B12 - is there something wrong with nature?

[Korn]

Do you believe that if people would live a 'natural' life, be more exposed to good bacteria, eat fresh, organic food, not use amalgam, not drink coffee, not drink chlorinated water or plants that have been watered with chlorinated water, avoid fluor, not use oral contraceptives, not drink water from tubes copper tubes, not eat so much cooked, frozen and canned food as they do, not use sugar, avoid tobacco and alcohol, not have a possible history of B12-eating parasites from animal products/pets, not have a storage of mercury in their bodies from eating fish, not be exposed to pollution from cars, not use microwave owens, eat more of the plants that are most rich in B12, possibly include fresh algae and seaweed in their diet, if they never had used antibiotics and consumed a lot of other B12 reducing chemicals, if their colons weren't totally polluted by a life on a very unclean diet, would get enough sunlight and natural calcium and even had started life with a healthy mother that let them continue breastfeeding as long as they wanted (OK, I'll stop here ) .... do you still think they would need B12 supplements in order to remain healthy?

[eve]

Quite a tall order, Korn. I'll stick to my daily B12 tablet to be on the safe side!

[phillip888]

I don't think we would need extra B12 on a plant diet, in fact I don't think most of the things you listed can reduce B12 levels enough to cause harm on their own. I think the biggest problem is the lack of B12 producing bacteria in the food chain, and the fact that many people are exposed to almost all the things you listed and often...

[DontJustDoSomething, SitThere]

I'll stick to my daily B12 tablet to be on the safe side!

Hello, Eve... don't you think all the meat eaters out there with B12 deficiency already proven that consuming "enough" B12 isn't "enough", and not safe?

[eve]

Hello, Eve... don't you think all the meat eaters out there with B12 deficiency already proven that consuming "enough" B12 isn't "enough", and not safe?

Sorry but what do you mean? I know of meat eaters with B12 deficiency, and their docs recommend eating more meat. Consuming meat is not the answer, but there's no doubt that B12 deficiency is a problem to omnivores and vegans alike. I've read somewhere it could be due to the fact that households are so 'hygienic' nowadays, whereas years ago kids ate dirt in with food. As I said, I'll stick to my daily B12 supplement.

[DontJustDoSomething, SitThere]

I just mean that consuming "enough" B12 doesn't necessarily mean that one is on the safe side, which is obvious as there are so many meat eaters that get plenty B12 from their diet (and many of them eat multivitamins in addition to their animal based diet) - and they still become B12 deficient.

Ignoring B12 ain't "safe" either. The only safe solution might be to strive for a more natural life style, and include B12 as a supplement if needed.

[Trendygirl]

Did you know that if we were like chimpanzees and ate our own poo then we would have enough B12 in our diet. It is something to so with cultivation.

We would also have enough vitamin D if we all walked around naked. It’s not our diet that is stopping us getting it, its our culture. However I would prefer to pop a few pills than eat my own poo and walk around naked!

[wuggy]

I think it would take a complete overhaul of the whole Planet to acheive a truly 'natural' state. I do hope to live much more 'naturally' though, and am working on it now!
I know one Vegan who refuses to take any supplements atall, to prove how healthy being Vegan is. However, I have been B vitamin deficient before, it wasn't good, so I have Soya milk (fortified) every day, and take a supplement.

[Korn]

Did you know that if we were like chimpanzees and ate our own poo then we would have enough B12 in our diet. It is something to so with cultivation.

The example with eating poo is often mentioned by non-vegans (or some vegans) that assume that the chimpanzees' poo is the reason they don't have B12 problems. Normally they forget to look at all the orther differences between how chimpanzees in humans live: fluorized water from copper tubes, amalgam, non-organic food, non-fresh food, non frozen/cooked/canned food and so on. But I agree that it most likely has to do with culture.

We would also have enough vitamin D if we all walked around naked. ItÕs not our diet that is stopping us getting it, its our culture. However I would prefer to pop a few pills than eat my own poo and walk around naked!

Regarding vitamin D, the main problem in our culture might be that we even during fall/winter/spring have decided to go to work while the sun is helping us with vitamin D, which in most cases means staying indoors. An hour (or less) of sun daily might be enough, even if only our face would be exposed to the sun. If we sometimes get more sun, or more parts of the body is exposed to the sun, the vitamin is stored in the body. So it's a lot easier to deal with vitamin D than with B12.

Anyway, I wouldn't mind if people would walk around naked, as long as they didn't do it chewing on their poo...

[Trendygirl]

I have just read Plant Based Nutrition & Health by Stephen Walsh PhD ISBN 0-907337-26-0, available from the Vegan Society. This book is amazing, it explains a lot and is very well researched.

