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Thread: PETA killing animals?

  1. #51
    pat sommer's Avatar
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Well, I suppose in cases like the hurricane rescue efforts, animals are "brought" to Peta. Otherwise they are located in Virginia, no "local chapters. But hey, someone has to take the rap for killing animals: it might as well be them. Saves the guilt from being passed to my dear friends who just went to pick their new purebred puppy; they decided they want a white one.
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  2. #52
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Quote pat sommer
    Saves the guilt from being passed to my dear friends who just went to pick their new purebred puppy; they decided they want a white one.

  3. #53
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Quote pat sommer
    Well, I suppose in cases like the hurricane rescue efforts, animals are "brought" to Peta. Otherwise they are located in Virginia, no "local chapters. But hey, someone has to take the rap for killing animals: it might as well be them. Saves the guilt from being passed to my dear friends who just went to pick their new purebred puppy; they decided they want a white one.
    Sorry to see this discussion degenerate. The cases mentoned precede the hurricane. More importantly, your reply misses the point that PETA has a kill policy, promotes killing as a policy and campaigns against the no-kill shelter ethos, while exagerrating the current scale of the problem to justify their actions and statements subsequent to criticism of them. I don't see anything very ethical in that. Hopefully PETA will find the courage to re-examine their approach.

    Cheers

    Mike

    PS:

    Virginia: "Newkirk did not respond to ANIMAL PEOPLE questions on that occasion, but confirmed to Michael Barakat of Associated Press in July 2000 that her staff killed 1,325 of the 2,103 dogs and cats they received in 1999––63%, above the regional animal control norm of 58%.

    Then, according to Virginia state records, PETA in 2003 killed 1,911 of 2,225 animals received: 86%.


    Although PETA is not a shelter organization, it killed more animals each year than 75% of the animal control shelters in Virginia.

    But don't forget North Carolina, that's where the two were prosecuted and suspended for illegally dumping the dead bodies of euthanised animals.

    With regard to the latter also note:

    "“We do not advocate ‘right to life’ for animals,” Newkirk handwrote on a post card to neuter/return and no-kill sheltering proponent Nathan Winograd, who then directed the Law & Advocacy Department for the San Francisco SPCA and now does shelter consulting from San Diego.

    A former criminal prosecutor, Winograd offered his services pro bono to the North Carolina prosecution."




    An interesting statement on what can be achieved, on the other hand:


    "I had just posted a comment about an encounter that our SPCA had with PETA last year under the PETA Kills Animals story. Then I read the other comments that were posted. I must say, I am saddened but not surprised by the number of comments that were written in support of PETA and criticizing Best Friends. It is somewhat incomprehensible that people who love animals and work for them support a group that advocates their slaughter and denounce a group that advocates other ways to deal with population problems. Our SPCA struggles with the problems of overpopulation every day, but we also realize that all the years of killing have not solved the problem. We have a humane answer available to us - spaying and neutering every creature we can get our hands on. When we started our spay/neuetr program at the shelter - and especially when we started our TNR program - there were critics who accused us of everything from bankrupting the shelter to providing substandard care for the animals in surgery. One year later, money is pouring in, we've had no surgical problems beyond what you would find in any vet practice, and the amount of good will this program has produced cannot be measured. It is hard work and we all must pitch in. I myself drive around on spay days picking up strays in traps. We won't see immediate results as far as population is concerned, but we will see it eventually. Without groups like Best Friends and Alley Cat Allies educating groups like us and giving us hope, we'd be back to business as usual. When I came on the Board 4 years ago, we were routinely executing 1500 cats every year in our shelter. Last year we euthanized 350 - all for reasons of health, none for space or convenience. If we can do it, everyone can. All that is holding people back is their negativity. I am so sorry to see that surface in so many comments. the animals deserve better. Diane Davison "






  4. #54
    pat sommer's Avatar
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Exaggerating? exaggerating the problem! I support 110% their policy. If they did otherwise I would withdraw my support. I agree to respectfully disagree with other positions. Just putting my name out there so as not to let others shoulder the burden alone.
    the only animal ingredient in my food is cat hair

  5. #55
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Quote pat sommer
    Exaggerating? exaggerating the problem!
    Yes. They're using statistics that are out of date to justify their "euthanasia" policy. While more and more shelters are successfully moving over to no-kill in the USA, PETA are propagandising against it.

    Cheers

    Mike

  6. #56

    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    The numbers of animals being handed in to PETA is huge though. To be honest, although I personally feel that deliberate death of any animal shouldn't happen, I think we should understand the immense logistical problems involved in catering to millions of homeless and suffering. The fact is that animals are brought to PETA shelters daily, and there is very limited space in those shelters.

    I come from Singapore, and the policy here is not only to spay and neuter, but the SPCA also euthanises the sick and unsocial animals when they are unable to hold any more animals. They try to have people adopt them, but chances are that people will always prefer the pet-shop animals to the ones in shelters.

