I finks theyre happy now?! Good
I finks theyre happy now?! Good
I am not judgemental. Most definitely!
I don't even know what disagreement you're referring to, but I certainly hope you don't leave, Seaside. I have enjoyed your posts immensely on many different topics and thought of PMing you many times to tell you how much I appreciated your generally realistic view of what is "feasible" in being vegan.Seaside
When you are guided by compassion and loving-kindness, you are able to look deeply into the heart of reality and see the truth.--Thich Nhat Hanh
tigerlily, i definitely know what you mean. i definitely wouldnt beable to talk openly here about those kinds of things. i do feel that alot of people here 'attack' other people, without knowing it.
"you dont have to be tall to see the moon" - african proverb
Hi All,
When I first started reading this board, I felt a bit inadequate and thought that I wasn't a good enough vegan and thought the stricter vegans were a bit extreme and would criticise me if i dared say i had cravings or made mistakes but actually I came to appreciate that it is not that hard to go the extra mile and do the thing right or at least to keep the high standards in mind even if we slip up now and again which is no shame in my book - my original plan was to be mostly vegan and just not bother too much when i eat out or when we visit friends but thanks to those stricter vegans I am getting there.
Hope your day is as sunny as mine
Hetfield
Totally agree. But I will say this and then probably leave the board forever since I am sure I will be unwelcome. I have been a vegan for years and a vegetarian for many, many years before that. In all that time, since I was a pre-teen I have never, ever questioned my beliefs and my desire for a truly animal-free/cruelty-free life. Ever since being here for the last few months, I am becoming turned off of veganism. Although I have had some good experiences and gotten some great recipes/tips, I have also seen people say the most offensive things that are truly non-compassionate towards humans, perhaps animals but not humans, and I see people being attacked in ways that are completely uncalled for. It does make me question being vegan, as stupid as some people may think it is, because I do not ever want to become blinded by compassion for animals and turn it into the extreme by acting holier than thou or treating others who do chose to eat or wear animal into horrible people, judging purely on that fact.foxytina_69
I'm sure people will read this and think, well how can you hurt animals because other people offend you? But it's all of these things that have made me question whether I can truly be vegan for the rest of my life. But I guess that is for me to decide and to keep it to myself and the close people around me. I just did want to say that if a vegan finds it hard to communicate with other vegans and finds people too judgmental, etc. it must be really hard for non-vegans to not feel this way.
I understand what you mean Rach, I've felt the same way about some of the attitudes I've seen. Whether you stay vegan or not is entirely up to you, I certainally won't let the more small minded in the community turn me away from my beliefs but I will always try to be compassionate towards fellow humans. I hope you don't leave & hope that you recognise that there are vegans like yourself here who just want kindness shown to all animals, including the human ones.
I haven't encountered one of those "extremists" yet...or maybe I'm one of them you're refering to? Apart from an occasional rude "troll" here and there, I've met only nice compassionate people on this board. I may not agree 100% with everyone (or the tone of every post), of course, but I feel it's overall a very supportive environment.
I'm sure many regulars here are equally afraid of being labeled as "extreme" and "judgemental", especially with new new vegans.
"Animals are my friends... and I don't eat my friends". ~ George Bernhard Shaw.
There are two sides to this. Referring to people as “holier than thou”, “extreme”, or “small minded” is being judgmental as well. It may also hurt someone’s feelings when you refer to them as such. Please try and keep that in mind.
Personally, I don’t have slips or cravings because I’ve found vegan fare to taste much better and I’ve found it quite practical to shop for cruelty-free food and hygiene products. I certainly don’t feel I am “holier than thou” as a result.
You have to remember, people will like other people for different reasons, just because there are vegans would much rather have vegan friends than animal eating friends doesn’t make them extreme, or small minded. That is merely an opinion you may have, but it doesn’t make it a fact.
