I need help - I keep slipping!

[miss cocoa]

Hello!

I'm new - I joined this forum because I thought it might help me keep going as a vegan.

I've been a vegan by name for two years. My family has always been hugely opposed to it - my mother wouldn't stop going on about it, she cried every day, said that I was going to die and that all my education was a waste and brought the subject up angrily at every opportunity.

You'd think that after going through all that I'd have the strength to stick to my guns. Not so. I know why I shouldn't eat things, but it seems that doesn't cut it. I'm a compulsive eater and whilst now I can say, "I'm never eating any more dairy products", I know that maybe in a few hours I'll start to justify anything to myself and turn of my morals in order to eat what I want.

I don't buy non-vegan products any more, but I'm always living with either my carnivorous family or my non-vegan friends, so there's temptation all the time. I know I need to stop my compulsive eating - but how? I have wonderful resolutions ever day but they always fail. What do I do?

My boyfriend is another issue. He drinks milk all the time, as if it were water, which I think is gross. But when I visit him, he doesn't plan places to eat, so I always end up having some cheesy vegetarian option. If I just went for a side salad, I'd seem like such a spoilsport. I'd have a salad with anyone else - but somehow my priorities go up the creek when I'm with him.

Also, last time I went to see him, we were going to someone's house for dinner. He didn't tell them that I was a vegan (he said he had, but he hadn't. He said they always cooked veggie stuff anyway). Unfortunately, it was lasagne. The host said it was made from quorn (which I wouldn't eat normally because I hate eggs). I had a mouthful - it didn't taste like quorn. It didn't have the texture of anything vegetarian for that matter. And then the wife, who had made the dish, came home and said it was beef. I hate to think of it.

Another thing - although I told my boyfriend clearly at the beginning of our relationship that I was vegan, and he was fine with it - didn't even see it as a slight issue, he now seems to have little patience with it. We were discussing marriage and he reacted quite badly when I suggested that I would rather there be no meat in the house at all. He sees it as selfish and unloving. But it's not as if all the sacrifices are or his side. I have to follow him to China for at least 4 years (where, by the way, he wants to try eating cat and dog), and wait at least 7 years before having a child.

Recently, when we were talking about my next visit, he said he had an idea for what we could do - make a chocolate torte from this recipe he had. I asked him nicely if we couldn't make something that we both could eat. He said, "what, like an orange?"

Sorry, that last bit was just a rant.

What I'd really like is someone who is willing to be something like an accountability partner, who I have to send an email daily listing the non-vegan things I've eaten. If there's anyone else in the same situation, it would be great to help each other. If not, would someone be so kind and help me anyway? I know all about the conditions of animals, so sometimes I feel really cruel and unfeeling, but I don't want to be.

Thanks!!

Miss Cocoa

[LittleNellColumbia]

Hello!

I'm new - I joined this forum because I thought it might help me keep going as a vegan.

I've been a vegan by name for two years. My family has always been hugely opposed to it - my mother wouldn't stop going on about it, she cried every day, said that I was going to die and that all my education was a waste and brought the subject up angrily at every opportunity.

You'd think that after going through all that I'd have the strength to stick to my guns. Not so. I know why I shouldn't eat things, but it seems that doesn't cut it. I'm a compulsive eater and whilst now I can say, "I'm never eating any more dairy products", I know that maybe in a few hours I'll start to justify anything to myself and turn of my morals in order to eat what I want.

I don't buy non-vegan products any more, but I'm always living with either my carnivorous family or my non-vegan friends, so there's temptation all the time. I know I need to stop my compulsive eating - but how? I have wonderful resolutions ever day but they always fail. What do I do?

My boyfriend is another issue. He drinks milk all the time, as if it were water, which I think is gross. But when I visit him, he doesn't plan places to eat, so I always end up having some cheesy vegetarian option. If I just went for a side salad, I'd seem like such a spoilsport. I'd have a salad with anyone else - but somehow my priorities go up the creek when I'm with him.

Also, last time I went to see him, we were going to someone's house for dinner. He didn't tell them that I was a vegan (he said he had, but he hadn't. He said they always cooked veggie stuff anyway). Unfortunately, it was lasagne. The host said it was made from quorn (which I wouldn't eat normally because I hate eggs). I had a mouthful - it didn't taste like quorn. It didn't have the texture of anything vegetarian for that matter. And then the wife, who had made the dish, came home and said it was beef. I hate to think of it.

Another thing - although I told my boyfriend clearly at the beginning of our relationship that I was vegan, and he was fine with it - didn't even see it as a slight issue, he now seems to have little patience with it. We were discussing marriage and he reacted quite badly when I suggested that I would rather there be no meat in the house at all. He sees it as selfish and unloving. But it's not as if all the sacrifices are or his side. I have to follow him to China for at least 4 years (where, by the way, he wants to try eating cat and dog), and wait at least 7 years before having a child.

