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Thread: Occasional slips and ongoing food cravings

  1. #51
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Banana has left.
    Korn, the "grey zone" seems to be getting bigger?
    No, the grey zone has always been there, same size and everything - but what it consists of differ from person to person. It has to do with individual interpretations off avoiding harming/killing animals 'as much as possible', doesn't it?

    I live in a house with windows made of glass. This means that some birds will get killed a few times during my lifetime, because I have decided that my need for windows is more important than the life of these birds. Unless I escape this society and go stoneageism, I'll harm and kill animals, and even then, I'll step on some insects.

    Let's not make it taboo to discuss the grey zone and how to deal with it - or pretend it's not there. Also, let's not make it bigger than it is and focus on it all the time.... some people ie. have a tendency to register and let us know all they do that is not vegan, which we don't need to hear. I guess they just want to feel that they're not 'cheating', or sum up for themselves where they are right now before they possible go vegan.

    I mentioned three 'grey' areas:
    'one is the fact that it's impossible to be a 'perfect vegan' in a non-vegan world'. It is, and this will always cause some thoughts and discussion, for example because because newcomers are surprised to find animal products where they didn't expect to find them. We need to face this, it would be weird to censor these discussions away or pretend that we all always avoid all animal products, or never support any companies or people who put money into the met industry...

    'another one is that whatever ideals or goals we have, we're not perfect'. IMO; this is also important not only to accept, but to acknowledge. If we wouldn't, we would get a number of visitors who probably would just leave after a while, because they felt that they weren't able to achieve 'perfect-veganism', while all the others in here appear to be enlightened.

    'a third is that in order to live as close to the way you want as long as possible, for a few/some/many (?) people this means that in some situations they may use some tiny amounts of animal products, otherwise, the vegan label would just became a headache for them...'

    This is related to the other examples, because in our world, vegans actually don't avoid animal products 'as much as possible'. It's impossible to live in this world and do that. The glass window example is only one of many other I could mention.

    There are grey areas, but also, we don't want a site with a main focus on the grey area - we are not heading for a confession club where all of us report evry time we by accident killed an insect when walking or driving a car, or start a thread everytime someone feel like eating something non-vegan (which new vegans sometimes do)...

    It's a question of balance, and I don't think we can solve this one by adding some clever new gudielines - but maybe I'm wrong. We just need to improvise a little.

    Veganism isn't about denial, guilt or turbo-perfectionism, but for some vegans and others, eating and food IS, even life as such has small or big elements of guilt in it.

    Normally, we (?) tend to think that 'it's not important what I think, but what I do'. Somehow I think it all boils down to who we are.

    I personally feel more comfortable with people who are dedicated to do their best, but accept that in some situations this doesn't happen or isn't possible or that they have some days/situations where they just aren't doing whatever they can to avoid killing/harming, than people who pretend they are perfect or that there are no grey areas. If we wouldn't accept the grey zone, we could all develop some sort of spiritual anorexia.

    We can't expect others to have the same grey areas as ourselves, can we?

    This is a site for vegans. The way I feel it, I think it's OK to share issues you have with the grey areas if you feel a need to discuss these topics with other vegans. If we can't talk about these issues with other vegans, who should we talk about them with? (But please use the search engine first!!! )

    I don't eat honey occasionally or occasionally kill insects intentionally, but if I did, I'd probably not see a need to mention this unless I ie. were considering dropping veganism or wanted to discuss these issues with someone / wanted feedback from others to find out how they felt about these topics.

    I haven't read all the posts Banana has written, but I have seen that she has been very open both about her history with eating disorders, and about her issues with using the label 'vegan'. She seem to be serious about dealing with this in the best way she can, and has decided to leave, which in a way is both sad and fair/healthy for her. The following is probably all about by my ego, but I feel more supportive towards Banana than people who appear to be vegan and then go 'what is wrong with eating free-range animals'... I don't know if she has been 'policed' here, or if she is more sensitive than others, or if she simply feels that she isn't a really a vegan. It still feels sad when people leave: I guess it makes us all thing that maybe we could have communicated with each other ways that didn't want to make some people leave or possibly move away from being vegan.

    People have left earlier, and will in the future. This is not the first time someone has decided to drop considering themselves vegans.

    If everybody who has even been a vegan or vegetarian would have reminded veg*ns, there would have been a lot of us out there.... As people who are against using animal products, I guess addressing why some people decide to NOT call themselves vegan anymore could need some more focus.

    I don't think Banana will go back to using more animal products than she has told us that she occasionally does, she is probably just dealing with labels in a way that feels better for her, and that's fine with me.

    I'm convinced there are other members who think along the same lines as her: they agree in being vegan, but don't ALWAYS do their best to avoid animal products, and/but they don't share their 'slips' with us... and that's fine with me to.

    Please don't throw any stones if you live in a house with glass windows...
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  2. #52
    I eve's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    I'm sorry that Banana has gone, because it seemed to me that she was rather judgmental of herself with a need to unburden herself of little things that made her feel guilty of her own actions. Never feel guilty about anything, we can only do the best we can, and as we are all different, 'the best' for some people is different to that for others. I hope she comes back when it feels right.
    Eve

  3. #53
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Hi Korn

    The thing is there is a big difference between unavoidable pain to animal (such as if one flew into your window for example) and making the decison to do something that is not vegan. I won't mention examples, as I think we have all heard them from people in the past.

    I do not think that people have been nasty, rude, disrespectful here and a part of me wonders what the fuss is all about

    If anything, some of the responses that people like me have gotten are more disrespectful.

    I have suffered extensively with eating disorders. IMO being vegan is easy. I was eating meat less than 6 months ago and haven't struggled, so I do not think there is any correlation between the two and I wouldn't use my past to make me feel better about discarding my morals temporarily.