Similarly when people generally refer to non vegans in a derogatory manor they are, by implication, talking about the friends and family of some of the members here yet they don't worry about that being hurtful. It's strange how these rules seem to shift and change so much.FR
Did I say that people who prefer the company of other vegans small minded? No I didn't, so please don't imply that I did.You have to remember, people will like other people for different reasons, just because there are vegans would much rather have vegan friends than animal eating friends doesn’t make them extreme, or small minded. That is merely an opinion you may have, but it doesn’t make it a fact.
This is how I see it: My friends are vegan because I run in that crowd and they understand my beliefs. I have been vegan for only 18 months and went out with a meat eater 6 months ago. I dont think I would do this again but if I was already in love with a meat eater....then thats a different situation. (altho the thort of snogging a meat eater now makes me gag...but I dont judge others in that situation). I also know a couple of vegans who are brave enough to admit that they slip up now and again (eating the cats cheese treats for example), and I dont judge them that either. I say....do the best we can that suits us and rach please dont leave. This is a board to express opinions on and we arn't all going to agree all of the time .
We most definitely are not. But I mean, let's not allow that fact to take away from the amazingly benificial aspects of this board. So don't go off leaving and such ....saucyvegan
Vegans are people. They are imperfect. They like and dislike others and disagree. We aren't doing ourselves any favours setting an impossibly high standard for how vegans "should" be.
That's what worries me applecrumble, this is a great site but if newbies (to the site & veganism) see people seemingly getting told off for mistakes/moments of weakness they may think that veganism is too difficult and be put off trying. I honestly never thought that I could go vegan but have found it a lot easier than expected. There are certain posts on this site which, had I read before going vegan, would have given me the impression that it would be too difficult and would have certainally put me off joining here in the first place. I think it's very sad to see people leave because they feel others (intentionally or not) don't think they're vegan enough!
Feral, I've seen it over and over, and worse elsewhere, about what is really truly vegan, how to promote veganism etc. And people getting really hung up on whether people should be called vegan.
Anyone thinking of going vegan is, as far as I'm concerned, nine tenths of the way there already - you've sorted out the why, it's the how that follows from that. We don't learn to walk overnight, good for you for getting started.
You're doing it for you and your planet, not a chorus of cybercritics. At times you're bound to feel you're getting it wrong, remember you're getting it almost all right almost all the time and it is about actions, not words.
If an umbrella has a small hole in it do you throw it away and give up on it and get all wet?
Thanks for that applecrumble, I couldn't agree more. One thing I do know is that I'm vegan for life and very happy with my choice.
I have seen some of what you mean, but I try not to let it get to me (though it can be hard). I personally have griped about omnis who show their ignorance about veganism, but I have not decided that all omnis are "evil." (I have had a few discussions on this board about the difference between "venting" frustration and hating omnis--as I don't hate omnis and some of my closest friends/family are omnis--as I have "vented" my annoyance a few times.) I've seen a few posts about how fun it is to "kick the crap" out of another person or how meat-eaters/omnis should be treated like the animals they eat--even on a thread about pacifism! I guess it does bother me, as most of the vegan information I've taken to heart does just as you say and encourages vegans to be compassionate toward people as well as animals and the environment. [Don't get me wrong, I understand the anger of seeing just how animals are treated and have momentarily thought about doing something less than nice about it, but I personally think that would make me no better than the people doing what angered me.] I personally feel there is a link (ethically, for me anyway) between veganism, environmentalism, humanitarianism, and pacifism. Others on this forum disagree, which is their right on a board which generally encourages exchange of ideas. Yes, I have noticed that sometimes people get "pissy" with each other and start character attacks, which I find personally indefensible. (I even briefly got caught up with it once on another thread.) But that's just my view, that this board (or any such message board) should be a place for mature discussion, not character assasination or games of "one-upmanship" (i.e., "I'm a better vegan than you"). In my opinion, no one can be a "perfect" vegan (or a "perfect" anything for that matter), so I just do my best and strive to be the "best" person I can be--including being as close to "vegan" as possible in this world. Please do not judge all vegans by the instances where some on this board attack or belittle others and I certainly hope you will not "give up" being vegan because of how unfeeling some vegans seem toward other people. I've noticed many more supportive and helpful people on this board than the angry attacking type, it's just harder to ignore when you are--or even someone else is--attacked than it is to think of how many positive interactions you've had.rach71
I have noticed quite a few people who used to be "regulars" just stopped coming on this board...maybe they quit for the same reasons?