    I don't blame PETA for euthanising animals (though I must say I find it disagreeable) but I won't say they aren't trying hard enough as well. When was the last time I adopted a homeless animal? I think they know there's no justification for it, but it's just something that has to be done thanks to the owners who don't spay/neuter and let their pets loose.
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  7. #57
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Hi Kerio,

    I think you make good points except for when you write

    Quote Kerio
    I think they know there's no justification for it, but it's just something that has to be done thanks to the owners who don't spay/neuter and let their pets loose.
    The problem is that PETA does try and justify it. Even worse it actively campaigns against the ethic and work of successful no-kill shelters. By killing almost 90% of the animals it is given. PETA is quite clearly following a systematic policy and devoting little in the way of its human or financial resources to rehoming the poor animals. When one considers the very real sacrifices that the people involved in no-kill shelters devote to avoiding killing animals, that seems to me inexcusable in an organisation who's very name boasts an ethical not a utilitarian approach.

    Cheers

    Mike

  8. #58
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    I liken the situation to people shouting for help while bailing floodwaters. The reply is "we are upstream trying to reduce the flow"
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  9. #59

    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Hi Michael,

    I agree with that! Ethical treatment shouldn't be putting them to death. But then again, looking at percentages probably isn't very effective. Maybe someone should take a look at the Numbers. Can their shelters hold the 90% of the animals they euthanised? If they could, what are the reasons for euthanising these poor animals?

    Did they really not put in their backbone into re-homing these creatures, or did no one want these castaways? What was the time between receiving and euthanising?

    If they're terminally sick, or disfigured and suffering beyond imagination - painful as it is, I'd say it's justified. If I was terminally sick and in terrible pain, I'd want the same treatment for myself. If I was healthy, as a human I'd be able to walk out and make conscious decisions to sustain my life and improve my quality of life. Domesticated animals can't do that, unfortunately. They've learnt to rely on humans so heavily that now, it'd be more cruel to throw them out.

    Dogs and Cats have now been bred into "Human Playthings". This very connotation is already unnatural by itself. So euthanising them - ethical or not - I guess no one except PETA can answer for itself, and the only way they can do that is to continue to educate the public to stop doing these unnatural things. (Like eating meat, for instance. )
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  10. #60
    Michael Benis's Avatar
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Hi Kerio,

    I'd certainly agree with the educating. But I also think it's bad education to disregard animal rights, whatever the history of dog and cat breeding, and to send out the message that it's acceptable to destroy animal lives because of the difficulties that PETA refers to. There are other organisations that show real dedication to the animals people entrust to them.

    Though there are no statistics available there is certainly evidence that animals PETA has destroyed were healthy and adoptable. There are likewise statements by people who brought animals to PETA precisely because they trusted it cared about animal rights and would do everything it could to look after them. Needless to say they were extremely disillusioned.

    Maybe PETA would do better to work with no-kill shelters than polemicise against them to try and excuse their own mistakes....

    Cheers

    Mike

  11. #61

    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Hi Michael,

    Yeah, it'd be great if they did that. I think we can all say that this apparent betrayal of trust from PETA was a heavy blow for all of us. They haven't come up with a response that'd appease everyone, but I don't think they can please everyone.

    There are some animal "No-kill" Shelters that treat animals in inhumane ways as well - I think exposing their mistreatment would be a severe blow for people as well, but to compare 'living a terrible life' with 'dying peacefully', I, as a person, would choose 2. No-kill shelters aren't infallible, and I think the best way to help this sad state of affairs would be to personally set up shelters and care for the animals ourselves. Unfortunately, that's not within our means, so that means we just have to wait and hope things will get better. After all, what can we really do?

    We can't fight Peta because it's the only rights group that can effectively fight the meat, dairy and egg industry. Even as we blame Peta now for their assumed cruelty, they're out there tending to the sick and injured animals and fighting for humane treatment for the animals. If Peta did send the animals out, they'd most probably be caught and sent for experimentation, or sent to the pound and killed inhumanely. What could they do? I don't know. I don't think I want to fight Peta on their decisions, but that's probably just me.
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  12. #62
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Any-one who has joined in this thread half way through might like to go back to page 2 and read Eve's reply with the PETA 'explanation'. As one who was involved at trustee level with a no-kill animal sanctuary I can tell you they are not always what they appear. I got involved quite innocently and when I found out all the awful things which went on - too much to write here, but I could feel it all coming back as I read that PETA reply in Eve's post, I and a few committed others set about making changes. It was very hard work but we eventually got a very reputable national animal charity to take the whole thing over. I am not really sure where I stand on this. Yes, there are no doubt animal charities around who will give long stay or unhomeable animals a life worth living, but where that is not possible I really don't see an answer. It is the breeders who must be vilified and stopped.

  13. #63
    Michael Benis's Avatar
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Hi again, Kerio,

    I'm sure there may be "no-kill" shelters that are either fallible or hypocritical, but I wouldn't go so far as to say they are anything like the majority or that they fail/kill over 80% of the animals sheltered with them, as PETA do. At the same time there are many shelters that devote immense time to building up networks of dedicated rehabilitators and adopters of "problem" animals, including people who provide temporary homes while permanent homes can be found. As far as I am aware PETA does not consider it necessary or "ethical" to use its funds or time to do the same thing.

    Consequently, I'm not at all convinced that the PETA-killed animals may not have lived out their days in a happy, caring environment had they been sheltered elsewhere. I certainly believe PETA could have treated them more ethically and achieved that happy outcome if it had a mind to. Instead it plays a blame game and erodes the credibility of other, more compassionate animal rights organisations and activists.

    Similarly, I'm not at all convinced that:

    Quote Kerio
    We can't fight Peta because it's the only rights group that can effectively fight the meat, dairy and egg industry.
    There are plenty of organisations that do that as effectively or more effectively than PETA, including VIVA! in the UK, Poland and elsewhere.

