they have ingested.

    It's curious, though, that we can be so much more sympathietic to a flesh-eating potential "convert" than to a vegan "friend" who has "lapsed". Why is it that once that person is "on the inside" their "temptations" need to be put down so fiercely? And why are these peculiar religious terms so appropriate?

    I have seen many starting out as vegans who have felt very isolated because they couldn't share their worries with their flesh-eating friends or vegan friends - and indeed felt very disullusioned with the depth of the friendships they had made because of this.

    I was very happy to find this forum because it is so supportive. I hope it stays that way.

    Cheers

    Mike (oops!) Michael

  30. #30
    Kumem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Quote mysh
    I was recently in Germany, and we made a day trip to France at one point, where my wife (who is ovo-lacto veg) bought some cheese, including some St. Marcellin la Lyonnaise, which, in my non-vegan days, was my favorite cheese. So my wife and my mother proceeded to eat this cheese on lovely fresh baguette right in front of me, and I didn't have the slightest twinge of "oh I wish I could have just one bite". I knew exactly what horrors this cheese represented.
    I know exactly what you mean.
    I miss all sorts of things to a certain extent, but I have only been vegan for a short while in comparison to most people on here. I love animals more than I love the things I miss though.

  31. #31
    mike
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Quote Kumem
    Image for just one moment that any of you were struggling with veganism. Would you consume animal produce or talk to people/friends on here about your thoughts? I think you would find a lot of support and advice from people.
    Unless, God-forbid, you'd already made a mistake.

    Don't get me wrong, I do think there's been helpful advice and support for Banana on the How Are You Feeling Today? thread. Just not much on this thread, where people seem blinded to her troubles by their own disappointment ("") and in favor of giving her a gag order about her mistake.

    It's a vegan forum, so struggles of vegans (as a label or as a lifestyle) seems like fair game to me.

  32. #32

    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    I agree w/ you Kumen. I just think we all need to be open minded and supportive like Michael said, to those of us who occasionally have slip ups or struggle. We should be there for one another, instead of take the mistakes people make in their veganism personally. We need to be more understanding and I supportive. I like to think we can be
    Be thankful for this moment, this moment is your life:)

  33. #33
    Kumem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Quote mike
    Unless, God-forbid, you'd already made a mistake.

    Don't get me wrong, I do think there's been helpful advice and support for Banana on the How Are You Feeling Today? thread. Just not much on this thread, where people seem blinded to her troubles by their own disappointment ("") and in favor of giving her a gag order about her mistake.

    It's a vegan forum, so struggles of vegans (as a label or as a lifestyle) seems like fair game to me.
    My point here, and I should have made it clearer, is that I think that if someone had posted that they were struggling etc on here, then it would have given them the opportunity to get support.
    If they do not post to get support and just go ahead and eat animal produce then I don't think that's a good thing.
    I'm a little torn to be honest on this whole thing. I don't think that people are being less sympathetic than they would be to an omni, but if they were, would that be an issue? Most omnis do not know in detail the horrors of the abbatoir because they choose not to see. Someone who is vegan does not the horrors, so if they go ahead and consume animal produce, that could be perceived as worst.

  34. #34
    mike
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Quote Kumem
    My point here, and I should have made it clearer, is that I think that if someone had posted that they were struggling etc on here, then it would have given them the opportunity to get support.
    If they do not post to get support and just go ahead and eat animal produce then I don't think that's a good thing.
    Banana has posted for support about dairy cravings in the past.

    I'm a little torn to be honest on this whole thing. I don't think that people are being less sympathetic than they would be to an omni, but if they were, would that be an issue? Most omnis do not know in detail the horrors of the abbatoir because they choose not to see. Someone who is vegan does not the horrors, so if they go ahead and consume animal produce, that could be perceived as worst.
    I understand your logic, but surely you agree that no matter how much you know, it's possible to mess up. And surely, were you in that position, you'd hope people would be kind to you and forgiving (while being encouraging towards a cruelty-free lifestyle). And it'd be nice if your experience could help others, too.

  35. #35
    sugarmouse
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    Default Re: Why do we get put down???

