Is it Politically Correct to Celebrate Being Male? (formally Masculinity)

[Mr Flibble]

Personally, I wouldn't call myself sexist - I beleive in equal rights for all humans. I also don't particularly feel the need to celebrate masculinity, however I'm no more ashamed to be male than I am to be human.

This thread isn't meant to be a piss take of feminism - although I know some people may see it that way. As a straight, white, middle class male it's actually a serious question that I'd like people's views on and I welcome them from men and women.

I'm aware that in the past (and to a certain extent still) women have been not subject to equal rights as men. This is something I'd like to help change (and actively have done in the past), but I don't beleive that the repression of women is a natural male trait (more that of greed that some men have been able to get away with in the past due to substandard laws and society attitudes) and I don't personally feel guilty for it.

I've met various men in the past who have dismissed masculinity as a bad thing, like encouraging women to think that all men are fickle/shallow/evil etc etc. Why is being male a bad thing? Surely characterising all men (there's several billion of us ya know!) as something is as sexist as characterising all women as something (whether it be bad or good/complimentary or uncomplimentary)? I don't like being told "You're a man" like it's a bad thing. I don't see why that's any less tollerant or offensive than saying "You're black" like it's a bad thing.

As far as 'celebrating masculinity' goes, I don't think that the traditional stereotypical ways are actually a good representation. Not all men like watching/playing football, getting excited about cars and speeding, going out on the pull every friday night, shagging random drunk people etc etc, and I know just as many women who act 'laddish' as I do men. I've met as many women who have cheated on their partners as men and if you go out to your average cheesy club on a friday night in an average UK city, you'll see just as many women drinking irresponsibly as men. To me all those things are a cultural thing not a natural expression of sex.

[GloomCookie]

I think that celebrating and embracing the positive sides of who/what you are can only ever be a great thing.

It's not like you're applauding a Greer style definition of "man" - you're concentrating on what's good about blokes, yes? And there's plenty that's fantastic about blokes

[abrennan]

what is masculinity?

[Mr Flibble]

mas·cu·lin·i·ty (măs'kyə-lĭn'ĭ-tē)

The quality or condition of being masculine.

[treehugga]

Most men I know are wonderful however, in my line of work I see lots of women and children who are casualties of male domination, it's so sad for them and the men who miss out on so much love and respect through constantly trying to dominate. They do all men a disservice. I work for a domestic violence service and believe nothing will change unless society says enough of letting this happen. You only have to see what happens with our male sports 'heros?' to see what crappy role models they make. Yes, there are women out there who are just as bad but the stats for men who are violent and power hungry are much higher about 95%.

[adam antichrist]

Yes as long as you refer to women as "bytches" instead of using sexist spellings. If unsure always just replace vowels with a "y" and nobody will ever be offended.

Ydym Yntychryst.

[abrennan]

mas·cu·lin·i·ty (măs'kyə-lĭn'ĭ-tē)

The quality or condition of being masculine.

MMMmmm that doesn't really describe anything

how about this:

[size=-1]In the social sciences and humanities, a gender role is a set of behavioral norms associated with a given gendered status (also called a gendered identity) in a given social group or system. Gender is one component of the gender system, which refers to "the set of arrangements by which a society transforms biological sexuality into products of human activity, and in which these transformed needs are satisfied" (wikipedia)

I like this definition because in every culture there are multiple versions of what might be masculine or feminine. There's no truth in any of the definitions as they are usually social constructs, not reality.

What is masculine then, having a penis or facial hair? I don't think that is it

I found this which is a definition, by [/size]sociologist Janet Saltzman Chafetz[size=-1], of what is traditionally seen as masculine. I find myself thinking there is nothing here to celebrate.
[/size]

1. Physical--virile, athletic, strong, brave. Sloppy, worry less about appearance and aging;
2. Functional--breadwinner, provider;
3. Sexual--sexually aggressive, experienced.
4. Emotional--unemotional, stoic, don't cry;
5. Intellectual--logical, intellectual, rational, objective, scientific, practical, mechanical, public awareness, activity, contributes to society; dogmatic;
6. Interpersonal--leader, dominating; disciplinarian; independent, free, individualistic; demanding; and
7. Other Personal Characteristics--aggressive, success-orientated, ambitious; proud, egotistical, ambitious; moral, trustworthy; decisive, competitive, uninhibited, adventurous.

