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Thread: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

  1. #1

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    Default The Vegan Organic Network

    Grow your own veganic fruit & veg. A UK based site

    http://www.veganorganic.net/

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    Default Can you help? Magazine Editor wanted

    From www.veganvillage.co.uk

    The Vegan Organic Network produce Growing Green International, an established and respected twice yearly magazine, usually of 40 pages, dealing with practical growing, ethics and similar topics. We need someone to take over the Editorship, to seek and help to choose contributions and pilot everything through production. There would be a small editorial group. Other people presently do layout, cover design, technical advice, proofing of material and advise on pictures and there would be the fullest help in getting started. This is an opportunity to use creative skills in helping to stop the cruelty and environmental damage resulting from animal and chemical farming. More information is readily available... please contact p.a.white@ukgateway.net

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    Default Re: The Vegan Organic Network

    Quote *M*
    Grow your own veganic fruit & veg. A UK based site

    http://www.veganorganic.net/
    They will be at the Veganforum meetup @ Heart of England Vegan Festival 2005. Patrick Brown is one of the speakers on the day.

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    Default From www.veganvillage.co.uk

    TWO GREAT EVENTS ORGANISED BY VEGAN-ORGANIC NETWORK

    Interested in growing your own veg the vegan way, saving the planet through animal free agriculture or just an interesting and different day out? 27 August, visit to Welsh College of Horticulture, Mold, N Wales. This location is now growing on animal free lines and it's a wonderful site. Open to all - bring your friends. Day includes a short presentation and guided tour; tea/coffee provided; 1pm to 4pm-ish; 18 (9 concessions) - please book early to avoid disappointment!

    Please contact Patrick Browne email: veganorganic@riseup.net.



    Saturday 1 October visit to Hardwick Market Gardens near Reading. Commencing at 1pm. Iain Tolhurst's acclaimed market garden is an outstanding example of stockfree-organics and our visit is an unmissable event. Cost is 18 (9 concessions) including light refreshments.

    To reserve your place, please send full payment before 20 September (payable to VON) to Graham Cole at Coach House, Holywell, Swanmore, Southampton SO32 2QE, email: veganrainbows@tiscali.co.uk

  5. #5
    mango woman
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    Default Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    I came across this site and I was very nervous to read through it..

    "Most organic fertilizers are animal based ( bone meal & kiln dried blood & animal manure's). Do we want this in our food? Did the blood and bones come from (mad cows) downer cows? Are animal manure's full of antibiotics and pesticides? We can grow healthy vegan ( free of blood, bone & fish emulsion ) organic food with green manure cover crops. A green manure cover crop is natural vegetation turned into the soil in place of other fertilizers."


    Organic Farming NOT truly vegan??

    Does anyone know the truth behind this??? What a horrible thing to read about!
    Last edited by flutterby; Nov 20th, 2005 at 01:15 PM. Reason: Merged with existing thread about vegan organic.

  6. #6
    told me to Mr Flibble's Avatar
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    Default Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    yes, that's why we have the term veganic - organic and vegan

    There's more info here
    "Mr Flibble - forum corruptor of innocents!!" - Hemlock

  7. #7
    FR
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    Default Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    I wonder if there are any prodcuts available from veganic growers in any stores in the U.S.?

    I didn't know that farmers use slaughterhouse by-products to grow organic food. I guess there isn't any way to truly be vegan aside from growing everything yourself.

  8. #8
    Pilaf
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    Default Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    Ugh... just another reason for me to move to that Farm community....

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    mango woman
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    Thumbs down Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    I know!!!!! this sucks! I'm looking into veganic though, thanks Mr Fibble! . We'll see what i can dig up.


    Sigh.. we just can't win! I can't wait until I transfer out of WI and go somewhere where i can have a yard! I'm going to grow as much as i can on my own!

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    Default Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    I'm pretty sure that BIODYNAMIC farming means that they have used blood an bone meal in the soil.

