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Thread: PETA killing animals?

  1. #151
    veganblue's Avatar
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Due to this thread being temporariily closed I replied in a PM to Dreama as it was a response to her. Since it contains an apology it is possibly best here also, as Dreama had some good information to share.

    Dear Dreama,

    Firstly I would like to apologise for the tone of my last post that was in response to you in the PETA kills... thread. It was blatantly antagonistic and had little regard for you and for that I am very sorry.

    The information that you provided was *gold*. I read the entire pdf and am thoroughly convinced that CO2 *is* a painful death and definitely not the humane approach that it is touted as being. I was having my doubts about it due to knowing that the body responds to slight increases in CO2, but does not respond to decreases in O2; therefore a device that absorbed CO2, but introduced N2 (inert) would be *preferrable*.

    I will contact PETA with regards to this matter.

    On the whole topic of killing - I personally hate it. At the same time there are situations that require "management" that need ethical and humane methods of euthenasing - as distressing at that is.

    We have a situation in South Australia where man introduced koalas onto and island that is now being deforested by the burgeoning population who are destroying their own habitat as well as that of the other dependent species. It is a complex problem since the population there is free of the clyamidia that is in the mainland population, as well as not being easily rehomed in new territories. We advocate neutering but there is a population of 10,000+ on the island and it is increasing; there is the possibility that many animals will die a painful death due to exhausting the habitat, not just koalas. This is a *natural* process but very distressing. They are safe for now as no political gov't will address the issue by culling - which in the end may be the hard but most responsible answer.

    At no point do I say that these things are easy to think about, let alone make decisions on.

    What to do about the mice issue raised? I don't know! It's all distressing. I did not say that they should all be killed - and agree that that would be a simplistic option. It is not, however, something that I suggested.

    Cats have a very bad name in Australia, because they have characteristics that are unknown in this landscape except in the Quoll - a marsupial cat carnivore equivalent. The difference is that Quoll have a slow reproductive rate - typical of Austrlian species since we have a barren landscape and ancient fragile depleted soils.

    Anyone releasing even a spayed cat into the wild would be considered in Australia of being a criminal - there are possibly hefty fines for dumping of animals - but entirely apart from the grose neglact of the cat itself - they are natural killing machines and depopulate large areas of all animals smaller than themselves. The largest threat to the Australian Lyrebird is cats - after human caused habitat destruction of course.

    I am glad to hear that you are involved and active in your support of your ethics.

    Edit: details of my current activities removed.

    The thread is closed - I am sorry that I have not been able to post this publically there but if you wish it you can do so as it is an apology.

    Warm regards, Alistair.
    I have contacted PETA - I am very keen to get a response on this one.
    "if compassion is extreme, then call me an extremist"

  2. #152
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    In case there's any misunderstanding (I have already mentioned several times that I haven't accused Veggiesosage for encouraging illegal activities): He does NOT support the ALF. He doesn't believe that their solution works and that there is a danger that economic sabotage could end up harming those they want to protect ie the animals as well as humans.

    If you want to discuss PeTA killing animals, you can continue here, if you want/need to discuss member conflicts, please do it in the 'Conflict Zone'.
    I'm posting this here because Veggiesosage wants me to do it here. In other words - he is not banned for posting anything that can be interpreted as supporting anything illegal.

  3. #153
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Quote veganblue
    I have contacted PETA - I am very keen to get a response on this one.

    Last night (1:30am) I spoke to someone at PETA's Norfolk office and understand now the motivation behind what was described in this article - that was posted earlier in the thread.

    For the majority of people, the answer to a pest animal is to kill it. There are companies whose sole activity is the extermination of animals in unwanted areas. How is anyone opposed to this situation going to make headway in this field?

    Petitioning and protests are probably going to have little to no effect. What PETA has done is to engage one of the biggest companies in this area in a dialogue where they can encourage the development of humane solutions - and hopefully, non-lethal traps or techniques.

    Asphyxiation via carbon dioxide is not a painless way to die. PETA is painfully aware of that (I am relieved to note) and yet with a few small modifications, this could be altered.

    But demonstrating the need is one of the biggest things in encouraging R&D $$$ in this area - and that is what PETA is doing - along with many other pursuits including the banning of ''glue'' traps.

    They knew that they would cop flack from a lot of sources; but PETA is working at being effective in creating change - not just presenting an idealised point of view that while laudable, doesn't change anything in the real world.

    I was worried - but my faith in PETA is well and truely restored.
    "if compassion is extreme, then call me an extremist"

  4. #154
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Quote veganblue
    I was worried - but my faith in PETA is well and truely restored.
    That's the spin they're giving it now and I'm sorry to hear you have fallen for it.

    It does not explain why they were taking in animals that they claimed would be rehomed and killing them.

    Nor does it explain why they are opposed to the no-kill shelter movement.

    I have no problem with them attacking contradictions in the behaviour of certain shelters, or of pointing out that no-kill shelters may not have the resources to bring an entire area a no-kill solution but they have never proposed an integrated solution, or related legislation or used their resources and influence to stop these animals being killed.

    As for the development of humane solutions, that's bunk. The humane solutions - which is to say pain-free killing - are already there.

    Cheers

    Mike

  5. #155
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    I do hear rumours and have noted a lot of antipathy against PETA - which puzzles me considering what their stated goals are and the amount of work that they do participate in.

    I had not ehard or read anywhere that they actively oppose the no-kill shelter movement.

    I do see them, however, responding to a problem that vastly out weighs the resources they or we, as the rest of collective society, are willing to provide.

