Feeling overwhelmed with critisism

[princessemma]

My almost vegan daughter is three and I took her to the GP who was 'concerned' about her vegan diet. My mum thinks it's unfair and unhealthy and is waiting for Lara to pass out through lack of cow juice. I feel quite threatened and although I've recieved support from friends I can't help but be concerned. My little girl eats a healthy balanced diet but over three-quarters of the population would consider it to be totally unhealthy since there is no milk and dairy. I don't want to give in but I am feeling so vunerable right now.
She had her party last Saturday and I made all vegan food. My mum said 'this is okay now if you gave her this but she had cows milk and eggs as well I'd be okay with that' I didn't know wether to laugh or scream. She has completely missed the point. Later she called me up to tell me my sister's, friend's, doctor read a study done in America on 40 vegan children and more of them had broken bones than the ones who had meat and/or dairy. Why is my sister's friend, whom I've only seen a few times in my life asking questions about my daughter whom she knows nothing about? I'm sorry I know I am ranting I just feel so pressured.

[Jacqui]

Hi
My heart went out to you reading your post about your daughter. I was not vegan when my son was growing up so I dont have any fabulous advice for you there, sorry. I can only imagine the pressure you must feel to conform.
I think you are doing a brave and wonderful thing for your daughter and are giving her the best possible start in life with such a healthy diet. I wish I had done the same for my son.
Your daughter is not a calf and at three would be weaned even if she was, so I dont see any reason to doubt yourself over the dairy thing.
Good luck, trust yourself, be strong . Jacqui

[moochbabe]

that's excellent advice jacqui. also, the thing is, a fortified milk of some sort will have all the same nutrients as cows milk sans cholesterol. there's no need to give your daughter milk. also, that study u mentioned is bull poo, so don't worry about that either. as long as she is getting other calcium rich food, vitamin D and magnesium, then there is no need to worry about her bones being brittle...and as long as she's a healthy weight too, and i'm sure that u wouldn't let her not be since you are obviously a very loving and careful mother

[Lindsay]

Later she called me up to tell me my sister's, friend's, doctor read a study done in America on 40 vegan children and more of them had broken bones than the ones who had meat and/or dairy.

They probably have less broken bones because they're stuck inside all day being sick all the time from all the stuff in the animal products they eat, while the vegan children are outside playing, having a good time and occasionally have an accident.

[Pilaf]

You always have the option of telling your so called "friends" where to stick their opinions. I find that to be an effective way to curb criticism.

[moochbabe]

lol, i thought of the same thing pilaf, but it sounds like she has great respect for her mother and wouldn't want to say that... although u could explain the fortified milk alternative thing to her and find a polite way to tell her to stick it...in her ear

[Geoff]

You always have the option of telling your so called "friends" where to stick their opinions. I find that to be an effective way to curb criticism.

I disagree. Telling someone to stick their opinions is no way to get them onside.
What you need is scientific, peer reviewed, studies such as cited by Dr John McDougall, www.notmilk.com etc.
There are books on bringing up vegan children. There's one by Dr Michael Klaper, I think.
I've been watching the Total Health Solution DVD from John McDougall and I want all my friends and family to see it; for their health, the animals health and the planet's health. It has all the ammo you need and is well worth the US$40 it costs.

[Korn]

Parents are often worried when their kids do things in a different way than they did, and not only re. diet or raising kids. There's a lot of literature (and many internet sites/links on this sites) which compares the healthyness of a plant based diet vs. a standard diet.

These studies are mainly done by non-vegans, and I've seen a lot of them. If there's one thing I would not do if I were a meat eater, it would be to use all these studies as a reference. New research which confirms which confirms how useless the diet that kids traditionally are rasied on pops up all the time.

Of course vegan parents have to make sure the kids get the nutrients they need, and that they don't live on junk food, but this is of course the case with non-vegan doets as well.

When it comes to B12, I think it's smart to give vegan children a little of it; they don't like to take blood tests and can find them quite traumatic.

Parents of vegan parents might fear that we will give our kids the same food as they were raised on, minus the meat and the other dairy products, which of course wouldn't be very healthy (or very tasty). Kids need to get their nutrients from something else than overcooked potatoes, canned green peas and white pasta. So in a way, they have a reason to be worried - they don't know what vegan food is, and need to read or hear or taste something which will convince them.

Have you asked them where they think the animals they eat get their nutrients from?

Can a plant based diet be healthy?

[aubergine]

Since reading 'The Food Revolution' I have no worries at all about what I eat, and will raise my children (some day) as vegan with confidence.