    I am not asking the following question to prolong the issue, but I generally would like an answer to it. As Seaside mentioned, if someone were to come on here and talk about boiling a dog alive for example, would they be banned?
    I do not see it as any difference in talking about a spider. I know that this all happened on another thread, but it is pertinent to this as it has been discussed and so have the guidelines. My feelings are that if someone came on here and said that, it would not be seen as such a grey area. This, IMO, goes against everything that veganism stands for. That message upset a lot of people; people who were more upset than Banana probably was for getting a few polite disagreements regarding her actions.

    Liz

  4. #54
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    I partially agree here; I have found Veganism very easy, especially when I consider my past diet. But I guess it is different for everyone. I am amazed to hear people craving foods because I never have done, not yet at least.

    As for boiling a dog alive; Although I hate to say it, despite Vegans having a general respect for all life, most of us would find it hard to feel the same emotions for a spider and a dog. For instance, seeing a spider boiled alive wouldn't be all too harroing. As for a dog, there would be screams of pain, an expression filled face and a real essence of fear. There would also be blood. On top of this, many of us here haven't been Vegan all our lives, and many of us will have had pet dogs. As I said, it shouldn;t be the way it is, but we tend to have more attatchement to 'pet' animals.

  5. #55
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Quote Glen
    I partially agree here; I have found Veganism very easy, especially when I consider my past diet. But I guess it is different for everyone. I am amazed to hear people craving foods because I never have done, not yet at least.

    As for boiling a dog alive; Although I hate to say it, despite Vegans having a general respect for all life, most of us would find it hard to feel the same emotions for a spider and a dog. For instance, seeing a spider boiled alive wouldn't be all too harroing. As for a dog, there would be screams of pain, an expression filled face and a real essence of fear. There would also be blood. On top of this, many of us here haven't been Vegan all our lives, and many of us will have had pet dogs. As I said, it shouldn;t be the way it is, but we tend to have more attatchement to 'pet' animals.
    Hi The thing is that of course people feel more attachment to their pets or pet animals, but it would be harrowing to see. I would find it harrowing to see anything go through such intense pain - surely everyone can remember what it feels like to put your hand in a bath when theres not enough cold water. It flipping hurts! Imagine that multiplied for 100. I think it is about empathy and I'm not for one minute suggesting you are not empathic Glen, don't get me wrong. What I mean is that I find it really easy to imagine feelings of pain - in fact I have a real pain phobia
    I have only been vegan a short time and have had dogs all my life, but it doesn't detract from my ability to empathise with other forms of life.
    If I had to save one of my cats or one of my old dogs over a spider, I would, but that's because I have an emotional connection to that particular animal, not that particular species - do you get what I mean? I'd save my parents over a stranger etc etc. They're no more important in the grand scheme of things, but they're more important to me.

  6. #56
    Mozbee
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Quote Glen
    As for boiling a dog alive; Although I hate to say it, despite Vegans having a general respect for all life, most of us would find it hard to feel the same emotions for a spider and a dog. For instance, seeing a spider boiled alive wouldn't be all too harroing. As for a dog, there would be screams of pain, an expression filled face and a real essence of fear. There would also be blood.
    Glen you give me the impression that you can relate to a dogs emotional well-being quite easily. Have you ever contemplated what it's like to be a spider for even a few minutes?
    It doesn't matter whether us ignorant humans can decipher or recognise their feelings or not (whether they be beetle, snake, whale, lion, dog, fish, eagle, seahorse, spider,...) what matters to them is the preservation of their life.

  7. #57
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    I can empathise, I wouldn't boil a spider ever lol, I wouldn't have done that prior to being Vegan. But for me, and many others I'm sure, the emotional connection extends to all dogs / pets. Most people would be horrified to see a dead dog in the road, however if it was a fox, most people would barely think twice. Its another of those things that is different for everyone. I can see where you are coming from though, and I can 'feel' a spiders pain, but would find it hard to compare with a dog.

  8. #58
    mike
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Quote Kumem
    I wouldn't use my past to make me feel better about discarding my morals temporarily.

    Yeah, everyone's being so nice and understanding.

  9. #59
    mike
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Quote Mozbee
    Banana wherever you are - I hope you've enjoyed all this attention
    You're adding a lot to this discussion. Oh, wait, no you aren't. Just bitter quips that make people feel bad.

  10. #60
    mike
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Quote Kumem
    I know that this all happened on another thread, but it is pertinent to this as it has been discussed and so have the guidelines. My feelings are that if someone came on here and said that, it would not be seen as such a grey area. This, IMO, goes against everything that veganism stands for.
    I want to see this other thread, because I'm willing to bet that Banana was talking about it in a way that showed that she felt bad about the incident, and that it was just a knee-jerk reaction. If you're going to talk about it in a way that's damning, might as well link to it, don't you think?

    Also, sorry, but Banana belongs on this forum. She was always trying to be cruelty-free, supportive, and loving. This backlash against her for revealing her faults (along with her commitment to being better, even!!!) is pretty sickening.

  11. #61
    Kumem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Mike is there not something a little concerning about the distinct lack of nastiness emitting from threads that people opposed to what Banana did? In comparison with your last three messages, which seemed a little venomous.

    I don't like the action she took. I don't dislike her though and it's not mine or anyone elses job to make someone feel better about doing something. This discussion had kind of moved onto to things more general, but you seem to feel the need to bring it up again. Just because you feel the need to offer support to someone, does not mean that everyone will if it something they disagree with.

    What is wrong with saying I wouldn't use my past as an excuse to temporarily discard my morals. I simply wouldn't, that's just me. That's not me chastising anyone else, it's just my opinion on what I would or wouldn't do!!! You seem a little defensive on someone elses part over that comment.