So what shall we celebrate about masculinity. GloomCookie says "there's plenty that's fantastic about blokes" but what is it?

Great thread though Mr Flibble

Antony Wowser

[abrennan]

almost all murders are committed by males, almost all domestiv violence is perpetrated by males upon females. Almost all sexual abuse is perpetated by males.

I still don't think that this should prevent us celebrating maledom but what to celebrate.

Antony still wowsing

[adam antichrist]

I found this which is a definition, by [/size]sociologist Janet Saltzman Chafetz[size=-1], of what is traditionally seen as masculine. I find myself thinking there is nothing here to celebrate.
[/size]

1. Physical--virile, athletic, strong, brave. Sloppy, worry less about appearance and aging;
2. Functional--breadwinner, provider;
3. Sexual--sexually aggressive, experienced.
4. Emotional--unemotional, stoic, don't cry;
5. Intellectual--logical, intellectual, rational, objective, scientific, practical, mechanical, public awareness, activity, contributes to society; dogmatic;
6. Interpersonal--leader, dominating; disciplinarian; independent, free, individualistic; demanding; and
7. Other Personal Characteristics--aggressive, success-orientated, ambitious; proud, egotistical, ambitious; moral, trustworthy; decisive, competitive, uninhibited, adventurous.

These are just stereotypes. What people think about masculinity doesn't define what it is.

[abrennan]

These are just stereotypes. What people think about masculinity doesn't define what it is.

I want to agree with you AA but I know many people who think this is what masculinity is. These items are from a sociological study of what people think it is.

What I think is that masculinity may have nothing to do with males. It may be a series of traits that stereotypically is associated with men but it is in no way exclusively the domain of men. Gender is contructed by societies, it is not born into us. There are many examples of this in anthropology and sociology.

I think you could celebrate being men. So what shall we celebrate about that

Antony still wowsing madly

[adam antichrist]

I want to agree with you AA but I know many people who think this is what masculinity is. These items are from a sociological study of what people think it is.

That's exactly my point. If you ask a section of average people what schizophrenia is, a large proportion will say "split personality". In fact gary Francione uses this incorrect definition in his book Introduction to Animal Rights.

Schizophrenia is a form of psychosis in which the sufferer experiences delusions, halucinations of varying forms and a myriad of other symptoms; none of which invlove 'split personalities'.

Split personality sufferers actually have an illness called "multiplicity", formerly known as "multiple personality disorder". What Chafetz findings show are what people associate with the word masculinity. Doesn't make it so.

[abrennan]

That's exactly my point. If you ask a section of average people what schizophrenia is, a large proportion will say "split personality". In fact gary Francione uses this incorrect definition in his book Introduction to Animal Rights.

Schizophrenia is a form of psychosis in which the sufferer experiences delusions, halucinations of varying forms and a myriad of other symptoms; none of which invlove 'split personalities'.

Split personality sufferers actually have an illness called "multiplicity", formerly known as "multiple personality disorder". What Chafetz findings show are what people associate with the word masculinity. Doesn't make it so.

Great stuff AA. So back to the question, to help with Mr Flibbles thread, what are we going to celebrate so we can get started?

[Mr Flibble]

Despite my B in GSCE English language () I'm not a linguist (or even a cunning one), so perhaps the word masculinity is not correct. If masculinity means stereotypes (what I'm trying to get away from), then I've got the wrong one. I'm completely aware that some men, perhaps a much larger percentage than women comit certain violent crimes, but I still don't think that this is an actual portrayal of the average man. In the UK travellers/romany are seen by many as criminals and vandals. This is a stereotype - no doubt some are criminals and vandals, but the few I've met have been very nice people living a lifestyle they want. We've (the UK, not me or my family) also traditionally seen black people as criminals/untrustworthy. The first black character to appear in the popular show Coronation Street was a criminal (a coincidence or racism?).

The list that antony posted are indeed stereotypes that I've heard (although I'm not sure how men can be more experienced at hetrosexual sex?). If the word masculinity does refer only to stereotypes, then I'm happy to go with:

I think you could celebrate being men

Is there a more appropriate word for this?

[abrennan]

Is it Politically Correct to Celebrate Male?

How about that then?