    I don't buy things that say biodynamic on em for that reason

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    Default Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    Quote abrennan
    I'm pretty sure that BIODYNAMIC farming means that they have used blood an bone meal in the soil.

    I don't buy things that say biodynamic on em for that reason
    eurgh, you're right! I didn't know that

    just been looking at this

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    Default Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    Quote twinkle
    eurgh, you're right! I didn't know that

    just been looking at this
    MMMmmm it's actually worse than I thought

    if you've been buying Biodynamic foods I think you should click on that link

    pepare to be enlightened

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    mango woman
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    Default Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    ewwwwwwwwwwwwwww! How repulsive! I haven't come across either of those logos on any of my food though.. ew ew ew ew ew i just knew organic had to be too good to be true. sigh...

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    Default Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    It's biodynamic that means there's animal parts used. I read about what they get up to years go

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    Default Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    I've certainly not bought organic or biodynamic, because I have no desire to eat food that has been nurtured on the by-products of abattoirs. However, I do understand that it is a choice between that and conventional farming that uses chemicals. Of course I can do without chemicals in my life, but it just isn't possible, so we have to make the choice between two evils. If you live in the UK where there are veganic farms, that is great, or if you have a piece of garden in which to grow foods without chemicals, that is also great, but as I live in a flat, and there are no veganic vegies around, I must make do with conventionally grown vegies.
    Eve

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    Default Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    i wish i knew how to grow veggies (im going to give it a go next summer!)
    "you dont have to be tall to see the moon" - african proverb

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    Default Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    Quote eve
    I've certainly not bought organic or biodynamic, because I have no desire to eat food that has been nurtured on the by-products of abattoirs. However, I do understand that it is a choice between that and conventional farming that uses chemicals. Of course I can do without chemicals in my life, but it just isn't possible, so we have to make the choice between two evils. If you live in the UK where there are veganic farms, that is great, or if you have a piece of garden in which to grow foods without chemicals, that is also great, but as I live in a flat, and there are no veganic vegies around, I must make do with conventionally grown vegies.
    just wondering............... are non organic produce grown with or without animal by-products.

    i am so confused and frustrated. the more i know the less i want to know. too late to turn back now

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    Default Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    non organic produce is grown with chemicals, which surely arent vegan.
    "you dont have to be tall to see the moon" - african proverb

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    Default Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    aren't chemicals synthetic?
    Eve

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    Default Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    i would imagine they tested alot of animals with those chemicals before making them available to use for gardening. and theres probably a few animal products of some wierd sort in them. i dont know for sure, but usually with something such as chemicals, they are tested alot on animals.
    "you dont have to be tall to see the moon" - african proverb

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    Default Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    I'm sure you are right foxytina, it's one of these sad things we live with in the world today, not always knowing how our medications are tested, how chemicals are tested etc, though mainly anything that is ingested, such as foods and medications, generally *have* to be tested on animals. What a world we live in!
    Eve

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    Default Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    sometimes conventional apples, oranges etc are coated in a wax, which may or may not be animal derived to give a "nice" shiny appearance.

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    Default Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    reminds me of something my mother used to say regarding how well we did in school eve:

    "all u can do is your best. you cant do any better than your best. do your best and ill be proud of you!"

    so i guess the same applies to veganism.
    "you dont have to be tall to see the moon" - african proverb

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    mango woman
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    Default Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    Quote foxytina_69
    reminds me of something my mother used to say regarding how well we did in school eve:

    "all u can do is your best. you cant do any better than your best. do your best and ill be proud of you!"

    so i guess the same applies to veganism.

    Ditto. I completely agree with the wisdom and optimism of your mum. We can only do our best.. We may get frustrated at times but really all we can do is our best. Eventually we may get the opportunity to change what frustrates us.. whether it's buying veganic produce [if available], growing even some or all our own, or just taking advantage of local farmers markets when in season. As time progresses opportunities arise and certain things become available. It just sucks to know stuff like this that we have no way of controlling/changing!!! I almost wish i didn't know!

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    Default Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    Tina, your mother sounds like a wonderful woman. And she's absolutely correct.