    You don't know Mozbee, so you may have simply misinterpreted her comments, but there was a wink and a smile there. If you look at other messages by her on this thread, you will see that she has said nothing that was nasty.

    As for providing a link to the other thread, that's not my job. If people are interested then they can look or ask where it is. That particular post had a question in it that was directed to Korn, who knows where that thread is. It was not opportunity for me to delve into further arguments relating to this issue. I genuinely wanted an answer.

    I note that you are very willing to offer your opinion on the matter, but you have not answered the questions that I asked in that message, so I would argue that you are doing what you accused Mozbee of doing in not adding a lot to the discussion.

    Liz

  12. #62
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Quote eve
    I'm sorry that Banana has gone, because it seemed to me that she was rather judgmental of herself with a need to unburden herself of little things that made her feel guilty of her own actions. Never feel guilty about anything, we can only do the best we can, and as we are all different, 'the best' for some people is different to that for others. I hope she comes back when it feels right.
    Well said Eve. I do so agree with you.

  13. #63
    Mozbee
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Well if that's your interpretation -

  14. #64
    mike
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Quote Kumem
    What is wrong with saying I wouldn't use my past as an excuse to temporarily discard my morals. I simply wouldn't, that's just me. That's not me chastising anyone else, it's just my opinion on what I would or wouldn't do!!!
    Liz
    What's wrong with it is that it implies that's what Banana was doing, when she's said she doesn't excuse her actions, and she does not think it was right to eat dairy.

  15. #65
    mike
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Quote Aurora
    Well said Eve. I do so agree with you.
    I agree as well.

  16. #66
    Gliondrach
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    I can agree with both points of view here. Banana's had a very difficult time lately. I hope that she stays what most people would call a vegan. In fact there are no vegans in this forum. We all deliberately kill insects. We walk in grass and know that when we do so we kill insects. And yet we still choose to walk in grass. We could stay on the path where it's easier to see where our feet are going but we choose to kill insects by walking in the grass. We eat non organic food. Millions of insects are poisoned to bring us our spuds. We choose to be implicated in that slaughter. Some members are married to or live with or go out with meat eaters and, therefore, condone their disgusting and cruel eating habits. That's because we let our emotions get the better of us. A human/animal trait.

    I want to stay on good terms with the people on this forum, so I hope that I haven't offended anyone. I'm trying to point out that none of us are perfect. To avoid all harm would mean that we would have to live in a hermit's cell and never go anywhere. It would still be impossible to avoid harm.

    There are precious few of us in the world. We need each other.

  17. #67
    yogini
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    just as there are no perfect people in the world, neither are there perfect vegans.
    we are all trying to do our best.
    gliondrach is right, we do need each other.if we turn on each other we are simply breaking down the few exisiting support networks we have, and thats not going to make it easier for anyone to be vegan.
    banana was simply being honest in an environment where she felt she would be understood. instead of being supported she was attacked.
    i feel really yuck about this whole situation. i will miss banana.

    s.carrot.

  18. #68
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Quote Gliondrach
    I can agree with both points of view here. Banana's had a very difficult time lately. I hope that she stays what most people would call a vegan. In fact there are no vegans in this forum. We all deliberately kill insects. We walk in grass and know that when we do so we kill insects. And yet we still choose to walk in grass. We could stay on the path where it's easier to see where our feet are going but we choose to kill insects by walking in the grass. We eat non organic food. Millions of insects are poisoned to bring us our spuds. We choose to be implicated in that slaughter. Some members are married to or live with or go out with meat eaters and, therefore, condone their disgusting and cruel eating habits. That's because we let our emotions get the better of us. A human/animal trait.

    I want to stay on good terms with the people on this forum, so I hope that I haven't offended anyone. I'm trying to point out that none of us are perfect. To avoid all harm would mean that we would have to live in a hermit's cell and never go anywhere. It would still be impossible to avoid harm.

    There are precious few of us in the world. We need each other.
    I think this is really well put and considerate. I don't think that anyone that disagreed with Banana's action dislike her as a person and it has kind of become warped in this whole mess. I'm sure I speak for everyone that disagreed with the actions, rather than Banana as a person, that I wouldn't want to see anyone leave this forum, especially after contributing so much.

  19. #69
    mike
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Quote Kumem
    I think this is really well put and considerate. I don't think that anyone that disagreed with Banana's action dislike her as a person and it has kind of become warped in this whole mess. I'm sure I speak for everyone that disagreed with the actions, rather than Banana as a person, that I wouldn't want to see anyone leave this forum, especially after contributing so much.
    Yes, I think that's something we can all agree with.

  20. #70
    Seaside
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Quote mike
    I want to see this other thread, because I'm willing to bet that Banana was talking about it in a way that showed that she felt bad about the incident, and that it was just a knee-jerk reaction. If you're going to talk about it in a way that's damning, might as well link to it, don't you think?

    Also, sorry, but Banana belongs on this forum. She was always trying to be cruelty-free, supportive, and loving. This backlash against her for revealing her faults (along with her commitment to being better, even!!!) is pretty sickening.
    Here it is, and I am only posting this because it was requested. I am not trying to prolong this discussion:
    Re: How do u feel today?

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I have had high anxiety levels since I got bitten by the spider last Wednesday. I was very sick from it - fever, chills, headaches, nausea, unable to focus my eyes...My house has a big spider problem - there was a gross black one in the sink this morning and I freaked out and washed it down the drain with boiling water. I know this is a vegan forum and I shouldn't kill living things, but I am so frightened of them. I always was, but this has worsened it. Tomorrow I am getting a professional in. I know how unvegan it is, but I don't feel safe in my home. I have had panic attacks every day since I got bitten.
    Here is Cals response:
    Re: How do u feel today?