    Let me make it clear that I am not anti-PETA, but I find their arguments about domestic animals, which effectively treat them in the same way that mainstream animal control organisations would treat animals that are classified as "pests", combined with their campaign against and defamation of no-kill shelters, profoundly unethical, anti-animal rights and counter-productive.

    Cheers

    Mike

  14. #64
    Pilaf
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    I'd like to pipe in a bit here and say that I've actually run across some feral cats and dogs before, and I can tell you that Peta's descriptions aren't that far off. These animals are truely dangerous in some cases, especially the diseased ones. And they very rarely stand a chance to become familiar with humans because of their severely devolved sense of attachment to human beings. In many cases they're even wilder than wolves, except with the unfortunate tendency to actually wander into towns and maul young children, etc. (It's happened in my hometown before. A pack of feral dogs basically devolved into wild animals who ran about at night murdering people's cats, livestock etc. Eventually a child was mauled. All of them were destroyed, and I think the community is better for it) I can honestly say that, having seen them first hand, I doubt very much that it would have been humane or possible to keep them alive in a no kill shelter and ever expect them to become used to humans again. They were simply too far gone and desocialized.

    edit: I'd like to note my "home town" is actually a rural community surrounded by forests. So this type of thing isn't really common in more human populated areas, but it can happen in places such as this.

  15. #65
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Hi Pilaf,

    There's no doubt feral dogs and cats can be very difficult and in some cases may need to be put down, but I'm pretty sure that such dogs don't account for over 80% of those PETA receive.

    Cheers

    Michael

  16. #66

    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Hi Michael,

    I think 80% may be a play on figures by the newscasters and the anti-peta industries. Put it this way : If the owners of the cats and dogs really cared for their pets, why would they give them to peta?

    An animal organisation in Singapore put down 6000 odd strays since being set up, because people here don't spay and neuter, and frequently let their unsterilised cats out of the house. Same goes for stray dogs as well. That particular organisation would like to find ways to house these animals, but no one wants them.

    No-Kill Animal shelters are also questionable. A no-kill shelter turns away animals which are unadoptable or when their capacity. What happens to those animals they turn down? When asked, they cleverly avoided the question by saying "The key is to make sure this doesn't happen by educating people". Since it's still happening with strays breeding all over, I suppose they are hoping for tinkerbell to start sprinkling them with fairy dust and sending them off to fairyland.

    What would these no-kill shelters who criticise peta do if overloaded with animals? Do they bring these animals home like the peta employees? Somehow, I doubt it.

    And also, the shelters that peta exposes as inhumane are in fact, inhumane. Is it wrong to condemn these shelters that promise good care but do not do it? Would it be moral to not condemn these no-kill shelters just so they can avoid killing animals?

    Frankly, I just hope the no-kill shelters will live up to their image of being compassionate, animal-loving shelters instead of the nightmarish claustrophobic contraptions they've turned out to be. This is a huge issue, and I don't think it'll be resolved except with people knowing what to do and doing what's right, difficult as it may be.

    Sigh...I sure hope compassion will eventually shine through underneath all the greed and love of commerce.
    Vegan Powered (Like cows, elephants, and shaolin monks)

  17. #67
    Michael Benis's Avatar
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Hi Kerio,

    If you check the links above, you'll find the 80% is properly sourced, researched and credible. Also, please note that the dogs are not given by their owners. Certainly all the donors who have spoken publically were bringing PETA unclaimed, lost but healthy and friendly dogs. But even if that were the case, two wrongs don't make a right. The same comment applies to the animal organisation in Singapore to which you refer.

    Also, please note, that none of what I have written is against a spay and neuter policy, although there are many who consider that also raises animal rights issues and who suggest that other more humane policies might not be equally effective, particualry since the root of the problem lies not in strays, as you suggest, but in professional and amateur "breeders". My point here is that "Spay and neuter" and "no-kill" are in no way incompatible.

    As for no-kill shelters turning animals away, that is really just a convenient generalisation, I'm afraid. Some do, many don't. What's important is that more and more no-kill shelters are working very hard and effectively, rather than washing their hands of the problem and simply killing animals.

    Likewise, many no-kill shelters (and it's not so much they who are attacking PETA as PETA who has attacked them to justify its own position when under fire) ARE overloaded with animals. And of course their employees bring home animals, often several. That's not at all uncommon. These people really do care.

    Similarly, the situation is slowly improving (again the statistics - govt stats - are there in the articles I provided links to and which led to my assertion that PETA is exagerrating the current scale of the problem to justify itself in the face of criticism). That is not a result of PETA's killing, which is on too small a scale to be nationally significant.

    I can see you'd like to be able to justify PETA's behaviour - and I would also love the organisation not to have exposed itself and animals rights advocates in general to this criticism. But there is simply no justification for their behaviour that stands up to scrutiny. What they are doing is expedient but unnecessary and they can't be bothered to devote the resources to managing the situation ethically, when they are ideally placed to do so. Their actions in this respect have not helped the animal rights cause one iota, and nor has the fact that they don't have the ethical commitment or honesty to revise their position, preferring to attack people who are making real sacrifices to help each and every animal that comes into their care.

