"We have great respect for the animals we kill"

[Atticus]

I got into a debate with someone about why I am attempting veganism and the ethical arguments for it when i was given a scenario that i didnt have an answer to. The person brought up native Americans and how connected and grateful they were to the earth and all its creatures, yet they ate meat and hunted for their various needs. However, they used every part of the animal, down to the last bone and greatly respected and thanked the animal for their sacrafice. The Native American people are truly connected to the earth and all it's creatures, far more than any other people, yet they DID eat meat. So does this make them hypocritical? I really couldnt say , because i have great respect for the Native Americans and really do believe they cherish the earth and all it's creatures unlike anyone else. What does everyone think of this, i think it is a really good point and now i am confused.

[FR]

As far as I know, they were hunters. They did not run abusive factory farms for profit. They just murdered the animal of choice, ate it, and used the leftovers in some other way. I don't see that as being as cruel, but still cruel none the less. Unless the person you are arguing with eats animals in this way all the time, they have no basis for their argument.

[tipsy]

im sorry to say this, but that was a very different place and time...

the native americans did not "flex" thier egotistical muscles and dominate other species...they were in harmony with the earth and did not take more than they needed and gave back to the earth in equal amounts...

this is my answer to questions like that.

[screamingcarrot]

interesting point, atticus..

my main reason for being vegan is that i have a huge problem with factory farming.

the indians only came into contact with the previously free animal when they killed it, wheras factory farmed animals spend their whole lives incarcerated in horrible conditions.

the indians know exactly where their food comes from and therefore are grateful for the animals sacrifice, also they do not kill unecessarily and they do not waste. they understand the natural environment and how important it is to protect it. in the west most of us dont really know where the meat comes from or reality of the processes involved to produce it.

the indians inherently respect the animal. from the conditions of factory farms and the footage shown on tv recently in that bbc2 doco, it is clear that factory farmers and slaighterhouse workers dont see them as living things, more like 'products'..

maybe you could bring up some of these points with your friend and educate them on the reality of factory farming so they realise its not about cows grazing quietly in a paddock and chicken happily pecking about in the yard.

[Seaside]

But doesn't the need to build up a body of religious belief around animal spirits imply that there may have been a subconscious awareness that using animals might not be right? And the need to show gratitude for the lives sacrificed indicates to me that there must have been the idea that animals, as opposed to plants, had awareness and understanding of what was being done to them, and their spirits therefore needed placating. I mean, I at least have never heard of any group of people who worshipped vegetables. They worshipped human-type deities who were in charge of crops and things, but never the actual vegetable the way that the native Americans totemized animals. It doesn't seem like they enjoyed it, or did it for sport the way modern people do, it was something they thought they had to do in order to survive. After all, there was no other example available. They did what they could with the level of awareness they possessed at the time. This doesn't make them hypocrites. It just means that we know more now than they did then about how unecessary it is to use animals for anything.

[Korn]

The person brought up native Americans and how connected and grateful they were to the earth and all its creatures, yet they ate meat and hunted for their various needs.

If I would kill and eat you, do you think anyone who would say that I were connected and grateful to you/respected you? The Native Americans had a lot of rituals and ceremonies claiming that they had respect for other creatures, but unlike some Eastern ethnic groups/religions, who actually practiced what they preached, and did not kill animals for food, many of the Native Americans said one thing but lived in a way that clearly showed that they did not respect other living beings' right to live. The way Native Americans treated animals (and in many cases, humans) were more barbarian than lots of other ethnic groups we know of. Ie. they didn't just kill their enemies, they chopped their heads off afterwards and put it on exhibition, so to speak.

To write, say or sing that you you respect another being's right to live doesn't mean that you actually do it. If I respect you, I simply don't kill and eat you. If I kill you, I don't respect that you, and not I, should decide wether you should die or not. If you have decided that you want to live, and I kill you, I don't respect you, neither am I deeply connected to you, because if I were, I wouldn't end your life.

All the Western cultures that has attacked, killed and exploited so called primitive cultures in other parts of the world throughout history has done it in the name of God their own religion/God. Prayers and religious ceremonies are often used in association with wars/killing of others, in all cultures, and Native Americans are no exception.

I have the feeling that some brutal warrior tribes - in all cultures - 'insert' some rituals and ceremonies into their brutal actions, only as an attempt to try to hide how brutal their actions are, because deep down they know that what they do are against their own ethics. Maybe they're only trying to fool themselves, but manage to fool others as well.