Like I said I think you can celebrate being male without any trouble.

Happy maledom Mr Flibble


Antony

[abrennan]

I just found this on a website, it's a bigt bland but it's a start:


Men truly are wonderful beings. They are full of strength, caring, knowledge, light, and love. They are the perfect compliment to women and help to complete this beautiful world.

[GloomCookie]

almost all murders are committed by males, almost all domestiv violence is perpetrated by males upon females. Almost all sexual abuse is perpetated by males.

I still don't think that this should prevent us celebrating maledom but what to celebrate.

Antony still wowsing

Celebrate the fact that for every one man prepared to do any of the above there are others happy to not only condemn their actions but to fix what they have broken.

[Mr Flibble]

I noticed this thread got moved to everything else from the health forum, where the women's threads are, including "Celebrating Femininity". Why is that?

Actually i thought about starting it in this forum (everything else), but in the abscence of a men's forum I created it here. Perhaps the moderator who did so could explain.

[DianeVegan]

This thread is bringing me back to my college days. One of my minor degrees was Women's Studies.

I think that if we look at the stereo-types for feminine characteristics then there is not much to celebrate in feminity. Passive, weak, followers, pretty, intellectually inferior, emotional, non-rational, etc.

I was married to a man once who had many "feminine" characteristics, yet he was not a good partner. My husband (currently, the one I wish I had met years ago) is certainly very "masculine," yet he has some "feminine" characteristics as well, and he is a terrific partner.

I guess what I am saying is that celebrating masculinity or femininity is rather one dimensional. Being a well rounded person who incorporates both types of traits is best, IMO.

Good thread, Flibble. I think women start women's groups/forums/threads/etc. due to feeling marginalized in certain areas of life and this is a way of feeling support from those in your same situation. If men felt the same amount of marginalization (and could admit it - not a very masculine trait) then there would probably be men's discussions which paralleled women's.

That said, many would argue that the world is filled with so many things that celebrate masculinity, why do we need more? I am of course referring to the people (mostly men) who get credit for success in history, government, literature, philosophy, health care, societal wealth and health, education, the arts, music, etc. Certainly the celebration of women's contributions is increasing but it is such a small percentage.

As the world becomes more technologically advanced, I believe we will discover that "traditional" sex traits no longer fit in many wealthy societies (such as all of ours).

That said, I would like to celebrate my husband's "masculinity" in the kitchen - he thankfully lets me do all the cooking! (But he cleans up )

[Artichoke47]

I think it's great to celebrate masculinity. I wish the men I meet were more masculine. Be proud of who you are!

[thecatspajamas1]

Being male and being masculine are not the same thing!

Male is a gender. Masculine is a social construction.

It's great to celebrate your biology and your body.

But to celebrate "masculinity" in this society means to celebrate aggressiveness, promiscuity, power, and not to mention other traits perceived as masculine such as meat-eating.


I'm taking a gender studies class right now, so I thought I'd add my 2 cents.

[Mr Flibble]

But to celebrate "masculinity" in this society means to celebrate aggressiveness, promiscuity, power, and not to mention other traits perceived as masculine such as meat-eating.

Again you're mentioning stereotypes and assumptions. Also from another country with similar but slightly different cultures. One could describe masculinity as being the stereotypical english gentleman ("A well-mannered and considerate man with high standards of proper behavior" - Source Answers.com), which films from the 40s would have us believe almost all english men were like.

Why is it generally accepted that universally celebrating feminity is OK? (maybe it's not and I got the wrong end of the stick). Surely that's sexist? Or does sexism only extend as far as biology ? (not my understanding)

When you mention "this society", do you mean your society or the 1st world in general? Are premiscuous women masculine? Am I feminine because I prefer using my sewing machine to driving my car?

If we're just to go with the lists of derogatory things that have been attributed to masculinity in this thread, then I'd say that I don't really fit very well into those, yet I don't really fit into the feminine stereotypes either. Personally, just completely and utterly my experience of several hundred uk residents my age, I've met probably as many women as I have men who share these stereotypes, and from my perspective don't view any of these as being particularly feminine or masculine.

[Artichoke47]

I'm tired of hearing the stereotypes, too. Everybody has their idea what "masculinity" means, but don't assume what others mean.