    Please - if you know the answers to a better way - provide them;
    - if you have a integrated solution
    - if you can put forward a Bill that will be taken up by a Senator that has sufficient support to be passed into legistlation
    - if you know a better more effective way for PETA to use it's resources in addressing every single issue regarding human interactions with animals that comes across their doors

    ...then I highly recommend that you become part of the solution and put them forward.

    It is *very* easy to get the scale of the problem out of perspective - just look at intensive farming where the annual slaughter is in the billions - trying to get the scale into a framework where something can be changed... it's not easy.

    It is easy, however to point the finger and find fault.

    Maybe animals would be better off if PETA never existed. Somehow I doubt that anyone can seriously argue for that point though.

    Quote Michael Benis
    As for the development of humane solutions, that's bunk. The humane solutions - which is to say pain-free killing - are already there.
    Who is developing them? Who is using them? Where is the social / political / ethical / economic pressure to use them? It's all very well to say they exist but another thing to realise that they are not being used.

    Who is doing anything about it? It seems PETA, for one, are. Do they then not deserve our support?!

    What is the point of running down the largest animal interest based organisation in the world (currently)?

    Thank you for having something to say Mike - but what are you saying? That PETA does no good at all?
    "if compassion is extreme, then call me an extremist"

  6. #156
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    VB,

    I've never understood why people have to turn this into "either you're for everything we do or your against us".

    PETA have done a lot of good work but they have in my opinion made some big mistakes with this. If they had the guts to take a cool look at and reappraise some of their statements, including Newkirk's blanket attacks on no-kill shelters, it would not only say something for the organisation's integrity, it would also garner more support.

    At the moment they have worked themselves into a corner and I for one am not going to give money to support an organisation that rubbishes people who work very hard saving animals' lives or which could once again be exterminating animals that have been brought to them to be rehomed.

    All it would take is a clear and coherent reappriasal of their policies in these areas for a lot of people to move on and return to supporting them.

    Believe me, I take no pleasure in attacking PETA. Fortunately there are other organisations doing the same work and they have my full support.

    Cheers

    Mike

  7. #157
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Thanks Mike. I have to admit to being a bit prickly with regards to criticism of PETA. I don't love everything that they do, but I don't see the point of pulling down our allies when there is a sea of opinions that opposes us on the ''outside'' of our perspective.

    I have not seen any material regarding PETA's stated position on no-kill shelters so if you could provide a link that would be helpful.

    "if compassion is extreme, then call me an extremist"

  8. #158
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Hi!

    I don;t see this as "pulling them down", if anything it is attemting to pull them up in both senses of the pun. Nor do I see PETA on my side or the animals side in this, since their mixed communications reinforce people's sense of animals as expendable and very much secondary to human needs and wishes.

    I've had a brief look for the Newkirk inteview, which used to be available online, but can't find it anywhere. It is of course quoted selectively in all the various anti-PETA sites. Here are bits on a pro-no-kill site which is, however, less hysterically anti-Newkirk than many.

    http://www.ringling.com/weekly/EZine134af1.htm

    Sorry I couldn't find the original today and don't have the time for an in-depth search (working again!). Keep bugging me if you don't have any luck yourself (an dplease post the link if you do!). It may of course not be online anymore. There is also an audio interview at CNN which touches on some of this.

    You may equally want to try and find out a little about the Humane America Animal Foundation set up by PETA co-founder Alex Pacheco when he left PETA after 20 years. This organisation differs specifically on the issue of no-kill shelters.

    The bottom line is PETA has saved many, many animals' lives by encouraging people not to eat them, but has not otherwise saved nearly as many lives as it could. That was also Pacheco's asessment, though he has been very careful not to attack PETA publicly - out of loyalty not fear, I hasten to add.

    Cheers

    Mike

  9. #159
    Pilaf
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    I just remembered/realized I was partialy responsible for this thread. Oops.

    But yeah...I get annoyed a lot when a lot of omnis assume that just because I'm a vegan, I'm in PETA. I told them that's silly..it's a bit like assuming all parents should join Focus On the Family.

    It's a group which focuses too much on celebrity endorsements and controversy. They wanna stir up trouble on issues like fur, which happens to be so expensive that the average person simply isn't effected by boycotts of such product. Leather is more plentiful and causes more destruction to the environment to produce, for one..when are they gonna hold leather protests?

  10. #160
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Quote Pilaf
    It's a group which focuses too much on celebrity endorsements and controversy. They wanna stir up trouble on issues like fur, which happens to be so expensive that the average person simply isn't effected by boycotts of such product. Leather is more plentiful and causes more destruction to the environment to produce, for one..when are they gonna hold leather protests?
    I think of them as one group that has a specific way of working and that doesn't please everyone - but it does still work towards the same goal - namely getting people to think and change their behavior.

    PETA uses a range of approaches and techniques that more reflect the sensationalist nature of our societies attention span. I am suggesting that it is more a reflection upon the way general society works than something that is merely PETA.

    It sometimes is offensive for the thinking public...
    "if compassion is extreme, then call me an extremist"

  11. #161
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    Thanks Mike. The article is very interesting and something that we were discussing locally after a recent court case involving a President of our organisation (till 1985) who was convicted of animal cruelty.

    This man is an elderly gentleman now; he was fined and is not allowed to own an animal anymore.

    Quote Local paper
    ******* refused to take his seriously injured and ill dog to a veterinarian because he believed the dog would be euthanased.

    The dog, which had a serious spinal injury, could not walk and was fed "wholemeal bread with peanut butter and crushed vitamin tablets, together with small pieces of fruit" by Karolyi.
    Apparently the dog could no longer walk and was restrained on a short lead on a square of carpet.