If you see a person or animal and kill him to satisfy your need for food or other products, you look at this creature as a 'product', just like factory farmers look at 'their' animals. Or - you look at it as a living creature and respect it until you are hungry or want it's body parts for other purposes, then that creature is just a 'product'.

If a potential murderer see a rich man and kill him because he needs his money, he wouldn't get a way with explaining that the guy he killed didn't grow up in a 'human factory', or by telling the court that he lived a free life until he was shot. When it comes to humans, we know that killing is killing, and no person, Native American or not, would get away with theories about respecting the person, being connected with him or which rituals he had performed before he shot him. IMO, it's only habitual thinking that causes some humans to think that an Native American who kills an animal for food is doing something less unethical than a murderer who kills another human being for money, food or other selfish reasons.

[Gliondrach]

Good points Korn.

Whether or not the American Indians were in tune with Nature, were connected to the Earth or were hypocritical, has no bearing on veganism.

I read that, at least on one occasion, some Indians drove a huge number of bisons over a cliff. They were all killed but the Indians could only make use of a small number of the corpses. I don't know if this is a true account, but I have no reason to dismiss it.

There are also stories about the way they tortured their prisoners. I believe that they are the same as every other people and that they have been over romanticised.

Again, what other people do has no connection with the ethics of veganism.

[screamingcarrot]

But doesn't the need to build up a body of religious belief around animal spirits imply that there may have been a subconscious awareness that using animals might not be right? And the need to show gratitude for the lives sacrificed indicates to me that there must have been the idea that animals, as opposed to plants, had awareness and understanding of what was being done to them, and their spirits therefore needed placating. I mean, I at least have never heard of any group of people who worshipped vegetables. They worshipped human-type deities who were in charge of crops and things, but never the actual vegetable the way that the native Americans deified animals. It doesn't seem like they enjoyed it, or did it for sport the way modern people do, it was something they thought they had to do in order to survive. After all, there was no other example available. They did what they could with the level of awareness they possessed at the time. This doesn't make them hypocrites. It just means that we know more now than they did then about how unecessary it is to use animals for anything.

very good point seaside.....this has made me look at it differently...
perhaps we as vegans should worship vegetables. after all they sustain us and give us life. i wonder what the vegetable god looks like. s/he might have a carrot for a nose!

[Kiran]

Taking a life whilst respecting it is the same bull-shit crap given by religious slaughter. The bastards need some thing to base their arguments upon. In the Halal slaughter method, the killing is attributed to god to whom they are very thankful. The slaughter victim must be treated well before the slaughter and this is in the name of respect and sanctity of the holy sacrifice. But overall a lame and daft reason to kill an animal.

People will give any reason to take a life. The argument of the native americans is a similar one. Such communities need some reason to accompany their stupidness for killing an animal.

Atticus, the argument made by your friend is totally baseless. If someone respected nature they must respect the constituents of it aswell. When a man fails to do this... he is doomed.

[rujoon]

I dunno much about native americans.. but if they were to kill their enemies and on top of that chop their heads off for display, that would already meant not living in harmony with the earths creatures. And eating meat doesnt justify their respect either. imo, i find putting ourselves in the shoes of the animals a good idea.. If i do not like what is being done to me, they probably wun like it either. And in this case, if someone or many ppl were to tell me they want to kill me, but they will respect me for my sacrifice, I would still object to it. The hunted animal run in fear of the hunter and die in pain and terror.. poor beings..

[Mr Flibble]

why does it matter what native americans did? If I lived in a situation where I had to eat meat to survive (ie not 2005 in the 1st world where I can just go to the supermarket and buy one of the 1,000 or so products that are vegan), then I would too. The argument that they used every part of the body just doesn't stand up, as we use a lot of the parts of animals for various purposes that they didn't. Does that mean we have more respect? If someone was about to kill me, and said "i have aa deep respect for you", i still wouldn't want to be killed, so surely i'd be a hypocrit to do the same to animals? Killing (taking away something's right to be alive) is still killing whatever spin you put on it, and still unnessecary in today's 1st world for the vast majority of people (some will claim they have medical conditions that require it and as a non medical professional I cannot argue with this).

[FR]

Good points Fib, Ru, Kir, and Korn.

[Atticus]

Thanks everyone for the different perspectives. Now i have some ammunition next time i meet up with my meat eating aquantance!