    Farming takes a toll on the earth and animals, no matter what way you look at it. 6.3 billion mouths are a lot to feed and intensive farming won't go away until we do.

    Synthetic pesticides and fertilizers may be "vegan" until you consider that they kill birds and insects. They also get into streams and kill fish. Remember DDT? It almost wiped out the American bald eagle. And think about the workers who must come into contact with these chemicals in the fields. Do you think anyone is doing a 20 year follow up study on migrant workers and the health problems they may have related to chemical exposure?

    Organic farms definitely use manure and may pass on e. coli and listeria if the animals were carrying those germs. This is the reason why you should always wash your salad greens (even the triple-washed ones that come in bags).

    I don't like the idea of using animal products for farming. However, I do agree with using by-products of the fish/meat industry if that is the only option besides chemicals. Large vats of manure are toxic when they spill their contents into surrounding bodies of water. I would rather see this manure spread out in a way that nourishes the soil rather than poisoning the streams.

    I could go on and on. We have so many humans on the earth that do not have access to farmable land. Cities are going to get more populated and intensive farming on the surrounding land is going to continue in order to feed these people. So the fertilizer and pesticide companies will continue to find products to supply to farmers, be they synthetic or animal by-product. This is unfortunately a sad reality for those of us who live in cities and don't have veganic farmers. And lets face it, no one eats 100% veganic food unless he/she only eats what comes from those farms. We're all faced with choosing the lesser of two evils.

    Tina's mom said it best.
    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds. - Albert Einstein

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    Default Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    I don't know where to get veganic from...plus I can't afford it at the moment.
    "It's not that people suddenly start breeding like rabbits; it's just that people stopped dropping like flies" - population explosion

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    Default Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    In any gardening shop you will see huge sacks of blood & bone, for home gardeners to use organically.

    On an abc tv program yesterday, called 'Landline' there was a discussion about organic v conventional, between three people with varying points of view. It was interesting to learn that although here in Oz there appears to be an increasing demand for organically grown products, yet organic accounts for only 1 percent of the total value - and of that value, 80 percent is for organic meat!
    Eve

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    mango woman
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    Default Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    I've never actually seen products with "biodynamic" on them. Usually i can't afford the organic so i just buy the regular.. i guess synthetic chemicals sound better than animal remains to me? It very well is choosing between two evils. Hmm.. somehow I am always faced with these situations.

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    Default Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    I think we're lucky here in Australia. It's fairly easy to get organic fruit and veg.
    I grow some using green manure (green crops put back into the soil) and the veg love me for it. You can even have a small organic garden in pots or a large box and grow lettuce, tomatoes, silverbeet, herbs etc.

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    Default Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    You certainly don't need animal products to grow organically.

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    Default Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    Liquid kelp is a fantastic veganic fertilizer. It has done wonders for my garden.
    Don't blame me for avian flu :(

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    Default Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    So not buying organic at all is better?
    "It's not that people suddenly start breeding like rabbits; it's just that people stopped dropping like flies" - population explosion

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    Default Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    So not buying organic at all is better?
    I hope you won't form that conclusion xwitchymagicx...modern, chemical-based agriculture is anathema to veganism. Wrecking our ecosystem through non-organic food production will cause more animal (and human animal) casualties than veganism could ever save.

    The collateral damage from 'conventional' chemical-based agriculture is horrific. Synthetic pesticides obliterate everything in their path. Organic farmers are only allowed to use selective, non-persistent chemicals (like derris and soft soap). Of course, this is still unacceptable to us, just like their use of animal by-products - but the better of two evils.

    By way of example, in the UK non-organically grown potato crops are sprayed with sulphuric acid to remove the haulm (green top growth) merely to make harvesting the tubers easier. I can't bear to think of the fate of any wildlife caught up in this process.