[kriz]

I saw the pic of your little daughter in your profile, Princessdema, and she looks like an adorable and healthy 3 year old. I know it's hard to be critized by people who are close to you when you're trying your very best to raise a healthy child. I think vegans in most cases are MORE knowledgable about nutrition in general and much more aware of what they're feeding their children. So, it makes me so sad when others, who are ignorant about veganism and it's health benefits, put us down claiming they have superior knowledge. I belive interracial and homosexual couples with children go through the same thing, but then it's called discrimination.

You're doing the right thing by teaching your child compassion and live as a vegan regardless what anyone else says. Maybe this link can help you some www.veganfamily.co.uk/

[princessemma]

I have showed my mum the fortified soya milk we have (so good) it has so many more nutrients than dairy milk. I think the whole egg issue is because she keeps chickens as pets and can't understand why we won't eat the eggs as the chickens are not being harmed. I explained that the breeder she got them from as chicks would not have kept the males and the majority of chickens he bred would end up on someones plate. My dad was so horrified when I told him what happens to male chicks. He seems okay with eating the adult ones though! Besides it would confuse Lara if she were allowed eggs at Grandma's and not anywhere else. I personally couldn't stomach eating one now. On a good note though my mum had builder's recently and in a conversation with my mum he revealed that seeing her pet chickens had put him off his dinner and he didn't think he could ever stomach eating chicken again. A vegetarian in the making perhaps.
I took her to a party today at her playgroup. The lady who runs it actually got vegan style smarties so Lara wouldn't feel different. She asked me before hand what Lara has and bought some vegan spread, some peanut butter and asked me to get some lollies and sweets and she'd pay me back from the kitty! I really couldn't have asked for more. She has been so supportive. So with friends like her and you guys perhaps I can cope with my family after all.

[twinkle]

... I took her to a party today at her playgroup. The lady who runs it actually got vegan style smarties so Lara wouldn't feel different. She asked me before hand what Lara has and bought some vegan spread, some peanut butter and asked me to get some lollies and sweets and she'd pay me back from the kitty! I really couldn't have asked for more. She has been so supportive. So with friends like her and you guys perhaps I can cope with my family after all.

That's excellent

[harpy]

I think I would be tempted to give your mum a nice thick book to read about feeding vegan children - preferably one with lots of refs to peer-reviewed studies. That might keep her quiet for a bit, and eventually set her mind at rest.

Perhaps others can recommend a child-specific book. The Vegan Society's "Plant-based Nutrition and Health" has sections on children, and has a reassuringly scientific approach (well, it convinced me ) .

[moochbabe]

it sounds like your mom might be coming around!! and i'm glad to hear you have such a supportive friend!!

[John]

Your daughter is fortunate to have such a strong mom.

As a side note, when I was a child I was so skinny that many people felt the need to comment on it. I was fed plenty of meat, but I'm sure that if I had been vegan and that skinny, people would accused my mother of starving me.

[Lagamorph]

I wish I would have had Vegan parents. She is very lucky to have you.
She is adorable by the way.
Hang in there, things are changing. (slowly, but changing)

[princessemma]

My mom called me to tell me she's noticed Lara is lacking in energy and she contacted a Health Visitor who apparently contacted our Health Visitor. I tried to tell her that Lara was recovering from a cold but she wouldn't listen. She decided she must be aneamic. I told her that we eat a diet rich in iron and vitamin C to improve the absorbtion but she wouldn't listen to that either. Now I've made an appointment to see a dietician but not all dietician's have studied vegan diets and if I get one that hasn't I am going to be back at square one. My GP still thinks you have to have two protiens at every meal to form 'complete' protiens, which of course is now known to be untrue. This is getting me down so much. I am already feeling depressed and miserable so this is just the icing on the cake!

[harpy]

What a pain! I can see why it's getting you down

Could you contact the British Dietetic Association to see if they can recommend a member who knows about veganism? They don't seem to be anti-vegetarianism generally - have you seen this? http://www.bda.uk.com/Downloads/vegetarianfoodfacts.pdf

It would be easy enough to get your daughter checked for anaemia, I suppose, but there doesn't seem to be any real reason to think she's got it, from what you say.

[Kevster]

I had a friend who was a practising dietician in the Midlands, not sure what she's up to now or where she's practising, i sent her shedloads of vegan info, haven't spoken to her since!

I think the latest ones should be pretty clued up. Go in there and ask them why they aren't vegan.

Try not to let it get you down, easier said, but really, it might be a learning experience for your dietician, or if it's not go to the BDA.

However, saying all that, they'll probably wonder what a healthy young girl is doing there.