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Originally Posted by Banana
    My house has a big spider problem - there was a gross black one in the sink this morning and I freaked out and washed it down the drain with boiling water.
    Banana, I wish you hadn't posted this.

    I saw the post last night and wasn't going to reply but I lay awake for ages thinking about the spider being killed by the boiling water and it made me very sad. Killing animals because of a fear of them is not what I associate with the vegan approach to life. I wish you could have found a more compassionate way to deal with your problem, such as find a person who is not afraid of spiders to relocate him or her.Sorry, I just had to say something, I have always loved spiders.
    And here is my response:
    Re: How do u feel today?

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Posted by Cal:


    Banana, I wish you hadn't posted this.
    I gotta agree, Cal.
    I feel bad for what you are going through, Banana, but maybe it would be better to keep those kinds of details to yourself, or PM people you are close to if you need to discuss it. It is difficult for me also to think of that spider having boiling water poured on it. I'm not judging what you did, because I don't know what it is like for you, I would just rather not read about it here.
    And later, my other response:
    Re: How do u feel today?

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Posted by foxytina_69:


    oh gawd. can we not. *rolls eyes*

    who the hell cares. whatever floats your boat. anyways. new topic.

    love ya banana

    (by the way this isnt directed towards puffin )


    Posted by puffin:

    I think people are being a bit hard on Banana.
    I had hoped not to seem hard on Banana, but I wanted to add my voice to Cal's. I feel bad for both Banana and the spider. I can only imagine what Banana has gone through, but I do know how it feels to have boiling water poured on you (child abuse) and it was not a good association for me.
    I hope there are no hard feelings. There are no easy ways to bring these sorts of things up without hurting someone's feelings, I know.
    That's all it was ever about for me. I am sorry Banana has left, it was never my wish to see her leave. I understand completely the need for people to find support here.

    Why can't support for this kind of stuff be obtained through PMs?

    And as far as the glass house analogy, and no one being able to be a perfect vegan, I know that very well. My cats are not vegan. Therefore, I refrain from describing what they eat on a vegan forum for fear of upsetting sensitive people. Is it such a stretch of the imagination to consider that some people might be genuinely upset about these kinds of posts, without having bad feelings about the person making them?

    I just think that some things are better to keep to ourselves, and between our friends and supporters.

  21. #71
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Quote Seaside
    this forum is a place where vegans should not have to be subjected to explanations of why a person prefers not to be a vegan, or that dairy yogurt is better than soy yogurt, etc.

    Is it such a stretch of the imagination to consider that some people might be genuinely upset about these kinds of posts, without having bad feelings about the person making them?
    Quote FR
    It is irritating as all hell to hear someone constantly complain about how vegan white chocolate is no where near as good as white chocolate made from calf food, or that soy yogurt is nasty, or that ice cream made from plant sourced ingredients sucks, etc.
    Quote Mozbee
    Banana, so you had a slight hiccup in your veganism, considering your present surroundings (ie The Vegan Forum) wouldn't it have been better all round to have kept it to yourself?
    Quote Kumem
    I don't think the messages on here have been disparaging towards Banana, but towards her decision to consume dairy and tell people about it.
    Does nobody here know that there is an "ignore" option that they can use to ignore the posts from a particular member? If people are offended when a member wishes to share their opinion of vegan food, talk about personal faults or struggles, or post messages which may be interpreted by some as promoting non-veganism, then by all means, rather than start a conflict, just ignore the person.

    On another note, many of you are saying that Banana should have kept what she did to herself, but don't you think that there are worse things that some of you have said elsewhere on this forum which, by your own rationale, should have been kept to yourselves?
    "Man can do as he wills, but not will as he wills" - Arthur Schopenhauer

  22. #72
    cross barer
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    God. I hadn't been following this thread but when I saw nanas goodbye message, I had a look back through some of her last posts and found this.

    I do not want a forum where everyone agrees. I want a place where I can be challenged, and where I can find support. What I have seen here is people saying I cannot ask for support in certain circumstances in case it disturbs them.

    What I find most surprising is some of the people responsible for this kind of opinion are among those who recently started another forum for vegans and did so because they weren't happy with the way people got attacked for 'not being vegan enough' on some of the threads here.

  23. #73
    Melissa assilembob's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Quote rainbow
    Maybe if you have not experienced an eating disorder then you will not understand the significance of what she did, but having the courage to permit herself to eat a 'banned' food is important psychologically and shows that she is regaining control of her life, even if it amounts to a slip from veganism.
    Well said and you are 100% right. Unless you have experienced the psychological aspect of how food (and a fear of it) can control you...you can never understand how significant it was for her to take this action.
    It's not even about it being an animal product but labeling it as "Can't have" or forbidden that can cause more harm. I tried that once and lets just say I had some major, major issues for a while. Now I don't say "I can't have cheese..."
    That isn't saying I do. But that if I truly need it for my mental health than I will. It's something indescribable and most people can only look down and criticize instead of being supportive.
    That being said, I understand why Banana has left and wish that I could have been able to say "I'm so sorry" to her before she did. Her kindness and spirit will be missed a great deal.



    I hate when I leave town for a while and miss important discussions.

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    ~Mel

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  24. #74
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    *blinks*

    You all need to listen to more reggae.

  25. #75
    cross barer
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Quote miss_laura
    *blinks*

    You all need to listen to more reggae.

  26. #76
    VeganJohn
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    I am gobsmacked by this entire thread...........shame when vegans argue between themselves.

    Hope banana is OK and happy wherever she is.