[Seaside]

If B12 is produced by bacteria, why can't they just isolate the bacteria like they do with other probiotics so people can take them instead of actual Vitamin B12? No one makes a fuss at all about supplementing their diets with probiotics if they have been through a course of antibiotic drugs, or are battling yeast infections. If the modern lifestyle kills these beneficial bacteria, needing to replace them is crucial for everyone, not just vegans. Having a colony of B12-producing bacteria inside your gut that is harmed by the pollutants in the environment, and needing to replace it when this happens, is no different for meat eaters than it is for vegans, and I would rather consume beneficial bacteria than corpses OR tablets. Its no different than a doctor recommending a source of Lactobacillus (usually from yogurt, but it doesn't have to be) after a patient has had a course of antibiotics.

[Seaside]

Nah, I'm just a do-it-yourselfer when it comes to my health.

[Pilaf]

I'm under the impression that eating a strict vegan diet reduces the body's need for B-12 anyway.

[moochbabe]

Is it ok if our multi vitamin alone has vitamin B-12 in it? I've given the vitamin some thought, but figured that this would be enough...but now I would just like to know for sure or not. I would really hate to be defficient!

[Korn]

I'm under the impression that eating a strict vegan diet reduces the body's need for B-12 anyway.

http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=555

[abrennan]

Dear friends

When I participated in the poll I had to say I don't know, I have an opinion but I am not fully confident. I see that there are many great posts and links that I will investigate shortly that may lift my confidence in my opinion.

I take a b12 supplement, irregularly.

But my I like the title of this thread "Is there something wring with nature?" as it fits my opinion.

It does seem strange to me I live in a universe where being vegan is the healthiest, life promoting, disease reducing, ethical way to live except for one teeny weeny microscopic vitamin....b12.

For decades the vegan wave has swamped everything that stood in its way. The protein myth, the calcium myth, iron, etc, etc and etc, yet we are stalled by this tiny vitamin.

I couple years ago I had a debate with people from the USFDA and they were very unconvincing in defending their ideology. Most of the information they used to defenf the stance sounded like an advertisement from the cattlemens association.

I could be wrong, hence my voting "I don't know", but I sense a myth wating to be busted.

I could accept that the toxic pollution we have poured into the stream of our lives has profound effects on our physiolgy, like stripping the vitamins from our system and leaching the calcium from our bones.

But I am not convinced that out of all the nutritional factors the universe left us without one. That in the millions of years of our evolution we moved from being tree dwelling possibly 100 percent vegan fruit and nut eating critter to a larger mammal who needs to eat animals to get access to only one microscopic, but important, vitamin.

I'm no expert on this, that's my intuition speaking. The evidence for the benefits of a vegan lifestyle is large, very large, all of life encompassing. I think that we'll find that, when not intrerfered with, humans produce and re-absorb b12 like other vegan animals.

I might post back here after I look at all those other posts and links.

Antony
Australia

[moochbabe]

Antony, I really agree with u. I find it hard to believe that, had we not polluted our bodies with a number of man-made catastrophies, we would not be able to live without having to supplemet vitamin B12. Yet, I think that with everything that we, and past generations, have done to our bodies we need to take supplements or do something in order to prevent a deficiency. I think that one day, if we continue to be very healthy and vegan then we will be able to "fix" the generations to come, and they will be able to live the way nature intended. Let's all keep our fingers crossed and keep the veggies coming!

[abrennan]

Let's all keep our fingers crossed and keep the veggies coming!

I'm with you Veg On!

Antony

[Korn]

Hi Antony, and welcome!

'But I am not convinced that out of all the nutritional factors the universe left us without one.'

As you may know, I don't think so either. Now, IF the universe would have been playing games with us by leaving out one nutrient, I would see that only as a little hint to humans that we need to cultivate that nutrient using non-harmful methods not involving killing animals or keeping them in captivity.

We were born with almost everything we need in this world except warm clothes, so maybe there's someone or something out there that wants us to cultivate nature (without harming it), for example by making clothes out of cotton or make B12 on the surface of molasses.

There are many plants that contain B12, the question is more about the amounts provided, what it is that destroys B12, how to reduce the needs for B12, and most of all to understand the mystery associated with the so called B12 analogues. What are they? Are they simply B12 molecules that have grown old and died?

After having spent some time focusing on the B12 issue, it looks more and more like the whole thing is not about what you eat, but what you drink.

And instead of only focusing on only what we eat to get B12, we may need to focus on how fresh it is. B12 is destroyed by heat/age/light, and in my attempts to start some mini-research on B12 in plants, I have learned that many of the test-results we see are not performed on fresh plants, but on plants that are exposed to not only heat/age/light, but also to chlorinated water and other nasty stuff.

Many B12-related areas that desperately need more research. This research probably would show that a lot of the existing B12-research is misleading, or even useless.

'I'm no expert on this, that's my intuition speaking' I've seen interviews with a few Nobel Prize winners who said that this was how the process that lead them to the price were starting. Go ahead!