    If mainstream veganism has a skeleton in its ethical cupboard it's an ignorance about how what we buy to eat is produced. Fortunately we also have an answer and it's here:

    vegan organic trust

    Plan to grow your own and then you'll be sure that your cruelty free. In the meantime buy organic.
    We are saved in the end by the things that ignore us. Andrew Harvey

  34. #34
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    Default Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    Obviously we would all buy vegan organic if that were possible, but it is certainly not where I live, and neither do we all have gardens. Speaking for myself, I can grow a few herbs in pots, but certainly can't grow sufficient fruit and vegies for my meals. We must be realistic, surely?
    Eve

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    Default Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    Move house??

    OK, if it's impossible for you to move house, or buy land, or rent land (like I do) then you've done everything you can and that's the end of it.

    In these circumstances, the pragmatic thing to do is buy organic food which is the least worst of the other two options.

    BTW, all you need is a bit of land the size of a tennis court and you can feed a family of six vegan organically all the year round. (Except for soya and wheat for flour). You'll also be able to recycyle at least 95% of your waste. It'll keep you physically fit and save you a fortune. So you you can give up at least half your job and all of the gym membership. And the Vitamin D tabs and maybe even B12 too?? Oh, and if you grow your own food you've got a good chance of being very content too, not least because you're living virtually cruelty-free.

    You can also start small. On this miserable UK November day I've got pak choi, endive, coriander and chervil growing in my window boxes and loads of other herbs and lettuces in recycled containers...
    We are saved in the end by the things that ignore us. Andrew Harvey

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    Default Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    Quote terrace max
    Move house??
    BTW, all you need is a bit of land the size of a tennis court and you can feed a family of six vegan organically all the year round. (Except for soya and wheat for flour). You'll also be able to recycyle at least 95% of your waste. It'll keep you physically fit and save you a fortune. So you you can give up at least half your job and all of the gym membership. And the Vitamin D tabs and maybe even B12 too?? Oh, and if you grow your own food you've got a good chance of being very content too, not least because you're living virtually cruelty-free.
    It also means that you are in a very good position in the event of any future oil crisis in which the price of food would sky rocket!
    Don't blame me for avian flu :(

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    Default Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    It also means that you are in a very good position in the event of any future oil crisis in which the price of food would sky rocket!
    True, true englishvegoboi: but in that scenario how do I stop (non-violently) the famished masses thieving my pak choi?? I suppose I could just grow radishes - nobody would nick them..
    We are saved in the end by the things that ignore us. Andrew Harvey

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    Default Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    Don't worry Mr Max most of the famished masses wouldn't know what pak choi is. I once said pak choi to a Yorkshireman and he gave me a slap round the face. He thought I was being rude.
    Don't blame me for avian flu :(

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    Default Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    Quote terrace max
    I hope you won't form that conclusion xwitchymagicx...modern, chemical-based agriculture is anathema to veganism. Wrecking our ecosystem through non-organic food production will cause more animal (and human animal) casualties than veganism could ever save.

    The collateral damage from 'conventional' chemical-based agriculture is horrific. Synthetic pesticides obliterate everything in their path. Organic farmers are only allowed to use selective, non-persistent chemicals (like derris and soft soap). Of course, this is still unacceptable to us, just like their use of animal by-products - but the better of two evils.

    By way of example, in the UK non-organically grown potato crops are sprayed with sulphuric acid to remove the haulm (green top growth) merely to make harvesting the tubers easier. I can't bear to think of the fate of any wildlife caught up in this process.

    If mainstream veganism has a skeleton in its ethical cupboard it's an ignorance about how what we buy to eat is produced. Fortunately we also have an answer and it's here:

    vegan organic trust

    Plan to grow your own and then you'll be sure that your cruelty free. In the meantime buy organic.
    Hmm I try and buy organic it is just hard for me as my mum pays for the fruit/veg etc! And my mum won't buy dear stuff.
    "It's not that people suddenly start breeding like rabbits; it's just that people stopped dropping like flies" - population explosion

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    mango woman
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    Default Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    Quote terrace max
    Move house??

    OK, if it's impossible for you to move house, or buy land, or rent land (like I do) then you've done everything you can and that's the end of it.

    In these circumstances, the pragmatic thing to do is buy organic food which is the least worst of the other two options.