    There are no justifications for allowing the dog to suffer and not receive veterinarian care. If treatment was not an option (and the dog was quite old also) then the kindest thing would be to permit euthanasea - as distressing as this would be.

    This discussion led onto the conditions in some of the local no-kill shelters that house dogs that have been dumped and cannot be rehomed due to antisocial / dangerous behaviors and are fated to basically live in concrete cages for the rest of their days. There are dogs that have been there for 9 years.

    At which point do you decide that quality of life is insufficient to prolong - or at which stage do you decide that solitary confinement with no hope of rehousing actually becomes a form of cruelty in itself?

    Quote Ingrid Newkirk
    "It is a totally rotten business, but sometimes the only kind option for some animals is to put them to sleep forever," Newkirk said. "I don't think a dog living in a cage walking in circles for the rest of its life in a dog prison is a swell thing."

    While several dozen shelters in Virginia have adopted a no-kill philosophy, PETA has not.

    "It sounds lovely if you're naive," Newkirk said. "We could become a no-kill shelter immediately. It means we wouldn't do as much work." Newkirk said PETA goes into bad neighborhoods and rescues animals that are unadoptable.

    "Nobody wants most of the animals that we touch," she said.
    It is difficult to think of the scale of the problem. PETA is not dealing with puppies or necessarily healthy trained adult dogs. I am sure that they come into contact with them - and these are the ones that are rehomed. But they attend to the more difficult cases - which is seen in the numbers that they euthanase.

    Given a choice to house thousands of unmanageable animals in solitary confinement and feed them other animals for the remainder of their days; it borders on a form of cruelty in itself.

    It is not a simple problem - and no one would suggest that killing animals is an easy solution for a vegan organisation. I would hate to see the resources being spent instead on dog prisons, with fewer animals then able to be assisted and the remainder left to die on the streets or at the hands of less compassionate operators.

    (I was aware of Pacheco's seperation from PETA - but I would suggest that there are numerous reasons for the split - one of them being the constant arguing between Newkirk and Pacheco. I don't think that working with Newkirk would be easy. I think that the work that they both do is greatly laudable.)
    "if compassion is extreme, then call me an extremist"

  12. #162

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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Quote veganblue

    Petitioning and protests are probably going to have little to no effect.
    One could say this about almost ANY subject. It doesn't mean we have to colaborate with clearly unethnical companies such as rentokill and that group is as unethnical as it gets.

    What PETA has done is to engage one of the biggest companies in this area in a dialogue where they can encourage the development of humane solutions - and hopefully, non-lethal traps or techniques.
    I can't believe anyone would fall for this. I mean their whole policy is to kill animals. They aren't going to suddenly start using humane traps.

    I love rats. The idea of a group that specifise in murdering them is bad enough but to have it endorsed by an 'animal rights' group. Words fail me.

  13. #163
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Hi VB,

    I'm afraid I don;t think the sitiaton is as simple or as rosy as you are making out.

    The example of the rather eccentric old man has nothing to do with the many people who put a lot of energy and their own money into no-kill shelters trying to rehome animals. It is by no means typical of the dogs PETA has helped kill or killed directly, or enabled others to justify killing cheaply.

    As you mention the numbers are high. Much too high for all these dogs to be unhealthy or incurably injured.

    Nor does it have anything to do with the people who brought healthy strays to PETA for rehoming believing that a vegan/vegetarian organisation would do everything to rehome them and would have made other arrangements had they realised that this would not have been the case.

    Newkirk's attitude to strays and her non-ethical mathematical approach to their suffering/rehoming and animal population control has as many parallels with the amoral/immoral capitalism or the Nazis as her own comparisons with respect to factory farming. Her attempts to discredit those who have criticised these policies rather than to listen have an equally fragile moral foundation.

    This is all extremely sad because it has undermined PETA's causes and indeed the reputation of the animal rights movement as a whole, and apologism for the situation allows PETA to carry on digging up this quagmire.

    As for Pacheco and his commendable loyalty, the only substantial policy difference between the new organisation and PETA is its stance on non-kill shelters.

    Cheers

    Mike

  14. #164
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    Hi Michael,

    I need some sort of source for these kind of assessments. It is all too easy being caught out only knowing part of the story and so far, you are the only one I know of saying these things.

    So - what do you do with all the animals that are brought in once the local community has exceeded saturation point? I think that this point may have already been met in Norfolk some time back.

    Hi Dreama,

    I am glad that you love rats Dreama. I do too, having had a companion one for a number of years. I am sure that there are many people at PETA that do so also. At least they are trying to engage with the organisations that are doing the killing and addressing the inherrent cruelty in a lot of their traps. You would be aware of their campaign against glue traps. Does it not make sense that if a company is *clearly* unethical, to make steps to make it ethical? I suspect that what PETA is doing will have more effect in the long term than any personal boycott of your own of Rentokil...

    You don't believe that Rentokil will change. PETA does. At least they are giving it a go.

    I don't understand your point of commenting. What reasonable alternatives are you suggesting?
    Quote dreama
    I can't believe anyone would fall for this. I mean their whole policy is to kill animals. They aren't going to suddenly start using humane traps.

    I love rats. The idea of a group that specifise in murdering them is bad enough but to have it endorsed by an 'animal rights' group. Words fail me.
    It seems that PETA has vision that your pessimism prevents you from realising.