[tadpole1707]

am mostly a lurker on here but just wanted to reply and say i really feel for you. you are obviously a good caring mummy and well done to you for raising your daughter as a vegan! tad, my son (2 and a half) is only veggie, though i am working to get him to a fully vegan diet (its just the chocolate that he has really) and my youngest, polly who is 8 months is being raised as a vegan. anyway, just wanted to let you know i think you are doing great and i only hope i manage to raise my polly as a vegan too!
lucy x

[Span]

Hi princessemma, I hope its not getting you down too much, but I know how you feel.

We have 2 boys aged 5 and 4, and despite my mother being a vegetarian, she still thinks our vegan lifestyle is 'too extreme'.

My brother is a personal trainer and has just finished a nutritional course, but also thinks it can be dangerous. Talk about an up hill struggle!

They both come out with some weird argument that we have evolved into scavengers and can no longer survive on a plant only diet

I assume they must 'scavenge' at Tescos weekly, and only scavenge selectively, avoiding the meat !?!?

Many times I try to talk to my mum on the phone about this subject, but she cuts me off mid sentence and insists something had come up immediately and she has to go, leaving me very frustrated.

Until the day we die, we only ever want acceptance from our parents (remember that with your own children) and when we don't get it, its very hard, but it won't stop us trying, no matter how futile it is, it's just a built in necessity as part of human nature.

What helps me is knowing that deep down I am not cynical, just right
That and a very supportive husband who keeps me grounded with positive support whenever I get in a tizzy about my mom

The irritating thing is that despite me knowing this, it wont stop me trying to convince her next time we speak, only for it to end, as always, in a pit of frustration.

Stick to your guns princessemma, you are right, you are a good parent, and you are a good daughter

[herbwormwood]

My mom called me to tell me she's noticed Lara is lacking in energy and she contacted a Health Visitor who apparently contacted our Health Visitor. I tried to tell her that Lara was recovering from a cold but she wouldn't listen. She decided she must be aneamic. I told her that we eat a diet rich in iron and vitamin C to improve the absorbtion but she wouldn't listen to that either. Now I've made an appointment to see a dietician but not all dietician's have studied vegan diets and if I get one that hasn't I am going to be back at square one. My GP still thinks you have to have two protiens at every meal to form 'complete' protiens, which of course is now known to be untrue. This is getting me down so much. I am already feeling depressed and miserable so this is just the icing on the cake!

This is appalling interfence from your Mum. Obviously she is doing it because she cares, but to call someone behind your back is going too far.
You need to have a good talk with her and make sure this does not happen again. You also need to arm yourself with facts and if posible get at least 1 professional on your side. There are a number of sources to use, the Vegan Society has a book and leaflets, there will be a lot you can get. Don't let it get you down, you have to be strong. How would you feel if your doctor or a health visitor wanted to do a blood test on your daughter to check she was nutritionally ok? This would set everyone's mind at rest but I can see how you might not want this as it would be intrusive. But they may ask you.
I had a blood test last year as I have a heath condition, and I saw when I took the form over to the nurse, that the doctor had asked for a B12 test. I was a bit cross, as I have B12 supplements and it was unnecessary, but I let it go because I knew it would keep them happy.
Could you find any other vegan parents where you live? They may be able to help. There is always power in numbers!

[princessemma]

Thanks everyone for your support. Lara started Nursery school this week. She loves it. Her Nursery teacher said she had no problem giving Lara soya milk. Her now grown-up son is allergic to loads of thinks including milk and eggs so she's at least used to checking labels.

I've been sent Lara's appointment with the dietician and I've got to keep a food diary. I'm sure Lara would not want a blood test but if the dietician wanted her to have one that would be okay. I've got nothing to hide and if she is anaemic I want to know sooner rather than later.

I give her a healthy balanced diet but she's three and sometimes she really doesn't want to eat. She's got a star chart and she gets a star everytime she makes a big effort with her dinner. I don't make her clear her plate though. She'll always eat a jacket potato with beans and toffuti cream cheese, and it's not unusual for her to eat two weetabix for breakfast as well as toast and marmite. She's like her dad he's a human dustbin, six foot two and rake thin. It's not fair I put on weight just watching them eat.

I try and give her healthier snacks like flapjacks and fruitcake instead of sweets and crisps but I'm not perfect, we have chips on saturdays and sometimes I just give her a lollipop or a packet of vegan sweets. She likes whizzers from Holland and Barrett and the Jelly Teddies (but then so does mummy)

It's interesting what you said Span about allways seeking your parents approval. It's true, I have been trying for as long as I can remember to make my mum proud of me and I just can't. I was in the newspaper a couple of weeks back and I got my weight watcher's gold star (for those of you who don't know that's what you get for staying at goal weight for a year) she didn't even answer me when I told her. I still keep trying. My nineteen year old brother sits on his rear end all day, when he's not in bed
and to hear her talk about him you would think the sun shines out of his backside, but she has not interest in any of her four daughters.