'I sense a myth wating to be busted'. So do I. Step one to bust that myth would probably be to help as many pro-vegan people as possible to understand that they shall not fight on the wrong side; not the 'vegan food is not natural'-choir.... Ufortunately, some vegan writers and other 'authorities' suffer from the Vegan Hypocondraic Syndrome, and are most of all afraid of getting sued by saying something wrong that possibly could get them into trouble in the future. Some vegans who are not at all interested in whether the vegan diet is our natural diet or not, seem to forget that many of us have deep respect for nature, and what 'it's' intentions are, and therefore are happy with recommending pills - and only that.

The most common question vegans seem to get, is 'But where do you get your nutrients from?'. If we can both let people know that B12 needs special attenton, due to a number of reasons, and at the same time break the myth that B12 only exist in animal products, which clearly is not the case, we have already moved a big step forward.

In science, things have a reason, even non-reliability (plants are often said to be a unreliable B12 source). I'm not saying the plants most of us eat ARE reliable B12 sources, but what exactly is that unreliability? THAT needs some serious research and attention.

[eclectic_one]

I know I'm coming into this WAY late, but T. Colin Campbell in The China Study (I think) points out that if the vegetables are grown in healthy soil with lots of micro-organisms--NOT like the soils in most industrial-type farms (especially here in the US)--the plants absorb some B12, which would probably end up supplying it to us. Unfortunately, my understanding is that most "advanced" technological Western nations have destroyed their topsoil and the nutrients within, so the veggies aren't as nutritious all around--especially the B12 issue.

[marika5]

I'll put it this way: even if we were living on an island paradise with extremely nutient-rich soils and perfect plant food sources and none of the adverse effects, I'd still want to take a B12 supplement. One could argue the case that taking it from a supplement is a more direct way to obtain it in the diet than through eating animals--they get it from bacteria, doesn't it make more sense for us to get it from a bacterially-derived source, too, rather than using the animals as a source? If we were eating "dirty" plants we'd probably still take in only traces compared to what we could get from a supplement.

Of all the potential threats to B12 metabolism, I suspect that old age is the biggest one. As we get older our "intrinsic factor" is diminished, which is why (I think, haven't pulled up the source lately to be certain) up to 40% of elderly meat eaters are deficient in B12.

[moochbabe]

i hope i never get a b-12 deficiency, that's all i know, and that's y i continue to take a supplement. what u say about the direct source really does make sense, i think there are a lot of factors that lead to b-12 deficiency, but that someday, if we can reverse the damage for the future, there will no longer be that problem, i mean they didn't have it (that scientists can tell) in the times when humans only gathered plant food to eat...

[greenworlds]

Do you believe that if people would live a 'natural' life, be more exposed to good bacteria, eat fresh, organic food, not use amalgam, not drink coffee, not drink chlorinated water or plants that have been watered with chlorinated water, avoid fluor, not use oral contraceptives, not drink water from tubes copper tubes, not eat so much cooked, frozen and canned food as they do, not use sugar, avoid tobacco and alcohol, not have a possible history of B12-eating parasites from animal products/pets, not have a storage of mercury in their bodies from eating fish, not be exposed to pollution from cars, not use microwave owens, eat more of the plants that are most rich in B12, possibly include fresh algae and seaweed in their diet, if they never had used antibiotics and consumed a lot of other B12 reducing chemicals, if their colons weren't totally polluted by a life on a very unclean diet, would get enough sunlight and natural calcium and even had started life with a healthy mother that let them continue breastfeeding as long as they wanted (OK, I'll stop here ) .... do you still think they would need B12 supplements in order to remain healthy?

No

[Romac]

B-12 breakthrough!

Nature rules!
Stolen from the veggieboards:

http://www.notmilk.com/vitaminb12.html

Vitamin B-12, Sex & Internal Secretions


Warning to my readers:

Today's column contains explicit sexual themes. If you embarrass easily, or if your religious, moral, or ethical beliefs prevent you from reading material of a sexual nature, please, read no more. In today's commentary, I discuss the science of sex in as dignified and delightful a manner as I am able, sometimes using a bit of humor, but continuously recognizing that such concepts may be offensive to some people, so please, if you find such discussion inappropriate, stop reading immediately. If you are easily offended by material of a sexual nature, please exercise the use of your delete button now.

Without embarrassment, this is a subject that needs to be discussed. I am past the point of being disgusted by know-it-all vegetarian and vegan nutritionists and dieticians who believe that one must take artificial supplements derived from cow intestines, containing Vitamin B-12 in order to maintain good health. The fact that vegans have B-12 in their bloodstreams is evidence enough that we're somehow obtaining it. Low dose, high dose, it really doesn't matter. Fact is that we need just a few micrograms of B-12, and a five-year supply is stored in the average human liver. That fact alone negates the scare tactics of those who criticize
the pure vegan diet, or dispense supplements as a part of their self-sustaining practices.

Vegan blood contains some B-12. In that, there is no debate. Vegan semen and vaginal secretions contain many times more Vitamin B-12 than does human blood.

The solution? Make love. Enjoy oral sex. The ingestion of sexual body secretions from your lover will insure good health for you.