Recently, when we were talking about my next visit, he said he had an idea for what we could do - make a chocolate torte from this recipe he had. I asked him nicely if we couldn't make something that we both could eat. He said, "what, like an orange?"

Sorry, that last bit was just a rant.

What I'd really like is someone who is willing to be something like an accountability partner, who I have to send an email daily listing the non-vegan things I've eaten. If there's anyone else in the same situation, it would be great to help each other. If not, would someone be so kind and help me anyway? I know all about the conditions of animals, so sometimes I feel really cruel and unfeeling, but I don't want to be.

Thanks!!

Miss Cocoa

Hi Miss C

When ever you're about to binge , try to remend yourself of all of the reasons why you became a vegan. Maybe even keep a notebook handy if ever you feel you need a reminder. You say you are a compulsive eater, which is an eating disoreder and i advise you to seek help from a psyciatrist. It is because of a compulsive eating disorder that you may feel an urge to engorge in what ever yout tastebuds desire. As for your boyfriend, he doesnt really sound like he's being very supportive or understanding to me, im sorry to say. He should respect your choices as a vegan, and he should always acknowledge it and alert ppl when you are going out. If not, you should. Always be prepared. If you feel like yo need to have a snack fest, then make sure you have some vegan options at hand. I do feel for you, and im sorry you are going through a difficult patch
But if you continue to consume non-vegan food whilst still suffering from compulsive eating, it would probably be best if you dropped the "vegan" label for now, instead maybe use vegatarian, or no name at all (afterall, its just a label)
I wish you all the best for the future

[Hasha]

It would probably be a good idea to have some vegan snacks always at hand; preferably something low-cal so that you don't end up overeating. So, when you feel like grabbing a piece of pizza, an ice-cream, or whatever, just have an apple instead. And I don't know if this would work, but you might even try carrying around water or unsweetened tea and just drink that when you feel like you need to put something in your mouth. Just a thought...

Also, one of the reasons that your boyfriend is impatient with your veganism might very well be that you're not sticking to it. So he might think, 'She's not even really vegan, so why does she have to make all of this fuss?' Which might make him feel justified in not telling your hosts that you're vegan ('she's not really vegan, so why cause inconvenience to our hosts?'). Maybe it's tough, but that's the way it is: we live in a non-vegan world and if you're not firm, omnis sure as hell aren't going to help you be tough.

As for your mother... Oh boy, that must be really exasperating! Maybe you should give her some leaflets, or indicate some web sites (preferably non-vegan, so that she doesn't see them as biased) that say that veganism is perfectly healthy. Anyone have any links at hand?

[catalina]

Apart from his being uncooperative about you being vegan, the following him to China and the waiting for seven years before having a child are quite serious issues that you might need to look at as well?

[Want2BVegan]

Hi Miss, welcome to the forum.

First off I have to agree on what Cat said about waiting 7 years for a baby and going to China etc....are you sure this is someone who you want to spend the rest of your life with? (or a many years) He doesn't sound very supportive of you and your choices, but like another poster said, being leniant (sp?) with your vegan diet doesn't hold for a strong arguement on his behaviour. He may be confused on what you really want. Saying that, he should still help you and try to support your choices.

I know with my b/f he is supportive either way, he is omni, but really enjoys veggie foods. Thankfully out of everyone I know, he is the most helpful and supportive. We live together and he does keep lunchmeat, mayo and cheese in the fridge on the seperate side of where my food is He also eats salmon once in a while. But for dinner everynight it is vegan, unless he puts a bit of cheese on his foods, and he is totally happy with that.

I hear you on temptations!! That's what I am really battling with right now. I woke up this morning with a clear head and decided to become vegan, again, starting today. I know there is alot of food options out there, and there is no need for me to eat non-vegan foods. I'm re-reading Diet for a New America as well as looking for more pro-vegan books to buy. It keeps me "in-line" when this stuff is in front of me, especially after all the years of thinking it was normal to eat animal products. Cream in my coffee has been a big issue, but thinking about what it is and where it came from has really turned me off of it. I enjoy chocolate almond milk in my coffee now.

I'm with Hasha on the keeping snacks around. I always have some fruit, cut up veggies and vegan luna bars with me. I even make sure I buy vegan chips and chocolate when I feel like eating junk foods. (Not that I'm saying eat lotsa junk! but you have to sometimes hehe) this nearby bakery makes lemon cranberry vegan muffins....they are so good /drool.

My parents also have been opposed to it. Not to the point yours are, my mom isn't TOO upset, but she is worried. My dad goes on and on about how god put the animals here for us to eat etc. I just say "ok whatever you want to beleive" hehe. I try not to bring up my way of eating too much, but if they ask, I tell. Like another poster said, I would print out some really good info on eating animal products to show them. Once I tried to do that they wouldn't even read, they just said "ok, ok enough". Ignorant people sometimes want to stay ignorant.