[Seaside]

But to celebrate "masculinity" in this society means to celebrate aggressiveness, promiscuity, power, and not to mention other traits perceived as masculine such as meat-eating.

It depends on what sort of interpretation you put on these qualities. The opposite of aggressiveness is passivity. If everyone were passive nothing would get done.
Promiscuity ensures continuation of the species.
Power is stength.

All these qualities can be viewed positively. Because some men who possess these qualities use them for harm, doesn't make them bad. Lots of women possess these qualities too. If I were passive, and lacked power, I would probably not be a vegan, since going against the norm takes strength and aggressiveness. (POSITIVE aggressiveness, not bullying! )

I have a feeling, though, that men trying to celebrate masculinity is a lot like white people trying to celebrate whiteness.

[Mr Flibble]

I have a feeling, though, that men trying to celebrate masculinity is a lot like white people trying to celebrate whiteness.

We're going off tangent here, but again I'm not sure why this is a problem. Sure, I know a lot of people will initially hate me and think i'm a racist for suggesting it, but I don't see what the problem with celebrating who you are is whether you are a minority or not. Is being a member of a majority group that you have absolutely no control over (such as being born into) something to be ashamed of? If you're doing it as a way of intimidating a minority (such as putting on your white robes, pointy hats and having a cross burning) then clearly that's unethical, but if it's just for yourselves with anyone who wants to come along too invited, then why not? Are you only allowed to celebrate being something if you are persecuted first? Personally I see any stereotype of an entire group (or even the majority of one) and hence what they are allowed to do and act like as discrimination, whether it be based on sex, race, age, religion etc as discrimination.

[rantipole]

1. Physical--virile, athletic, strong, brave. Sloppy, worry less about appearance and aging;
2. Functional--breadwinner, provider;
3. Sexual--sexually aggressive, experienced.
4. Emotional--unemotional, stoic, don't cry;
5. Intellectual--logical, intellectual, rational, objective, scientific, practical, mechanical, public awareness, activity, contributes to society; dogmatic;
6. Interpersonal--leader, dominating; disciplinarian; independent, free, individualistic; demanding; and
7. Other Personal Characteristics--aggressive, success-orientated, ambitious; proud, egotistical, ambitious; moral, trustworthy; decisive, competitive, uninhibited, adventurous.

I don't know. I find some things on this list worth celebrating: virile, brave, leader, independent, intellectual (smart is sexy!), scientific, individualistic, moral, trustworthy, decisive, unhibited, and adventurous.

As a masculine gay male who is attracted to masculine men, I think masculinity is a fine thing. It's all about the dance between the two energies, male and female. Unfortunately, for far too long, society has been ruled by the masculine energy. Anything taken to excess is not good.

I wouldn't say I'm proud to be a man, since I personally had nothing to do with that; my father's sperm did that. However, I'm not ashamed to be a man and I quite enjoy being male.

Cheers,
rant

[DianeVegan]

We're going off tangent here, but again I'm not sure why this is a problem. Sure, I know a lot of people will initially hate me and think i'm a racist for suggesting it, but I don't see what the problem with celebrating who you are is whether you are a minority or not. Is being a member of a majority group that you have absolutely no control over (such as being born into) something to be ashamed of?

No one will hate you for this! People celebrate being all sorts of things - Italian, Polish, Muslim, Catholic, Democratic, Socialistic, Wiccan, heterosexual, homosexual, black, white, male, female, single, married, divorced, etc. Celebrating what you are doesn't mean denigrating those things you are not, it's just unfortunate that some people perceive it that way.

And I think that the topic of this thread sort of invites tangents because of the nature of discussion.

I may not "celebrate" who I am but I certainly give thanks that I was born into a situation that has given me the tools, oppurtunities and traits I possess - because that has made me what I am.

[John]

I don't worry so much about masculinity and all that. Just be yourself. People are going to lose respect for you for being a vegan anyway.

[abrennan]

there are some great posts here since I went to bed.

I think something worth noting is that Masculinity and Femininity IS the result of stereotyping. Someone who is purely one or or the other is suffering from some psycho/social cultural conditioning.

We celebrate Women due to thousands of years of repression and suffering, this is why we celebrate indigenous cultures, being people of colour, being Gay. It is because the mainstream has repressed and destroyed them and now they are standing tall. So we applaud that.