    Cheers

    Mike

  18. #68

    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Hi Michael,

    I see your point now. But to be honest, information is now so subject to propoganda that I don't really know what to believe in anymore.

    I could easily say I believe in Peta, or I could say I trust the no-kill shelters are really doing what they can - better than Peta; but the possibility is that I'd have been exposed to some kind of propoganda or sublimal message that has made me think this way.

    In the end, I suppose all we can do is hope things will eventually get better. As for my view on Peta - I think I still believe Peta will continue to help promote veganism/vegetarianism, and help the animals in some way, and that's sufficient for me.
    Vegan Powered (Like cows, elephants, and shaolin monks)

  19. #69
    Michael Benis's Avatar
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Hi Kerio,

    there are other organisations with a more coherent/ethical stance in the US, such as Friends of Animals (www.friendsofanimals.org) who also have a very effective spay/neuter programme. You may find their statement interesting in the light of our recent discussion:

    FoA Statement On Killing Healthy Pet Animals

    June 20, 2005 | view comments | add yours
    The idea that killing animals for institutional reasons would be called “euthanasia”? at all is deeply troubling. “Euthanasia,”? properly used, refers to a death in one’s best interest …The routine killing of sentient individuals simply to deal with their large numbers would not constitute euthanasia even if there were a painless method of implementing it. Killing is one of those things that the animal advocacy community formed to stop. Lee Hall, “Kill Them With Kindness,”? Friends of Animals ActionLine (Winter 2002-03).
    In Ahoskie, North Carolina, two employees of a high-profile animal protection organization currently face numerous counts of felony animal cruelty, and several misdemeanor counts of illegally disposing of dead animals. Police relate the charges to an alleged pattern of killing healthy dogs and puppies and tossing their bodies into a refuse bin.
    An Associated Press report quoted veterinarian Patrick Proctor of Ahoskie Animal Hospital as further stating that authorities found a female cat and her two “very adoptable” kittens among the dead animals, and that “these were just kittens we were trying to find homes for.”
    In the wake of this appalling series of reports, we at Friends of Animals would like to state that the Ahoskie killings described in the recent press reports are not euthanasia, and that they are a serious affront to animal rights.
    Animal advocates have no business in the killing of healthy sheltered animals. People who engage in such conduct — regardless of killing or disposal methods — convey the message that they and their supporters have accepted a reprehensible practice.
    And the issue is not a choice between killing or doing nothing.
    Alternatives to the cycle of breeding and killing do exist. For example, Friends of Animals has successfully co-ordinated a national project responsible for sterilizing over two million dogs and cats since 1957. This Spay and Neuter Project effectively intervenes in the tragic cycle of reproduction, and has spared tens of millions at the very least.
    In September of 2002, Friends of Animals’ president Priscilla Feral invited animal protection groups nationwide to join this project. If groups across the country were to accept Feral’s proposal and put resources into such a campaign, the amount of animal suffering would decrease beyond the animal advocacy community’s wildest dreams.
    Through a concerted effort to stop the breeding of pets, we stem the tide of animals who wind up in shelters in the first place. Only in that radical way — radical meaning at its root — can the problem be resolved.
    Excellent examples are also set by shelters and rehabilitators with no-kill policies. No one in the animal advocacy community should be undermining these shelters. By supporting no-kill zones, we press municipalities to face facts: There’s no room in town for breeders.
    Moreover, local and state officials will place a high priority on no-kill when their constituents demand it.
    Animal advocates must delve deeper than the level of symptoms, and unearth the root causes of suffering. Victory will not come overnight, but with wide support and a serious understanding of our role, we can interrupt the cycle of breeding and killing domestic animals — a cycle which, after all, we human beings put into motion.
    Tell others about low-cost neutering: phone the Friends of Animals certificate hotline at 1-800-321-PETS. If your group can support local and national efforts to prevent breeding and killing of domestic animals, write to contact@friendsofanimals.org and join our shelter action list.


    Cheers

    Mike

  20. #70

    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    That's a good post, but Peta does provide free sterilising as well. The other thing is : How far can we trust these animal shelters? Centuries ago people believed the world was flat and no one believed otherwise. A few days before the news about Peta killing animals was disclosed we absolutely trusted Peta. Now the animal shelters are saying they deserve absolute trust as well - who, in fact, can we actually give our trust?

    In the end, information reinforces misinformation - no one can truly persuade me that Peta is untrustworthy and a scoundrel of a society any more than they can persuade me that the no-kill animal shelters are trustworthy. The alternatives may be there, but I don't trust them as well, heh heh heh.

    Sad, really. However, my belly-aching here changes nothing - if I was really a mover, I'd set up my own animal shelter - but I haven't. So I won't pass judgement on any of these people, and will refrain from doing so unless I happen to be a key figure who is actually in the industry and knows it's inner workings and the difficulties they face.

    Cheers, and for all ye Chinese, Happy Lunar New Year!

    K
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  21. #71
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Hi Kerio,

    Happy New Year to you, too.

    I don't really see this as an either/or issue. Whether all shelters are trustworthy or not (and like you I have no doubt some are better than others etc.), that doesn't affect what PETA's policy on so-called euthanasia is and just becuase we may agree with other things PETA does, that doesn't mean we shouldn't criticise it for something like this. Hopefully, they''ll listen and rethink. The policy has certainly lost them a lot of support.