Thanksgiving is coming up here in Canada, and my mom called me to ask what she should make for me. I told her I'd bring my own main dish, and she said that was ok, and she was going to make a bean salad and spinach salad. Also there is always cranberries and warm buns I can put my vegan margerine on Things have been getting a little smoother with them. They have seemed to be getting used to it. Although, I don't know your age, but me being 27, there isn't much they could do anyways

Ok enough rambling from me! I think it would be great if we emailed eachother to help one another with this. For some people it does take a few tries to get it right, and that is ok. I know deep-down I was meant to be vegan, so here I go again! I'm PM you my email addy!

Take care and talk to you soon. I'll be on here much more now!!

[Litsea]

Miss Cocoa,

Hi! I'm fairly new here... haven't posted much. I can't tell how old you are, but I'm thinking you are a bit younger (than me. anyway --36). My situation is a little different than yours, but I'm experiencing resistance and the like as well. I'm currently working toward veganism, but have some products left to use up before I can completely make the change (will probably just give some away to those who might use it). In my case, I at least have a bit of family support--my sister is a member here and my mother talks about going vegan, but I doubt she ever will completely, based on my talks with her. So, I have loads of support with both of them. On the other hand, I'm married and my husband's family is a little different. On a recent trip to my father-in-law's house, for dinner they ate meat and rice with meat. I think there may have been a couple of tbsp of veggies in the whole meal per person. (I had already thought to take my own meal along for me and my son that time, thankfully!!) My father-in-law argues about how all of the major advancements in society have been the result of meat (I know he's full of it, but it's easier to normally just nod your head and realize that he's 100% mentally disabled, though sometimes I give him a piece of my mind too ). The last time I was over there, he was also joking about taking my son to Arby's or McDonald's with him. I was disgusted and can assure you that those words will come back to haunt him (yep, I'm one of those people! Not saying it's healthy, but it works for me. ) We also recently had my sister-in-law over to see our new house. While here, she was talking about my new diet with my husband and he was saying that he doesn't eat meat much at home anymore. She made some joking comment about "converting" me. Again, I was disgusted. She was the one person in his family I'd figured would be the most likely to support me. You just never know....

Your best defense in dealing with anyone who would argue against veganism is knowledge! I don't know the reasons you chose to give up animal products, but perhaps you could do a little research into ALL of the benefits of a vegan diet. There are a few subcategories: health, ethics and environmental concerns. I chose to work toward veganism after my sister sent me the book Food Revolution by John Robbins. If you haven't read this book, you might consider doing so, or if you have, give it to your family to read. Tell them that it's all you want them to do for you for Christmas this year (or Hannukah, or whatever ). The problem with being vegan in this society (I can only speak for America) is that most people get all of their dietary advice from advertisements and statements distributed by organizations that are trying to sell you things. I've calculated as many as 75% of advertisements during a night of viewing television to include messages that encourage people to eat meat or dairy products! You can't blame people for being ignorant (or can you?). The fact is, there is at least one vegan society still around today: read here. In this country, I've read that meat wasn't consumed on a regular basis until AFTER the Civil War! And veganism has been known and honored in Asian cultures for thousands of years.

I think you need to ask yourself some questions about your relationship... especially since you are not married yet. --How important is veganism to me? --Is it important that my mate respect my wishes for a meat-free house? --Is my current boyfriend truly prepared to live with a vegan for the rest of his life? You might want to think about the stresses of raising children with someone who may not necessarily respect your dietary choices... will he insist on feeding meat and dairy to your children? Would that bother you? I have a two-year old son and my husband is still buying into the 'need' for meat. He does give my son meat on occasion, but it is only very rarely and very little. (I hate it, but am trying to work with him until he comes to see 'the light'. ) My husband works with me, at least, in looking for vegan options when dining out. He's supportive in his way. A part of me wishes I could go back a marry a veg*n man, but I'm confident that my husband will be mostly vegan in some time... fingers crossed. At least he's decided to give up beef and pork products (so he said to me). I find that I can't stand the smell of cheese or meat anymore; I don't know if that's the case with you. This has probably helped with my husband working with me. I've told him that some of his food choices just smell like death to me. He's dreading the next time I'm pregnant (just had a miscarriage a couple of weeks ago) because of the heightened sense of smell that pregnant women have. I'm not looking forward to that either, if he's still going to eat meat around me.

You talk about compulsive eating. Are you getting enough nutrients? Are you taking a multivitamin and/with B12? Are you depriving yourself of 'simple pleasures'? There are many excellent recipes around here that might help you when your defenses are particularly low.

I am not there myself yet and would be more than happy to be an email buddy for you. You can contact me through a pm here. We can set up email addresses if that works better for you.