From Diane: "If men felt the same amount of marginalization (and could admit it - not a very masculine trait) then there would probably be men's discussions which paralleled women's." To add to this I think men are beginning to feel marginalised but for the reason that women are getting a toehold and not because they (men) are repressed.

from Catspajamas1: "It's great to celebrate your biology and your body." I think that this is the key to the discussion. Earlier on Mr Flibble said he realised that he didn't mean Masculinity he meant Maleness. I offered the rename of the thread to is it correct to celebrate maleness. So we are not celebrating the stereotype we are celebrating man-ness.

Mr flibble asks: "Are you only allowed to celebrate being something if you are persecuted first?" I have to say no I don't think that is the case.

Anyway what to celebrate about being MALE. Only one post has even come close and that is Rantipole, and that was still celebrating the stereotypes.

My thinking has lead me to this. Celebrating maleness or masculinity seems to me tro be like celebrating your birthday my yourself. That's not much of a celebration. It's best to have someone else to celebrate with you. So the best wat would be for men and women to celebrate together and to celebrate each other, like a birthday party, I come to celebrate you.

What do you think.

and before I go I agree with mr Flibble to move this thread from health IS BAD FORM YOU MODERATOR. THIS THREAD IS A DISCUSSION ABOUT MEN, THIS IS A HEALTH ISSUE, NOT AN ANYTHING ELSE ISSUE!! MOVE US BACK YOU SEXIST BYSTYRD


Antony

[Roxy]

Well IMHO - I would rather see us celebrate our individuality rather than our femininity or masculinity. See those traits only make up part of who we are as a whole person

[moochbabe]

I don't worry so much about masculinity and all that. Just be yourself. People are going to lose respect for you for being a vegan anyway.

I've found the last statement to be very untrue, many have gained respect for me since i have become vegan...

[Seaside]

I find myself thinking there is nothing here to celebrate.

1. Physical--virile, athletic, strong, brave. Sloppy, worry less about appearance and aging;
2. Functional--breadwinner, provider;
3. Sexual--sexually aggressive, experienced.
4. Emotional--unemotional, stoic, don't cry;
5. Intellectual--logical, intellectual, rational, objective, scientific, practical, mechanical, public awareness, activity, contributes to society; dogmatic;
6. Interpersonal--leader, dominating; disciplinarian; independent, free, individualistic; demanding; and
7. Other Personal Characteristics--aggressive, success-orientated, ambitious; proud, egotistical, ambitious; moral, trustworthy; decisive, competitive, uninhibited, adventurous.

So what shall we celebrate about masculinity.

I find plenty to celebrate here. These are human qualities. Are they viewed negatively because men are more likely to possess most of them? What if we just called them Yang, as the Chinese do? I love the Chinese idea of Yin/Yang. They take the same human qualities possessed by all, and look at them as a harmonic balance, rather than a collection of oppositions, as we do.
I think that calling it maleness, or masculinity, or Yang, or anything else is just sidestepping the issue. Some of us possess more of one set of characteristics than another, and its not fair to place value judgements on them just because some people have made a bad display of some of them. Any person who possesses combinations of strength, decisiveness, and morality, for example, can use or misuse these traits. Look at Hitler and Ghandi. Each man had the qualities necessary to become powerful world leaders, but what a difference there was between how these two men used their natural gifts.

[adam antichrist]

I am doing first year psychology at present and when a list of traits is presented evidemnce shows people have predetermined ideas as to to who they describe, even depending on the order they are in.

For example, if someone is described as warm, intelligent, calculating and determined they will be regarded higher than if they are described as cold, intelligent, calculating and determined.

These traits listed trigger our ideas of stereotypes and thus our attitudes towards the idea, not the actuality of what they represent.

[veganblue]

I don't know. I find some things on this list worth celebrating: virile, brave, leader, independent, intellectual (smart is sexy!), scientific, individualistic, moral, trustworthy, decisive, unhibited, and adventurous.

As a masculine gay male who is attracted to masculine men, I think masculinity is a fine thing. It's all about the dance between the two energies, male and female. Unfortunately, for far too long, society has been ruled by the masculine energy. Anything taken to excess is not good.

I wouldn't say I'm proud to be a man, since I personally had nothing to do with that; my father's sperm did that. However, I'm not ashamed to be a man and I quite enjoy being male.

