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Thread: Addiction to meat?

  1. #1
    munchymkr's Avatar
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    Default Addiction to meat?

    I've been eating a vegan diet for weeks now and really loving it. Thanks for all the support by the way.

    So, today I'm in Whole foods market to buy some flax seeds and as I'm walking up the first isle there is one of those little sample thingys set up with toothpicks and a big pile of greasy sausage chunks. It was like almost involuntary I saw my hand reaching out....

    I did come to my senses before I touched the greasy chucks and made a hasty retreat to the bulk nuts and seeds for my flax fix.

    It occurred to me that what I experienced was much the same as when I quit drinking. In fact it was exactly the same. The sights, sounds and smells triggered an urge to eat something I know is not good for me. I had to get away from the trigger and talk myself out of caving in to the urge.

    I am glad I did not fall off the wagon, so to speak. I was wondering if anyone else has felt like they were breaking an addiction when first stopping eating meat.

    I have really struggled with quitting drinking. It's gotten easier over time. Thankfully quitting animal products has not seemed anywhere near as hard. The tools I learned from SMART recovery have really come in handy today.

  2. #2
    Seaside
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    Default Re: Addiction to meat?

    I was never very thrilled with meat as a child, and I was a child when I gave it up, so I don't think I had eaten it long enough to become addicted.

    Giving up cheese was like withdrawing from an addiction for me. When I was little, my nickname was "The Mouse".

    That was 20 years ago, though. So keep up the good work! Someday you won't even see these things as fit for human consumption.

  3. #3
    nmvegan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Addiction to meat?

    Hey! Congrats on your sobriety!! That's really great so keep up the good work!
    I think for me at least eating meat was just a habit thing...so if I were reaching for the sausage it would have been just because I wasn't thinking...
    But I do think that it can be addictive in that there is so much crap in meat products that we could be addicted to (antibiotics, hormones, etc.) and we all know that we all kind of go through our own detox when we changed our eating habits.
    So....good job on heading for the bulk nuts and seeds section....
    It works when you work it...
    "Violent means will give violent freedom."
    ~Mohandas K. Gandhi

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    puffin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Addiction to meat?

    I was the same as seaside. I never liked meat and gave it up as a child so i cant say i ever had that problem.
    Have you tried any soya meat? It might help you if you are craving the meaty texture.

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    Default Re: Addiction to meat?

    Munchy, I think what you're describing is habit and cravings more than addiction. There is a substance in cheese that acts similar to narcotics but I don't know about anything in meat. Breaking old habits is difficult but you'll be able to do it.
    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds. - Albert Einstein

  6. #6
    munchymkr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Addiction to meat?

    What I am actually referring to is the mental/emotional/physical process of choosing vs not choosing. Triggers, urges, cravings, self talk, rationalization etc. In quitting drinking it was very important for me to conciously choose the kinds of situations I'd allow myself to be in. For example, I don't go to bars. I don't hang out with people who are drunk. I don't go to parties where drinking is the main event etc. It is just too hard to manage a relentless onslaught of triggers and social cues to drink. (at least in the beginning) Besides if I was drunk I'd probably eat whatever was in front of me....that's how I got fat.

    With my new diet I am finding it is much easier. Meat eating seems much like an addiction. I find it is important to take steps to control the kind of environment I find myself in. I have stayed out of restaurants that are not vegatarian. I make sure I am not hungry if I know I'll be around non vegan food etc. I have to be very carefull around family and friends who eat meat. They put a lot of pressure on me to conform to their beliefs. So I need a stratagy to deal with that.

    When I watched the movie "Super size me" I think that Spurlock did talk about addiction to fast food. I don't remember exactly. I'll have to watch again maybe...

    So the point of this post is about support really. So often on these Vegan boards I am made aware of the anger towards and condemnation of people who eat meat. As a new vegan I want to be an inspiration to others and help them to make good choices. I want to find support for my new lifestyle, not a guilt trip.

    I do think that there are many similarities between the choices to drink and the choice to eat meat. Peer pressure, desire to stuff down intense emotional responses, habit, craving, desire to avoid conflict, desire to fit in with the group etc. It was crucial in my quitting drinking to find stratagies and have a plan to deal with situations where I was in danger of caving into an urge. I find I am using the same tools to manage myself in regards to a vegan diet.

    For what it's worth http://www.smartrecovery.org/intro/index.htm here is an intro to SMART recovery. This page just explains the point of view and the tools used. Turns out there is a portion of the site for people with food addictions, but that is mostly geared towards eating disorders.

    Frankly, eating meat is an eating disorder in my mind.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Addiction to meat?

    Quote nmvegan
    But I do think that it can be addictive in that there is so much crap in meat products that we could be addicted to (antibiotics, hormones, etc.) and we all know that we all kind of go through our own detox when we changed our eating habits.
    I agree..."meat" animals are pumped so full of hormones, chemicals, etc that I could see how it's possible for some addictions to occur (maybe more than we realize).
    When you are guided by compassion and loving-kindness, you are able to look deeply into the heart of reality and see the truth.--Thich Nhat Hanh

  8. #8

    Default Re: Addiction to meat?

    Quote munchymkr
    I have to be very carefull around family and friends who eat meat. They put a lot of pressure on me to conform to their beliefs. So I need a stratagy to deal with that.