    Quote bulletproof
    ''so what do you eat!?!?!???'' blergh.


    this is one question i cannot stand.i get pretty embarrassed talkin about food..i dont know why and i wish i could say it is none of your business!!


    but sometimes they aare geninely asking questions out of intrest and i will answer


    if they even try to put me down theyll get chewed up and spat out..or ignored..dependswot mood i am in.lol

  36. #36
    Kumem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Quote mike
    I understand your logic, but surely you agree that no matter how much you know, it's possible to mess up. And surely, were you in that position, you'd hope people would be kind to you and forgiving (while being encouraging towards a cruelty-free lifestyle). And it'd be nice if your experience could help others, too.

    I think a 'mess up' is an unintentional mistake. I agree that I'd hope people were kind, but I wouldn't ask them to be forgiving. It wouldn't be them that I had hurt. It would be great if the experience helped others, but I would worry that it would pave the way for people to think that it was okay to consume animal produce on occasion.
    Again I don't think that people are being unkind.

  37. #37
    Michael Benis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do we get put down???

    Quote sugarmouse
    this is one question i cannot stand.i get pretty embarrassed talkin about food..i dont know why and i wish i could say it is none of your business!!


    but sometimes they aare geninely asking questions out of intrest and i will answer


    if they even try to put me down theyll get chewed up and spat out..or ignored..dependswot mood i am in.lol

    Favourite reply: exactly what I like...

    It doesn't stop further questions, but it puts things in perspective (it's not self denial) and gives me a giggle, anyway...

    Cheers

    Michael

  38. #38
    sugarmouse
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    Default Re: Why do we get put down???

    thanks!lol

    i jsut cant be assed with idiots..do they reallythink i am going to change my mind cos of whatt they say?!?or get upset about it lol
    lol

    if someone argues withme about vegannism i can argue for britain..and i win..if they try and wind me up they wont succeed....i cant see the point..accept it or **** off..it isnt as if what i put thru my digestive system affects YOU is it?!!?



    some ppl are so stupid aswell.. i remember once years ago my friend had gone in shop and asked if they had any sandiwhiches which were vegan, and was told 'only the basic cheese ones'

  39. #39
    purrr..! DoveInGreyClothing's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do we get put down???

    Quote Evilfluffbunny
    Exactly, it would be considered racist to discriminate against someone who's vegan because of their religion (maybe a Jain for example), but it's acceptable if someone is vegan just through personal choice. I think many people see it as a fad or a case of mindless extremism - they don't see that it's a whole philosophy and way of life which IS like a religion to many people (myself included).

    I think many people put vegans down because we force them to take a look at themselves (even if we don't talk about it) and they often feel the need to justify their meat eating habits. Others just don't have a clue what veganism is about and they'd rather make fun of us than educate themselves!
    I agree with this so much. Veganism is a religious belief to me.
    It is a monstrous thing to do, to slay a unicorn...you have slain something pure and defenceless and you will have but a half life, a cursed life, from the moment the blood touches your lips.

  40. #40
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do we get put down???

    In 1944, when Donald Watson and friends had the initial meetings that later grew into what we now call the vegan movement, they had a long discussion about honey. This is a site for vegans, and/but there are a few grey zones: one is the fact that it's impossible to be a 'perfect vegan' in a non-vegan world, another one is that whatever ideals or goals we have, we're not perfect, a third is that in order to live as close to the way you want as long as possible, for a few/some/many (?) people this means that in some situations they may use some tiny amounts of animal products, otherwise, the vegan label would just became a headache for them... Nobody wants a headache.

    We have a thread about honey. Using honey isn't part of being vegan, according to what these people agreed on back in 1944. But IMO it would be unfair to censor away all questions, all 'loud thinking' about pro's and con's, even in a site only for people who have decided that they want to live as close to being vegan as they are able to.

    Obviously, there were 'non-vegan thoughts' even in the initial meetings in The Vegan Society.

    Let's accept the grey zone, and still keep this a site only for pro vegan people. While there's no need to announce every possible slip everybody has had, let's not ignore the fact that there is a grey zone. If even pro-vegans won't feel at home here, others may not want to join at all. If we create the illusion that we're all perfect, maybe others who visit us may just feel miserable when they encounter their own non-perfectness?

    I'm pretty convinced that for some pro vegan people, it's healthier not to call themselves vegans and still do their best, instead of sticking to some label and possibly feel a conflict both with (some?) other vegans and all the non-vegans out there.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  41. #41
    Cakeaholic rainbow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Well said, Korn.
    Live and let live

  42. #42
    Seaside
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Quote Mysh
    With that sensitivity and acceptance of the mistakes of others, I think you should run an AA meeting...
    Thanks. It is my sensitivity that causes me to object to the following types of statements:

    Quote Banana
    My house has a big spider problem - there was a gross black one in the sink this morning and I freaked out and washed it down the drain with boiling water.