In addition to the usual frogs, snails, and puppy dogs tails, what are little boys made of? What exactly is in semen?

Ten percent of semen consists of sperm cells, up to 500 million per ejaculate. It takes only one sperm cell to fertilize an egg. I often wonder why the other 499,999 are necessary.

What constitutes the other 90% of semen? In addition to enormous amounts of vitamins, enzymes, and amino acids, semen contains up to 20 times the level of Vitamin B-12 as does human blood serum. Vaginal fluids contain a similar makeup, rich in B-12.

Scientists knew this nearly 20 years ago, but had no socially-tactful way to transmit this information to the lay person. (Yeah, I know, you love my use of the English language).

As early as March of 1984, Carmel Bernstein and a team of investigators published evidence in the Journal of Clinical Investigations (73;3, Vitamin B-12 in human seminal plasma) revealing that blood has one-tenth the amount of B-12 as does male semen.

Eight years later, the Scandanavian Journal of Clinical Laboratory Investigations (Hansen, 1992 Nov;52(7):647-52) determined that B-12 levels in human semen run as high as 20 times that of blood. Similar amounts of B-12 have been found in vaginal secretions.

Second and final warning. For those of you unwilling or unable to discuss or partake in the loving art of cunnilingus or fellatio, read no more. What follows is descriptive.

Many people have an aversion to oral sex because of the taste or smell. Can that often be justified? Absolutely.

Long ago, in the days before artificial modern-day perfumes and deodorants were used to mask human odors, people enjoyed body smells. Don Juan would keep handkerchiefs under his armpits and wave them in front of ladies' noses. That action was designed to bring them to arousal from his own natural essences and bouquet which contained pheromones, chemicals
containing natural sexual messengers that communicate instinctual feelings shared by all mammals. Truth revealed: Why does a male dog mount and hump a human female leg, thrusting his pelvis as if in the act of copulation? It's not because he smells your puppy, ladies. It's because he smells your very own pheromones which trigger a genetically pre-determined fixed action pattern in Fido's brain.

On to the olfactory bouquet from your own essences.

Dairy farmers know that if their cows eat onions or garlic less than 30 minutes before milking, those powerfully offensive smells will be included in their body secretions which are then transmitted to their milk. A similar event occurs with human body fluids. You are what you eat. Deer know when meat-eating humans walk into the woods. Vegans have a way with denizens of the forest. Vegans do not eat other living creatures. Deer can tell by human smells. So can dogs and other mammals possessing keener olfactory senses than humans.

For many years, non dairy-using Japanese people called Americans "butter-people," for the rancid smell that would seep out of our pores. I can smell butter people. I am amazed at the number of people calling themselves vegan who are actually dairy users. I can smell the aftermath of pizza 24 hours after a vegan eats one by his or her offensive odor. The mozzarella turns rancid from within. Its smell lingers on a user's breath. Milk the cow and get the garlic or onion milk. Milk the human and get Kentucky-fried chicken essence.

Humans who eat meat ingest large amounts of sulfur-based amino acids. That is one of the qualities of meat protein. The sulfur becomes a part of their own smell and taste. Eat large amounts of methionine and you'll taste quite rancid.

I have met many vegans who relate anecdotal evidence of how other vegans make better lovers because they "taste better." Where are Masters and Johnson when you need them? The good that comes from this column will result in two lovers enjoying a large meal of fresh pineapple before their next bout of foreplay. Gourmets and epicurians of the world, unite. Your next dose of love will contain the best vitamin pill in the world. Was it Mary Poppins who sang, "Just a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down"?

Remember, for B-12, make love, and do so with good taste.

[insubordination]

I take B12 in a daily multivitamin and a separate b12 supplement every other day.

Got my B12 tested the other day and it was double the amount in the upper figure of the range. Guess I can cut back on the supplementation a bit now.

[aloevera]

haha the article above is really interesting, apparently semen is also quite high in zinc? ive heard.
Im not willing to go withoug b12 suppliments, because what i do now will only be evident in my future, so if in doubt, better safe than sorry.

[Korn]

'Better safe than sorry' - if it only was that simple...

[Smiley]

Honey???? Where are you??? Come here please, I need a vitamin B12 shot!! ;-)

[rujoon]

I don't know... but I believe that there is a plant (or maybe more) out there which will have B12 just that it has not been discovered yet.

[Korn]

There are a number of plants containg B12, and ten thousands of plants that have never been tested for B12.

But there are many questions in addition to the one about plants containing B12 or not: how much B12 does these plants contain when we consume them - are we more dependent on access to fresh produce than we are aware of?

Is the B12 active/bioavailable or are they B12 analogues? How problematic are B12 analogues? Do we actually use these plants? Are the B12 in these plants destroyed by chlorinated water etc. before we eat them? Maybe many of us actually do consume B12 from plants, but live in a way that kills that B12.... and so on. So - even by taking B12 supplements (which may contain B12 analogues) we may not be safe.