[rantipole]

I mean, I at least have never heard of any group of people who worshipped vegetables. They worshipped human-type deities who were in charge of crops and things, but never the actual vegetable the way that the native Americans deified animals.

Seaside, no offense, but that's a misunderstanding of Native American religion. The animals were not deified. They were believed to be equals, not gods. Most Native religions really didn't have gods (there were exceptions, most notably the Aztecs, but they were exceptions in many ways), but believed that everything had a spirit. So, although you needed to kill the deer to survive, you respected the deer as a spiritual equal. Yes, you could kill and eat an equal. It's part of the natural cycle--predator/prey, hunter/hunted, life/death.

Let's not also forget that Native Americans and other indigenous cultures needed to kill animals to survive. They did not have as wide a range of vegetables to use to make sure they got enought protein, iron, etc. There were no vegan co-ops, no soy products, no recycled plastic footwear. They needed to use animal products to survive. If you didn't kill enough deer, your village may very well have starved to death that winter. That's a far cry from the current situation we are in. We can CHOOSE to forgo meat and animal products. There were and there still are people on this planet who need to kill animals to survive. We members of industrialized Western societies have the ability to shop at natural health food stores and make choices based on ethics rather than survival.

Cheers,
rant

[thecatspajamas1]

Yes, the native americans are/were a lot better than u.s. culture now in my opinion, but they're not gods... so just because they ate meat doesn't mean we have to. Sometimes they had wars between tribes, that doesn't mean we have to fight wars, do we?

If this person you were talking with actually does emulate the native americans and goes outside and hunts his/her own food and use all the parts, you could take their opinion more seriously. But they're really just trying to win an argument, that's all.

[eve]

and the aztecs sacrificed virgins to their gods. Here in Australia, many aborigine tribes have certain animals as sacred, and they do their dance as though they are one of them. However, this is not the third world, and aborigines who live in the area where I do, kill and eat protected creatures such as turtles, even though a supermarket is around the corner with meat for those who want to indulge.

The point is though, as thecatspajamas1 says, just because they ate meat doesn't mean we have to.

[cafejane]

Just my 2 cents--


Native Americans die early like other meat eaters- correct?


If this person wants to be THAT technical, they've evolved since then like cavemen. A lot of these animals that were worshipped are illegal to kill now.

As far as deer go, that's the stupid southern men that think it makes their balls look bigger. And I can say that because I'm surrounded by them. Men... not the big balls.

And I have a lot of respect for other cultures, but even the peace pipe gatherings were misunderstood. They weren't seeing spirits in the fire. They were HIGH. "You smokem peace pipe, you see many great beings" Yeah, I can do that at home, by myself.

[TheFirstBus]

Like it has been said, what the native americans did has no grounding on veganism today. If they truely did want to connect with earth and care for animals todays native americans would probably go vegan as it is so much easier today.

[Plunder Bunnie]

Ok, we're all looking at this from our smugg little computers, in our heated homes, with a fridge full of goodies that likely, someone else made (and if you grew it yourself, your still in a much better situation) so i think its easy to be egotistical. I love native american religions, i find them very interesting and close to the earth. These people lived in a world were animals ate other animals, and they ate animals, as well as plants, etc to survive. I dont see anything ethically wrong with that.
And for the ceremonies issue, all groups of people do different rituals for different reasons. I beleive they did respect the animals, but saw killing them as a nesssecary evil. They respected them as strong, powerful forces of nature, realy animals. They understand animals more then most people because of our lifestyles today. Animals arent cuddly and stupid, and i honestly think they knew that.
Also, what were they supposed to do in the harsh winters that i experience here in nova scotia. Curl up under some leaves and chill out? Of course not, they needed to stay warm, and be able to go outside, thus, fur.
So far ive heard alot of misconceptions of native american culture, and heard about violent things they have done. Can you name any european cultures that havent even been violent? For any reason? Its a human condition, not a racial issue.
If i was put in the same situation as them, raised killing, and removing meat from animals, tannign hides, and havign to struggle to survive, i would not hesitate to eat meat, and despite what people say now, i doubt they would too.

[Plunder Bunnie]

Like it has been said, what the native americans did has no grounding on veganism today. If they truely did want to connect with earth and care for animals todays native americans would probably go vegan as it is so much easier today.

Its true. I totally agree. If they had the oppurtunites we have, then we could see.