Lastly, hang in there! Each person gets there in their own fashion and by their own timeline. Stick with it, we're here for you. If any of this post doesn't 'flow', I can only plead that my time is divided between typing and MANY calls for my attention from my son!

Welcome to the forum!

[andesuma]

I agree with Happycow, most definitely...

I didn't get a chance to look thru everyones replies, but... something that use
to work for me long ago... is, stop viewing non-vegan "foods" as.. FOOD.
It's not. It's the reproductive by-products of living beings!

Only view things within the vegan realm as edible.. because to me,
dairy, eggs, meat, it's just not food. it's disease/misery and death.


Good luck!

[miss cocoa]

Thanks everyone!! You're all amazing.

I'm currently shelling pumpkin seeds to snack on tomorrow at work. Keeping vegan snacks around is a good idea - the only thing is, I can't bring myself to spend money on unhealthy food that I shouldn't eat in the first place (I'm a health nut at heart but not in practice!). Mostly I only really want things because they're there. Maybe I should try and stay out of the house more, or at least away from the kitchen!

Thanks for reminding me about supplements. Recently I've been forgetting to take them. I took some this evening - including St John's Wort (veggie capsule) which I'm thinking may help with any emotional eating.

I've thought carefully about my relationship already - I'm 100% with him on the China, indeed, I'm ready to follow him in most things because we agree on most things. I just wish he saw clearly on the vegan thing. I've given him loads to read regarding milk, but he dismissed it as only relating to America (He's fron N. Ireland - happy looking dairy cows all around. Doesn't help). I made him try soya milk. He didn't like it. Unfortunately his tastes are very traditional and he doesn't like trying new foods (and that's just about everything!).

I know I'm doing myself a disservice by not being firm in my own eating. I'm glad I found this forum, because when you're the only vegan amongst everyone you know, sometimes you doubt your own convictions. And then slip, and then think, "well, I ate that yesterday, it doesn't make any difference if I eat this today" and so on.

The thing about my compulsive eating is that for some reason I don't really look overweight, so either people don't really see it as an issue if I tell them, or I don't say anything because I'm thinner than them and they might feel offended. But I know you guys will see it as an issue because it means I'm not eating vegan foods.

That last comment about not seeing non-vegan food as food is great. I'll try and blank out anything that I know is not vegan. But I don't know what to do when my mum cooks something she thinks is vegan but I know isn't (i.e. bottled sauces with lactose). She takes it all so personally, and maybe I'd prefer eating non-food than making her so sad and angry.

One more thing - honey. I find this hard to give up, because the reasons that I know don't seem that strong. I've given it up before, and then people have asked me why and it's stumped me and I go back to eating it. I haven't seen horrific images such as the ones I've seen for everything else. Need to be persuaded again.

Thanks again to everyone - you've all been so so helpful!!

Miss Cocoa

[miss cocoa]

p.s. I'm 20, so 7 years isn't actually that bad

p.p.s. I've never met a vegan guy anyway

[catmogg]

if you're slipping, get a grip!!

[On the Coast]

- First off, two keys to any successful relationship are understanding, and support. You definately need to decide whether or not Veganism is a priority for you, and if so, why? In order for you to project importance, it has to really be important. Education is the key. Educate yourself about the benefits for you personally, as well as those for the environment, the animals, the spiritual sphere. Once you've clarified and understood the reasons why to yourself, it should be easy to sit down your BF, family, and friends, and then explain it to them. Once you've done this, if they are still unsupportive - well, f*ck em.
Now I know, obviously you are'nt going to entirely blow off your whole family, but it sounds like it may be time for you to draw a line in the sand, and expect your parents to see you as an informed, free thinking adult, and one who's wishes, decisions, and lifestyle need to be respected and supported, even if they are not agreed with.
The BF is a different matter all together. The fact is, if he is already giving you grief about important decisions in your life, it wo'nt be the last time. The fact that he tried to blow off your concerns about food at a dinner, and it seems even blatantly lied to you - is pretty telling of his respect for your wishes, and just a taste of what he is willing to do to get his way, above and beyond yours. You need someone in your life who cherishes, respects, and supports the decisions you make, especially when they are different from theirs. You deserve it, and you should expect nothing less, and believe me, their are plenty of good men out there, but in order to have an option to get to know them, you have to get rid of the dead weight (reads boyfriend).
All that aside, it does seem like your biggest issue with support comes from yourself. You really need to decide what you want to do, so that you can enjoy your life to the fullest, whether that be as an Omni, a Vegan, or a Cannibal (though there are other moral and legal ramifications which accompany the latter choice, while moral issues do arise with the former).

Good Luck, stay strong in your beliefs, and surround yourself with supportive folks. As for the people like your family, who will be in your life regardless, demand and expect that they treat you as an individual, as you also treat them the same.