Meat eaters, who consume B12 from meat are not 'safe' either, because millions of meat eaters are low in B12. Animal products also contain B12 analogues.

[Blueshark]

I think the answer to your question, is that it is perfecly possible that we would not need B12 supplements if we that natural. However it is a hypothetical.

Just a side note on the 'poo' issue. I think that is a moot point considering the amount of crap people eat these day...even tap water...is effectively human water.

[archaeopteryx]

It seems to me that there has probably never been an optimal and humane diet available in the past in any one corner of this planet and that an optimal and humane human diet is a goal towards which we are working (and perhaps achieving) rather than recovering from the past.
Also, it seems to me that, to consider human activity and it's creations as somehow separate from nature is to make an artificial distinction.

I take a supplement regularly.

Vitamin B12 is a beautiful thing by the way. Worth a look at.
http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/vitamins...obalamine.html

[archaeopteryx]

Then again...
What about that 5000 year old vegan Aryan tribe?
Presumably they must be getting their B12 from somewhere.

[herbwormwood]

The orthodox vegan thinking is that "natural" tribes get their vitamin B12 from bacteria and tiny insects on the fruit and veg they eat. Whereas our sanitised lifestyle washes and pesti-cides all B12- carrying life forms off our food.

[archaeopteryx]

If, in an archaic style society a vegan can get B12 from unsanitized nature but in a modern style society a vegan can only get B12 from science, then it seems fortunate that's it's possible for a vegan to get B12 in both an archaic or a modern style society. In each case, nature (incorporating human nature etc.) provides. So...in that light it seems that re: B-12 - there is nothing wrong with nature.

[Koolvedge]

I think nature would take care of it for us, no supplements necessary. I read a study about veg*ns that were brought to England from India, and they started to have serious B-12 deficencies after a while. They linked it to having fruits and vegetables that were too thoroughly washed. In nature {they stated} insects leave B-12 behind in their droppings sometimes, and certain bacteria allows the body to produce small amounts of B-12 when the body is working properly. It's just some info I stumbled across when I was at a raw food semiinar in 2003. I asked alot of questions and receive alot of answers. I went with a good friend who is a Medical Doctor, and we met another one {M.D.} affiliated with the lecture. I've always said that I'd like to get all of my vitamins and minerals from the food that I eat. I don't like the idea of popping pills, if we were meant to do that then they would grow on trees. Just a thought.

[VeganMoominGirl]

I tend to think that we have fucked the b12 out of our eco system. In an ideal world, yes I think we could get enough b12 from a plant-based diet, if our planet was more harmonious and balanced, and if we weren't all so trigger-happy with the dettol spray lol! Still, to be on the safe side, I'm happy with the belt and braces approach: supplement and fortified foods.

[piggy]

I think nature would take care of it for us, no supplements necessary.
...
I don't like the idea of popping pills, if we were meant to do that then they would grow on trees. Just a thought.

i thouroughly agree. my mom has always told me, ever since i can remember, that Nature in itself, (or God, if you will have it,) is perfect (designed life perfectly)
Which means, that everything we need is readily available for us. If everything were left as is, ie, food weren't disinfected by us modern hygiene freaks, as so many of u have mentioned, the B12 problem would be non-existant.
On an off note, it also explains to me why for example refined and processed foods only cause problems...Nature/God created everything to be just right for animals/peoples' consumption..
So instead of eating refined flours and sugars all the time and then running off to the pharmacy for digestion problems, i suggest appreciating what your God, who you so fervently pray to in church each sunday, gave to you

[Koolvedge]

i thouroughly agree. my mom has always told me, ever since i can remember, that Nature in itself, (or God, if you will have it,) is perfect (designed life perfectly)
Which means, that everything we need is readily available for us. If everything were left as is, ie, food weren't disinfected by us modern hygiene freaks, as so many of u have mentioned, the B12 problem would be non-existant.
On an off note, it also explains to me why for example refined and processed foods only cause problems...Nature/God created everything to be just right for animals/peoples' consumption..
So instead of eating refined flours and sugars all the time and then running off to the pharmacy for digestion problems, i suggest appreciating what your God, who you so fervently pray to in church each sunday, gave to you

Thank you so much, your words are so real. God/Nature did create everything perfect, and the Devil is the refinement of things. When someone refines something they say God/Nature made this good but they think they can make it better. All they are doing is de-naturizing it. I think people have forgotten what it feels like to feel good. Running to the pharmacy for a magic pill to cure the problems of eating de-natured foods isn't the answer. There are two ways to solve a problem, 1. A Solution {pills} or 2. Removing the cause of the problem {Stopping the ingestion of unnatural, denatured things}. Most people want that magic pill {which doesn't exist}. They continually eat these addicting substances in hopes of scientist creating something that allows you to abuse your very special body and being able to take a pill so as not to feel the pain {which is the body's way of telling you something is wrong} of the poison which they are consuming {sometimes daily}.