    Cheers

    Mike

  22. #72

    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Absolutely. It'd suffice to say that with all the things Peta has done to help animals, we're all aghast and wondering what the hell they were thinking when they implemented this policy. It seems highly contradictory and illogical, ethically speaking.
    Vegan Powered (Like cows, elephants, and shaolin monks)

  23. #73
    GreenMonkey
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    I think Peta should have never started killing animals. They could have built better shelters, they could have brought media attention to the problem. But they should have never gotten in the business of killing.

    They are suppose to protect animals not kill the ones no one wants.

  24. #74
    geysir111
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    Thumbs down Re: PETA killing animals?

    Hi,

    I would like to say that it's not ethically speaking completely against Peta ethic. Peta is aiming to stop the killing, murdering and animal exploitation for human purposes. Euthanasiating animals is made "to not let them suffer", so it's "for the animals" that they are doing that supposingly.

    Do they really suffer that much in their animal shelters to be euthanasiated? I would more likely think that it's because they're too numerous and cost too much to be accomodated that they are killed. it's like mice traps who kills the mice "without suffering", a AR organisation support this, I don't remember which one. But if it would be acceptable to kill animals who suffer too much without their consent (because they can't consent, the aim to survive is the first aim of all mammals and most animals), then would it be acceptable in the same way to kill humans who suffer too much? like elderly people very ill who doesn't ant to die? I think that as a personn, you shouldn't have 2 moral codes, one cold-blooded moral code, practical and ethicless and the other compassionate and loving moral code. So, because most AR activist wouldn't accept to kill humans who are in a deep pain, they shouldn't accept to kill animals who are in a supposed deep pain.

    For the case of human euthanasia, I think it's very acceptable if the human want it strongly and if the human is very ill, suffering, hopeless and incurable. But animals never want to die by fact, they'll do all they can for their survival, it's a scientific fact (shown by ethology, zoology,etc).

    In the other hand, euthanasiating animals is giving the death to a sensitive beeing, and I don't think that human have any right to kill another sensitive beeing without its approval. (So in a scientific point of view, it means all vertebrates and a few invertebrates including cephalopodas. Other higher invertebrates are not proofed to suffer
    but it might be possible due to their nervous system. Lower invertebrates like Cnadarians and Sponges (Poriferas) and non-animal form of lifes are likely not suffering, just biomechanicly responding to stimuli).

    But Peta has done so much to defend animals and animals rights so we shouldn't just boycott Peta or disliking it for this reason. It's the biggest AR organisation in the world after all, so if you aren't happy with that, it might be best to try to change this policy from inside. I think most european workers of Peta disagree with that, I don't know how is it like in the US. What does Peta employees think about that? And if most of them agree, I thought it might be a relation with the US education system but well it's probably not the case... I mean they're AR activists so they should be aware of what they are doing.

    I will always be gratefull to Peta, even if I disagree with this policy...

    All the best to you,

    Christophe

  25. #75

    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    I believe so too.

    Cheers y'all,

    K
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  26. #76

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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    I heard something about that on the news, only in bits and pieces though. Was this just recently, like a week or two ago?
    ▼Laurin▼

  27. #77
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    A healthy animal should never be exterminated. If PETA authorised it then they're hypocrites.
    "It's a matter of taking the side of the weak against the strong, something the best people have always done."

  28. #78

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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Well put it this way, if people started rounding up the homeless and killing them how would you feel about that?

    Yes, feral cats and dogs do have a reduced life expectancy. So do humans on the street but If you asked one if they would rather be dead I'm sure most would say 'No'.

    I never liked PETA's attitude to killing healthy but unwanted pets or feral animals. I don't even believe everything they say now. Ever since I read about their campaign to keep cats in doors and it said 'however far you live from a road, the cat will always find it'. What nonsence. I could imagine a cat with a road map trying to track down the nearest road.

    I won't say they don't provide lots of info about animal cruelty but if they can lie about their need to kill animals they can lie about other things too and it just wrecks all their credability.

  29. #79
    Aylish's Avatar
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Side note about cats and roads. You rarely see a dead cat on the side of the road. Sometimes, but rarely in comparison to all the skunks and racoons. I swear my neighbour's cat looks both ways before he crosses!

    I'm sure if cats and dogs had a choice they would rather take their chances on the road. I realize that something has to be done, at least in some people's eyes. But I don't think PETA should be the ones to do it. If anything it hurts their credibility, as we see here.

  30. #80

    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Quote Geoff
    I wonder what you would do with the 10,000 unwanted cats that RSPCA Qld. euthanases each year.
    Exactly. The standard procedure for killing the thousands of unwanted "pets" every single day, using gas after shoving a gang of animals in a box is far more cruel. Anyone who has seen Earthlings will testament to this.

    All PETA are doing is stepping in to offer a more calm loving end to their lives.

    Of course it's inconcievable to go around killing homeless humans but it's a sanitised human controlled world which is made for humans. Human rights protect against any limiting of human numbers.

    The ability to suffer and be unwanted is much greater in other species who can't find anywhere to exist.

  31. #81
    Kevster
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Personally, i might expect a group like the RSPCA to engage in the killing of unwanted cats and dogs, but i don't think it is something Peta should be doing, they should be focussing wholly on the root cause of the problem.
    But then it's hard to tell what Peta really are? Sometimes i like what they do and sometimes i don't. They certainly seem to lack a consistent approach excepting of course the maximum publicity one.