[ai4i]

Native Americans did not analyze the morality of what they did. They saw themselves as part of the ecology in which they existed. As the part of the proverbial trio of "lions and tigers and bears", they were neither more nor less moral than the other carnivores of the Americas.

The point here is that we can do better. Most cultures choose actions and then form a morality to support those actions. What we can do and many of us are doing is to choose a morality and then choose actions to support that morality. Sounds like a more cerebral way to live.

[Korn]

So far ive heard alot of misconceptions of native american culture, and heard about violent things they have done. Can you name any european cultures that havent even been violent?

This is not a pissing contest, you know...

If i was put in the same situation as them, raised killing, and removing meat from animals, tannign hides, and havign to struggle to survive, i would not hesitate to eat meat, and despite what people say now, i doubt they would too.

There are many cultures in the east, (jain/hindust/buddhist), even living in mountain areas, that has been avoiding meat for centuries. Because these cultures has been based on different viewpoints than most native America cultures have, they just wouldn't settle in an area which forced them to eat meat to survive. There are many great things to be said about the native Americans, but they have never been known for wanting to avoid to kill animals.

There is a similarity to people who currently live in the northern areas of Russia, Finland, Sweden and Norway: It has been said that they have to eat fish and meat, because the ground is covered by snow for many months, so growing/collecting plants is impossible. But again; if they would be against eating fish and meat, they would have moved away from these areas, just like humans who are against eating humans never would settle in an area if they would have to kill and eat other humans in order to survive there.


Have you seen this thread?

What I'm trying to say is that I think the reason these native Americans didn't avoid meat, was that they weren't against it. I can't recall having read or heard a native American ever say 'you know, we want to avoid killing animals and avoid animal products, but it was a cold winter, so we had to kill a deer'. On the contrary, most of these cultures have been known to kill animals even when they did not have to, in the middle of the summer, in areas full of eatable plants. To me, this only looks like they didn't really respect animals.

[Hemlock]

very good point seaside.....this has made me look at it differently...
perhaps we as vegans should worship vegetables. after all they sustain us and give us life. i wonder what the vegetable god looks like. s/he might have a carrot for a nose!

Ummmm.....some of us do - ever heard of the Green Man

http://www.mikeharding.co.uk/greenman/green1.html

[Plunder Bunnie]

This is not a pissing contest, you know...

You made a staement i disagree with, whats this about a pissing contest??

There are many cultures in the east, (jain/hindust/buddhist), even living in mountain areas, that has been avoiding meat for centuries. Because these cultures has been based on different viewpoints than most native America cultures have, they just wouldn't settle in an area which forced them to eat meat to survive. There are many great things to be said about the native Americans, but they have never been known for wanting to avoid to kill animals.

Yes, and natives did. Thye were part of the natural order. Ethoncentrism isnt really a good argument. There are some hindus and buddhists that did and do eat meat, a jain i would be very surprised tho.

What I'm trying to say is that I think the reason these native Americans didn't avoid meat, was that they weren't against it.

Of course. They felt they were on the same level as wolves and deer, so why wouldnt they behave in the same way?

I can't recall having read or heard a native American ever say 'you know, we want to avoid killing animals and avoid animal products, but it was a cold winter, so we had to kill a deer'.

Becuase it was part of a culture they were born into. You have the luzory of being borninto a culture were hunting isnt required of you. I have a question. What do yuo think these people would eat in the harsh canadian winters that i myself are begining the experience?

On the contrary, most of these cultures have been known to kill animals even when they did not have to, in the middle of the summer, in areas full of eatable plants. To me, this only looks like they didn't really respect animals.

Ok, your totally generalising. Trying to peg a race as one thing or another is prejudice anyway. Its like saying all Americans hate animals because they torture them in factory farms, but yet there is still a movement in the US to stop this, apart from the mainstream culture there is a subculture of people like us trying to do something. It would be wrong to use large, blanket statements like we're all doing now.

[Korn]

You made a staement i disagree with, whats this about a pissing contest??

Hi, I just mean that the question isn't really if native Indians are 'better' or 'worse' than Europeans... Europeans never had this reputation of having great respect for animals, and if we should generalize, many cultures have had a lot less respect for animals than native Indians. But that doesn't change the fact that people (some native Indians) who consider animals something you can jill and eat for food really don't respect their right to live.

Yes, and natives did. Thye were part of the natural order.

Please explain...

Ethoncentrism isnt really a good argument.

Please explain...