    BTW, all you need is a bit of land the size of a tennis court and you can feed a family of six vegan organically all the year round. (Except for soya and wheat for flour). You'll also be able to recycyle at least 95% of your waste. It'll keep you physically fit and save you a fortune. So you you can give up at least half your job and all of the gym membership. And the Vitamin D tabs and maybe even B12 too?? Oh, and if you grow your own food you've got a good chance of being very content too, not least because you're living virtually cruelty-free.

    You can also start small. On this miserable UK November day I've got pak choi, endive, coriander and chervil growing in my window boxes and loads of other herbs and lettuces in recycled containers...

    I am planning on growing my own fruits/veggies this summer. My mum is letting me use some of her back yard for a garden for my own food to grow and I'm just going to go over there every morning and every evening to take care of my beloved produce. I have chives growing in a small pot in my window, but other than those and the sprouter i should be getting in a few days, i do not grow anything on my own. I am trying to grow more things.. do you have any other advice terrace max? i suppose it's as easy as getting large enough containers, some soil, and some seeds..

    I think i may look into that more. Hmm. You spoke of window boxes, what exactly is a window box and can they be constructed by hand?

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    Default Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    Quote terrace max
    Move house??

    OK, if it's impossible for you to move house, or buy land, or rent land (like I do) then you've done everything you can and that's the end of it.

    In these circumstances, the pragmatic thing to do is buy organic food which is the least worst of the other two options.

    BTW, all you need is a bit of land the size of a tennis court and you can feed a family of six vegan organically all the year round. (Except for soya and wheat for flour). You'll also be able to recycyle at least 95% of your waste. It'll keep you physically fit and save you a fortune. So you you can give up at least half your job and all of the gym membership. And the Vitamin D tabs and maybe even B12 too?? Oh, and if you grow your own food you've got a good chance of being very content too, not least because you're living virtually cruelty-free.

    You can also start small. On this miserable UK November day I've got pak choi, endive, coriander and chervil growing in my window boxes and loads of other herbs and lettuces in recycled containers...
    This sounds wonderful - for the few who can do it. I am not trying to criticize, merely point out that there is not enough land for all people to move from high density areas to the surrounding land and grow there own. Also, if your neighbor sprays chemicals on his/her lawn then you get contamination from air and ground water run-off. I know as this happened to me.

    There needs to be a solution for the hundreds of millions of people living in cities - they can't all abandon their concrete homes and resettle on a plot of land that is situated to get the best sunlight. A few acres becomes very small when some of it is on a slope with very large rocks and trees all around and a house blocking the best sunlight.

    Again I am not trying to criticize but just explain why not all of us can grow our own and be self-sufficient.
    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds. - Albert Einstein

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    Default Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    Quote theashleybeyer
    I am planning on growing my own fruits/veggies this summer. My mum is letting me use some of her back yard for a garden for my own food to grow and I'm just going to go over there every morning and every evening to take care of my beloved produce. I have chives growing in a small pot in my window, but other than those and the sprouter i should be getting in a few days, i do not grow anything on my own. I am trying to grow more things.. do you have any other advice terrace max? i suppose it's as easy as getting large enough containers, some soil, and some seeds..

    I think i may look into that more. Hmm. You spoke of window boxes, what exactly is a window box and can they be constructed by hand?
    Advice? Follow that good vegan instinct and you'll be fine. Vegetables want to grow - they like an open site and good soil, so composting is key in a vegan system.

    this is a great book. But there's loads of info for free on the net - some of it is even accurate!

    Oh, and plant fruit trees.

    Window boxes: mine are just that, wooden boxes fixed (securely) to the wall below our windows and filled with (peat free compost). Sure you can knock some together - just make them as deep as possible if you're going to grow vegetables in them. I grow tumbling tomatoes in mine during the summer and salad leaves & herbs the rest of the year.

    Any problems don't hesitate to ask - if I don't know the answer I know people who will...