    So the point of this post is about support really. So often on these Vegan boards I am made aware of the anger towards and condemnation of people who eat meat. As a new vegan I want to be an inspiration to others and help them to make good choices. I want to find support for my new lifestyle, not a guilt trip.

    Frankly, eating meat is an eating disorder in my mind.
    I know what you mean about needing to know how to deal with friends and family who try to get you to conform to their eating habits. Luckily, I have some omni friends (2 I can think of inparticular) who are supportive and admit to the superiority of the vegan diet, yet they continue to be omnis. My family seems to find my veganism a bit hard to fathom, but so far haven't really tried to pressure me too much. Still, I sometimes find it difficult when they say, "it's just a little butter" or the like. I try to be firm and loving (which doesn't always happen), but it's not always easy.

    I agree with you, it's nice to have support, not a "guilt trip." I know I'm not a "perfect" vegan in some ways and I feel guilty at times when I don't match up with those who are, but it's nice to realize that we're all doing our best and better than most "omnis." I think it's great that you are "recovering" in more ways than one. And meat-eating being an eating disorder...that's a neat thought
    When you are guided by compassion and loving-kindness, you are able to look deeply into the heart of reality and see the truth.--Thich Nhat Hanh

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    Gemini Northchild's Avatar
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    Default Re: Addiction to meat?

    You're not alone.

    I've been a vegan for three months and found myself pulling into a McDonald's today. I left without buying anything, came home and ate some snow peas and tofu. Snow peas and tofu wasn't the food that I wanted to eat, but it was the food that I ate today. Today nothing had to die for my habit.
    "There were no public health laws in Ankh-Morpork. It would be like installing smoke detectors in hell." (Pratchett)

  10. #10
    I eve's Avatar
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    Default Re: Addiction to meat?

    I have omni friends, and yesterday we had a break-up party for the end of the year, where we all had to bring food to share. They know I'm vegan, and I made a some dips, and a couple of the women asked me for the recipes as they enjoyed them on the water crackers I brought. I kept my eyes averted from their plates as I knew they were bringing ham, chicken, lasagne, etc, and cheese cakes for dessert. But there was fruit too. I must say that they 'understand', yet really don't understand. However, I'm not going to hit anyone over the head on the subject, and we remain friends.

    Perhaps if there were a vegan or two in town, I'd find other company, but I've no desire to sit at home alone just because they are all omnis.

    PS: congratulations on your resolve.
    Eve

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    Default Re: Addiction to meat?

    I know exactly what you mean.. I'm an emotional eater and before I stopped eating meat and dairy I would binge on cookies, cake, ice cream, fried chicken, basically anything I could get my hands on. And there are times when I have that urge to eat those things if I'm going through a bad spell but I don't.

    Crazy thing, before I became vegan I thought I would have an easier time keeping my weight down since I was no longer eating meat or dairy. Then I find tofutti, Newman O's, etc and here I am binging on unhealthy vegan foods...go figure. I still feel a little better though. I know that my issue is definitely internal and I have to try to conquer these bad spells but it's so hard..

    My point is I understand, I went through the same things. I'm still a "newbie" (6 months) and I still have keep myself aware of what my hands are reaching for..

    Meikmeik
    Life Is GOOD! :p

  12. #12

    Default Re: Addiction to meat?

    I've had the same issues with sugar. Sugar has always been a trigger for me, and going vegan has almost made that worse because I can justify it (oh, the cake is VEGAN!).

  13. #13
    veganesh
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    Default Re: Addiction to meat?

    Trioxypurine in meat is the main cause of arthritis.
    It is preurine (uric acid) which the animal would have excreted had she or he
    not been murdered. It is more addictive than caffein which is dioxypurine
    has 2 oxypurine's to meat's 3.

    It crystallizes in needle formation around the joints causing pain.

    It can gradually be eliminated through elimination of toxins in the diet..
    and through prayer.

    Many more physicians and vets are calling for vegan diet for
    dogs... yes and cats.

    Foundations and pharmaceuticals marketing arthritis relief medications
    do not publicize this.



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    Default Re: Addiction to meat?

    This is very interesting. Can you tell me where you found this information, Veganesh? I would like to read more about it. Thanks.
    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds. - Albert Einstein

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    Default Re: Addiction to meat?

    according to quite a few nutritionist - meat and especailly dairy can be very addictive.

    with milk n cheese the body creates a chemical reaction rather like morphine (if I have that right) which is extremely addictive and can be very hard to kick.

    Meat can have the same problem - especially if it is fatty - like bacon - as the cooked fat is also very addictive.

    when I heard this explained I was very shocked - but it all makes sense as the dr told me.

    Gibby

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    Default Re: Addiction to meat?

    The chemical in dairy is casomorphin, which is broken into "strips" during digestion, peaking in blood concentration about 40 minutes after digestion. Since cheese is approximately 10x more concentrated than milk it has a higher concentration and is more "addictive." (From Dr. Kerrie of VegNews magazine, Nov/Dec 2005)

    But I haven't heard the same about meat. Maybe there is a chemical in meat that acts similarly, just hasn't yet been discovered. Casomorphin was discovered in 1981. I wonder if it isn't the seasonings, especially sodium, that people crave rather than meat?
    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds. - Albert Einstein

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    Default Re: Addiction to meat?