    Who put the substantial money into developing animal testing alternatives? The benevolent public? The outraged activists? maybe it was the companies that were profiting from the tests... remember Revlon?
    "if compassion is extreme, then call me an extremist"

  15. #165
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    I'd just to voice my support for what veganblue has been saying and for all the work that PeTA does.

  16. #166

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    This article should explain what to do with all the homeless animals and how no kill can be run: http://www.abolitionist-online.com/a...rebuttal.shtml

    Also PETA didn't just talk with Rentokill. They gave them an award! If you award someone's killers it generally means you don't like them very much. I've just read there page on keeping rats and mice as 'company animals'. They need to check their facts. Their was no mention of letting rats roam freely. They seemed to think rats would be ok in a 15 gallon tank (far too small and tanks aren't suitable for rats). I did email them ages ago and gave them kim Sheringham's link but they still haven't updated their information.

  17. #167
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    The article has an interesting referrence to the Tompkins County SPCA which is a no-kill shelter. I found some excellent information on it and will be using it at a later date.

    What they are doing is fantastic. There is no other way to describe it. They focus on involving the community which means being open at hours that are accessable, going to all community events with animals for adoption, being in the media 2 out of 3 days. Asking for help - at all opportunities. People can always say no.

    While I am not privy to the situation in Norfolk or the discussions I am not about to jump to conclusions on this one and black tar the whole organisation. The award is purely to stimulate the alternatives funding stream, This should be blatantly obvious. Who else is going to develop and distribute humane kill-free solutions to ''pest'' control? Who better than the companies themselves...
    "if compassion is extreme, then call me an extremist"

  18. #168
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Quote veganblue
    Hi Michael,

    I need some sort of source for these kind of assessments. It is all too easy being caught out only knowing part of the story and so far, you are the only one I know of saying these things.
    Hi VB,

    just back from holiday. Here are some animals rights sites where you will see plenty of others are saying similar things on the basis of Newkirk's own statements:

    http://www.abolitionist-online.com/e...arch2006.shtml

    http://www.nokillnow.com/PETAIngridNewkirkResign.htm

    Here is part of the interview with Newkirk that I can't find, with some pretty harsh (or biased if you prefer) annotating comments:

    http://brianoconnor.typepad.com/anim...port_on_p.html

    More anti-PETA pro-animal-rights comments here:

    http://www.care2.com/c2c/share/detail/69309

    Unfortunately the full text of the interview referred to and quoted in part on some of the above sites does not seem to be available anywhere on the net that I can find easily, including on CNN's own site, where it could be find until just a couple of months ago.

    With regard to your other comments, there's no question of my wanting to tar everyone working for or with PETA with the same brush, but simply the fact that their founder and chief mover is in my opinion propounding reprehensible and hypocritical views and campaigning against the support for animals you yourself recently praised in response to Dream's link, and that I believe Newkirk and those who support those policies within PETA either actively or tacitly or by blankly defending the orgnaisation need to take on board. As I stated above:

    "This is all extremely sad because it has undermined PETA's causes and indeed the reputation of the animal rights movement as a whole, and apologism for the situation allows PETA to carry on digging up this quagmire."

    It's time PETA moved on from this.

    Cheers

    Mike

  19. #169
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    I think we all need to look at the big picture. In the US alone, we euthanise roughly 7 million domestic animals each year. In a perfect world, we would not have kill these animals. We would not eat animals nor would we experiment on them. There is no excuse for the atrocities that we commit each day but it is a reality. What do we do with these 7 million dogs and cats if we don't euthanise them? We could, of course, house them on some giant ranch where they get to live out their natural lives. But who is going to pay for this? Certainly not the tax payers. Not one cent of government money would go to fund this and the average citizen will not want their property or sales taxes increased to fund this sort of massive project. I just don't see how to solve this problem when most people don't care about animals.
    Regarding no-kill shelters: I volunteered at one of these for almost a year. They were technically "no-kill" but believe me, they did put animals down...just not for space. If the no-kill shelters do not take in the animals (because they have no more room) then the "owners" of that animal will just take the dog or cat to the county shelter who will put the animal down after three days. Or, in some cases, the no-kill shelter would take in a dog and later find out that the dog would require several hundred dollars worth of medical bills. That leaves the shelter with a dilemma: do they take that dog and spend the money on him or do they humanely euthanise said dog and spend the money on saving several other healthy dogs?
    I don't believe that we are even close to having a situation where there is no need for euthanasia. I wish there were. I hate the idea of it. I wish it didn't have to happen, but until we see radical reform of the treatment of animals, someone will have to deal with the problem.
    Should PETA be involved with it? I don't know. I'm not there in the trenches with them fighting for all of the causes that they fight for. Should we stop supporting them? I don't believe so. I believe in the work that they do and am confident that they are opening the hearts and minds of many people.
    Again...I'm not saying that I am "pro" euthanasia. I hate the idea of it but understand the necessity.
    You are not required to complete the task of repairing the world, neither are you free to abstain from it.
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  20. #170
    forthebirds
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    I read through this very interesting thread and wanted to add a couple of things.

    Ingrid is basically against "No-Kill" Shelters for the sheer fact that the amount of unwanted animals far outweighs the ability for these shelters to take them all in. And unfortunately these animals tend to languish in cages because of the lack of foster and/or adoptions. Have any of you ever been to a Petco or Petsmart store that house unwanted cats? I am horrified by the length of time some of these animals have spent in their cages in these stores. Some have been there for years! These are NOT feral animals - these are abandoned by their owners for whatever reason. And I live in a VERY populated area that already has a very high awareness for adopting shelter animals. But it hardly makes a dent.