    (((((((banana))))))))

  27. #77
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Vegans with slips

    I just think that some things are better to keep to ourselves, and between our friends and supporters.
    The quote above was from a thread discussing how to deal with 'slips'. As this is a site for vegans, I think we both need to keep this a 'harm-free', 'kill-free' zone. No reports about boiled dogs, please! We also deal with the fact that we are not perfect and that we have different version of the 'grey area' (that has been discussed elsewhere).

    As a comment to the quote above, IMO it's important not to forget that this site is MEANT to be act as 'friends and supporters' for our members. That's why I've created this thread:if you feel the need to talk about slips and the 'grey zone' with friends and supporters, please do it here. It's not meant as a confession club where you report every time you feel like eating cheese (if you do), get mad at a mosquito, or suspect that you just consumed ** micrograms of something animal derived.

    (In my personal opinion, some vegans seem to spend too much energy on focusing on animal products on a microscopic level, and too little on enjoying the great world of plant foods and all it's brilliant tastes. No, we don't want animal products anywhere, but sometimes we just can't help being exposed to them. IMO it's better to spend two hours on writing a letter to a local newspaper or a letter to your school requesting that they provide proper info on plant based nutrition than spending two hours figure out how to avoid 0.1 mcg [insert disgusting animal product here]. I think this way of helping animals is better for both yourself and for the vegan movement, but again, that's just my personal opinion.)

    Maybe I should rename the 'Not A Vegan Yet'-subforum to ''Not A Vegan At The Moment'?

    Again, please don't go bananas and post all and every food craving you might have - they're not THAT interesting .

    And please don't go banana and leave the site if you discover that you're not perfect or have problems with being reminded that you're not.
    Last edited by Korn; Aug 7th, 2005 at 09:54 AM. Reason: The posts above came from another thread...
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  28. #78
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Quote Kumem
    Hi Korn

    The thing is there is a big difference between unavoidable pain to animal (such as if one flew into your window for example) and making the decison to do something that is not vegan.
    This is about the 'grey zone', but we don't all have the same grey zone. If you have a phobia against insects, it might be more difficult for you not go crazy about them than it would be for a buddhist to renounce this world and live in an area with bamboo huts with no glass windows. We're all different.

    As Seaside mentioned, if someone were to come on here and talk about boiling a dog alive for example, would they be banned? I do not see it as any difference in talking about a spider.
    There is a difference: in our past, we're more used to kill insects than to kill dogs. Not that it really matters, but we need to tune in a little bit to where we all come from, and accept that we're not perfect.

    I once heard an old musician say that some of the things you need in order to become a great musician aren't things you can't achieve by rehearsing, you just need to 'grow into them'. I'm pretty sure that new vegans don't know how gross just watching a food program on TV describing and showing how to cut the meat can be for someone who has been away from meat for many years. Maybe new vegans can't understand these feelings by reading a book.

    That message upset a lot of people; people who were more upset than Banana probably was for getting a few polite disagreements regarding her actions.
    We don't need to read about boiling dogs or spiders on a vegan forum, but I don't want people to leave because they have issues with being imperfect either. I've just created a thread in the Not A Vegan Yet-area, for people who need to communicate about unintentional, intentional and semi-intenional slips. Let's see how that solution works, and hope that people don't interpret this new thread as an encouragement to post every 'sin' they have done or wanted to do. This isn't about sin at all!
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  29. #79
    Mozbee
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Just for a great musical interlude, may I offer to all you budding vegans out there the lyrics of -
    "Do Anything You Wanna Do" by Eddie & The Hot Rods, please sing along

    Gonna break out of this city
    Leave the people here behind
    Looking for adventure
    Is the type of life you'll find
    Tired of doing day jobs
    With no thanks for what I do
    I'm sure I must be someone
    Now I'm gonna find out who

    Why don't you ask them what they expect from you
    Why don't you tell them what you are gonna do
    You get so lonely
    Maybe it's better that way
    It ain't you only
    And we've got something to say

    Do anything you wanna do
    Do anything you wanna do


    Love Mozbee

  30. #80
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    Default Re: Vegans with slips

    So not 'slips' as in the type of under-clothing...how disappointing...
    We are saved in the end by the things that ignore us. Andrew Harvey

  31. #81
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    Default Re: Vegans with slips

    Quote terrace max
    So not 'slips' as in the type of under-clothing...how disappointing...
    Unless you want to confess to having fantasies about woollen, leather, silk or fur ones!
    please grant me the senility to forget about people I never liked anyway

  32. #82
    Seaside
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Quote adam antichrist
    ....

    I do not want a forum where everyone agrees.....
    Isn't that what this forum is? Or are there special people and subjects that must never be challenged?
    Just be sure to pick the right people to disagree with, and you'll be fine.

    Korn, thanks for the link. You should add "mecahnic" under "Kornator". because it looks like you can fix almost anything.

  33. #83
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    I am suprised that the spider thing has been brought up. As i said before for those who have not read the posts, that people act differently when confronted by there worse fear, the poor girl was petrified. I also understand why people can get upset by reading something like that, but maybe when people are crying and hating themselves for what they did then maybe its time to sit back and think about what we say to those people so they dont hate themselves anymore than they do already

  34. #84
    AR Activist Roxy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vegans with slips

    LOL

  35. #85
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    Default Re: Vegans with slips

    Would that be a confession?