    I think your spot on with the cheese -

    with the meat - my health guru - Dr Joe Esposito (who turned me veggie and many others) explains the meat addiction thing in a radio show that can be downloaded to your pc

    he explains it - in the FOOD & ROMANCE CONNECTION download

    this is one of the best for giving to ppl to help tham make a decision about meat etc - as it explains how the meat causes nasty things the live in your gut - and has turned a few friends veggie overnight -

    its here http://www.alternativesouls.com/hh/drjrs.html
    then look for FOOD & ROMANCE CONNECTION

    enjoy


    Gibby

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    Default Re: Addiction to meat?

    following on to the last post - Dr Joe also talks about the 4 foods that are addicitve - in his download - live to 100

    very intersting as he talks about the statisics of the ppl who get to be 100
    shocking! some of it

    back to the addictions - in food there are 4
    dairy - sugar - meat and chocolate

    he talks about these in some detail and why they are addictive and what they do

    Gibby

  19. #19
    veganesh
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    Default Re: Addiction to meat?

    Prominent among body waste products are urea and uric acid. Beefsteak contains about 14 grains of uric acid per pound. When steak is boiled, waste appears as a soluble extract in the form of beef tea, which closely resembles urine when analyzed. The uric acid accounts for the quick pickup a steak seems to give, much as a cup of coffee gives. Uric acid, or trioxypurin, closely resembles caffeine, or dioxypurin, both in chemical name and effect on the body. The solid meat takes several hours to digest, by which time the stimulant has worn off. A lowering of energy results.


    the above quote is from the following article


    WHY I DON'T EAT MEAT

    By Owen S. Parrett, M.D.

    Author of Diseases oF Food Animals

    Is a person who does not eat meat peculiar or wise?

    My mother told me that when I was a baby I refused to eat any kind of meat. She thought - as many mothers do - that I needed meat to make me grow, so she persisted in giving it to me until I acquired a liking for it. For the past fifty years I have chosen diet that does not include flesh, fish or fowl.

    In my practice of medicine I have always told my patients the reason for what I asked them to do. I myself do not like to do anything without knowing why I am doing it, and most other people feel the same way. I am going to tell you why I am a vegetarian and why I believe you should be one to.

    I love life and want to live as long as I can. These stirring and eventful days, and I want to know what is going to happen next. I have passed the Biblical three score years and ten, and am thankful to God that I still find the days too short for all I want to do. I still carry a full practice and like to dip into several outside activities, even if for only a few minutes a day.

    Most of my patients at my age are retired, but I have no desire to retire so soon. I would rather spend the day helping the sick, many of whom have been forced to retire early because they lacked the knowledge I possess. I don't want to hold back this knowledge from anyone.

    After studying scientifically and observing sickness and its causes through many years, I have the conviction that If I had eaten largely of flesh foods during my life, I would now be too decrepit to carry on the practice of medicine. A doctor must be able to think clearly and have endurance and nervous energy to spare.

    Aging and fatigue are hastened by flesh foods. Ages is the wearing out of the body. The process varies in different people. Within the past week I paid a professional call on two men, one in his late forties and the other in his early fifties. Both were on country welfare, and they certainly look unable to work. Although young in years, they were both old. Tobacco and liquor had played a part, but the part meat played cannot be overlooked.

    The cells of the body are little units. Each must take on nourishment, give off waste, and breathe oxygen. When something interferes with this process, the cells and the organs they make up deteriorate.

    The late Dr. Alexis Carrel, winner of the Nobel Prize in 1912, recognized that the cell's efficiency in providing nutrition and eliminating waste was what determined the aging of tissue. He extended the life of a bit of chicken heart by bathing it in a nutritive fluid that also removed the waste. So successful was he that the bit of chicken heart was kept alive from 1913 to 1947. After 34 years it was thrown into a sink, where it died. Dr. Carrel proved that length of life depends largely on eliminating waste and adding nutrition to the cells.

    If we could regularly remove all waste from our body cells apply adequate nutrition, we might easily reach great length of life. If the body fluid that bathes our cells is overloaded with waste, life is shortened.

    The Bible indicates that for ten generations before the flood people lived an average of 912 years. After the Flood they began eating flesh. The life of the next ten generations was shortened to an average of 317 years.

    A great many people think that if you are going to work hard and need a lot of endurance, you must eat a large beefsteak. The facts are the opposite.

    Some years ago a well known Yale professor, Dr Irving Fisher, showed that when vegetarian rookie athletes were pitted against the best athletes of Yale, the untrained men had more than twice the endurance of meat-eating athletes.

    Johnny Weissmuller, the Tarzan of the movies and world swimming champion, was invited to the dedication of a new swimming pool in the Battle Creek Sanitarium. Weissmuller had made 56 world records, but for five years had made no new ones. After several weeks on a well selected vegetarian diet, he was able to hang up six more world records in the swimming pool.

    The vegetarian swimmer Murray Rose of Australia, world champion and a winner in the Olympic games, and his diet practice have become widely known. He has been a vegetarian since two years old. Not only does he swim fast but his ability to spurt ahead at the finish demonstrates that superior endurance accompanies fleshless diet.

    Why should this be true? Meat contains waste products that the animal would have eliminated. A person who eats flesh loads himself with wastes of the meat. When these wastes reach the body cells, they bring on fatigue and aging.