Best Wishes - Have faith in yourself -

[Northchild]

Thanks for reminding me about supplements. Recently I've been forgetting to take them. I took some this evening - including St John's Wort (veggie capsule) which I'm thinking may help with any emotional eating.

Be watchful of your mood/energy levels when using St. John's Wort. I'm bipolar in addition to being vegan, and know that St. John's Wort can touch off an episode of mania in those who have an undiscovered mood disorder. I'm not saying that St. John's Wort is bad, just something to be mindful of.

Bipolar disorder link:

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/bipolar.cfm


St. John's Wort connection:

http://bipolar.about.com/cs/menu_nut...johns.htm?nl=1

[eve]

Yes, be very careful of St Johns Wort as it can react to other medications you may be taking. You refer to supplements - if you're eating a vegan diet, do you really need to take supplements? Perhaps a B-complex is all that anyone needs.

As to your BF, I tend to agree with On the Coast that your BF is a BF (bloody fool)!

[Mr Flibble]

I'm not a violent person, but your boyfriend sounds like he needs a good kick in the nuts. If he can't take something seriously that's important to you, he needs to grow up.

I'll also second the st john's wort thing, and say in general that it's best to speak to a doctor first before going on any medication. Just because something is non prescription it doesn't mean it is safe. Amongst other things St John's Wort has implications for thr birth control pill (regular and morning after).

[sugarmouse]

i agree your boyfriend does not sound as if he respects your choices! in my opinion a guy i am with should love me for who i am , and big part of who u are is your reasoning for wanting to live a guilt free existence!

the going to someones house,espeically soemone you dont know well is tricky.in this case i mayeat round the edges and then pretend i am full off very little.

when i eat out however(which i dont like doing im shy to eat in public anyways)i have no qualms about ordering just salad.i soemtimes carry my own dressing etc-but i dont mind doing that.i explain my diet if i have to..but salad is good for u and everywhere has it.sometimes ppl are tolerant, soemtiems really helpful.never had a bad reaction to doing that.

[Pilaf]

If you were a true Vegan, with the right mindset, you would have no such urges. I commend your bravery and your attempts thus far, but you're not there yet. Mentally train yourself to be disgusted with omnivore culture, and their excuses. Convince yourself that Veganism is the right way, the only acceptable lifestyle for a civilized person. Once you mentally prepare yourself, you will be ready to embrace the lifestyle, and discard any persons from your emotions whom cannot respect that. I easily tossed all of my old friends because none of them takes my new lifestyle seriously. They're not worthy of the knowledge because they never asked me in a polite way why I'm Vegan now.

Get hardcore.. get righteous. You're on the brink of something great, you know. Lose the attachments to your old cravings and the people who hold you down to a lower level. Be a stronger person.

[Mr Flibble]

Get hardcore.. get righteous. You're on the brink of something great, you know. Lose the attachments to your old cravings and the people who hold you down to a lower level. Be a stronger person.

Sorry to sound dense, but that just sounds like lunacy. How is throwing away friendships when the going gets tough a sign of strength? Hardcore? sounds like a combination of weakness and madness to me.

[puffin]

It can be hard to understand why people have such a hard time being vegan. I personally cant relate to these kind of issues. I do try to understand though. Some people have given some great advice here but when others around you give you a hard time it is easier to cave in. I dont care what people think about me being vegan but some people find it hard to cope with people criticizing there choices. Stay strong miss cocoa, if you truely want to be vegan you will be

[miss cocoa]

Thanks, Pilaf, but I'd have to agree with Mr Flibble. The intolerance people have to veganism may be caused my many things. Obviously it isn't good, but I wouldn't dream of losing friends because of it. I'd have to blank out all the things I love about them, all the times we've shared and all the common aspects of our personalities. I'd have to break the commitment that is friendship. I'd be seeing the faults in them and ignoring the fact that there are serious faults in me that I also should change - including a lack of patience, an unwillingness to forgive and an unwillingness to love without condition.

So my boyfriend may be a right pain in respect to veganism (although he doesn't mind my being vegan half as much as most other guys would). But as Christians, there is one supreme passion on which we see eye to eye. Therefore I am eager to love him despite his faults, as he will love me despite mine. There is no person who is in the least bit perfect, but when love has to struggle to overcome problems and comes out safe the other side, it is stronger and lovlier. He thinks I'll probably be able to wean him off meat quite easily though. I think it's quite likely - before I was a vegan I used to like beef, but when I had that mouthful recently, it was absolutely the grossest thing ever and I wanted to spit it out! Eugh!

I know I'm not nearly a 100% proper vegan as yet, but I do have to call myself one because if I don't people will always give me milk, cheese, eggs and other heinous items. Yuck. As it is, saying that one is a vegan doesn't always get one vegan food. It would be worse if I called myself a vegetarian. Especially in France! (But dis is fish! It is vegetarienne! . . . Non, dair is no meat. It is only beef stock . . . etc.)