It's amazing how people sometimes go to church and pray then unknowingly participate in the acts of going totally against Nature/God by eating these self destructing foods, and scientifically speaking these drugfoods would logically cause severe behavioral disorders where the person consuming these "things" would defend the notion that their illness is caused by someting else, therefore creating a blend of sickness within the body combined with a sickness of the mind. A person who is truly close to Nature/God will understand that the holy trinity could possibly be the mind, body and soul. The only measure of anyones wealth is their health. Thank you Piggy

[Korn]

In nature {they stated} insects leave B-12 behind in their droppings sometimes

Depending on what kind of lifestyle these Indians had before they moved to England, there could be at least 20-30 things that changed in their lifestyle - changes that may influence their B12 levels. People who believe that there is no B12 whatsoever except in animal products like to thing that if vegans actually consume B12, it comes from insect droppings or dirt/uncleanliness...

I don't like the idea of popping pills, if we were meant to do that then they would grow on trees. Just a thought.

Well, I have said that in the past too, but I can't say the same about ie. clothes. Unlike many other species, humans obviously are meant to 'cultivate nature', this COULD be that case for B12 as well: that in order to get all the nutrients we need, we need to cultivate them, ie. by cultivating B12 from bacteria (the way B12 in supplements are created). So in a way, there's no need to insist that nature provides us with all we need, and that we don't need to cultivate anything. After all, we don't walk around or sleep naked all life, in all seasons, without roofs protecting us from rain or walls protecting us from the wind. Having said that, it definitely looks to me like nature 'by default' is providing enough B12, it's just that most of us don't live in a natural 'default' environment...

[Koolvedge]

Point taken, I think the study did narrow it down though, but I think you're right in noting that B-12 probably comes from plant sources more than insects or bacteria. The raw-foodist did make a point in saying that the body itself when running effeciently does produces small amounts. I think that the unnatural enviroments do have alot to do with it. Clothing is more needed in the northern/southern climates from the equator, but I know that in the hot weather I feel like running around naked. My body feels much better and I'm not too far away from wearing the loin cloth if not nothing at all in the 90 dergee or hotter weather. Nature always wins by default to me. If you go against nature you go against yourself. Humans have been so denatured that we sometimes have to take other steps to combat what has happened.

Regarding cultivated food versus wild food I think David Wolfe had a good point in saying that a wild apple has a flavor where tartness, sweet, spicy, mineral type taste come out of it as opposed to cultivated apples. I've eaten many wild nature seeded foods when I was in the islands of the Carriebean and there is no contest. I also believe that eating foods with your hands taste much better than with utensils and maybe it carries a different energy. Then there's the debate on cutting foods as opposed to breaking or crushing them. Garlic produces another compound when crushed {I think it's allicin, not sure}. Natives of certain cultures use to say that when you cut food you cut the soul of it. All of this is something that warrants further investigation and it just makes my mind drool over the possibilities that could be there. You have me doing a little research on this Sunday so we can have some very profound discussions. Thanks

[piggy]

Unlike many other species, humans obviously are meant to 'cultivate nature', this COULD be that case for B12 as well: that in order to get all the nutrients we need, we need to cultivate them, ie. by cultivating B12 from bacteria (the way B12 in supplements are created). So in a way, there's no need to insist that nature provides us with all we need, and that we don't need to cultivate anything. After all, we don't walk around or sleep naked all life, in all seasons, without roofs protecting us from rain or walls protecting us from the wind. Having said that, it definitely looks to me like nature 'by default' is providing enough B12, it's just that most of us don't live in a natural 'default' environment...

in my opinion:

humans aren't MEANT to cultivate nature, but because of the way evolution has taken, it just so happens they do. some of the "unnatural" things we do aren't neccessary (most, i'd think)
for example, according to evolution theories, man originated in equatorial regions, where there would have been no need for clothing. assuming that man then migrated into colder climates not because of necessity, but for other reasons, one could thus say that man has created a need for clothing.

just my humble opinon we don't want to anger the boss

[Koolvedge]

When I think about it I'm not really sure if we were meant to cultivate nature. When things are grown wild they do posses a different energy as opposed to things cultivated especially in rows, and you are what you eat. Wild foods might make a person free at heart, while cultivated foods might make one more complacent, who knows, but I'd would behoove us to look into this more, I actually think our future depends on it, depends on knowing where we really came from so we can understand where we're going. I wonder every night "what" was it that forced the evolutionary jump so fast with humans, and "are" we really indigenous to this planet? These questions ring clearly within my mind. Humans were given something that allowed them to upset the balance that everything else has to respect. What was it? Because we can clearly see that there is a serious difference between us and every other life form on this planet.

[piggy]

...
Humans were given something that allowed them to upset the balance that everything else has to respect. What was it? Because we can clearly see that there is a serious difference between us and every other life form on this planet.

i was thinking along the same lines as i was writing my post. but, hey, i prefer not to go there...let's not get too philosophical i can't stand philosophical debates.
not that that makes the subject any less interesting, mind you

[Korn]

Point taken, I think the study did narrow it down though

Actually, I don't think there was a study...