    (OK, I'll get my coat...)
    We are saved in the end by the things that ignore us. Andrew Harvey

  36. #86
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vegans with slips

    Quote Banana
    Read the How do you feel today thread, back a few days/a week or so. I was craving freedom (and dairy) so badly, that I did it. I think it was an important thing for me to do. It was this experience that made me re-think giving myself a label. The label means following rules - and rules are made to be broken. I realised that I just wanted to be me - being me gives me the choice of how I want to live my life, whereas being a vegan commits me to never eating animal products. This makes the food more mysterious and tempting. Now that I am "allowed" to have them in my mind, I find it less appealing.
    As a last comment, I think this is a very common way of look at 'forbidden fruits'... If you don't call yourself a vegan now, but find animal products less appealing and therefore will use them less, I guess you have come to a solution that is both better for you and the animals you don't eat. I'm glad you brought this thing up, because I'm convinced that there are thousands of vegans out there who have or have had the same issues. As I wrote, we don't need to overdo the 'confession club'-thing, but I have a feeling that dealing with the 'grey zone' could need more focus: if all people dealt with 'i have problems with being vegan' whenever it came up they way you have done, my feeling is that less animals would get killed in the future.

    Quote Seaside
    I don't understand this. [...] I'm not trying to judge anyone, or "police" their veganness, but this is a forum for vegans, and for vegans, using the bodies of animals or the products of those bodies is not an option. Not once a month, not once a year, and not as a "learning experience".
    People are different. Very different. If 'disciplined' people expect that the 100% 'pure and disciplined' way works for everybody else, they might make the situation more difficult for people with different personalities - needlessly.

    Even if we forget about this particular case now (I'm not really interested in who is 'right' and who is 'wrong'), I think it's important to deal with the fact that different methods work for different people. Most non-vegans may think being vegan requires too much discipline, or they may falsely believe that it requires elements of self-denial. Let's say that some people are more 'discipline-oriented', but others are more 'freedom-oriented' (not good labels, I know, but the best I can come up with right now). Here comes the area that IMO needs more focus: If the 'discipline-oriented' people are to give advice to the 'freedom-oriented' people, without understanding that their 'methods' may not work for others (or may even have the opposite effect), there is a very realistic chance that the 'freedom-oriented' people would just go 'I'm not ready for this yet. Too much discipline required. I'll skip becoming vegan for now - maybe I'm a better person in 5 years, will try again then. Goodbye'.

    If a person decides to give themselves permission to give in to a craving every once in a while, the addiction will never end. I am here to say to people struggling with these cravings that, as a 20-year vegan, they will go away.
    I'm an example of the opposite. The cravings are totally gone, and I have given myself permission to give in for a craving once in a while in the past. Now, I'm not going to do the same mistake that I'm describing, and say that my method will work for everybody. It might be totally wrong for someone, or be wrong (or right) most of the time, but not always.

    Being a vegan is EASY.
    It sure is, but getting there may not be easy if we don't know ourselves and try to follow the advice of someone very different from ourselves - or if we pretend that we are something which we are not.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  37. #87
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Some great posts there from several people and Korn in particular. I agree that the "grey zone" does need support - it's mostly about creative and compassionate people coping with the realisation that if they want to be themselves they will be different, and being firghtened of that and feeling excluded and deprived. Sometimes it takes a while to realise that you will deprive yourself more by not being yourself, while also gradually wearing yourself down with the realisation that by lurking on the fringes of your potential you are also causing all sorts of unnecessary suffering. I do think it's a pity that Banana felt she was not getting support on that journey - particularly since it's a road many of us here have had to travel.

    Cheers

    Mike aka Michael

  38. #88
    mike
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Quote Seaside

    Quote adam antichrist
    I do not want a forum where everyone agrees.....
    Isn't that what this forum is?
    No.

  39. #89

    Default Re: Vegans with slips

    Exactly what is this "slip" thing? To me, it would be a MOMENT of weakness where one eats an animal product, not that they planned for months or craved for months this item. Also, it could be an unintentional ingestion, either forgetting to check ingredients or being lied to, et cetera.

    But a planned relapse and surrendering of the "vegan" label because you don't want the label anymore? How is that a slip? To me, that's saying, "This isn't about the animals anymore - it's about me and my cravings and my feeling that I don't want to be called a vegan anymore, so I better eat an animal product to convince myself that I'm not one."

    Thoughts, anyone?

    I do hope Banana returns, regardless of the criticism and derogatory comments she received.
    utopiankitchen.wordpress.com

  40. #90
    Kevster
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    Default Re: Vegans with slips

    Well, you can be someone that eats mostly vegan food, and that's fine by me, but it's not being vegan. There is a lot of pressure when first going vegan, there is no denying it from family, friends and other people you meet, but it gets easier, i personally will not compromise my vegan choices, because it is what i believe in, someone has to stand up and show it can be done. That we can live without the appalling animal industry that we have created.

    I haven't had anyone seriously question me about being vegan in a long while, i am pleased when someone asks me about it (vegetarian or omnivore), it is an opportunity to use any one of a hundred arguments that exist for giving up a lifestyle dependent on cruelty to animals.

  41. #91
    Kevster
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    Default Re: Vegans with slips

    Quote Artichoke47

    But a planned relapse and surrendering of the "vegan" label because you don't want the label anymore? How is that a slip? To me, that's saying, "This isn't about the animals anymore - it's about me and my cravings and my feeling that I don't want to be called a vegan anymore, so I better eat an animal product to convince myself that I'm not one."
    Agree with you on this one.

    As for unintentionally eating animal products, at present it is almost certainly going to happen from time to time.

  42. #92
    Seaside
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    Default Re: Vegans with slips

    Quote Artichoke47
    Exactly what is this "slip" thing? To me, it would be a MOMENT of weakness where one eats an animal product, not that they planned for months or craved for months this item. Also, it could be an unintentional ingestion, either forgetting to check ingredients or being lied to, et cetera.