    My understanding of PETA's acitivities regarding euthanising animals is primarily removing animals from Southern shelters who were slated for gassing and then alternatively using a more humane method. I have no idea if these animals would be adoptable, but to me the point is they were slated to be killed regardless. And it's just not realistic that all can be placed.

    ----------------------------------

    I was struggling with a rat infestation in my yard this past year, caused initially by my neighbor's debris in his yard and then encouraged by my bird feeder litter. I agonized and agonized as my husband threatened to do something if I didn't decide how to handle it, because we needed to list our home for sale and couldn't have rats running around! (Of course I didn't mind having them at all and thought they were cute ) Even with tons of research on the matter, I simply could not come up with a way that I felt was legal (relocating them is not) or humane (because it meant killing them in some way). Eventually it didn't matter because my other neighbor put down exposed poison, which ended up killing some squirrels as well. So I was left wishing I had done SOMETHING more humane when the problem was small, instead of letting someone else take charge and do it the wrong way. My point is there is never an easy answer and until you are in the situation yourself, you never know what you may have to do.

    ----------------------------

    Regarding PETA's campaign against fur, it is hardly true any more that only the rich can afford fur. The majority of fur items are now cheap trimmed clothing and accessories that come from China - which use mostly dog and cat fur or rabbits. In fact, it is actually quite common that fur you'd think is synthetic is actually DOG because it is cheaper to produce! It may have switched from the "older women wearing mink coats" to the "kids wearing fur trim" but trust me, the industry has successfully found a new niche that needs to be blasted by a PETA.

    I refuse to throw the baby out with the bath water on PETA. Trying to distance ourselves from them because of some disagreements on policy or approach only feeds the real enemies.

  21. #171
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Hi Mike, I read through the rather vitrolic accounts that you posted links for and would have rathered not to really.

    I don't understand why these people - so filled with hate - would spend so much of their time focussing on groups that do a damn site more than most.

    With people like that I am moving further and further away from association with and AR identification and closer to an AW identification since the best writers for AR all seem to be angry nutters with nothing better to do than complain about what everyone else is doing.

    Why don't they bloody well pour their energy into something a bit more productive instead of tearing down their own credibility as well thought out campaigners, while attacking the work of others that are making a difference.

    What progress is AR having as a philosophy apart from throwing stones at those closest to them?

    Why aren't they out there hitting the really hard targets.

    Ugh - I am disgusted.
    "if compassion is extreme, then call me an extremist"

  22. #172
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Here Here! my 3labs and veganblue!

    there seems to be some matter of opinion concerning core AR beliefs, especially of the then-treat-humans-that-way variety. I hate playing god and making life and death decisions but when I imagine myself in the animals place.... I hope to god someone would have a syringe for me rather than keep me in a cage!

    I know for fact that Ingrid Newkirk lives and breathes to the highest ethical standards regarding all species. We just may not like what her experiences have taught her must be done.
    the only animal ingredient in my food is cat hair

  23. #173
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    My3labs: you extrapolate from one shelter to all no-kill shelters. What is unquestionable is that many of these shelters work very hard on limited funds to save animals lives. And save animals lives they do - and could do still more with the support rather than the opposition of an organisation like PETA. Newkirk has chosen to tar them all with one brush to justify her own stance with regard to "euthanasia".

    Veganblue: Yes, they are biased sites, but at least they are not the standard establishment anti-PETA sites. Leaving aside your "vitriolic" judgement of them, which isn't so unlike their judgement of Newkirk, it is clear that PETA has lost support because of its blanket stance on euthanasia and its needless opposition to no-kill.

    Pat: You write as if AR was a political party with a single manifesto: many people with very varied beliefs and practices place themselves under the AR umbrella.

    As for Newkirk, I believe her pride and aggression have forced her into a corner on this one and that she is doing a disservice to the animals, PETA and AR by her stance, which has and continues to cause divisions - as we have seen from this interminable thread.

    Many, and I am one of them, will not however fund an organisation when there is a risk that animals will needlessly lose their lives either directly or indirectly as a risk of the actions funded. It is also a way of helping pressurise PETA to reconsider its isolated stance, notwithstanding the "either you're for or against us" stance of those who consider Newkirk above criticism.

    Anyway I believe we have all had our say on this and are starting to go round in circles so I will not be contributing the thread anymore. It is clear that the majority of posters on this forum do not consider either Newkirk or PETA to be above criticism or to warrant unquestioning support. Hopefully PETA will consider the damage that a number of its positions on companion animals, strays and shelters have caused both the organisation and AR and vegetarianism/veganism and reconsider.

    Cheers

    Mike

  24. #174
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    I don't believe that the voices of some people within the animal rights movement over some of the things PETA has done, support kill shelters/give accolades to animal exploiters, does any particular harm, in my opinion the criticism is valid.

    PETA is hierarchical and Ingrid Newkirk has made a poor decision here, at least where abolitionists are concerned. The route of welfarism is arduous and protracted and is likely to cause much suffering (it isn't really welfare reforms, it equates to slightly less suffering, 'welfare' is essentially a misnomer), and may never bring about the changes many of us would like to see, and that is for animals to be protected from exploitation.

    A further criticism of PETA would be the fact that it doubtless attracts money that could go to non-hierarchical grassroots organisations that do excellent work in their local communities, but struggle with funds. PETA could do well to stick to outreach and exposing animal abuse.