Today was ok, I didn't have anything non-vegan except for 2 teaspoons of honey. People were offering me food and I almost took a mini flapjack without thinking but stopped myself. I had my little bag of cashews to snack on. There's no time to eat anything proper because we have to work through the lunch hour. But that's good because it stops me from eating too much!

Thanks for all your replies, everyone. I'm definitely doing better thanks to all of you.

[Gliondrach]

I can understand what Pilaf feels. I wouldn't tolerate anyone who made fun of, or tried to undermine, my beliefs. I would avoid them. If they showed signs of being open to discussion I could put up with their company for short periods.

[mophoto]

i can't put myself in your position because all of my friends/family think i am crazy but would never do anything to sabatoge my vegan lifestyle.

when people around me are eating things i once deemed palatable and experiance a second of temptation i use a visualization technique. they may be eating a cookie or whatever but i think of what goes into that cookie and picture myself sitting at my table with a large glass of milk and a plate of scrambled eggs. if i actually tried to imagine eating that i would probably toss my (vegan) cookies.

hell, you're young, go to china, it could be quite an adventure. if you hate it and get sick of you cat eating boyfriend just go home i bet you can find a lot of vegan food in china.

[miss cocoa]

. . . except we'll be married by the time I go to China so there'll be no escape!! lol. There's veggie food in China because of Buddhists monks, but none of the other chinese people I've met have understood veganism in the slightest. They'll eat anything - hence the dog and cat meat, birds' nest soup, sharks fin, bear bile etc. Most of them just don't get the whole animal thing. But out of the cities people are poorer so can't afford to eat meat most of the time.

I love your visualisation technique, mophoto. I must try using that.

[On the Coast]

.....all of my friends/family think i am crazy but would never do anything to sabatoge my vegan lifestyle.

I think this is the key here miss cocoa. You can delude yourself into thinking that your BF gives a sh*t, but unless you've remembered the situations you've told us about differently than how they actually happened, it seems pretty clear that he is able to easily disregard your 'issues' as well as blatantly lie to you.

You say;

He thinks I'll probably be able to wean him off meat quite easily though. I think it's quite likely......

While also telling us;

I asked him nicely if we couldn't make something that we both could eat. He said, "what, like an orange?".......

and;

Another thing - although I told my boyfriend clearly at the beginning of our relationship that I was vegan, and he was fine with it - didn't even see it as a slight issue, he now seems to have little patience with it. We were discussing marriage and he reacted quite badly when I suggested that I would rather there be no meat in the house at all. He sees it as selfish and unloving. But it's not as if all the sacrifices are or his side. I have to follow him to China for at least 4 years (where, by the way, he wants to try eating cat and dog), and wait at least 7 years before having a child.

and;

Also, last time I went to see him, we were going to someone's house for dinner. He didn't tell them that I was a vegan (he said he had, but he hadn't. He said they always cooked veggie stuff anyway). Unfortunately, it was lasagne.........And then the wife, who had made the dish, came home and said it was beef.

So, WTF is really up with this guy? ALso, I would like to point out that his seeing your wish for a veggie house as "selfish and unloving", is a pretty classic manipulation statement in abusive relationships. It's all about making it your problem and not his. Along those lines, I was also pretty freaked out by this red flag;

So my boyfriend may be a right pain in respect to veganism (although he doesn't mind my being vegan half as much as most other guys would). But as Christians, there is one supreme passion on which we see eye to eye. Therefore I am eager to love him despite his faults, as he will love me despite mine.

What the hell is that all about? I was the driver and security for 2+ years for a battered Woman's group when I was at Uni, and you would not believe how many times I heard statements just like that from Women getting ready to go back to their abuser. Except, instead of Veganism, it was issues like going out with friends, or working, or different domestic issues, It's the whole 'it could be worse' sell out. The thing you need to convince yourself is - It Could Be Better.

Whatever is going on - you need to recognise that you're BF obviously has serious issues with Veganism, and in truth, would like you not to be. It seems he is willing to lie, make snide remarks, alienate you from what you want, manipulate you and situations you are in, disregard your views and sensitivities, and joke about something you say is important to you. I do'nt care what else you have in common, if he acts like this on one issue, he will act like this on others, just give it time. I suggest you email him a link to this thread.

Anyhoo, one final point. You stated how it was better for you to say you were Vegan, to avoid getting veggie and omni foods, yet you also seem to willingly and blatantly disregard what it meens to be Vegan. I would suggest that you're behavior and that of others like you, is exactly why there is so much misinformation out there. It is because you are willing to "eat a couple of teaspoons of honey', while calling yourself Vegan, that folks offer veggies fish, and consider beef broth veggie, or put honey in Vegan items. It is all related. It may make it easier for you, but it makes it harder for the rest of us when folks claim Vegan but do'nt live Vegan.