I think you're right in noting that B-12 probably comes from plant sources more than insects or bacteria.

All B12 - both the B12 in animal products and B12 in water, plants soil - and guts - starts with cobalt - and micro-organisms/bacteria...

Nature always wins by default to me. If you go against nature you go against yourself. Humans have been so denatured that we sometimes have to take other steps to combat what has happened.

I totally agree. But 'nature' doesn't mean that we should just sit and watch nature, we are a part of nature and we can acknowledge that our actions can be pro-natural or anti-natural. When a baby is born, it comes with a umbilical cord - we're not just watching that cord, we are a part of nature and see that doing 'doing something' is needed. We can cultivate nature without destroying it. Other forms of 'cultivating nature' means disturbing it's own development, and means against nature instead of with it...

Being naked is great, but even in warm countries it can be cold during the night, especially in some seasons. Birds are making nests, and we can make houses or cloths too, without damaging nature. Cultivating certain food types rich in certain nutrients could be part of that. It just seems very unlikely that we would have needed to do that in order to get all the B12 we needed, if we would have been eating fresh, organic food not exposed to chlorinated water and not would have exposed ourselves to so many B12-killers...

in my opinion:

humans aren't MEANT to cultivate nature, but because of the way evolution has taken, it just so happens they do. some of the "unnatural" things we do aren't neccessary (most, i'd think)

But do you agree that there are two different ways of cultivating it? If you are in India, not very far from Equator, in January, it's really cold in the morning an in the night. And it can rain for weeks. Against, birds build their nests... why shouldn't humans build a house? When we open a coconut or peel a banana, we already interact with nature, but in a non-damaging way...

[Koolvedge]

Actually, I don't think there was a study...

There was, it was either, "The Raw food diet", or something published by Gary Null, no reason for me to make that up, but I did read it a long time ago.

All B12 - both the B12 in animal products and B12 in water, plants soil - and guts - starts with cobalt - and micro-organisms/bacteria...

Really, is this a scientific analasys? or studies, ect., sounds interesting.

I totally agree. But 'nature' doesn't mean that we should just sit and watch nature, we are a part of nature and we can acknowledge that our actions can be pro-natural or anti-natural. When a baby is born, it comes with a umbilical cord - we're not just watching that cord, we are a part of nature and see that doing 'doing something' is needed. We can cultivate nature without destroying it. Other forms of 'cultivating nature' means disturbing it's own development, and means against nature instead of with it...

Now I do believe we may have to cultivate only because I believe humans have been altered from the normal evolutionary process, either sped up or something, but I don't think it's the way that Darwin or most current evolutionist view it. Many cultures do live with {in cooperation} nature, and you're right, we can live with the land, leaving as little of a mark as possible. A biodegradable coexistence with nature that lets us create clothing and shelter that goes right back into the Earth, this I really agree with. Tribal living does show this, but something intervened, and it seems to have started with the manipulation of fire and metal. I don't see how people evolve in a way to understand how to smelt Iron from rock, or in any case how to grind grain mix it with water and then cook it. That denaturizing process was something {to me} that was introduced instead of evolved. Just my opinion

Being naked is great, but even in warm countries it can be cold during the night, especially in some seasons. Birds are making nests, and we can make houses or cloths too, without damaging nature. Cultivating certain food types rich in certain nutrients could be part of that. It just seems very unlikely that we would have needed to do that in order to get all the B12 we needed, if we would have been eating fresh, organic food not exposed to chlorinated water and not would have exposed ourselves to so many B12-killers...

We have altered things on the planet so much that I don't think that there's any turning back. B-12 killers are here an we're going to have to deal with them, so the cultivating process is here for now. I can see where humans might reach a pinnacle of technology in which everything will crumble, and not religously saying, but the meek might just inherit the Earth, going back to that wild uncultivating status where we live in balance with nature, not above it, or thinking we're above it. If we had lived in cooperation with it before and not poisoned other cultures with whatever technology was given to us then this unnatural rise may not have happened, but it did, therefore there's no going back, the technologist won't allow it.

But do you agree that there are two different ways of cultivating it? If you are in India, not very far from Equator, in January, it's really cold in the morning an in the night. And it can rain for weeks. Against, birds build their nests... why shouldn't humans build a house? When we open a coconut or peel a banana, we already interact with nature, but in a non-damaging way...

Intertacting without damaging is the key, I could imagine the rain, there would have to be cultivation of shelter, no question about it, and cold nights and mornings would require some sort of clothing. Clothing is the one thing I don't see any other animal on earth using, shelter yes, but not clothing. This brings up serious questions about our naturalness altogether. I'm not saying that we shouldn't cultivate, and I'm still not sure about totally being on the biodegradable wagon, becasue this allows the techs to gain rise and impose their will on the non-techs, which we see has happened in all of the invasions of tribal peoples until we've reached this state of madness {factory farming, deadly chemical production, mass weaponry, ect.} Good points you brought up.