When you are guided by compassion and loving-kindness, you are able to look deeply into the heart of reality and see the truth.--Thich Nhat Hanh
Well said Applecrumble and Feral. I had a pm conversation with a new person a few weeks ago and he said that went back to veggie for a week or two and then changed back and that he wouldnt dare mention it here. He hasnt been back since. Dont leave Rach.
Saucys right. We are not going to agree all the time. It would be very boring if we did.
Oh tabs thats such a pity, it's a shame that we loose people who are basically trying to achive the same thing as us, a better world for animals.
I agree.tabitha
"Man can do as he wills, but not will as he wills" - Arthur Schopenhauer
On the up side, everyones being really lovely on the "Not vegan enough" thread.
Thanks for the support everyone. I know that there is tons of support on this forum that outweighs the negativity, and that vegans are just a microcosm of society and thus there will be extremists as well, it’s just sometimes too much for me personally. When we start attacking omnis as people and base it purely on animal consumption, it does offend me because I think of my friends who are meat eaters but respect my veganism and get so excited when they find something vegan or a new restaurant they want to take me to because it’s vegan and they think I’ll enjoy it – to me that shows the quality of the person they are, and I cannot imagine judging their quality on meat choices alone.
I guess I also think of myself as a compassionate person towards society in general, animals, the environment and people. I have spent my entire life volunteering and I do it because I care about all living beings, not just animals. I think if we equate animals to people, which we clearly all do, then we cannot forget our respect and compassion to people, which I find sometimes happens here.
Just my opinion. I’ll admit, after last night I was going to leave the board but since you’ve all been so kind I won’t leave, I’ll just stick to certain threads and avoid others.
YAY!rach71
When you are guided by compassion and loving-kindness, you are able to look deeply into the heart of reality and see the truth.--Thich Nhat Hanh
Oh Yaaayy, glad to hear it Rach.
Yay!!! Breaks open bottle of vegan wine. Glad your staying Rach
I have a leather sofa (left over from my pre-vegans days), sometimes pick up fish and dairy for my omni husband when I'm at the market, and have eaten non-vegan items (such as bread with honey) on many occasions. But I don't really mention it here, not because I'm afraid of other members, but because I like to talk about vegan stuff here. And if I would choose to discuss it, I know many would disagree (I'm even against myself on these issues.LOL) and that would be perfectly OK with me - after all - I'm on a vegan forum.
"Animals are my friends... and I don't eat my friends". ~ George Bernhard Shaw.
Oh instead of havin a leavin party we get to have a stayin party!
Yeah, if I mentioned my "slip-ups" (though this thread is about slip-ups ), I wouldn't be surprised by disagreement, I just think we're saying there's a difference between belittling/attacking and disagreeing. I don't mind disagreements, but I try to be civil...kriz
I think feral has a great idea...let's have a stayin' party
When you are guided by compassion and loving-kindness, you are able to look deeply into the heart of reality and see the truth.--Thich Nhat Hanh
Well, I think it's more a question of miscommunication than belitteling and attacking. But we can disagree on that ...and it's OK.
"Animals are my friends... and I don't eat my friends". ~ George Bernhard Shaw.
Noooooo lets fight about it kriz . Maybe we should have a fight thread that people can move onto when there's a heavy disagreement? Vegan Fight Club, no rules and name calling allowed
Do I hear feral in the background saying, "fight, fight, fight"kriz
Actually, I agree that there's probably more miscommunication than belittling/attacking, but there have been cases of outright attacks. (Like a member who told me I was "full of s***"--which was deleted after a few days--and others I've seen against other members, so it does happen.)