    'Fishing Lines: This Robocarp ruse isn't much cop
    By Keith Elliott
    Published: 16 April 2006

    It's been a bad week for the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (Peta). The vegan animal rights group saw four of their staunch supporters facing lengthy jail sentences for conspiring to blackmail the owners of a guinea- pig farm. And their latest anti-angling campaign, scheduled for the Easter weekend and codenamed Robocarp, has attracted more laughs than outrage.

    For those who don't know, Peta are nothing like as altruistic as their title suggests. The US-based group's goal, according to their president, Ingrid Newkirk, is "total animal liberation": no meat, milk, wool, leather and pets (even guide dogs). But they are not as caring as they like to make out. Peta's own figures filed with the State of Virginia show that they killed more than 10,000 animals between 1998 and 2003. They have complained that actually taking care of animals costs more than killing them. Hmm. [...]'

    http://sport.independent.co.uk/gener...icle357954.ece

  32. #82

    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    So The Independent's no better than the Guardian then. All papers must play to the status quo rather than challenge it (Give or take centre left/right swaying) I suppose.

    I suppose the RSPCA don't have enough finance to offer the thousands of condemned animals injected euthanasia. Besides this is a US story, bottomline is they offer a more "Humane" death to animals that will die anyway.

  33. #83
    Michael Benis's Avatar
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Quote The_Lincoln_Imp
    bottomline is they offer a more "Humane" death to animals that will die anyway.
    The bottom line is people brought them animals believing PETA would make an effort to rehome them and they were instead just killed.

    PETA should have said they simply operate a kill no-shelter policy, which they didn't.

    Had the animals been given to a hard-working no-kill shelter they would not have "died anyway". Other people work damn hard so that animals don't have to die, not just through rehoming but also through sanctuaries.

    PETA are not dedicated to that work. Indeed, they have ridiculed people who are in defence of their own hypocritical actions.

    PETA have not fought for this. They prefer to thrust the violence in other people's faces, using the dead animals for polemical purposes rather than putting energy into saving them.

    Mike

  34. #84
    Kevster
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Quote The_Lincoln_Imp
    So The Independent's no better than the Guardian then.
    Maybe, but i reckon the comment seems fair. I don't think you can free animals by being complicit in killing them, because it seems marginally better than the other ways of killing. This is my opinion, but if you want the liberation of animals then you don't need to dilute your position.

    I don't look after any animals at present, and in part this is a bit cr*p, because plenty of animals die because people won't agree to take a degree of responsibility.

    Here's an interesting article:

    'Must Love Dogs … to Death

    By Jeff Perz

    The Abolitionist Online asked Jeff Perz to comment on PeTA’s killing policy. This is his response. [...]'

    http://www.abolitionist-online.com/a...eff.perz.shtml

  35. #85
    Geoff
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Wikipedia has quite a comprehensive entry on Peta and the 'killing animals' issue doesn't seem as black and white as some have portrayed it. Having been on the end of media misreporting myself, I think that its really a case of 'you had to be there.'

  36. #86
    Kiran's Avatar
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    I strongly support Geoff's viewpoints. Well put, Geoff.
    Life is like a boomerang: What goes around comes around - "Karma"rocks!

  37. #87

    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Quote Geoff
    I repeat - what would you and Green Envy do with the 10,000 unwanted cats that RSPCA Qld. euthanases each year?
    IE, if you were put in charge of RSPCA Queensland, what would you do with just under 200 cats brought to the shelters every week of the year?
    It's very easy to sit at a computer and criticise others but a very different matter when you're confronted with the situation in reality.
    I was in the lunch room at the RSPCA HQ in Brisbane a few years back, on a killing day, when one of the vets came in and said: " I'm sick of all this killing" The room fell silent for quite a while. That's the reality.
    You're not asking me but I'll tell you what I would do.
    I would STOP taking new admissions in rather than DESTROY the guests I was already caring for. Plenty of cats would rather take their chances on the streets than be KILLED because there's no room. I know a lady who left the RSPCA because she was routinely asked to KILL patients to make room for new ones. The charity I work for does not KILL those who it cannot home - it keeps on trying until it can home them - only then it takes in newcomers. We never kill a healthy animal. I don't and will not give my money to charities that operate a KILL who you cannot home policy.

  38. #88

    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Here's a different approach -
    http://www.alleycat.org/visitor.html

  39. #89

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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    I found the articles archaeopteryx and Kevster linked to very ineresting and I agree with both of them. Kevster's article in particular expresess what I feel about this whole issue apart from spraying and neutering. (the only reason I'm not sprayed is my doctor wouldn't agree to it).

    I have just taken in 4 rescue rats from a no kill centre. They came with chest infections (which have cleared up). Sky and Poppy seeds are delightful companions. The other 2 have their problems. In a kill shelter all 4 of them would have been killed. Even Sky and Poppy's loveable nature wouldn't have saved them.

    I think it's over syplifyig the issue to say that killing is the best option. Something very few people would advocate for humans and those who would tend to be of a very facist perswasion and not humanitarian in the least.

    Maybe being disabled also makes me feel strongly on this issue. As well as Jews the Nazi's killed a lot of disabled people only they did it to be 'kind'. Well I must say, I'd rather be alive and disabled, then dead. So I wouldn't turn a stray in if I thought it was likely to get killed.