    Good Luck! (you won't need it )
    We are saved in the end by the things that ignore us. Andrew Harvey

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    Default Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    Quote Dianecrna
    This sounds wonderful - for the few who can do it. I am not trying to criticize, merely point out that there is not enough land for all people to move from high density areas to the surrounding land and grow there own. Also, if your neighbor sprays chemicals on his/her lawn then you get contamination from air and ground water run-off. I know as this happened to me.

    There needs to be a solution for the hundreds of millions of people living in cities - they can't all abandon their concrete homes and resettle on a plot of land that is situated to get the best sunlight. A few acres becomes very small when some of it is on a slope with very large rocks and trees all around and a house blocking the best sunlight.

    Again I am not trying to criticize but just explain why not all of us can grow our own and be self-sufficient.
    __________________
    No worries Dianecrna - I'm sure you're right. Most people couldn't be vegan-organic and almost self-sufficient...but I think there's many, many people who think they couldn't, but could...

    I read that there's presently 0.22 hectares of good quality land per person on the planet. Theoretically everybody could best feed themselves, and future generations, from this land vegan-organically. It seems highly unlikely that the world's population could organise itself to use the land so wisely but I don't think this should stop us trying: just like I don't stop being vegan because most people seem to prefer going to hell in a hand cart than stopping eating animal products...

    For me, it's that Gandhi thing again about being the change you want to see in society.

    If trying to be vegan self-sufficientish was a miserable, spartan existence I'd feel bad for banging on about it - but it's almost funny how easy it is to grow your own stuff. I rent my land for 30 a year and eat like a (vegan) gourmet! Everything is fresh out of the ground and not one creature is deliberately hurt.

    I beg you to try it fellow vegans!!!
    We are saved in the end by the things that ignore us. Andrew Harvey

  44. #44
    told me to Mr Flibble's Avatar
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    Default Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    Quote terrace max
    I beg you to try it fellow vegans!!!
    don't worry, as soon as I move out my city centre appartment into somewhere with a garden (in the next few months hopefully) I'm with you all the way

    I don't plan to grow *everything* initially, but my parents always grew stuff fruit and veg when i was a kid and I know it doesn't take up too much of your life to grow enough to replace a large part of your food requirement otehrwise bought from a shop.
    "Mr Flibble - forum corruptor of innocents!!" - Hemlock

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    Default Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    Nice one Mr Flibble - you could move somewhere with some vacant allotments nearby - saves digging up the garden!
    We are saved in the end by the things that ignore us. Andrew Harvey

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    Default Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    Quote terrace max
    No worries Dianecrna - I'm sure you're right. Most people couldn't be vegan-organic and almost self-sufficient...but I think there's many, many people who think they couldn't, but could...
    Thanks for not taking offense. (I'm really just a frustrated farmer living in a concrete world.)
    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds. - Albert Einstein

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    Vegan chick
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    Exclamation Not just organic, vegan organic!

    VON and CVOE are both doing incredible work to educate people about how to grow food without using slaughterhouse byproducts which the organic industry relies very heavily on. Check them out - Vegan Organic Network (VON) is in the UK and CVOE (Center for Vegan Organic Education) is in the US. There web sites are: veganorganic.net and veganorganiced.org.

  48. #48
    Vegan chick
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    Default Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    If you want to know about organic food and how it's grown in the US, check out this web site: veganorganiced.org. Organic farmers rely VERY heavily on manure (which comes from dairy farms usually), blood meal, bone meal, fish meal. There are a few products on the market that are vegan fertilizers, and cover crops or green manures take the place of animal manure, but many farmers don't know how to use these things. There are only a few well-known farms growing veganically in the US, but much more in the UK. Check out vot.net for the UK site on vegan organics. They've even started a "stock-free" standard so that consumers can identify organic food that is grown without exploiting animals. Organic standards in the US are a great deal weaker than they were before the federal governments got involved. And now they are trying to loosen them even further to accommodate the farmers who simply want the high profits offered by organic farming without backing it up with spirit.