  25. #175
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    I only mentioned the no-kill shelter where I volunteered to point out the fact that all no-kill shelters, sanctuaries, etc., have limits on space and when they have no more space to take in the dogs and cats, the owners of these animals will most likely take them to a county shelter (that has to take them - at least in this country). The shelter where I worked did great work and I am in no way saying that these organizations are bad. I admire them all for the work that they do.
    Until someone implements a program to house or re-home these millions of animals, then I just don't see what else can be done. I have no facts to back this up, but I imagine that most of the animals that are put down, would be perfect candidates for placement in a new home. So, the problem is not that they wouldn't make great pets in a new home...it's who will take them in? How do we pay for 6 million dogs and cats a year (and next year, and the next) to be housed for the rest of their natural lives?
    I don't blame PETA or shelters, I blame the government for not implementing laws to protect the animals in the first place.
    I'm a bit torn about PETA actually doing the killing. I think it does send a bit of a mixed message, but I guess I'd rather have them do it than send these animals to a gas chamber. Can we critique their actions? Yes. But ultimately, I respect them and want to see them continue all of the good work that they do.
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  26. #176
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    well said, my3 labs. Kill/ no kill. The problem is breeders and the whole 'pet' industry and allowing people to believe there are 'shelters' to deal with the toys, er animals, when we are done playing with them
    the only animal ingredient in my food is cat hair

  27. #177
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Quote my3labs
    II think it does send a bit of a mixed message, but I guess I'd rather have them do it than send these animals to a gas chamber.
    Talking about gas chambers... the idea of killing animals in small gas chambers (and even awarding people behind such methods) is exactly one of the reasons PETA are getting pepper from people who otherwise would have supported them.

  28. #178
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Thanks Korn. I read about that earlier and I guess my feeling is that PETA is trying to recognize them for at least trying to reduce their suffering (ie: painful death).
    My neighbor recently had rats in his house and had an exterminator come out and kill them all. They, of course, were poisoned and died painfully.
    I wouldn't kill a rat, dog, cow, etc. Please don't think that I'm condoning any company that does. I guess I'm just trying to see this from PETA's point of view; which in my opinion, is to improve things where they can...baby steps.
    I guess my theory is that PETA (or any other AR group) is not going to change the world overnight so they take the little victories when they can.
    I'm just trying to keep an open mind when it comes to the actions of groups that are really trying to do the same thing we're all trying to do.
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  29. #179
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    I will personally send a letter of thanks to the company and request such traps in future places of employment. Ever watch a struggling mouse in a glue trap? I would pick up the glue/mouse and put her/him in a carton then into the freezer to ease the suffering. I get sick just remembering.
    any positive steps should be commended. Or perhaps we can hold our breath for an ideal world?
    the only animal ingredient in my food is cat hair

  30. #180
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    I don't think PETA should give awards to people who make weapons made to kill animals, and I wouldn't expect an anti-slavery organization would give an award to one who was keeping slaves, even if he did it in a slightly nicer way than others.

    If you are against that men are being violent against their kids or 'their' women, you just don't give an award to the men who hit's them in the face with less force.

    I would have understood their award a little better if they have tried to promote one the already existing mouse traps (see the links below).

    http://www.abundantearth.com/store/mousetrap1.html
    http://www.themousedepot.com/
    http://www.trap-man.com/multi-live-c...mouse-trap.htm
    http://www.beautifulbritain.co.uk/ht...mane_traps.htm
    http://www.pestproducts.com/runway_trap.htm
    http://www.pestfree.co.uk/livemouse.htm


    With so many non-killing mouse traps on the market, they choose give an award to one that kills the mice.

  31. #181
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Quote Korn
    If you are against that men are being violent against their kids or 'their' women, you just don't give an award to the men who hit's them in the face with less force.
    Hi Korn,
    Thanks for the analogy and I certainly see your point.
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  32. #182
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Note: I apologise in advance for the aggressive tone of this post. This issue is getting really frustrating.

    Quote Korn
    I don't think PETA should give awards to people who make weapons made to kill animals, and I wouldn't expect an anti-slavery organization would give an award to one who was keeping slaves, even if he did it in a slightly nicer way than others.

    It seems that a lot of vegans (both here and elsewhere) are getting hung up on the word ''award'' and behaving like average members of the population so I will take a moment to explain.

    - PETA is a large organisation that does a great deal of work across the globe, this costs money so it is hardly surprising that they have a big budget.

    - this budget is not big enough to tackle *everything*, to address the international problems of companion animal excesses, animals in the wild, animals in entertainment, animals for ''food'', animals in ''research'', animals in cosmetics, animals for ''clothing'', animal ''control'' - I am sure that there are some that I missed. It also does outreach, education, vegan promotion, and has done more to raise the vegan agenda in everything than any other organisation in the world (arguably). How much do you think this costs?

    - there is not enough money to deal with everything perfectly - but does that mean that it should be ignored? Should PETA concentrate on only a few issues and make big steps and leave such issues as companion animals being gassed in country shelters to the state authorities?

    - one of the savings that can be made is in garnering *free* media, which is one of the things that PETA is really good with.

    *** Pat Buchannan;*** a known right-wing conservatist, gets an award from a left-wing organisation for promoting the work of Matthew Scully on Intensively Produced Animals. News-worthy? You bet! Are the horrors Matthew wrote about back in the news? Of course!! Is this about promoting Pat?? Are you nuts? Absolutely not!!! How much is this coverage worth? Priceless. I would hate to put a figure on it. Meanwhile the money saved goes into dealing with much tougher issues that idealists turn their backs on.

    - this is about resources people!!! and there is no organisation big enough to deal with it all - yet here we have people actively stopping PETA from doing a better job by removing their support!!!

    ''PETA don't have enough money to do everything perfectly, so I will take my money from them and give it to a much smaller group that cannot impact as much as a large organisation.'' Where is the logic???