    Prominent among body waste products are urea and uric acid. Beefsteak contains about 14 grains of uric acid per pound. When steak is boiled, waste appears as a soluble extract in the form of beef tea, which closely resembles urine when analyzed. The uric acid accounts for the quick pickup a steak seems to give, much as a cup of coffee gives. Uric acid, or trioxypurin, closely resembles caffeine, or dioxypurin, both in chemical name and effect on the body. The solid meat takes several hours to digest, by which time the stimulant has worn off. A lowering of energy results.

    The late Dr. L. H. Newburg, of the University of Michigan, called attention to the fact that when meat formed 25 percent of a rat's diet the rat became bigger and more active than rats on a normal diet. But after a few months the kidney's of the meat eating rat became badly damaged. Dairymen tell me that a high -protein diet for cows will bring up production of milk but will "burn them out" with eventually lowered production.

    Another danger facing the meat eater is the disease in animals common to man. My secretary told me that the dairy where her husband is foreman had four cases of leukemia in one year among its 124 cows. One cow diagnosed as having leukemia died four hours after the veterinarian made the diagnosis. He suggested the cow be sent to the market, but she died before the truck that made regular trips through the dairies picking up nonproducing cows came along.

    Many cows no longer able to produce milk are sent to the market, and the price paid for them indicates that they are not discarded or used for fertilizer. The wife of a foreman of a large ranch told me that they had a heifer with pneumonia. Fearing they might lose her, they quickly took her to the slaughterhouse and sold her for meat.

    Gordon H Theilen, D.V.M., of the University of California School of Veterinary Medicine Agricultural Experiment Station, said, "We have found that this disease [leukemia in cattle] is seen more frequently on certain farms, and therefore it appears to be infectious or enzootic on these farms. The disease has doubled in incidence, as related by slaughterhouse condemnation reports over the past ten years, but what the real incidence may be is only problematical; however, I guess it will prove to be much higher as the disease is studied. It is easy for meat inspectors to identify the terminal clinical form, but the microscopic leukemic stage will be missed every time if there is no gross enlargement, since blood studies are not conducted before slaughter."

    The rapid rise of leukemia in cattle is of special interest when you remember that blood cancer, or leukemia, is now a major disease among children in the United States. Perhaps we will soon require blood testing for leukemia in dairy herds.

    Cows with eye cancer may kept until both eyes are blind, then they may be sold for meat if the head is cut off and there is no gross evidence of disease spread to other organs.

    The late Dr. John Harvey Kellogg said when he sat down to a vegetarian dinner, "It is nice to eat a meal and not have to worry about what your food may have died from."

    No one knows better than meat inspectors how much disease there is among animals slaughtered for food. A friend calling my office to sell audiometers (instruments to determine the degree of deafness) told me his wife attended a banquet and ordered a vegetable plate. At her side sat a stranger who also chose a vegetable plate.

    The man said, "Pardon me, but are you a vegetarian?"

    "Yes," she replied. "Are you?"

    "No," he answered, "I am a meat inspector."

    When I was a medical student we were give glass test tubes to be used for growing bacteria that cause human disease such as typhoid, staphylococci, and bubonic plague. The professor had us make up some beef tea, pour a little into each test tube, and place a cotton cork on top. We sterilized the tubes and inoculated them with these dangerous bacteria. The germs all thrived on beef tea. It was a perfect medium for them.

    I read in my pediatrics text book by the distinguished Dr. Emmett L Holt of New York City that if two dogs were put on a leash and one fed water and the other beef tea, the dog getting water would live longer, for beef tea does not contain any nourishment whatsoever if the fat is skimmed off, but does contain urinary wastes, which would quickly poison the dog.

    Meat is the most putrefactive of all foods. When it "spoils" in the intestines it can make the person more violently ill than any other kind of food. This fact helps us to understand why the members of some African tribes in native life seldom have appendicitis or cancer, for they seldom eat meat until they move into the cities, where these disease are frequent among them as among Europeans.

    When it comes to poultry, we face an alarming situation. Recently I flew to East Lansing, Michigan, and spent a day visiting a special research project started more than twenty years ago by the Federal Government in collaboration with 25 state universities to try to control malignancy in chickens. The problem has become so serious that it threatens the poultry industry of the United States.

    We have learned that cancer in fowl has several forms. Besides the usual form in which cancerous tumors are found, there is a carrier form in which a chicken may live out its natural life with no sign of cancer but at the same time be infecting other fowls.

    This form of cancer is so difficult to detect that the only way the research men can finally determine whether a chicken has the disease is to incubate an egg from the suspected fowl for 14 days. The egg is then sterilized on the surface, carefully broken, and the embryo removed. From it the liver is taken, and a small portion injected into the breast muscle of another chicken. If a cancerous tumour develops at inoculation, it is known then and only that the hen that laid the egg has the disease.

    There is small chance that an inspector will cull out every diseased fowl, and still less chance that dad will be able to pick a healthy bird for Thanksgiving. So widespread is the disease among chickens that one of the scientists studying the project, Dr. Eugene F Oakberg, wrote in a poultry journal:

    "The conclusions drawn must consider the possibility that all chickens show the basic microscopic lesions of lymphomatosis. Poultry Science.