Cheers,
rant

I won't quote the list that is posted by Abrennan but I have to say I feel exactly as rantipole does and everyone else who has said there are things to celebrate in being male or in males around you.

As a gay male I absolutely love everything masculine! The funny thing is that gay men are percieved as sometimes being more effeminate - and some of them are - but you will find that most if not all are attracted to everything that is blokey and 'male'.

What I find amusing is heterosexual males are attracted to partners in floral outfits, pastel colours and lily of the valley fragrances. Give me a virile hairy man in denim with a hard muscular body, stoic, adventurous and mysterious nature and fierce protectivism any day.

I love feminine characteristics in a male too and I love feminine characteristics in females, but I love masculine characteristics in a male.

There are negative aspects to some of the features attributed to both genders; the negative ones in males seem to be more destructive however.

Despite this there is certainly a great deal to celebrate. I know that I do my share of celebratin'. :P

[abrennan]

It's interesting that it is the Gay Men who have the best descriptions of what to celebrate about being male. Mr flibble I don't have a hard, hairy, muscular body, how are you going in the celebration of those?

Anything I think of to celebrate seems to be as female as it is male so males don't own it.

Go you men!! Go you Gay men!!

Antony Celebrating

[Mr Flibble]

The original question was actually whether it is politically correct or not, I didn't say I wanted to

[abrennan]

I only support the politically correct when I agree with it the rest I put down to socio/political disfunction.

After the debate I think you should go ahead and celebrate. (we know you want to)

I thought this was a really interesting thing to discuss

Now think of something else to start a thread about and we'll get that men's area yet.

come on

Men...Men Yay Men!!
big and small
hard and soft
working in the shed
hiding in the loft

Men...Men Yay Men
Hairy and bald
short and tall
muscly and weak
let's here them speak

Join in when you can

Men men Yay men....

[aubergine]

Ok then, no... it's not politically correct.

However I love the way my being male makes me feel, warts and all.

[treehugga]

I think many people see masculine and feminine as opposites - powerful v's weakness although I agree it is steryotypical. I would like to do away with these words and view every being as individual. I don't see why you shouldn't celebrate being male. Women will be out in force celebrating women and their right to walk the streets without fear this Friday at the annual Reclaim the Night march. Women are good at celebrating as they have had to fight hard to earn the right to

[treehugga]

Antony u r silly
I supposed if you have a male thread you will only have to put up with vegan women highjacking it

[FR]

I found this which is a definition, by [/size]sociologist Janet Saltzman Chafetz[size=-1], of what is traditionally seen as masculine. I find myself thinking there is nothing here to celebrate.
[/size]

1. Physical--virile, athletic, strong, brave. Sloppy, worry less about appearance and aging;
2. Functional--breadwinner, provider;
3. Sexual--sexually aggressive, experienced.
4. Emotional--unemotional, stoic, don't cry;
5. Intellectual--logical, intellectual, rational, objective, scientific, practical, mechanical, public awareness, activity, contributes to society; dogmatic;
6. Interpersonal--leader, dominating; disciplinarian; independent, free, individualistic; demanding; and
7. Other Personal Characteristics--aggressive, success-orientated, ambitious; proud, egotistical, ambitious; moral, trustworthy; decisive, competitive, uninhibited, adventurous.

I am not even most of those things.

[abrennan]

I am not even most of those things.

I could celebrate that....bring on the cake

[FR]

I could celebrate that....bring on the cake

Yeah, ditto. I meant, I celebrate NOT being most of those things.

[Plunder Bunnie]