    Of all the different collections of people in the world - I assumed that vegans would have a close eye on the bigger picture. Some of us do but it appears not all do.

    I read the veganfreak posts and again, there is the problem of not considering the scale of the problem. Wonderful - they took in *one* animal from a shelter. Does that then make it okay to turn your back on the THOUSANDS of others? At least PETA has the guts to address the issue. Maybe not perfectly - no thanks to unrealistic idealists.

    I have already explained about the gas traps and the rationale behind it. If you take the time to read the post it explains why pushing big industry into humane alternatives is going to cause bigger changes than patting already-existing manufacturers of humane alternatives on the back. Look at the marketshare of Rentokil compared to the small fry quoted here and tell me again that engaging with Rentokil is pointless.

    It's a numbers game.

    Quote Korn
    With so many non-killing mouse traps on the market, they choose give an award to the one that kills the mouse.
    The objective is not to give an award to Rentokil - but promotion of changes towards investing in humane alternatives. It's not rocket science, but it IS the big picture. my3labs and many others understand - I don't understand why some just *can't*.
    "if compassion is extreme, then call me an extremist"

  33. #183
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Quote Korn
    I don't think PETA should give awards to people who make weapons made to kill animals, and I wouldn't expect an anti-slavery organization would give an award to one who was keeping slaves, even if he did it in a slightly nicer way than others.

    If you are against that men are being violent against their kids or 'their' women, you just don't give an award to the men who hit's them in the face with less force.
    I may be the only one but I don't feel that the analogy can be made between violence against women or children which is condemned by all of society, and the killing of animals that *most* of society condones as a necessary activity.

    This is not rewarding an individual for doing something that is not as bad as before; this is teaching a major player in the industry a new set of ethics.

    Vegan ethics are still the exception - not the rule.
    "if compassion is extreme, then call me an extremist"

  34. #184
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    Default Re: PETA, ALF and 'blowing up stuff'

    Quote snivelingchild View Post
    As for killing animals, they euthanize animals just like any non-non-kill sheltor does because non-kill sheltors become full and end up just having to stop accepting animals. It does not save lives, there are too many animals for a perfect solution.
    That's the party line, but there is evidence from people who brought animals to Peta shelters who would have found other solutions had they known the animals would be killed, just as there is testimony from people that Peta did not "do everything they could" to rehome these animals rather than killing them. Why get involved in shelters if they cannot promote an ethical solution? There are other threads on this on the forum....
    Last edited by flutterby; Sep 26th, 2007 at 10:12 AM. Reason: moved from the PETA, ALF and 'blowing up stuff' thread

  35. #185
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    Default Re: PETA, ALF and 'blowing up stuff'

    I heard they dumped the bodies in a public fast food dumpster.....new kittens who obviously would have had a home....I think they did it for shock value to make a point. I can see someone's warped mind coming up with that idea but not actually going through with killing animals to make a point!
    it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble

  36. #186
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Quote dreama View Post
    Also PETA didn't just talk with Rentokill. They gave them an award! If you award someone's killers it generally means you don't like them very much.
    Oh my god, do you scream and berate an omni who just turned vegetarian? No, you say good for you, and encourage them to go further. Every step counts. Every motion towards good IS good. Even is they just cut down on meat, or go from factory farmed to small family farm (since there's less chance of the animals still being conscious when killed, which happens often in factory farms), I still say good.

  37. #187
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    There are MANY overcrowded and unwanted humans in the world. They starve, and suffer, and some experience lives where there is simply birth, excruciating pain, then death. Of course this is the most extreme case, and I don't mean just poverty. I mean they are dying of a disease we can treat here, we, or rather, THEY just don't have the resources to do it. Now, the difference is that we cannot decide for other whether they should live or die. This should be their choice, and I believe many would choose a painless death if at their disposal. Animals we cannot communicate with so effectively. Just like everything else we must decide for them. Yes, Billions of healthy, adoptable animals are killed each year. They are individually adoptable, but NOT COLLECTIVELY ADOPTABLE. We just don't have the resources and the open homes. Now there are always the horror stories of people killing animals in a less-than-humane way, but these are always individuals. There was a story a few years back where Peta members did this. They participated with peta, but they were not instructed by Peta to do this, just as with the terrorist actions. You cannot control the people that follow you. Why blame an organization, unless you expect them to prevent every unfortunate incident?

    An organization is constantly changing, as are the people in it. So until the OFFICIAL position of Peta changes in a way I dislike, I remain supportive. Unless there is an irrefutable and uncorrectable level of corruption within, I will always want to support them and try and make them better. If you don't like something they do, do something about it, don't just disassociate with them!

  38. #188
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    If you want to get rid of an animal, but don't want it killed, do your research on your shelters. It's not Peta's fault they didn't know. Peta is very open about their stance, just look on their website! No-kill shelters may seem nice, but they have to operate on such a small scale, and either become full and turn animals away, or accept them into less-than-suitable conditions. Not all will be adopted. I would not want to spend years in a cage myself. This is why I wish more people would foster animals until they are found homes. I have done work with Cat Haven in Baton Rouge, but all their animals were in foster homes, not a shelter. They turned away thousands of cats a year, though, who just wound up at animal control, or worse.

  39. #189

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    Quote snivelingchild View Post
    There are MANY overcrowded and unwanted humans in the world. They starve, and suffer, and some experience lives where there is simply birth, excruciating pain, then death. Of course this is the most extreme case, and I don't mean just poverty. I mean they are dying of a disease we can treat here, we, or rather, THEY just don't have the resources to do it. Now, the difference is that we cannot decide for other whether they should live or die. This should be their choice, and I believe many would choose a painless death if at their disposal.
    I'm sorry but I disagree with this. My mum died of cancer. She was in a lot of pain before she died but according to my dad she still wanted to live.