    Since the virus, or germ, cause of cancer has now been quite well established, the possibility or even probability that in eating meat, fish, or fowl a person is going to eat some of them laden with malignancy virus poses a problem. Dr. Wendell Stanley, eminent virus scientist who received the Nobel prize for this work in 1957, has pretty well convinced the medical world at long last that, like all other granulomatous diseases, cancer is no exception and has a germ cause.

    This agrees with a statement by Mrs Ellen White recently discovered by the Cornell biologist Dr Clive M McCay to have been written fifty years in advance of medical science, in which she says:

    "People are continually eating flesh that is filled with tuberculosis and cancerous germs. Tuberculosis, cancer, and other fatal disease are thus communicated." The Ministry of Healing, page 313

    Because it is now know that leukemia is rapidly increasing among cattle and a cow may have the disease in her blood long before the appearance of tumors, I predict that erelong both milk cows and laws compelling this practice will be enacted as a public health measure to protect the consumers of milk and meat.

    Once I was fishing in the cold waters of Yellowstone Lake. A man warned me not to eat the fish.

    "They have worms in them," he said.

    I examined several and found it to be true. When halibut is fried, worms often crawl out.

    Each winter in Florida a friend takes us twenty miles out into the Gulf in a fast boat. On the last trip out, as we returned to the dock our captain picked up a fish, split it with a sharp knife held the thin section up to the light, and pointed out worms embedded in the flesh. Although with its fins and scales it is classed as edible, or clean, fish according to the Mosaic law, those worms certainly didn't look inviting.

    On the desk in front of me is a clipping form a recent Lost Angeles Times entitled "Disease Causes Halt of Some Trout Imports." The article tells of California Fish and Game Department turning back six tank cars of rainbow trout fingerling that were shipped into California to stock our lakes and streams but were found to be infected with liver cancer. The article says:

    "Great numbers of trout are imported into the state by private interests, who sell the fish to owners of private pondsc Fish and game experts are trying to find the cause of the disease."

    Rabbits are susceptible to disease of many kinds. As a lad I had a friend who used to hunt rabbits and sell them. I often helped him clean them and noticed that nearly all cottontails were infested with tapeworm. One day I killed one and offered it to a neighbour, who remarked as he thanked me, "You don't know what you're missing."

    I said, "I am missing a lot of tapeworms."

    Since President Eisenhower had his heart attack, the medical world has discovered the relation between diet and diseases of the heart and blood vessels. Now we are told to avoid saturated fatty acids, found largely in animals fats, Recent discoveries brought to light the fact that rimming off the fat of meats will gain little advantage, for even of the lean meats we know 75 percent to be in the saturated-fatty-acid column.

    Dr. Newburg of the University of Michigan, who was called to Washington as an expert on nutrition during the last war, told me that he was very critical of the diet of the American soldiers. He said they were being fed too much meat and too many calories. This diet, he said, tended to make them too heavy, and it hardened their arteries. Autopsies performed in Korea showed 75 percent of American soldiers had hardened arteries regardless of their age. Korean soldiers, on a simple diet of vegetables, cereals, and very little meat, showed essentially no hardening of the arteries.

    Without meat, how can people get enough protein? W.C. Rose of the University of Illinois, an authority in the field of protein, says that "less than 23 grams a day is all one needs."

    If a man were to eat meat, eggs, or milk he would still get on the average 83 grams of protein a day. A woman would get 61 grams a day. This fact was discovered by Dr Mervyn Hardinge of the College of Medical Evangelists under Dr Fredrick J Stare of Harvard, well known authority on nutrition.

    Dr U D Registe, leading biochemist, and Dr Hardinge both active in the field of human nutrition, said to me that fruit alone, if amply supplied in sufficient variety, would provide people with enough protein to meet the actual body demand.

    Probably neither scientist would recommend such a drastic program, but it serves to emphasize that the meat interests have oversold Americans on the high protein idea. It is well known that people may go for a number of days without protein, yet suffer no bad results.

    Of course, a balanced diet is best, but the evidence goes to show that meat is an unnecessary factor in the eating program, and it may introduce substances tending to increase the chronic diseases, the degenerative diseases, the acute disease, and infections.

    We have the example of a whole nation being forced by war onto a vegetarian program - Denmark during the first world war in 1918. Blockaded by sea and land, the nation was faced with a food shortage.

    To fee a cow, kill the cow, and eat the meat meant a loss of 90 percent of the food fed the cow.

    Dr Hindehede, a notable authority on nutrition, was called to the emergency by the King of Denmark.

    He put the nation on a meatless program for a year. Many thought it would be disastrous; instead, it established a world record for lowered death rate - 34 percent among the male population and nearly as much lowering among the female population, with a marked decrease in the illness rate. Eating meat the next year sent the death rate back to its prewar level.

    Careful observation of the effects of meat eating on thousands of my patients for 45 years has led me to agree with the leading writer on health, Mrs Ellen G White, who wrote in the book Medical Ministry, pages 266, 267.

    "Meat is the greatest disease breeder that can be introduced into the human system."

    For those who like the flavour of meat, some very tasty foods made from grains and nuts are available. Dr Stare of Harvard wrote me that a diet which included mixed grains, fruits, vegetables, and legumes (peas, beans, soybeans, lentils) with some nuts was adequate when meat was left out.