When you are guided by compassion and loving-kindness, you are able to look deeply into the heart of reality and see the truth.--Thich Nhat Hanh
feral
"Animals are my friends... and I don't eat my friends". ~ George Bernhard Shaw.
On another non-vegan (but progressive) site, a member have called me all kinds of names and post a link to a book about "feeling plants" whenever I mention anything vegan on the forum. It's exhausting, but I CHOOSE not to get insulted. I'm still there on a regular basis, because I enjoy the other members and it's still a great place to be...I just avoid the "attack guy".
"Animals are my friends... and I don't eat my friends". ~ George Bernhard Shaw.
Yeah, I try to ignore insults too, but it's not easy sometimes and I enjoy this board too much to let someone being cruel chase me off
But here's an article I read a few years ago that explains why it's so upsetting to be "attacked":
Images Show a Snub Really is Like Kick in the Gut
Add Science - Reuters to My Yahoo!By Maggie Fox, Health and Science Correspondent
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The feeling is familiar to anyone who has been passed over in picking teams or snubbed at a party -- a sickening, almost painful feeling in the stomach.
Well, it turns out that "kicked in the gut" feeling is real, U.S. scientists said on Thursday.
Brain imaging studies show that a social snub affects the brain precisely the way visceral pain does.
"When someone hurts your feelings, it really hurts you," said Matt Lieberman, a social psychologist at the University of California, Los Angeles, who worked on the study.
"I wouldn't want to be quoted as saying that physical pain and social pain are the same thing, but it seems that some of the same things are going on."
The study may also show why it hurts to lose someone you love, researchers said.
Lieberman, graduate student Naomi Eisenberger and colleagues set up a brain imaging test of 13 volunteers to find out how social distress affects the brain.
They used functional magnetic imaging -- a type of scan that allows the brain's activity to be viewed "live." The 13 volunteers were given a task that they did not know related to an experiment in social snubbing.
Writing in the journal Science, Lieberman and Eisenberger said the brains of the volunteers lit up when they were rejected in virtually the same way as a person experiencing physical pain.
"It would be odd if social pain looked like the exact same thing as someone-breaking-your-arm pain," Lieberman said in a telephone interview. "What it does look like is visceral pain."
In other words -- like being punched in the stomach.
The area affected is the anterior cingulate cortex, a part of the brain known to be involved in the emotional response to pain.
In the experiment, the volunteers were asked to play a computer game. They believed they were playing two other people, but in fact played a set computer program.
"It looked like a ball being thrown around between the three people," Lieberman said.
Eventually, the game excludes the player. "For the next 45 throws they don't get thrown the ball," Lieberman said.
"It is just heartbreaking to watch. They keep indicating that they are ready to be thrown to. This really affects the person afterwards. They report feeling social distress."
The functional magnetic imaging verifies the physical basis of this feeling.
It makes sense for humans to be programmed in this way, Lieberman said. Social interaction is important to survival.
"For any mammal, all the needs that people typically think of as necessary for survival -- food, shelter, avoiding physical harm -- your caregiver gives you access to those needs," Lieberman said.
So it would make sense that people would evolve to have a strong emotional response to being included, socially.
But there also seems to be a defense mechanism to prevent the pain of rejection from becoming overwhelming.
"We also saw this area in the prefrontal cortex. The more it is active in response to pain, the less subjective pain you feel," Lieberman said. "This part of the brain inhibits the more basic response."
In the volunteers, those who had the most activity here reported the least distress in response to the snub.
It seemed to be involved in consciously thinking about the pain, Lieberman said, but said the area needed more study.
When you are guided by compassion and loving-kindness, you are able to look deeply into the heart of reality and see the truth.--Thich Nhat Hanh
Great article, eclectic. I don't always succeed in choosing not to be insulted, my life is not THAT easy. (I wish, though!) But somehow I feel a little different about interacting with people online than in "real life." Here I can't hear people's tone of voice and see their body lauguage etc., very important aspects of communication, so I tend not to take things as personal. But yeah...when someone calls me a moron, I guess that means a moron, online or offline
"Animals are my friends... and I don't eat my friends". ~ George Bernhard Shaw.