    But a planned relapse and surrendering of the "vegan" label because you don't want the label anymore? How is that a slip? To me, that's saying, "This isn't about the animals anymore - it's about me and my cravings and my feeling that I don't want to be called a vegan anymore, so I better eat an animal product to convince myself that I'm not one."

    Thoughts, anyone?

    I do hope Banana returns, regardless of the criticism and derogatory comments she received.
    I hope so, too. Artichoke47. I didn't wish for her to leave, and I didn't mean to sound derogatory. I wasn't judging Banana, just questioning some of her statements.

  43. #93
    LittleNellColumbia
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Quote rainbow
    I also think that people are being way too harsh with Banana. One of the reasons why people use a forum like this is for mutual support. Going vegan is not an easy process and not everyone can become a total vegan overnight and stick to it for the rest of their lives. The 'all or nothing' mentality can easily push those who are wavering back to the 'nothing' side. If we can't support each other through difficult moments then what is the point?

    Banana has also mentioned explicitly in many other threads that she is recovering from anorexia. Maybe if you have not experienced an eating disorder then you will not understand the significance of what she did, but having the courage to permit herself to eat a 'banned' food is important psychologically and shows that she is regaining control of her life, even if it amounts to a slip from veganism. As long as she calls herself a vegan, there are 'forbidden' foods, and this has parallels with dangerous anorexic traits. If making those foods available rather than forbidden is the safest way psychologically of addressing them then so be it. Making them available does not mean that she will start eating them all the time, it just means that she is making a positive choice to eat vegan food rather than a negative choice not to eat non-vegan food. Making positive food choices is a vital tool in fully recovering from an eating disorder. Maybe you can only appreciate that if you've been there, and believe me, it's a bad place to be, and makes Banana's choices look positively healthy and sane. I think this is more about attitude to food than attitude to veganism.

    So come on guys, show a little bit more support. Is this forum exclusively for perfect vegans who effortlessly commit themselves 100%, or is it for all those who want to be vegan and are doing their best, even if they find it hard? If the former, then even though I personally am 100% vegan, this is not a place I would want to be. Be compassionate please, not 'holier than thou'.
    I totally agree. Some people are being a bit cruel. I understand that this is a vegan forum, and i also understand that it is a place for vegans to excape from the distaste of the omni world. But Banana is recovering from anorexia and i absolutely understand how she is feeling, even though veganism isnt a lack of freedom or choice, PPl who have previously suffered from an eating disorder have severly restrcted their food intake, and may feel as though in order to recover fully they must allow themselves to eat what they are craving. This may not make any sense to most, but thats just my two cents worth. I don't think Banana should be comended and praised for "allowing herself" to have dairy in order to realiseshe doesnt want it, but I do think she is an incredibly brave women who deserves the same amount of understanding and respect as the rest of us.

    Also, im pretty sure the title of this thread is VEGANS WITH SLIPS, meaning that this is a thread primarily for those of us who may of made mistakes etc. If you disagree with this or cannot handle OTHER PEOPLES mistakes, then the simple and curtious thing to do would be to leave the thread, as i am sure Korn created it as a SUPPORTIVE environment for those who struggle for whatever reason. Maybe you could create your own thread called "vegans who do not tolerate other peoples choices" and write as many discrimative comments about how perfect and saintly you believe you are. (this outburst is not directed at anyone in particular )

    Sorry if i have been terribly blunt, but i just wanted to give my two cents

  44. #94
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Quote Seaside
    You are right, Kumem. No one has tried to say that Banana is a bad person. I said that if being a lacto-vegetarian is the best of her abilities to avoid animal suffering, that is great. But we do not have to hear about here on a vegan forum, in multiple posts, and about other non-vegan thngs she and others have done. This is not an isolated thing, but I am not going to make a list here. But my main point is,

    Asking a self-admitted non-vegan not to post non-vegan thoughts on a vegan forum because it disturbs other vegans is not an attempt to drive anyone away from the vegan movement. This is a FORUM, not the real world.
    she isnt a lacto-vegetarian. she ate dairy once in two years. in order to be a lacto-vegetarian you need to be consuming dairy. she was a lacto-vegetarian for one day.

    is it so horrible here that we cant even speak to other fellow vegans of the "hardships" some feel whilst being vegan? i would hope that in real life, if i did what banana had, if i had vegan friends and i felt i was having a hard time with it, i would have these friends to go to, who understood veganism, to say how i slipped up so that they could give me some advice/support to keep on 'truckin' and tell me its okay to get on with veganism now that i had an 'awakening' about it.

    i now know that because some are so judgemental/passionate/opinionated (whichever u would like to choose) i cannot freely speak about my 'problems' with veganism (if i ever had some) like you are all my friends here at the vegan forum. i thought this was a place to go and be amongst fellow vegan friends. people who know what its like to be vegan. how horrible it is that because people are so passionate about veganism (not that this is a bad thing) banana has left and now im sure feels that she has noone to speak to about these things.

    i suppose this forum is simply for giving input, rather than receiving input. i thought the "how do you feel today" thread was for support from fellow friends on the forum, especially if u arent feeling well about something.

    maybe banana talked about it so much because she felt extremely guilty.

    im so dissapointed.
    "you dont have to be tall to see the moon" - african proverb

  45. #95
    Michael Benis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vegans with slips

    Very much agree with Rainbow's long post - and HappyCow's and Foxytina's....

    Sadly, I have seen this sort of thing happen many times before. It hurts people, alienates them and doesn't do either the animals or veganism any good either.

    Please let's try and leave this sort of aggression to religious bigots.


    Mike

  46. #96
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    Default Re: Vegans with slips

    Quote Mike Benis
    Sadly, I have seen this sort of thing happen many times before. It hurts people, alienates them and doesn't do either the animals or veganism any good either.
    Amen Mike.