[Hemlock]

If my mother interfered like that she would no longer be welcome in my home

[Michael Benis]

I think your managing a really difficult situation very well. Congratulations.

Just as a matter of interst have you read the latest Vegan Society on bringing up vegan children? I haven't read it myself, but it's got good reviews.

It sounds like your mother is going to need a lot of patience and some firmness on your part. Good reading material may help both of you!

Cheers

Mike

[Morna]

"She'd" be Ok with that? Who is raising your daughter? You or her? I'm glad I don't have kids for that reason; everyone's Ok with *me* being weak and malnourished (actually I'm in better shape than most people I know, except those who are really athletes) because it's my life.

[greeniebean]

Although I am not a parent yet, I hope to be some day. I am already thinking about the criticism and scare tacticts I will have to deal with. I'm inspired by all of you who are paving the way and dealing with all the criticiam.

Someone asked me in the lunch room at work the other day if I intend to have vegan kids. I said I'd like to. Another co-worker said, "I'm going to have to give you the lecture! I've seen kids suffer horribly on a vegan diet....they could barely walk." I said, "Well, you've mentioned that to me before. BUt, I know of a lot of people whose posts I read online who have healthy vegan kids." His response: "They're lying." AAAARGH!

I actually think the kids he saw "suffer horribly" were macrobiotic anyway. I have heard that macrobiotic is really rough on kids....but I haven't researched it.

[tabitha]

What about the kids suffering horribly on a diet of big Macs, pizzas and sausage and chips. Definitely bring your kids up vegan, as long as you research it properly they will be healthier. It is the biggest regret of my life that I didnt do it.

[puffin]

Tabitha, how long have you been vegan? If you were not a vegan when you had your kids i cant see why you feel regret

[greeniebean]

What about the kids suffering horribly on a diet of big Macs, pizzas and sausage and chips. Definitely bring your kids up vegan, as long as you research it properly they will be healthier. It is the biggest regret of my life that I didnt do it.

Exactly! You should have seen what the people questioning me were eating! I know for a fact one of them sends their child off to school with sandwiches made prepacked deli meats like bologna! THat is crap.

[Thur]

Even before I decided to raise my child Vegan I fired babysitters for feeding my child fast food. If people really care about their children they will educate themselves on the best way to raise their children. Not just go by what everyone else is doing. I hope I do not offend anyone in saying so but every child is different but they are all same in the fact that Fast food is never good and anyone feeding their children that crap should be ashamed.

[tabitha]

I have only been vegan for 2 years. I meant that if I had done it years ago I could have bought them up as vegan. I was aware of animal rights in those days, but my head was elsewere I suppose.

[Thur]

I have been a vegan for a shorter time than you Tabitha and I am ashamed of the way I acted beforehand. At least we did change and our children will thank us years later for giving them a healthier lifestyle and a better understanding of Humanity. You should be proud of yourself for doing what you did when you did it. Some people will still not change even after they learn the truth just because they want to do what they have always done. Its like Politics, if you change your mind your a sissy, you know?

[RedWellies]

I meant that if I had done it years ago I could have bought them up as vegan..

At least you're setting them a good example now, Tabitha. Don't beat yourself up over it.

[Haniska]

It's interesting what you said Span about allways seeking your parents approval. It's true, I have been trying for as long as I can remember to make my mum proud of me and I just can't. I was in the newspaper a couple of weeks back and I got my weight watcher's gold star (for those of you who don't know that's what you get for staying at goal weight for a year) she didn't even answer me when I told her. I still keep trying. My nineteen year old brother sits on his rear end all day, when he's not in bed
and to hear her talk about him you would think the sun shines out of his backside, but she has not interest in any of her four daughters.

Hey princessemma,

Your mama sounds like my grandmother on two points:
1. When I say that me and everyone at work has the flu she says "Do you think that you are run down because of your diet?" as well as many other gems that come up when my muscles are sore from lifting weights, when I am tired from working overtime etc. *hugs*
2. My grandmother thinks that my brother is liquid gold and that my mother is S (parents are divorced). She has always been on about him constantly about how great he is and how when we were teenagers he would make his own meals (like I didn't). I spoke to my mother about this and she says that is the culture of my father's side of the family. That men are tops and women are nothing. She told me that [in that area] she frequently saw the mother sitting in the back seat of the car and the first born son next to the father in the front seat.
I don't think there is really anything that you can do about her views except expose her to different ways of thinking. Not that it will sink in. Take care.

[eve]

I don't think you will meet with success in trying to get mum's approval. I tried my whole life, until she died at a ripe old age. Oh well, at least I approve of myself, as we all can.