  40. #90

    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Ridiculous?

    Is the RSPCA of Queenslands method working? Obviously not!
    Where else are the 10,000 extra feral cats coming from?
    They need to work at the root cause of this problem. It wouldn't be easy and it would have to be a long term plan but in the long run it would provide a more humane and effective method.
    Trap, neuter, return.

    Do the public know they are handing their unwanted cats in to be killed?
    Do you think the public would hand so many cats in if they were aware of this policy? Are effective neutering campaigns in place in poor areas?

    As long as people are prepared to take care of problems like the feral and unwanted cat population by slaughtering them (whatever their methods) then nothing will change. Slaughtering the healthy and unwanted is not a solution - it's just another problem. As long as the RSPCA keeps an open door policy and keeps killing unwanted animals then society will NEVER have to deal with this problem.
    Try reading the information from the link I posted. This is not just my opinion. This opinion is shared by many humane organisations.
    http://www.alleycat.org/visitor.html

    "Myth: Feral cats lead short, miserable lives so it’s best to trap and euthanize them. Reality: Studies show that feral cats have about the same lifespan as pet cats. And they contract diseases at about the same rate. It is simply not humane or prudent to kill a healthy feral cat, and this practice does not reduce their populations over the long-term because other cats move in and start breeding."

    "Myth: Feral cats are predators that deplete wildlife. Reality: Studies show that the overwhelming cause of wildlife depletion is destruction of natural habitat due to man-made structures, chemical pollution, pesticides, and drought — not feral cats."

    "Don’t buy into the cruel myths about feral cats and kittens. Discover the compassionate solution that really works..."

    Trap, neuter, return.

    "Cat populations are gradually reduced. Nuisance behaviors associated with breeding, such as the yowling of females or the spraying of toms, are virtually eliminated. Disease and malnutrition are greatly reduced. The cats live healthy, safe, and peaceful lives in their territories."

  41. #91
    Michael Benis's Avatar
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Excellent post there from the prehistoric bird!

  42. #92

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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    I also agree with archaeopteryx.

  43. #93

    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    It's sad and unsurprising that at the root of this problem is a lack of care on the part of the public.

    When feral cats are removed from the wild, there is evidence to suggest, that a vacuum is created that is simply filled by more craftier and fitter feral cats.

    There are also suggestions that cats are being used in Australia as a convenient scapegoat for human destruction of wildlife habitats.

    There's a lot more good information on the subject here -
    http://messybeast.com/eradicat.htm

    Some quotes:

    "In parts of Australia and America there is talk of exterminating stray/feral cats to protect wildlife species from an 'introduced predator', 'non-native animal' or 'an invasive species'. Though wholesale extermination appeals to those who oversimplify the problem and view cats as the agents of wildlife depopulation, extermination just isn't that simple and is ultimately counter-productive."

    "Those opposed to seeing tatty, scrawny strays (on either aesthetic or welfare grounds) are often surprised to find that neutered ferals are healthier and have less impact on wildlife due to the cessation of breeding.."

    "The cat is a convenient target for hatred since it is an obvious hunter. Factors such as overclearing and overstocking of land, clearing of land for development and the deliberate introduction of other alien species are rarely considered. Studies indicate that the cats prefer to hunt introduced "pest" species (pigeons, rabbits, mice etc) and in Tasmania the feral cat co-exists with the marsupial "Native Cat".

    "Eradication methods, even if implemented in the most humane manner possible, cannot solve the feral cat problem. They are frequently unpopular with the public and at best they are only temporary fix. Trap-neuter-return programmes may be time-consuming and seem like a drop in the ocean, but offer the best hope of a long-term solution to the cat population problem, giving healthy ferals the chance of a decent life and freedom from the otherwise endless cycle of breeding while those which cannot be re-released should at least be given a humane and painless escape from their predicament."

    "C.A.T.S. is currently the only organisation in Australia involved in long term studies of the "Sterilise and Return to Home" (Trap-Neuter-Return) method of controlling feral colonies. Trap-neuter-return is the only long-term effective method of controlling feral populations."

  44. #94
    Alvin Carrier
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    This is no judgment of PETA in general. But I read a site called "PETA kills animals" or something. It too accused PETA of being hasty in euthanizing animals. But the website went on and on and began to sound like some redneck propaganda to justify eating animals.

  45. #95

    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Quote Alvin Carrier
    This is no judgment of PETA in general. But I read a site called "PETA kills animals" or something. It too accused PETA of being hasty in euthanizing animals. But the website went on and on and began to sound like some redneck propaganda to justify eating animals.
    Yes that's a Consumer Freedom Group offshoot. They lobby for meat industries, cigarette companies and so on. Rightwing libertarian market driven rhetoric.

  46. #96
    veganblue's Avatar
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Quote archaeopteryx
    It's sad and unsurprising that at the root of this problem is a lack of care on the part of the public.

    When feral cats are removed from the wild, there is evidence to suggest, that a vacuum is created that is simply filled by more craftier and fitter feral cats.
    This would be an accurate assessment. Feral cats have large ranges and are decimating the native life. In the long term the population will decline once all the small bird populations have been wiped out; the marsupials, the skinks and frogs - even the insects.

    The delicate balance here is already falling - but it is not only the cats; remember that there are also a green snake plague in the Northern Territory along with the cane toads that eat anything that they can put in their mouths. There are camels, goats, pigs, buffalo, wild horses, foxes, wild dogs, rabbits, rats, and mice.