    Aren't we all just doing our best? Given the fact that our society is founded on antipathy to other species, it strikes me that veganism is inevitably a compromise. (E.g. if you eat commercially grown organic food it will probably have been grown using all sorts of animal by products. If you don't: you'll be contributing to mass extinction and suffering of animals due to the use of pesticides/herbicides. Sure you can grow your own - but how many round here do?)

    I guess if you're a pillar of this forum community it must be a bit of pain in the arse to see newbies struggle nearer the bottom of the vegan ladder. Perhaps, though, you could just lend a hand rather than just boot them off. You never know, that person below you in the vegan pantheon may be doing much better in other expressions of non-violence...

    I didn't always agree with Banana but even trying to be peaceful in this world is a precious commodity. If we're losing people like her, and I suspect we are in droves, SOMETHING HERE IS WRONG.

    There must still be plenty of room in vegan heaven??
    We are saved in the end by the things that ignore us. Andrew Harvey

  47. #97

    Default Re: Vegans with slips

    Well, I agree that some of the posts towards Banana were intolerant and judgemental, but if Banana were more tolerant of others' viewpoints, she would have stayed, instead of leaving because people disagreed with her and/or suggested things to correct her "slip" or behavior towards bugs.
    utopiankitchen.wordpress.com

  48. #98
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    Default Re: Vegans with slips

    Quote Artichoke
    Well, I agree that some of the posts towards Banana were intolerant and judgemental, but if Banana were more tolerant of others' viewpoints, she would have stayed, instead of leaving because people disagreed with her and/or suggested things to correct her "slip" or behavior towards bugs.
    I agree.

    Perhaps the fact is we're ALL prone to ethical lapses and being too judgemental from time to time. In fact they may be two sides of the same coin: I judge you too harshly because I'm mad at myself...? Perhaps ultraveganism is like any other zealotry - founded in deep self loathing??

    Ultimately, we're all fellow travellers here and IMHO 99% vegan is always good enough because we are only human. It may not be unveganly to hate human frailty, our own and other people's, but it hardly helps the cause...
    We are saved in the end by the things that ignore us. Andrew Harvey

  49. #99
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do I get put down???

    Quote happycow
    Also, im pretty sure the title of this thread is VEGANS WITH SLIPS, meaning that this is a thread primarily for those of us who may of made mistakes etc.
    Sure. In a way, a slip is always intentional (if not, it's an accident). So dealing with 'slips' is more or less a question of dealing with what it is that creates that intention or desire, isn't it?There are a few possible causes: habit, pressure from others, lack of availability, being drunk, lack of focus, or, in some cases, cravings because your vegan diet isn't varied enough. To deal with these issues IS OK IN HERE!

    Dealing with 'slips' is something special for vegans: it's a general issue everybody who want's to live in a special way (or want to avoid certain things in their life) needs to deal with. People who decide to practice piano every day have slips as well, or people who decide to watch TV less or get some fresh air everyday.

    It isn't, and has never been, and option for this forum to allow discussions about all kinds of physical/psychological addictions, but to disallow talk about food cravings that conflicts with being vegan. I have both expected these topics to crop up - and also, I'm not surprised that some people find it gross to read too much about them. Thanks to what has happened in here lately, we have a solution: as with all other threads, let's try to posts about certain topics where they belong, and when slip/craving/desire to boil a dog-posts occasionally will appear in other threads (they will!), I can always move and merge a little.

    This planet has some serious problems to deal with, and vegans who occasionally post something in a 'wrong' thread is NOT one of them!


    Whether occasional slips actually is a big problem or not, cravings/slips still may be perceived as a big problem by some, so of course a site for vegans must have room for this. Reading about this can also be useful for ex-vegans who gave up because they felt they weren't 'perfect' enough.

    Eating habits are addictive. A vegan site that wouldn't allow discussions about food cravings would be like denying people with a drug addiction history to talk about their possible desires to start with drugs again. If Banana has been having food cravings for a long time and still felt like hanging around here, doesn't this only show that she feels more connected to 'being vegan' than to give in for her cravings and just leave?

    Maybe it's time to move on, and not judge people on either side for being who they are. This site is definitely (also) meant as a supportive place for people who find it hard to remain vegans. You CAN 'speak to other fellow vegans of the "hardships" some feel whilst being vegan' here!


    Banana decided to leave because she wanted to - she didn't have to. A situation like this may be a learning lesson for all of us: Maybe Banana have learned something about making decisions about what's best for her (or about the constant need in life to ignore (pseudo-)pressure and opinions from others). Maybe I've learned something as an 'admin' about making it clear that it's OK to discuss these things if you want to. Maybe whoever have been criticized for how they have dealt with Bananas bananism have discovered that certain ways of communicating can give someone the impression that they're not welcome here, even if they are. People push each other way without knowing it all the time, and this is not a vegan-only phenomenon.

    i thought the "how do you feel today" thread was for support from fellow friends on the forum, especially if u arent feeling well about something.
    Sure. I haven't read all the posts there, but if something was posted there that would fit better in in a thread about possible vegan 'hardsjips, blame it all on me, not the posters. We haven't had dedicated threads/subforums about the struggles some people have with cravings etc., earlier. Now we have. War is over if you want it.

    We are not meant to agree in everything.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  50. #100
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    Lightbulb Re: Vegans with slips

    its really upsetting to me that banana got picked on so badly for her issues with veganism...

    i think what she really needed was some support.

    imagine if we had all been supportive, and talked (typed) this issue out with her... im sure she could work on her cravings, find something to replace them with...

    its disturbing that some of you think that your opinions are the law for everyone.
    the aim of life is to live, and to live means to be aware, joyously, dunkenly, serenely, divinely aware.
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