    Research carried out at the College of Medical Evangelists has demonstrated that a meatless diet can be adequate when it includes meatlike dishes made from nuts, grains, and vegetables. These vegetable "meat" dishes help to make the changeover to a nonflesh program easier.

    I keep my table supplied with a variety of delicious foods, and the lack of meat never bothers my mind. After studying animal disease in the laboratory and observing the effect of a flesh diet on my patients these many years, I would find it difficult indeed to eat flesh again.

    I quite agree with the leading nutritionist of John Hopkins University, Dr E V McCollum who gave it as his opinion that anyone who chooses to eliminate flesh food from his diet is better off.
    Last edited by Korn; Aug 11th, 2010 at 10:08 AM. Reason: Fixed text formatting

  20. #20
    coney
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    Default Re: Addiction to meat?

    Meat is certainly an addiction, like sugar or smoking or drinking. The stuff they put into meat is a fix for our system, and humans get the meat fix sometimes many meals per day. It's hard to quit that kind of thing.

    I like meat and potatoes kind of meals, so I end up buying the meat analogs sometimes, just to have the "satisfying meal" like when i was eating meat. But I do really like sauteed tofu and a pile of veggies and rice.

    I recently started making my own meat, which is cheaper and that way I can season it the way I want. Got most of those recipes off of vegan-food.net

  21. #21
    grail's Avatar
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    Default Re: Addiction to meat?

    I gave up meat a month ago - I don't miss it. I miss fish, but I think I miss it because I live in the Midwest and it's considered a "luxury" good - like I wouldn't miss it as much if I could get it all the time. fAtkins is all the rage around here, and if anything was going to cure me of meat, it was this stinky, horrific diet.

    Dairy is another matter. Milk is ok, but I really love to eat cheese. I haven't been able to find a food that "feels" quite the same way - something about the texture.

    I'm working very slowly away from dairy - I stopped drinking milk, eating yoghurt, etc. But the cheese is proving the hardest to give up. That and wine..

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Addiction to meat?

    When I was struggling with quitting drinking I came across the SMART Recovery website and learned several tools that helped me to make the change. I've found those same tools helped me with the decision to stop eating meat.

    1. Cost/Benefit analysis: This is pretty easy tool to use. Just write down all the costs of eating meat, the benefits of eating meat, the costs of not eating meat/the benefits of not eating meat.

    If You ever feel an urge to just have a little bit just get out your CBA and read through it. I resisted doing this for a while, but it really helped with my drinking and it keeps me on track with my eating in difficult social situations where I feel pressure to eat meat.

    2. AVRT Addictive Voice Recognition Technique. This is about being aware of our internal dialog and recogniztion of the irrational beliefs that fuel urges. If you listen to someone else talk about why they need to eat meat it can be easy to spot the irrational beliefs that support their arguments. LIstening to self talk and spotting our own irrational beliefs can be a bit more difficult. THe SMART website explains this one better.

    3. ABC's. Activating events or triggers
    Beliefs
    Consequences

    4. USA Unconditional Self Acceptance

    THese tools come from the school of behavioral psychologists I think. They can be used for just about any behavior change even anger addictions and eating disorders.

    It took me quite a while to finally quit drinking. I was drinking almost everyday for a while then I decided to quit and I'd quit for a week and drink for a while. It took me a while to learn that I really just can't drink. Last year I think I had 4 or 5 slips. Sure a big improvent over drinking every day, but not good enough either. It's only been a few months since I had a drink, but finally I'm not getting urges to drink anymore.

    Christmas day will be a challenge for both my alcohol and meat addictions. The traditional family meal is prime rib and red wine. My brother in law is an ass and will make a big deal about my not eating it. He will probably go to great lengths to make sure that everything has meat in it. Merry christmas.

    Oh yeah, having a plan or statagie was a key tool in quitting drinking so my plan for Christmas day is to bring my own food and beverage and bring enough to share. I'm going to make hummus and pita for apps with a veggie tray, Fruit salad, a bean dish and a rice dish. Hmmm I feel better about it already.

  23. #23
    dresdown
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    Default Re: Addiction to meat?

    would never touch meat again no need for it so many great alternatives

  24. #24
    ♥♥♥ Tigerlily's Avatar
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    Default Re: Addiction to meat?

    I don't know if this was said because I only skimmed the replies, but could you be addicted to the additives found in the meat?
    Peace, love, and happiness.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Addiction to meat?

    munchymkr- i ate a lot of meat as a child, and was a real meat eater. after my decision to become veggie at 15 i really have never gone back since. i think its somewhat harder for people like you, who really enjoy the taste of meat, but it doesn't it make being vegan so much sweeter, because you know you have the inner strength to live a cruelty free lifestyle. i honestly couldn't ever comprehend the thought of eating meat now i know what goes on.

    if you really are struggling, watch an animal rights video of where meat comes from and you'd have to be a pretty hard bastard to eat meat after that

  26. #26

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    Default Re: Addiction to meat?

    Since I gave up meat I seem to have become addicted to chocolate. I always read the contents carefully as often what is sold as dark chocolate still contains milk.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Addiction to meat?

    I can say I was definatly addicted to cheese. I was at the point of my vegetarianism that I wouldnt eat geletin, or wear leather, but I would eat cheese, and at home use "veggie" cheese w/ casien in it. I tried giving it up a few times, but man o man whenever i would smell a pizza it was a struggle, and would cave.