[Koolvedge]

People who believe that there is no B12 whatsoever except in animal products like to thing that if vegans actually consume B12, it comes from insect droppings or dirt/uncleanliness...

I think that calling dirt unclean is just a judgement. The Raw-Foodist make some really good points in saying that some dirt contains many essential things that the body uses {not that I advocate eating it}, but when I spoke with David Wolfe at lectures then when I met him again in on 14th st. just walking, we had some really good conversations on the subject {and he did talk about eating it?}

Well, I have said that in the past too, but I can't say the same about ie. clothes. Unlike many other species, humans obviously are meant to 'cultivate nature', this COULD be that case for B12 as well: that in order to get all the nutrients we need, we need to cultivate them, ie. by cultivating B12 from bacteria (the way B12 in supplements are created).

Which brings me to believe that we {humans} are not so natural after all.

So in a way, there's no need to insist that nature provides us with all we need, and that we don't need to cultivate anything. After all, we don't walk around or sleep naked all life, in all seasons, without roofs protecting us from rain or walls protecting us from the wind. Having said that, it definitely looks to me like nature 'by default' is providing enough B12, it's just that most of us don't live in a natural 'default' environment...

Even if we did {live in a natural default} I think that when we look at the structure of our bodies, our alteration would still require us to wear some clothing {early morning and evening} or we would have to possibly stay within the shelters that we build for those uncomfortable periods, and there's the question of lattitude, which would definately require some clothing and even a migratory type of lifestyle, which some natives had.

[piggy]

But do you agree that there are two different ways of cultivating it?

sure. as i see it, the difference is that the one way evolves from the other. once humans' ancestors did something that involved changing the original "natural" state of things, that thing led to the next and so on. which is basically what kool pointed out in one of his replies. for example, we start working food with our hands ( for what reason heaven only knows). next thing u know, the species is not developing baboon's teeth anymore. ok, that i just got from ther top of my head, this example may be total and utter crap, but you get the point.

If you are in India, not very far from Equator, in January, it's really cold in the morning an in the night. And it can rain for weeks. Against, birds build their nests... why shouldn't humans build a house?

which is why i pointed out that (if i'm not mistaken) our origins are to be found in the african equatorial region which (at least now) is rainforest, and i doubt very cold.
as i said above, if one of our ancestors happend to be in india, well, he has to build a shelter coz it's cold. but that is necessary only because he moved in the 1st place.
of course the reasons as to why we first stepped out of the line (migration, whatever..) is a different question altogether

[Haniska]

B-12 breakthrough!

Nature rules!
Stolen from the veggieboards:

http://www.notmilk.com/vitaminb12.html

Vitamin B-12, Sex & Internal Secretions


Warning to my readers:

Today's column contains explicit sexual themes. If you embarrass easily, or if your religious, moral, or ethical beliefs prevent you from reading material of a sexual nature, please, read no more. In today's commentary, I discuss the science of sex in as dignified and delightful a manner as I am able, sometimes using a bit of humor, but continuously recognizing that such concepts may be offensive to some people, so please, if you find such discussion inappropriate, stop reading immediately. If you are easily offended by material of a sexual nature, please exercise the use of your delete button now.

Without embarrassment, this is a subject that needs to be discussed. I am past the point of being disgusted by know-it-all vegetarian and vegan nutritionists and dieticians who believe that one must take artificial supplements derived from cow intestines, containing Vitamin B-12 in order to maintain good health. The fact that vegans have B-12 in their bloodstreams is evidence enough that we're somehow obtaining it. Low dose, high dose, it really doesn't matter. Fact is that we need just a few micrograms of B-12, and a five-year supply is stored in the average human liver. That fact alone negates the scare tactics of those who criticize
the pure vegan diet, or dispense supplements as a part of their self-sustaining practices.

Vegan blood contains some B-12. In that, there is no debate. Vegan semen and vaginal secretions contain many times more Vitamin B-12 than does human blood.

The solution? Make love. Enjoy oral sex. The ingestion of sexual body secretions from your lover will insure good health for you.

\.

I was wondering that myself, especially since fiance is an omni.
(Yes I realize that meat eaters have low B-12 too, this is how I convinced myself to supplement even though "there's nothing missing from the vegan diet.")
I'm wondering how many time can you and your lover recycle your B-12 amongst each other before running out? Or is B-12 made inside the sex organs through some bacterial process? I'm afraid that something might be missing here

[indianvegan]

I know a very strong and working Vegan of 90 in my city..who treats himself naturally..he does not know the word Vegan..but i know him closely he is naturopath, he does not use dairy product and no other animal product for use/wear. He is not aware about B-12 thing. He does not take any supplements, he eats Raw mainly. He is still working actively in his hospital.


Manish Jain