There are some hindus and buddhists that did and do eat meat, a jain i would be very surprised tho.

Sure.... I'm just saying that of your ethics/belief/intuition/religion goes against killing animals, you avoid it, and that most native Indians are not against killing animals.

They felt they were on the same level as wolves and deer, so why wouldnt they behave in the same way?

Most Europeans and Americans (etc) today also feel that they are on the same levels as meat eating animals when it comes to eat meat ("animals eat each others, why can't humans eat animals too???)... You could also say the same about them: "why wouldn't they behave the same way"? Well, they do. Most native Americans do too. All I'm saying is that a human kill animals for food, he doesn't respect them. There is no reason to yse meat eating animals (and 'forget' the animals that don't eat meat) as en excuse to eat meat for humans. Why should we copy meat eating animals and nor plant eating animals? Why should we copy anyone? You mention wolves and deer, and continues 'why wouldn't they behave in the same way'? My question isn't only 'Why should they behave in the same way?', it's also, that, if the behavior of other species should be used as an excuse or reference for human behavior (which I think is non-sense), each human still has to decide which animal he should behave like? Wolves? Deer? Or sharks (baby sharks eat each other in the womb)...?

[quote] Becuase it was part of a culture they were born into.[quote] EAting meat is a part of the culture I was born into too!

What do yuo think these people would eat in the harsh canadian winters that i myself are begining the experience?

In cold climates people have been eat dried food, and also (at least here in Norway) stored plant food in the snow, before they had electricity. But my point is that they probably wouldn't have lived there at all, if they were against considering animals/humans food.

Ok, your totally generalising.

Not at all. I wrote that MOST of these cultures have been known to kill animals even when they did not have to, which - like it or not - is a fact.

Trying to peg a race as one thing or another is prejudice anyway.

This isn't about race, I'm only referring to known facts. I'm not saying that ALL native Americans were/are eating animal foods even when they didn't have to.

Its like saying all Americans hate animals because they torture them in factory farms, but yet there is still a movement in the US to stop this, apart from the mainstream culture there is a subculture of people like us trying to do something. It would be wrong to use large, blanket statements like we're all doing now.

'All' is different from 'most'.

We had an article about Native Indians and vegetarianism here a while ago. It may have got lost in one of the two crashes we've had, but here is the link to the original article:
http://www.vrg.org/journal/94sep.htm

PS - nothing would make more happy than finding out that that most native Americans were against eating meat and avoiding it. And I'm not 'against' them or 'against' Europeans... I'm against looking at other humans and animals as food.

[Plunder Bunnie]

Yes, and natives did. Thye were part of the natural order.
Please explain...

They were more contected with the earth, they moved with the seasons and much of, or the entirety of their spirituality had to do with the earth and earth based spirituality. They were IN the forest, with the animals, they saw themselves as a part of that natural food chain.

PEthoncentrism isnt really a good argument. Please explain...

We are lookign at them from a different culture, and a different place and time and considering out beleives to be higher then theirs. This may have been a bad term to use as our society dosent nesecarily feel killing animals as wrong, but a much larger portion does today then even decades ago.

Sure.... I'm just saying that of your ethics/belief/intuition/religion goes against killing animals, you avoid it, and that most native Indians are not against killing animals.

Yes, but just as hindus and buddhists are supposed to refrain from cuasing suffering, ie, killing animals, and some do, then isnt it the same issue, if not worse? Natives consider themselves a part of the ecosystem, hindus and buddhists did not in the same way, they farmed their animals, so they were never free.

Most Europeans and Americans (etc) today also feel that they are on the same levels as meat eating animals when it comes to eat meat ("animals eat each others, why can't humans eat animals too???)...

I actually think its very funny thast the only time people will put themselves on the same level as animals is when arguing their rights to eat them

Most native Americans do too. All I'm saying is that a human kill animals for food, he doesn't respect them.

My father killed his animals for food, and he respected them. HE respected them enough to make there deaths as quick as possible, he lived on an old style farm. Now he is considering being veggie cuz of the way animals are treated these days. There is a difference.

There is no reason to yse meat eating animals (and 'forget' the animals that don't eat meat) as en excuse to eat meat for humans.

There isnt, but its a cultural issue. Its how they are raised, even if we ate meat growqing up, we didnt have a culture of killing them as apart of our society.

You mention wolves and deer, and continues 'why wouldn't they behave in the same way'? My question isn't only 'Why should they behave in the same way?',

Because we're people and we're ignorant.