Good Luck.........

Rant Over -

[eve]

. . . except we'll be married by the time I go to China so there'll be no escape!! lol. There's veggie food in China because of Buddhists monks, but none of the other chinese people I've met have understood veganism in the slightest.

Because of buddhist monks? I've met, and lived with, buddhist monks & nuns, and not one understood my being vegan or even strictly vegetarian. Just about all their foods contain fish sauce, oyster sauce, etc. So I simply ate raw fruit with my rice - the cooked veges were 'contaminated'. But good luck.

[Mr Flibble]

a lot of buddhist monks don't see shellfish as being non vegan for some bizarre reason. However it's only in the last century since proper transportation and refridgeration that people living more than a few hundred miles away from the coast have add access to shellfish, so vast areas of the inland is good. I dunno what china is like these days, but isn't religion outlawed in china?

[eve]

No, buddhist monks are ok, but probably have to toe the line as they do in Tibet. There's another group, is it called Chi Gong or something? They are banned, though they just do physical exercises, and THINK.

[abrennan]

It is Falun Dafa or Falun Gong who are banned in China chi gong (gung) is a type of breathing martial art.

Falun Gong practioners have set of metaphysical beliefs and practice meditation which includes some type of tai chi movements.

It appears that the practice is a melange of confucianism, taoism and buddhism. The leader is in exile in america.

antony

[eve]

You're right, I couldn't think of 'Falun'. Not really sure why the Chinese govt is so down on the practitioners.

[abrennan]

You're right, I couldn't think of 'Falun'. Not really sure why the Chinese govt is so down on the practitioners.

From what I can understand the ban on the practice of falun gong started when the followers in China surrounded the

The Chinese authorities were surprised by a Falun Gong demonstration in April 1999, when 10,000 followers of the group massed near the Chinese leadership compound of Zhongnanhai. That protest led to China's ban on the movement. few months after this they banned the Falun Gong movement and started to arrest it's adherents on mass.

The Government accuses the movement of being a channel for western spies and supporters of Taiwanese sepreratism.

There seems to have been a rising conflict between the movment and the govt that prompted the protests that led to the ban

some say that govt is using the movment as a scapegoat for nationilistic reasons. Other say that the movment got too big for it's boots and wouldn't toe the gov't line.


Antony gong

[catalina]

Hmm...does anyone know if other religions are treated this way in China? Is all religion still illegal in China? I used to see Falun Gong protesters outside the Chinese Embassy here in London, because the surgeon who took my wisdom teeth out had his offices on the same street.

[abrennan]

I understand that religion is not banned in China, but controlled by the govt. You can be a christian as long as you practice in one of the state sanctioned churches, same goes for buddhism, etc, ect I guess in a way that could mean that freedom of religion is banned.

Antony technically banned

[rujoon]

Because of buddhist monks? I've met, and lived with, buddhist monks & nuns, and not one understood my being vegan or even strictly vegetarian. Just about all their foods contain fish sauce, oyster sauce, etc. So I simply ate raw fruit with my rice - the cooked veges were 'contaminated'. But good luck.

It depends. Buddhism has 3 main traditions, Mahayaha, Tibetan and Theravada. To the best of my knowledge, monks and nuns of Mahayana tradition do not consume meat.

As for Miss Cocoa's post..heres my 2 cents..
If u think ur choice is right, stay firm in ur decision. I cant place myself in ur shoes much as i dun encounter much hostility probably because of many vegetarians ard, but when i tell ppl i dun drink milk n such, i usually get a strange kinda face looking at me .. but still, they are respectful of my decisions.
I think someone has stated that showing ur mum all the info on veganism can help, thats a good idea. My mum was also against my going completely veg at 1st, but I stayed firm and I show her where I can get my nutrients from and such n such so that she wun worry about my getting malnutrition.
If u think ur bf is the right person u want to be with, then go ahead...... but still.. Stay firm I wld say.
May ur problems be solve soon

[Plunder Bunnie]

Hmm...does anyone know if other religions are treated this way in China? Is all religion still illegal in China? I used to see Falun Gong protesters outside the Chinese Embassy here in London, because the surgeon who took my wisdom teeth out had his offices on the same street.

Since its communist they would tend to push people away from being religious, but i doubt they are extremely strict about it.

[eclectic_one]

I have read about the beekeepers destroying whole hives--thus killing ALL the bees--to avoid the extra work of getting them ready to over-winter, then just starting over the next year. Also, when taking honey out, they often kill many bees, sometimes even the queen. Then, to get a new queen, it is apparently "easiest" to cut the heads off the male bees in order to obtain sperm. Definitely not friendly to the bees

[cog505]

Miss Cocoa,

I'm a bit late with this but have just noticed your post.