    It wasnt until a few months ago that I got to the point, that saying something is "too hard" isnt a real excuse and the hypocrisy of what I was doing, and gave it up for good.

    After all this time, when someone has a pizza, omg it smells so good lol. Its not quite so hard to abstain now, but that first week, holy crap, talk about withdrawl, lol.




    Giving up aspartame was hard too. Went through some withdrawl. I chewed about a pack of gum a day lol. at like 3 at a time, so it was a big switch to not chewing at all. BTW, does anyone know of a company that makes a sugarless mint chewing gum that doesnt have aspartame in it? Peelu does but its not the best.

  28. #28

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    Default "I love meat too much"

    Not sure if this is the right category to post questions about "how to respond" but here goes...

    I've heard people use the line "I love meat too much to give it up" or "I love cheese too much..." Usually, I hear that before we get into any extended discussions about animal cruelty.

    But two months ago, I met someone who found out I was vegan and was really interested in talking to me about it. He said he was seriously considering becoming a vegetarian. We talked for quite some time about it and I even sent him information. I saw him last night and he tells me, "I've decided to continue eating meat. I just love it too much."

    I had no response. Just didn't know what to say to that.

    What woudl you have said?

  29. #29
    fortified twinkle's Avatar
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    Default Re: "I love meat too much"

    Apparently, Howard Lyman gives talks where he likens explaining veganism to applying a layer of paint - sometimes it takes more than one layer to do the job, and if you're the first layer you're probably not going to cover everything, no matter how glossy you are

    The person you spoke to will, I'm sure, be aware in their heart that they gave you a bit of a lame response, but they may have all sorts of reasons for wanting to continue to eat meat just now. You just have to hope that the next veg*n they meet will carry on the good work you've started... In my case, it wasn't even a vegetarian who I attribute to my first deciding to look seriously at veganism - my tutor asked me if I was vegan and I said "oh no! I'm not that extreme!" and then I actually started thinking about why I thought it was extreme, did some online research...

  30. #30

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    Default Re: "I love meat too much"

    Thanks for the response. I think I'll let the next vegan convince him. I've done my part.

  31. #31
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: "I love meat too much"

    "I love meat too much to give it up" or "I love cheese too much..."
    He's probably very honest, and would probably have been even more honest if he would have said 'I'm just so attached to my own habits', or 'I care more about myself than animals', or 'I care more about short term pleasure than long term health effects of my diet, or 'If you can guarantee that vegan food is as good as what I eat now, I'll consider trying it'...

    They think they have to sacrifice something else than bad, unhealthy habits that they probably aren't happy about in the first place.

  32. #32
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    Default Re: "I love meat too much"

    I like that.....about the layers of paint.....so true too. But that "I just like meat too much" is the excuse I've heard so often. I just shrug and say
    ......not in an angry tone........"OK, but just remember, you're PAYING people
    to abuse and kill defenseless animals so you can eat them.

  33. #33
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    Smile Re: "I love meat too much"

    I would simply say...

    "Yea sorry to hear its not for you...it takes a very special person to be vegan, we have a heart and conscious superior to all of those around us."

  34. #34
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    Smile Re: "I love meat too much"

    I'm for that Charliegirl!! It's about time we stopped behaving like
    we we're some kind of inferior minority or something.

    We may still be a minority but we're sure not inferior....that's for sure!
    But I always tell people.......hey, I have absolutely no right to stand in judgement of you or anybody else!
    I use to be the biggist hypocrate you ever saw.......I use to scream
    about people wearing fur....or for buying animals from breeders while I.....
    Miss Great Animal Lover of the World" went right on eating them!!
    How could I have been so stupid & insensitive?

    But really......we've made changes for the better so why shouldn't we take pride in that?

  35. #35
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    Default Re: "I love meat too much"

    it is quite annoying when they say that. i mean why does there HAVE to be meat in their diet? i dont understand.i was explaining about all the different foods i can eat and what i make and what i enjoy to one of my boyfriend's friends, you know to show him that being vegan doesnt mean eating salad all day.

    he seemed interested then, in the end, he kinda laughed, turned to me and said "i'd rather have meat" - why? whats so fricking great about it? shouldnt it matter whether food tastes good or not? why does it have to be that there are animals in it?? there doesnt need to be animals in it, to make it taste good.

    urgh.

  36. #36
    Good sperm
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    Default Re: "I love meat too much"

    A typical conversation:

    Omni: 'I love meat too much'
    Me: 'you sure do love it too much, cos eating it is gonna kill you way earlier than it should'
    Omni: 'no it wont it's healthy'
    Me: 'HA HA HA HA HA HA HA. You're funny. Oh what, you were serious? Wow you really dont think about what you put in your mouth do you?'

    *walk away shaking head*


    A bit harsh? Maybe. But I'm feeling harsh today

  37. #37
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    Default Re: "I love meat too much"

    I hear that phrase quite a bit and I usually respond with something like, “I really like the “taste” of some meats as well and I thought it would be difficult to give it up—but you’d be amazed at how simple it is once you educate yourself on factory farming, slaughterhouses, not to mention the health benefits--plus vegetarian food is scrumptious and bountiful once you know what to eat”. Then you can offer to give them a list of good products to try and perhaps a couple of recipes (no elaborate recipes as this may scare a person off!). This way you’re not downing them, but instead you are showing that you understand what they are feeling.