EAting meat is a part of the culture I was born into too!

Yes, but you have the luxory of supermarkets, man made clothes, refridgerators etc. Its different, very very different.

But my point is that they probably wouldn't have lived there at all, if they were against considering animals/humans food.

It wasent one generation of natives that ever existed in these palces. These people were born there after the first generation, whos to say the culture grew after that?

[Korn]

We are lookign at them from a different culture

As you suggest, the opposite is the case. I come from a culture that also considers animals food, and I disagree with our own culture as well.

My father killed his animals for food, and he respected them.

This is where we disagree. People who kill animals for food may say that they respect those they kill, but from my point of view, they don't.

To use a parallel: would you also call it respect if a human were killing another human for food? Or is it OK to link 'killing' with 'respect' only when it comes to non-human animals, because animals are 'only' animals?

To most people, 'respect' involves certain ways of relating to someone, and killing is not on that list.

[Plunder Bunnie]

This is where we disagree. People who kill animals for food may say that they respect those they kill, but from my point of view, they don't.

Before i was veg i respected animals, despite the fact that i ate them. My respect for animals made me veg, not the other way around.

To use a parallel: would you also call it respect if a human were killing another human for food? Or is it OK to link 'killing' with 'respect' only when it comes to non-human animals, because animals are 'only' animals?

You can love and respect someone and kill them, sure. Under circumstances. Starvation etc. Its not morally right of course, but im sure it has happened.

To most people, 'respect' involves certain ways of relating to someone, and killing is not on that list.

Most is a good word, meaning not all, meaning your allowing that its a possibility natives respected the animals they killed?

[Korn]

Most is a good word, meaning not all, meaning your allowing that its a possibility natives respected the animals they killed?

Noooo.....

[Plunder Bunnie]

Noooo.....

Yes......

[eve]

Plunder Bunnie, you say "You can love and respect someone and kill them, sure. Under circumstances. Starvation etc. Its not morally right of course, but im sure it has happened."

You're joking, right?

[Plunder Bunnie]

You're joking, right?

Nope. I didnt say i would, or anyone would for sure, but you cant rule these things out. We arent in that situation. Thanks for judging me anyway tho

[Spiral]

A couple of years ago I went to a talk given by a man who was fascinated by Native American Indian culture and had lived with some tribes for a time. He told us about how the idea that they were the first environmentalists was just a myth and they exploited the land, sometimes depleating it completely and moving on to the next area of land and doing the same thing. He also told stories of how they exploited animals and didn't just kill when they needed to, but sometimes killed indiscriminately and used only a small part of the animal.

I, like a lot of people, went to the talk because we were interested in environmental issues and believed the Native American Indians had all the answers to today's environmental problems. We had our ideas shattered by what we heard. The man who gave the talk (I'm afraid I can't remember his name) was aware that many people at the talk were there because of their respect for the Native American Indian's way of living an environmentaly friendly lifestyle (or so we thought) but wanted to dispel that particular myth.

He said the idea that we are used to of the Native Amerian eco-warrior was really started in the late 1960s and was used by the early environmental movement. According to the speaker, yes, they do see animals and the land in a spiritual way, but they also used and abused animals and the land in the past. Just like the majority of the rest of humanity.

After what we heard, a few of us left the talk a bit down-hearted, if a bit more enlightened.

[Pilaf]

It's better to be dampened by sad facts than to bask in warm ignorance.

[Korn]

If i was put in the same situation as them, raised killing, and removing meat from animals, tannign hides, and havign to struggle to survive, i would not hesitate to eat meat

Also, what were they supposed to do in the harsh winters that i experience here in nova scotia

Nope. I didnt say i would, or anyone would for sure, but you cant rule these things out. We arent in that situation. Thanks for judging me anyway tho

I don't think Eve is 'judging', but from a vegan point of view, harsh winters have never been an argument pro eating humans, and since you say that wouldn't hesitate to eat meat if you were in the 'same conditions as them', it looks like killing others (but probably not humans) is OK if it's cold enough, kind of. But they weren't vegans in the summer and meat eaters in the winter. It looks like you defend their killing of animals using explanations they don't even use themselves, which is a little...'funny' - maybe that's why it may look like you are joking? I, for one, have never heard a native American say that they only eat meat when there is 'no other choice'. So why try to impose respect for animals on them which they don't even claim they have....?