I dont like gender sterotypes. Celebrating your gender to me is celebrating the gender sterotypes your society imposes on you. I find women celebrate being women not always because of their sterotypes, but simply because they are been exploited since about the dawn of time and now want the support and power they have for so long not had, such as racial impowerment etc.
I dont think there is anything wrong with EITHER gender being masculine if you go with the english gentlemen approach. But being purely feminine or purely masculine is a negative thing, as no one should be purely one thing, we all need balance. I have never met a totally feminine women or a totally masculine man, i actually meet men and women that are extrememly alike and the differences are more of the deviant from the norm.
I think the differences between men and women are almost, or totally to do with how we socialize them. For example, i think men who are permiscius are deemed "studs" and women who do the same are deemed "sluts" because male sexuality is considered often more natural and uncontrollable, so there for it just goes back to the "boys will be boys" line of thinking (which is pure and utter crap, and is just an excuse for men doing horrible things)
However, i havent met any men on this thread who i would put into this catergory, so dont get feel threatened just yet!
I personally think men also commit more crimes then women (ALOT more violent crimes) due to a large part that they are taught that its normal, if not positive for men to be more dominant and aggressive. Women on the other hand are taught to be more passive and compassionate.
My point is, how can you celebrate your gender past physicalness when theres really not awhole lot that naturaly determines it (IMO). I am quite offended by the idea that we are totally different, because i think it is an easy and lazy way to think. I am alot like my male and female friends, depending on the INDIVIDUAL!!!! Blah, ill shut up now, i ramble on and on!

[Plunder Bunnie]

I've found the last statement to be very untrue, many have gained respect for me since i have become vegan...

Me too actually, alot f close freinds have a lot of respect for me from it, thats because they know me and know how i feel about it. They cant make the broad assumptions strangers can.

[veganblue]

I totally feel that I get respect from people about being vegan - but then I also make sure that they never feel judged by me *and* still talk about the animal welfare stuff that I do - in all the graphic details.

Testosterone has a lot to answer for in the violence and crime aspect of the gender imbalance. That's not to excuse it - just to acknowledge it.

For me - at times it would be great if there were no testoserone in the world but that's not the answer either.

[abrennan]

Yeah I have come across a strange repspect from the I could never do that crowd when they realise what it is to be vegan. I think being vegan also improves your willpower because you find out you can stick to your convictions in a big way.

I like what FR has said: we can celebrate NOT being the kind of men that have brought the world to it's knees. I think I have always celebrated that in action, in my way, not in my saying.



Celebration Antony

[absentmindedfan]

Ok pychoanalytic feminist here so I apologise if I get obtuse and long-winded...

I think gender is a misconception, and more and more studies are being done that prove that the concrete concept of psychological 'gender' is a contruct used to simplify and categorise what we see around us. It's never as simple as 'you are a man you are a woman', traits we deem as 'male' or 'female' are interchangeable and as mentioned here before no-one who is 100% male or female exists.

I think the male brain/female brain concept is a load of rubbish. I can read a map. I can parallel park. I can chew gum and walk at the same time. In fact if you studied my thought patterns without knowing who I was you'd probably think I was a guy if you were partial to such rigid stereotyping. Similarly I've met men who aren't remotely practical or spatially aware. I think personal possibility lies in individual talent and drive, it has nothing to do with gender. Around 99% of the times I've heard the male brain/female brain example it's been to ridicule and belittle a woman for her inability to do 'big man stuff' like park a car. Partly, if you apply yourself you can learn these skills, and partly, who the hell decided spatial awareness is more important than a supposedly 'female brain' trait?!

What I do find interesting is that when asked, alot of women would prefer to be born a guy. I sincerely doubt this is due to men's natural 'superiority', I would say it's a symptom of a patriarchal society that still exerts itself in the unconscious workings of day-to-day society. There is evidently still work to be done before we can call ourselves equal.

Back to the point though, I think celebrating masculinity or 'maleness' should be common practice. I see masculinity, the concept to be celebrated as:
*a desire to protect and care for others unselfishly,
*an ability to be humble and strong, and teach the next generation that the true concept of 'maleness' is to find your strength and use it for good, and to recognise that everybody has strength in different ways,
*an ability to discard the insecurities and desperate need to prove one's power through violence, aggression or personal suppression, and instead free oneself to creative expressions of all kinds whether seen as 'male' or not,
*an ability to unlock the emotional intensity your are capable of and express it generously and without fear.

Although these are traits men and women could do with working on!

I think we are very lucky to have so many men and women that fit the description above on this forum. You are rare and precious.

[John]

I've found the last statement to be very untrue, many have gained respect for me since i have become vegan...

But you're a giiiirl. What are all these broads doing in the Men's thread anyway? [joke--don't cry]

[abrennan]

But you're a giiiirl. What are all these broads doing in the Men's thread anyway? [joke--don't cry]

that's why we shouldn't have a mens thread John, innapropriate things would happen there. [joke--don't cry]

[veganblue]

that's why we shouldn't have a mens thread John, innapropriate things would happen there. [joke--don't cry]

LOL - what kind of inappropriate things?