  49. #49
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    Default Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    Just a small point veganichik - green manure cannot directly replace animal manures - it's more used to retain existing fertility than to contribute it. Compost and, perhaps, human waste are the natural replacements to factory farm by-product.

    In general, as vegans I think we've got four options as far as sourcing food is concerned, in the absence of mass-produced 'stock-free' food:

    1. Grow your own (you can be sure it's vegan and organic)
    2. Buy organic (you can be sure it's not vegan but fairly sure it's environment-friendly)
    3. Buy 'normal' non-organic vegan food (you can be sure it's a complete disaster for the biosphere upon which all life depends)
    4. Starve.

    3. & 4. can't really be taken seriously. 1 requires a big conceptual shift for most 21st century 'Westerners' although notably not for their great-grandparents...So most vegans are presumably left with an unaccustomed compromise - buy organic???

    IMO civilisation, cruelty against the rest of nature and chronic diseases of the mind and body are largely based on humans being divorced from production of their own food. It would be fantastic if veganism could provide the bridge back to balance with nature...
    We are saved in the end by the things that ignore us. Andrew Harvey

  50. #50
    Vegan chick
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    Default Re: Scary possibility for Organic Farming..

    Dear Terrace Max,

    I appreciate your thoughtful response to my comments about veganics. I agree with you that green manures and cover crops do not replace animal manure any more than meat analogues replace animal flesh. They certainly function in different ways, contribute some of the same things, some must be found elsewhere. Veganics relies on keeping the soil healthy and active through methods including crop rotations, composting, and growing green manures. Leguminous green manures have been found to add significant amounts of nitrogen when turned into the soil. Compost teas, if properly made and applied, have changed sickly crops into profitable ones (www.soilfoodweb.com). Taking into consideration the complexity of agricultural methods throughout history and our current knowledge of the ecosystem, if done correctly, veganic methods can result in plants with a higher density of nutrients, fewer contaminants, less energy from the earth (perhaps more energy from humans) use less than 10% of the water to grow the same amount of protein (because no water is being fed to the animals who provide the manure. I recommend several sources of information and research to back up my claims, and some just provide interesting and inspiring writing:
    http://www.veganorganiced.org
    http://www.flyingbeet.com
    http://www.viva.org.uk/campaigns/oth...anfarming.html
    http://www.friendsofanimals.org/acti...;veganics.html
    http://www.pfaf.org/leaflets/vegorg.php
    http://www.gentleworld.org/VEGAN/veganic-gardening.htm
    http://www.glaserorganicfarms.com
    http://www.vegansociety.com
    http://www.veganviews.org.uk


    Having our "options" ennumerated concerns me as it seems to limit our creativity and determination. When I was first exposed to vegetarianism in the late 1960s, the food "options" vegetarians had to use to maintain their health would be considered ridiculous today. How did we get from there to here? Things changed? How? We changed them. And we need to work to change them further. We need to speak up and talk to the people who provide the food we purchase. Let them know that there is such a thing as veganic farming. There are two well-known veganic farms in the U.S. That isn't many, but everything starts somewhere. If we purchase our produce from farmers' markets we can talk to the farmers and ask them how they grow their food. We can send them information about the advantages of veganic growing. And when we grow ourselves on our allotment, community garden plot or in our yard, we can talk to our neighbors and friends and other vegetarians about how we do it and how easy it is.

    The annual NAVS (North American Vegetarian Society www.navs.online.org) meeting in Pennsylvania hosts at least one speaker on veganics. There is an organization here in the States that works to promote veganics, and the UK has VON (Vegan Organic Network). Animal rights organizations are always welcoming of learning more ways to reduce animal suffering, and veganics is one very important way. If we join with these and other organizations that I am not thinking of at the moment, I'm confident that we can make a difference.

    My hope is that we won't give in to our cynicism and stop trying. The animals need us, we need each other. I'm enjoying our lively discussions! By the way, my partner and I have been growing veganically for 15 years now and enjoy it very much. Lots of veggies, and now fruit as well.

    Veganichik

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