[Plunder Bunnie]

harsh winters have never been an argument pro eating humans,

I was saying harsh winters meant natives needed warm things to wear, and since the only vegetation tends to be tree bark etc, they ate meat. I didnt say id eat people if it were cold. Im thinking an us vs, them. We're all stranded on a desert island. Im not saying i would, but saying you wouldnt is ignorant, we're not in that situation.

you say that wouldn't hesitate to eat meat if you were in the 'same conditions as them',

No, i would hesitate if i, the way i am right now, was there. However, im saying if i were raised in the conditions that they were, of course i woudlnt, it would be natural, just like cog was saying how we eat bananas. We know people suffer because of it, but alot os us still do it. How is that different, besides they think they need it to survive and we think it tastes yummy??

it looks like killing others (but probably not humans) is OK if it's cold enough, kind of.

Col is one thing, amoung many.

But they weren't vegans in the summer and meat eaters in the winter.

Thats true. But again, its a cultural thing they were raised in. I dont see how you can judge them without even experiencing anything close to the same circumstances. It just seems egotistical and at the very least judgemental.

It looks like you defend their killing of animals using explanations they don't even use themselves, which is a little...'funny'

Youve never heard a native say they needed animals for the fur they wore? Where do you live? I live in NS and have astrong native communtity all across it. Ive heard that explanation many times.

I, for one, have never heard a native American say that they only eat meat when there is 'no other choice'.

I didnt say they did. I said given the chance they might. also, the natives im talking about no longer exist, if your talking about a modern native, that really dosent count, because they've been raised essentially in the same culture we have, and much of their culture has been lost to euopeans.

So why try to impose respect for animals on them which they don't even claim they have....?

They dont? Thats news to me. Everything ive heard is how much they respected animals, saw killing them as a nessecary evil, saw disrespecting an animal as a huge issue etc etc etc.

[Korn]

But they weren't vegans in the summer and meat eaters in the winter.

Thats true. But again, its a cultural thing they were raised in.

Well, eating meat in the summer is a cultural thing in most places. That doesn't make me want to defend it or explain it as something respectful. If these people really would have had respect for animal life, they wouldn't have settled in areas where you 'need' fur and meat in the first place - and as we know, there are other so called 'primitive' cultures in other areas of the world who are based on different views on animals, who reallyrespect all animals' right to live - and therefore decide that they won't live (or continue to live) in an area where they need to kill animals to survive, just like most humans will not settle in an area (or continue living in that area) if living there means to continue to kill humans for food because it's a 'cultural thing'.

I dont see how you can judge them without even experiencing anything close to the same circumstances.

I'm not judging, I'm saying that they seem to live this way because it - in spite of a lot of rituals they perform - it really looks like their 'respect' for animals were dependent on how hungry they were. IF they would have had a different view on animals and their right to live, they would have moved away from areas that 'forced them' to kill to survive - they would have escaped generations ago. Plus, the fact that they kill for food even in seasons when one easily can survive on plant food, confirms that most of these tribes didn't have vegetarian or vegan viewpoints.

Youve never heard a native say they needed animals for the fur they wore?

No animal - no fur... sure. But that is definitely not the point here.

Where do you live?

I live in Norway, a country which probably wouldn't have existed if those that settled down here a long time ago would not accept killing others as an accepted way to get 'food'.

I don't think we're getting any further with this... IMHO people who claim that native Americans have such deep respect for animals would have sounded a little more convincing if they could illustrate their opinions by referring to lots of 'modernized' native Americans who have now turned vegan or vegetarian because their new lifestyle and access to vegetarian food where they live (in supermarkets and health food stores etc) doesn't force them to kill animals against their will anymore. I have travelled a lot, and never seen a Native American Veggie Cafe anywhere. Lot's of the native Americans lived in areas where plant food was available all year round, they could have developed a rich, plant based food culture if they really would avoid killing animals as much as possible.

Please don't get me wrong - I have no interest in judging or in making up stories about native Americans.They were almost like heroes to me when I was a kid, the cowboys were always the bad guys - of course. There's a lot of nice things to be said about native Americans. I'm just de-waltdisneyfying a little .

[Plunder Bunnie]

There's a lot of nice things to be said about native Americans. I'm just de-waltdisneyfying a little .

Ok, ill end this now, ill resist the urge to respond . And i definitly agree with de-waltdisneyfing it, but around here, people have little or no respect for native people. Its the only group you can get away with being racist too and not many people caring. Its quite sickening actually.