    You can also tell them to perhaps eat 1-2 veggie meals per week, then to increase the meals per week every so often.
    I tried this approach with a gal at university and, after 6 months of reducing meat and increasing veggie meals, she has completely given meat up. Now she is working on 1-2 dairy free days per week.

    Now I have to mention that I wasn’t worried about missing meat at all when I gave it up—but I did worry about cheese as I thought I would crumble up without it, but was shocked at how easy it was! Also, I didn’t have to gradually give up meat when I became vegetarian, nor did I have to slowly give up dairy and eggs when I chose to be vegan—both occurred overnight…but I’m learning that it isn’t that easy for everyone!
    It is challenging to stand as a minority; but doing so sometimes makes a hero.

  38. #38
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    Default Re: "I love meat too much"

    Tell him to read Diet for a New America, or The China Study.... he won't want to ever eat meat again. Trust me.

  39. #39
    cedartree cedarblue's Avatar
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    Default Re: "I love meat too much"

    many vegans do not become so because they do not like the taste of meat - many do like the taste and still give it up - unfortunately sometimes there are still certain foods that i smell that i liked the taste of very much but.........

  40. #40
    AКЌİĻҚΪҜ
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    Default Re: "I love meat too much"

    Blegh. Well I like meat, but I don't eat it anymore, yay I'm making such a sacrifice! I miss you, cheese, milk, dairy and omelettes (Sniff). I can live without a nice juicy steak anyways, plus I've been attacking vegetables more sooo...Yay me.

    "I like meat too much" Isn't a half-decent excuse, its like the whole I-don't-liek-my-homework-8C complex. If people want to eat meat then fine, but I'd rather people knew what suffering went in their food, like the risk of piggies being boiled alive. Not fun, that meat video made me vegan 8(.

  41. #41
    hydrophilic tipsy's Avatar
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    Default Re: "I love meat too much"

    whenever people say that i just respond that i love living animals too much...
    the aim of life is to live, and to live means to be aware, joyously, dunkenly, serenely, divinely aware.
    -henry miller

  42. #42
    Healthy's Avatar
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    Default Re: "I love meat too much"

    That's beautiful Jjdaiquiri -- I'm going to use that one too now

  43. #43
    John's Avatar
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    Default Re: "I love meat too much"

    He sounds like an honest man. Maybe after eatiing some good vegetarian (meaning vegan) meals his id will realize that the taste of flesh can be rivaled by blood-free food.

  44. #44
    AR Activist Roxy's Avatar
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    Default Re: "I love meat too much"

    Quote jjdaiquiri View Post
    whenever people say that i just respond that i love living animals too much...
    I like that one too

  45. #45
    I eve's Avatar
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    Default Re: "I love meat too much"

    Whenever I walk into the local supermarket (BiLo), it means walking past the stall where they are turning chickens on a spit. The smell is nauseating, but I'm prepared to hold my nose and walk quickly by to reach the counter that I want. I can't credit that many years ago I ate chicken and presumably enjoyed it! Ugggghh
    Eve

  46. #46
    AR Activist Roxy's Avatar
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    Default Re: "I love meat too much"

    I know the exact smell you mean Eve. It's revolting and really hits me in the pit of my stomach. I can't believe that once upon a time, I (presumably) enjoyed it too!

  47. #47
    Lover of ducks Mila's Avatar
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    Default Re: "I love meat too much"

    Oh, I hate that excuse. I had a PolySci professor whom gave the whole class exerpts about the filthy conditions of slaughterhouses from Fast Food Nation and still told the class, "I tried going vegetarian but I like my meat!" (With the last four syllables sounding like George Lopez saying "I got this!") If he were truly so fond of his meat, I doubt he'd have arms by now.

    My usual reaction to that excuse is, "It truly takes a noble heart to sacrifice the most vital needs of one sentient being for the basest fancies of another."
    I'm just a love machine and I won't work without a union contract.

  48. #48

    Default Re: "I love meat too much"

    I hear this one a lot too. I usually explain that there are substitutes available if they want, and many that are quite realistic too. Jumping in with morality doesn't generally seem to work I've found, since they're thinking on such a selfish basic personal level. Appeal to that - tell them they can have everything they want, but cruelty free.

    Sometimes I still do miss meat. I did like it. But I don't like the thought of it. The ideal way would be to feed them for a month and let them realise they aren't missing anything.

    Or keep dropping honest truths into conversation....my cousin the other day asked if I get vegan replacements for a roast beef dinner. I told her I wouldn't want to eat anything that resembled a roast beef dinner because it would remind me too much of carved up pieces of dead rotting flesh. And changed the subject. Pretty harsh, but it's the truth....she asked...

  49. #49
    CATWOMAN sandra's Avatar
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    Default Re: "I love meat too much"

    I wonder how he would feel if he met a cannibal who said 'I love 'human' meat too much'
    I like Sandra, she keeps making me giggle. Daft little lady - Frosty

  50. #50
    AКЌİĻҚΪҜ
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    Default Re: "I love meat too much"

    Very sad I think 8). I also love human meat too much, veganism says nothing of eating mere humans )D.

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