    Cats may have an affection rating that is very high and makes people horrified to hear that population control includes (humanely) ending their lives in an effort to save the lives of the animals that exist in the habitat natively.

    Who is going to trap / neuter and return the other species? How many cane toads can be re-homed? What are they going to be fed? Slaugherhouse products, just like the rehomed cats?



    Studies indicate that the cats prefer to hunt introduced "pest" species (pigeons, rabbits, mice etc) and in Tasmania the feral cat co-exists with the marsupial "Native Cat".

    "Eradication methods, even if implemented in the most humane manner possible, cannot solve the feral cat problem. They are frequently unpopular with the public and at best they are only temporary fix. Trap-neuter-return programmes may be time-consuming and seem like a drop in the ocean, but offer the best hope of a long-term solution to the cat population problem, giving healthy ferals the chance of a decent life and freedom from the otherwise endless cycle of breeding while those which cannot be re-released should at least be given a humane and painless escape from their predicament."
    And how many are sacrificed to be the next meal or plaything of these neutered cats?

    "C.A.T.S. is currently the only organisation in Australia involved in long term studies of the "Sterilise and Return to Home" (Trap-Neuter-Return) method of controlling feral colonies. Trap-neuter-return is the only long-term effective method of controlling feral populations."
    Their efforts are to be applauded, but their assessment, I fear, is lacking.

    Cats are a carrier for the Toxoplasmosis pathogen. I doubt that there is a equitable co-habitation situation between marsupial cats and the feral population - just natural competition. One will outlast the other if their niches overlap and they can't adapt to alternate food sources.

    Although habitat change is putting pressure on several marsupial species, the fox is not established there. Cats are present, however, and are causing problems for native mammals through predation and the transmission of diseases such as toxoplasmosis.
    Ref.

    It is a tricky topic - but difficult to look at just one species like cats - especially a carnivore that is definitely going to kill or be fed the by-catch of the oceans, the waste from the broiler sheds and slaughterhouses.

    Can you apply the neuter and release technique to only one species and not afford to think of the implications for the other species?

    No. You can't.

    There is always a bigger picture.
    "if compassion is extreme, then call me an extremist"

  47. #97

    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Quote Geoff
    Archaeopteryx, the theory sounds good but it is theory. You don't live here and you don't know.
    I spend an hour a day, looking at the mangled face of a baby possum, when I'm bottlefeeding him and it sometimes makes me cry. That's my reality. The vet told me that his injuries are typical of those she's seen many times, inflicted by cats.
    Over 90% of land clearing in Qld. is for grazing animals, which is why I don't buy meat or dairy products.
    I don't want to spend any more time arguing with an anonymous person who chooses not to disclose any information about themselves.
    BTW - there were no cats here 200 years ago, which is comparatively recent history.
    Yes, Geoff, I live in the UK and you are in Australia. I was unaware of the Australian problem until I started looking into it recently. I'm not claiming to be an authority on the subject but just because you are there on the ground doesn't mean that you see and know all either. It is a dreadful state of affairs that cats are injuring and endangering native animals. I do empathise with your situation. I'm looking after sick animals here myself. It seems that eradication is impossible though so what are you going to do? Keep treading water and mowing down the cat population only to have it increase further or try to stabilize it and reduce the death toll for both native animals and cats? Trap, neuter, return, seems to me, to be the way to do this. That's my opinion.

    BTW - I have been on forums before where I disclosed my name and location etc. and this time I have chosen anonymity for my own reasons. Of course that does not invalidate my viewpoints in any way but I will respect your wish not to communicate with me in the future if that's what you really want.

  48. #98

    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Quote veganblue
    There is always a bigger picture.
    Veganblue, I appreciate that there is a complex web of interactions suffering serious damage and that this issue cannot be dealt with effectively in isolation. It would seem though that eradication of cats in Australia (as elsewhere) is impossible so the best course of action, it seems to me, is to try and stabilise and reduce the population to reduce the impact on the native wildlife. Trap, neuter, return seems to be the most effective way to do this, other methods seeming to produce a counterproductive effect. Of course the will and resources to do this are obviously lacking as I imagine are the will and resources to deal with the other problems you mention.

  49. #99

    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Quote veganblue
    And how many are sacrificed to be the next meal or plaything of these neutered cats?
    Apparently less than if these cats were unneutered. That's why I support TNR both for cat welfare and in order to have a positive impact on native wildlife.

    Again, I don't claim to be an all knowing, all seeing expert on this subject. Some believe that attempting to exterminate the cat population is the way to go whilst others are arguing that this is actually counterproductive and TNR would be a more effective method resulting in fewer cats occupying territories and therefore less impact on wildlife. The former method seems the more simplistic of the two to me. I support the latter both for cats and for wildlife.

  50. #100
    SaveTheAnimals
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    "I have referred it to a few AR people and they say yes, it's true.
    I don't blame Ingrid for not liking dogs if she was bitten by one, and that doesn't make her a bad person. If PETA elects to commit euthanasia on healthy animals that is their choice. But I won't endorse them any more."

    I don't think i could disagree more. That is no reason to MURDER the animal! just because A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT dog bit her she murders them..... Also, if they elect to commit euthanasia then it must be stopped!

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