Saucy, are you sneaking you kittie's cheese treats? Do we need to stage a wee intervention?
Seriously that is gross. I can't imagine being so hard up for cheese. It is like alcoholics drinking cough medicine. That is a hard core cheese gotta-have it craving!
thank you for bringing some humor to this thread!!!!!!! it needs itAylish
I don't mean to upset or insult any of you that slip-up and fight your gatos for their cheesy food. I should move over to the drunk only thread.
after midnight, i should automatically be moved there too
i have way to many comments to say on the above subject, but i don't want to be seen as a jerk. on both sides
Yes I am afraid of this and this whole idea has kind of 'shut me up' in a way. Unfortunate.kriz
I recently went to a party and had a vegan spring roll and noticed a weird taste which turned out to be ham or something. I still feel sick at the thought. .
Not insulted here lol. Me? yeah I eat cheese by the block. GAG as tabs would say!!Aylish
Im going to say this quietly as FR my be around, but its like the other week when I thought I fancied quiche? When I cooked it, the smell, OMG, it was awful. Last night the boys told me they wanted spaghetti bol, which real mince, so I was frying the mince - just automatically really - and it smelt really vile and I didnt realise why, so I kept seasoning it with other stuff to make it smell nice and then I realised that it was the meat that was making me gag. I went to the gym after and I could smell it on me as if I had touched it or eaten it. I usually cook meat automatically as I have done for many years, although chicken has made me heave for some time. I told teenagers if they want rotting cow flesh in the spag bol they can fry it themselves. They called me a vegan freak and left (normal behaviour in my house).saucyvegan
I find myself wanting yogurt, then I remember what it is. I would never have it, I just wish there was good soy yogurt options around here. I can find So Nice, which is OK, but really sweet.
And really, the only other thing I miss is not being able to go to a lot of restaurants I used to. Being a vegetarian is so easy in comparison.
Yeah, I dont care what anyone says the restaurant situation is a pain in the arseAylish
Yeah, my parents are always complaining that there are no places I'll eat. I have found a few restaurants where I can eat fairly safely, but they get old after a while. The couple of times I went to places that I didn't know about--whether they had vegan food or not--I'm pretty sure I "slipped" and ate non-vegan foods Both times I was REALLY hungry by the time we went in and the people there didn't know whether any of their fare was vegan. So I suspect the bread my portobella sandwich was made with wasn't vegan, but I ate it anyway. The other time was a pizza place and I think there was some cheese in the crust and I'm almost positive the sauce had Parmesan cheese in it, partially because of the taste and more because I felt nauseous for a few hours afterwards. Now I'm more careful about calling ahead before I go to unfamiliar places.
When you are guided by compassion and loving-kindness, you are able to look deeply into the heart of reality and see the truth.--Thich Nhat Hanh
I always admit when i slip up..im careful! dont get me wrong..but i make mistakes im only human
I also have to admit that I give myself a little bit of leeway in restaurants. Basically that means go for restaurants that are likely to be ok (eg Vegan or veggie listed ones or Indian), make as much of a decision as you can from the menu avoiding fairly obviously bad things but I can't be bothered to ask waiters anymore. They generally know little, care less and just see you as a pain in the backside. This means I will probably slip up occasionally but it also means that I get to have a bit of a life.
That makes sense. Like I said, I usually call ahead when I think about it...that way I'm usually talking to a manager or owner instead of a waiter. I figure they know more--though often they don't (they'll say, "I get it from a distributor, it doesn't have an ingredient list")--and that way I don't piss off the wait person so they don't spit in my food or anythingveggiesosage
When you are guided by compassion and loving-kindness, you are able to look deeply into the heart of reality and see the truth.--Thich Nhat Hanh
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