[moochbabe]

But you're a giiiirl. What are all these broads doing in the Men's thread anyway? [joke--don't cry]

now how can u be sure that i'm a girl, maybe i'm a very femenine man! ...ok i'm a girl

[treehugga]

You need us here to keep you on your toes and to keep the yin and yang thing happening . I reckon we should celebrate you guys who are sensitive and give a s**t about things most others don't. Be proud of yourselves you fab celebrators. I think being a male vegan could be tricky in this meat orientated masculin world so it's great you stick to your convictions and not the boys club (yes I know it's a steryotype, I also know it exists).

[treehugga]

Ohhhhh.

I just realised I write my replies in paras like an essay.

Must get the hang of this nu techno

[rantipole]

I Give me a virile hairy man in denim with a hard muscular body, stoic, adventurous and mysterious nature and fierce protectivism any day.

Veganblue,

You and I would compete for dates if we lived in the same city! That's almost exactly what I like, although I can take or leave the muscular part.

Cheers,
rant

[rantipole]

Men...Men Yay Men!!
big and small
hard and soft
working in the shed
hiding in the loft

Men...Men Yay Men
Hairy and bald
short and tall
muscly and weak
let's here them speak

This is my new theme song!

Cheers,
rant

[moochbabe]

heehee

[veganblue]

Veganblue,

You and I would compete for dates if we lived in the same city! That's almost exactly what I like, although I can take or leave the muscular part.

Cheers,
rant

Amusing thought! I like some of the stereotypical feminine characteristics in a guy too, though was pointing out some of my favorite masculine ones. A purely masculine partner would be unattractive; you have to throw in;

...the ability to have a decent conversation - communicate with more eloquence than grunts - have sensitivity to feelings - be able to express feelings - can cook - can appreciate handicrafts and things of beauty - understands the necessity of practicality - be able to do more than one thing at once - have a caring nature...

The idea of a person without elements of both masculinity and femininity I find repellant. I feel that there should be some healthy overlap *and* that there are some elements that should not overlap, otherwise you stray into the region of effeminate male and "butch" (for want of a better word) females.

By all means, celebrate one or the other, but don't forget to celebrate both in everyone...

[abrennan]

This is my new theme song!

Cheers,
rant

just a little something I threw together

[abrennan]

There's a party going on right here

a celebration to last troughout the years.
So bring your good times and your laughter
too

we're gonna celebrate your party with you !

Come on now
- celebration
-
let's all celebrate and have a good time

- celebration
- we go celebrate and have a good time.

It's time to come together
it's up to you
watch your pleasure

everyone around the world
come on
it's a celebration.
Celebrate good times
come on
it's a celebration

celebrate good times
come on
let's celebrate !

We're gonna have a good time tonight
let's celebrate
it's alright

we're gonna have a good time tonight
let's celebrate
it's alright

baby
we're gonna have a good time tonight

let's celebrate
it's alright

we're gonna have a good time tonight
let's celebrate
it's alright.

Celebrate good times
come on
let's celebrate

celebrate good times
come on
it's a celebration.
Celebrate good times
come on
let's celebrate

celebrate good times
come on
it's a celebration.

Come on and celebrate - tonight
'cause everything's gonna be
alright.
Let's celebrate
celebrate good times
come on

let's celebrate
celebrate good times
come on !

Kool & The Gang

[grasshopper]

LOL!! at the song.

this thread is soo awesome! EVERY single post in here is phenomenal! you all are intelligent, rational, unbrainwashed, funny, sweet, etc. etc. ok ok ok ok enough with the hero worshipping, its just so nice to encounter people whove got their shit down! You all have helped me immensely by organizing my thoughts.

Edit: Oh and about the gender stereotyping, it is true, it is imbedded in most people's brains. I think its very interesting that when sometimes i play games online (ok now im extremely embarassed) where you can chat, i chat really fast and act stupid and everyone always calls me a he which im not. On the other hand my brother doesnt really say much and always says thank you and stuff like that and hes always getting called a she. So i think thats pretty interesting. At first, i was even brainwashed myself, thinking all the obnoxious people were males (deeply deeply deeply sorry, i love you males) but thankfully i grew out of it.