    I realised that I just wanted to be me - being me gives me the choice of how I want to live my life, whereas being a vegan commits me to never eating animal products.

    I am going to admit that on occassions I consume honey.

    I ate a bar of white chocolate on the weekend

    The label means following rules - and rules are made to be broken.
    Those of us who are "saints", "holier-than-thou" types, and "perfect vegans" are entitled, on a vegan forum, to politely object to, or disagree with, a person making these statements without being rudely and unfairly characterised as such. Some of the people on this forum take the "rules" of veganism very seriously, and it is unfair to expect people who struggle to maintain their commitment to veganism to simply remain silent.


    Quote Banana
    I'm sorry if I have offended anyone. I just want to be honest.
    Obviously you suspected that you might disturb someone when making these admissions. What were you planning on doing when someone came out and said they were offended, Banana, besides telling them that you actually care nothing for their thoughts?

    Quote Mozbee
    Banana, so you had a slight hiccup in your veganism, considering your present surroundings (ie The Vegan Forum) wouldn't it have been better all round to have kept it to yourself?
    I guess I could have saved myself a lot of typing is I had put it this way, Mozbee. That basically sums it all up for me.

  43. #43
    FR
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Quote banana
    My house has a big spider problem - there was a gross black one in the sink this morning and I freaked out and washed it down the drain with boiling water.
    Oh my, poor spider. Maybe next time you can put a cup near one and guide it in. Once it is in, cover the cup, take it outside, and release the spider. What if someone thought a dog, like your Odi was gross, and boiled it to death? Would that upset you? Or would it be okay beacuse the person freaked out and thought the dog was gross?

  44. #44
    Ratbag Cal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Thanks Seaside, Mozbee, Kumem, FR and other committed vegans for your posts.

    Korn, the "grey zone" seems to be getting bigger?

    Banana, you may need to change your signature from:

    "I'm not a vegan coz I hate meat - I am a vegan coz I hate vegetables..."

    to:

    "I'm not a vegan coz I eat animal products - I'm not a vegan coz I don't like labels..."

    Tell the animals that one.
    A bit rattled

  45. #45
    mike
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Quote Cal
    Tell the animals that one.
    Uh, the animals would not care less as long as they weren't being eaten or used. The animals don't know what the label "vegan" means.

  46. #46
    mike
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Quote Seaside
    Thanks. It is my sensitivity that causes me to object to the following types of statements:
    And then you go on to take the quotes out of context. Three of these were from the same occasion, which was explained as having nothing to do with not being vegan anymore, but has to do with not calling oneself a vegan due to personal psychological implications. You don't get this for some reason. I'm not sure if you're even trying to.

    The honey quote was followed by "I don't personally use it, but if I am in a situation where there is not a lot of choice, and the food is vegan otherwise, I have eaten it." So, that's a little different.

    I can't find the spider quote, but I'm sure it was similarly taken out of context.

    I like, by the way, that you keep little files of unacceptable quotes from the vegans you don't approve of.

    Essentially, I think you're fighting against someone who is on your side. To quote you with a few minor changes, "it is unfair to expect people like Banana, who struggle to maintain their commitment to a cruelty-free lifestyle, to simply remain silent about their challenges and growth."

  47. #47
    Seaside
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Quote mike
    I like, by the way, that you keep little files of unacceptable quotes from the vegans you don't approve of.
    Hi mike!

  48. #48
    AR Activist Roxy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Quote rainbow
    Can anyone see the irony here that all this is on a thread entitled "why do I get put down"? If we can't tolerate each other, no wonder no-one else can tolerate us!
    Well said!

    Why can't you all stop being so bloody judgemental! Until you walk in Banana's shoes - DON'T JUDGE HER!

    No wonder so many people get pissed off with this place and leave.

  49. #49
    Seaside
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Quote Roxy
    Well said!

    Why can't you all stop being so bloody judgemental! Until you walk in Banana's shoes - DON'T JUDGE HER!

    No wonder so many people get pissed off with this place and leave.
    No one is, Roxy. I don't know why that isn't perfectly clear.

  50. #50
    AR Activist Roxy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    You've got to be kidding. Anyway......I'm not getting any further into this. I've said all I want to say on the topic.

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