[DianeVegan]

What I find to be interesting in this thread is the idea that there is one type of Native American.

In Washington, D.C. there is an entire museum dedicated to the Native Americans. There are so many tribes that it will take years for each tribe to display in the museum.

I think it's easy to romanticize native americans because of how they were literally exterminated in some instances. While this will never happen now, it would be interesting to see what native americans would have done with domesticated animals, steel tools and guns (all brought from overseas).

From fossil records there is indication that homo sapiens arrived in the Americas about 10,000 years after other continents. There is also indication of some large animals being hunted to extinction. There were no horses, cows, sheep or chickens to domesticate. Some plants were being domesticated. Some tribes were big hunters and others were big farmers. Why am I pointing this out? Because it shows that native americans were somewhat different from each other and so different from europeans that it is difficult to draw any parallels. And since they had no written language, some history and beliefs are now lost forever.

This is a very interesting thread (now even more off topic) that brings up some great points.

[Plunder Bunnie]

Thanks Diane, there are diffently many different native bands, from all over the world, so when i discuss natives i often do it with mi'kmaq native group in mind, because its simply a cultural group ive been fortunate to be reaised with.

[DianeVegan]

Some very interesting tribes of Canada were on display the last time I was in D.C. I think when you are raised alongside a certain tribe of native americans it is easy to think of all people being that way. My mother has lived near native people (on reservations) in Wyoming and Arizona - these are usually the natives she refers to when speaking of spiritual matters. I think it was quite an eye opener for her to visit the museum I mentioned. If you are ever in D.C. do visit the museum.

[Plunder Bunnie]

Some very interesting tribes of Canada were on display the last time I was in D.C. I think when you are raised alongside a certain tribe of native americans it is easy to think of all people being that way. My mother has lived near native people (on reservations) in Wyoming and Arizona - these are usually the natives she refers to when speaking of spiritual matters. I think it was quite an eye opener for her to visit the museum I mentioned. If you are ever in D.C. do visit the museum.

I totally agree. When i talk about natives, imd efending many canadian natives, especially on the east coast, although i think the natives on the west coast where very similar, but im not sure of interior natives. I dont have as much information on southamerican natives, but they were definitly more worklike and one could claim they actually didnt respect animals, because you could argue they didnt even respect people (although i do know before europeans came when they fought wars they didnt fight to kill the opponent, they fought to injure them so they coudlnt fight back, but many were scrificed afterwards.) so theres obviously no global native traditions. It seems to be broken into different segments across the world.

[harpy]

This is a link to an article about native Americans and vegetarianism:

http://www.vrg.org/journal/94sep.htm#native

Apologies if someone has already posted it - I did look through the thread but only quickly.

[Plunder Bunnie]

This is a link to an article about native Americans and vegetarianism:

http://www.vrg.org/journal/94sep.htm#native

Apologies if someone has already posted it - I did look through the thread but only quickly.

Very interesting Haryp, thanks for that!!! I dont think anyone else has posted it, but im unsure too.

[eve]

Yes, thanks harpy for that fascinating article (I can't recall having previously seen it).

DianeVegan, you write that some tribes were big hunters and others were big farmers. Also that native americans were somewhat different from each other and so different from europeans that it is difficult to draw any parallels. You know the same applies to the aboriginal people here in Australia. At first there was the belief that 'aborigines' were all the same. This misunderstanding led to very many aborigines being brought together to one place up north to a settlement, even though they were from different tribes, spoke different languages, had different backgrounds etc.

[DianeVegan]

Eve, I think many parallels can be made between the Americas and Australia when it comes to understanding and treatment of the native people. I don't come across as much reading material on your continent here but when I do there is almost always the assumption that all aboriginal people are one big tribe.

[Seaside]

Is that better, rantipole?

They worshipped human-type deities who were in charge of crops and things, but never the actual vegetable the way that the native Americans totemized animals.

Seaside, no offense, but that's a misunderstanding of Native American religion. The animals were not deified. They were believed to be equals, not gods......

Cheers,
rant

[Gliondrach]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3634544.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/602703.stm

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releas...-ant091004.php

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0923/p13s01-stgn.html

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...formation.html

Here's one about the so-called celts of the British Isles. I saw something somewhere which indicated dna similarities between the Welsh and Basques.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5955701/

[Seaside]

Thanks for those links, Martin. They were very interesting.