Ok, I think some radical action is needed. Firstly, there are plenty of people who are both loving and supporting, vegans and non vegans. Your boyfriend is neither. I can stomach people eating meat, just about. However, eating dogs and cats is plain f**king evil. These animals have a history of very close friendship with human beings going back over hundreds of years. A dog really is a mans best friend... it's different to eating meat in general, there's an intense bond of trust, love and friendship. it's patently F**KING wrong (excuse my french) Even worse, he wants to 'experiment' with it... I would ditch your boyfriend.. a relationship is not about dependence it's about someone who loves you, worries about you and cares for you... this guy sounds like he really doesn't give a f**k

Secondly, and I know some people on here think i'm a bit ott... but you should tell your mum that you're fed up with her whinging about veganism, that you've made an unselfish choice, not for the good of you but for the good of everyone and that you would like her to respect your decision. If she doesn't accept it tell her to shut up. Some people are ignorant and selfish and will never be convinced of anything other than for the need to stuff their faces full of whatever they want to.

If you ever want a nice vegan pudding and you're in south london... send me a message and i'll make you a steamed chocolate pudding with chocolate sauce... A recipe i've perfected and everybody I know thinks is just delicious. Pat on the back for cog


Tell him to stuff his non vegan torte up his dog murdering A***

[cog505]

Antony,

Is it wrong for me to want to kill Miss Cocoa's boyfriend? I'm visualising severing his limbs, smearing him in aspic jelly and setting him adrift, in a small uncomfortable tub, in the english channel with a few million starving parasites.

Is this wrong as a vegan? I would hate to think the parasites might get tossed overboard by a big wave...

Cog

I'll post you the recipe when I get home tonight Ant...

[Plunder Bunnie]

Is it wrong for me to want to kill Miss Cocoa's boyfriend? I'm visualising severing his limbs, smearing him in aspic jelly and setting him adrift, in a small uncomfortable tub, in the english channel with a few million starving parasites.
Is this wrong as a vegan?

Id say its pretty anti-vegan, but hey, it would be more anti-vegan if you did it to some poor dog that didnt deserve it. (no dog deserves it!!)

[moochbabe]

cool (the recipe I mean)

Yeaj i thing it is bad for your instant karma to hate and imagine dismembering people. It makes you suffer even though you think you like it, it can make you say and do things you wish you hadn't.

deep aren't I

antony deep

that was very deep and profound, it makes me not want to be angry at people and wish them misfortune because ur quite right about how it makes u feel, no matter what u think u feel at the time...

[abrennan]

that was very deep and profound, it makes me not want to be angry at people and wish them misfortune because ur quite right about how it makes u feel, no matter what u think u feel at the time...

I think you have had a very important insight. It is important to be mindful of what you think and feel.

Continuing to engage in negative thinking and feeling is detrimental to the mind and body. It's a dangerous habit.

You need so develop strategies to maintain a positive outlook. You need to maintain the appropriate conditions that develop peace and happiness. If you want popcorn you gotta grow corn..

deep Antony

[moochbabe]

beautifully put! mindfulness is something that i have been working on for a long time now, and these days i am a lot better at figuring out how i really feel instead of the reactionary feelings and things, also i think about how something will make me feel so i am not listening to reactionery feelings and ideas...for the most part, but no one's perfect, least of all me. thank u for having such a beautiful analogy!

[JennyX]

Get hardcore.. get righteous. You're on the brink of something great, you know. Lose the attachments to your old cravings and the people who hold you down to a lower level. Be a stronger person.

Amen to that.

It is hard when the people closest to you dont support you.. The only person who gives me a hard time about my lifestyle is my sister and all I say to her every single time she takes a potshot at me is that I dont need to defend what I do with my life to her and she usually shuts her mouth. You really have to show people that you are serious about your beliefs otherwise they wont take you seriously.. If you need help you are more than welcome to email me and I will help you in any way I can.

[abrennan]

beautifully put! mindfulness is something that i have been working on for a long time now, and these days i am a lot better at figuring out how i really feel instead of the reactionary feelings and things, also i think about how something will make me feel so i am not listening to reactionery feelings and ideas...for the most part, but no one's perfect, least of all me. thank u for having such a beautiful analogy!

your welcome

[Tangerine]

I agree with Happycow, most definitely...

[I didn't get a chance to look thru everyones replies, but... something that use to work for me long ago...]

stop viewing non-vegan "foods" as.. FOOD.
It's not. It's the reproductive by-products of living beings!

Only view things within the vegan realm as edible.. because to me,
dairy, eggs, meat, it's just not food. it's disease/misery and death.


Good luck!

Thank you!... you have no idea how that little bit of thought helped me right now... Ive been struggling with the milk and cheese ..Im having a hard time giving it up...(especially milk) ... but I like all of what you said...it was right to the point and perfect- that is something Im going to remember from now on...and for a very long time.

thanks again