    As for Rentokill and the award, there are already more humane methods of dealing with rats and mice. They are called Humane traps where you catch the rodent and put it somewhere else. Then block off it's way back in.

    It's wrong to kill. PETA lost my support for good when they gave that award out and also murdered intelligent animals and dumped them in rubbish bins. Didn't even bother to bury them afterwards.

  40. #190
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    Quote dreama View Post
    I'm sorry but I disagree with this. My mum died of cancer. She was in a lot of pain before she died but according to my dad she still wanted to live.
    I'm not saying that everyone in a bad situation wants to die. That's why I believe they should have a chioce. My mother-in-law also had cancer. She chose to end her life rather than go through more pain, as her cancer was terminal. My point was, just like every other important decision, we are forced to do this with animals. We put them down when they are in incurable pain or dying. I think we are also forced to have kill shelters that euthanize animals rather than having over-crowded shelters where an animal might stay in horrible conditions, and may go unadopted for years. Many healthy, "adoptable" animals are never adopted because we just don't have enough homes. We don't. If we did, we wouldn't have an animal overpopulation problem. We don't have the resources to take care of them. I think the only options we have are to euthanize some of them, or let them all roam the streets without food or healthcare. The latter is what happens anyway, and this is why we have sick animals spreadind disease and being hit by cars every day.

    Again, I think they Peta was just saying thanks for trying to do something a little better. If you had a friend who stopped using personal care products tested on animals, and another friend who bought only vegan personal care products, you wouldn't (hopefully) berate the first friend for not going as far as the other would you? I try and applaude anyone person, group, or organization when they do any little step on imporivement.

    If you think what Peta did was wrong, TELL THEM. Try and give your opinion as to what you think they should do. Seeing as they are the biggest organization working towards a more vegan world, don't you think we should have them working for what we want? Try and cause a change.

  41. #191
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    Default Re: PETA, ALF and 'blowing up stuff'

    Quote Haniska View Post
    new kittens who obviously would have had a home
    I have four cats that I got as kittens because I thought it would be easy to find them homes. I tried to get them into the Cat Haven adoption that I volunteered with, but the program was full, like it is pretty much year round. That was even with me being their foster, they just didn't have the room for more kittens in their adoptions. I have a pit bull, whose sisters and brothers I tried to find homes for. They were pure breed puppies, whose father even had papers. Still not adoptable. Because they weren't adopted, they had to live far to crowded in my sisters house, and almost all died of Parvo. It's not easy to adopt out animals. An insane amount of effort goes into just one. At Cat Haven, there was probably about 2-3 adoptions a month, in a good month. They had over 50 cats in the program at a time. They had to turn down hurndreds. Most ended up staying with their fosters until they were too old to adopt. This made fewer foster homes available as they filled up.

  42. #192
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    http://www.peta.org/Living/AT-Fall2005/nokill.asp
    If you do even a little research, you can see that Peta has been pro-eithanization for years. This has never been a secret, and they have never tried to conceal it.

  43. #193

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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Euthanasia is killing an animal that is seriously ill, in a lot of pain and very near to death anyway.

    Killing an animal just because you can't be bothered to rehome them is called MURDER.

    So PETA is not Pro Euthanasia. PETA is Pro murder.

  44. #194
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Sometimes it's justifiable that an animal dies humanely early in life instead of enduring years of 'life' in a shelter.

  45. #195

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    Sorry but I totally disagree with this. Some No Kill shelter make a lot of effort to rehome their animals. I think you are confussing No Kill shelters with animal collectors. Their are some really good No Kill Shelters that deserve a pat on the back not to have PETA lie to them offering to rehome their animals. Then kill them secretly and dump them. No animal diserves that.

    Besides I would prefere life in a refugee camp rather then no life at all. At least there is hope then.

  46. #196
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    I totally agree with you Dreama.

    I also find the obturate cold logic of Peta's excuses quite nauseatingly hypocritical. It actually does veganism a great disservice.
    I get involved in lots of so-called discussions with people who take a negative view of veganism because they associate it with Peta.

    Cheers

    Mike

  47. #197
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Quote dreama View Post
    Euthanasia is killing an animal that is seriously ill, in a lot of pain and very near to death anyway.

    Killing an animal just because you can't be bothered to rehome them is called MURDER.

    So PETA is not Pro Euthanasia. PETA is Pro murder.
    You are right, I misspoke. My point it they are pro-kill-shelters or whatever you want to call it. Give it any name you want, but this is not a Peta issue. Most shelters are not no-kill. I don't believe this is a Peta discussion, but a kill/no-kill discussion.

    http://veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16822
    Shall we?

  48. #198
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    "I am so over having dogs" said the pert blonde 22yr old daughter of a friend after kicking out boyfriend (the pint sized pooches main carer) and starting a demanding new job.

    She will undoubtedly pass them along for a moderate price as the bitch has a couple litters left in her before she wears out and gets dumped in a shelter.

    Another friend, who has already killed most of her exotic pets, has her eye on a 'Winston Churchill dog'. Her fiance has now promised her a bull dog. How she will afford the vet bills, I don't know. I give it 2 years before she falls for another pet fad.

    Let's kill the pet trade. Let's enforce spay/neuter. Let's not let pet owners believe there is a 'place' for their unwanted friends. If people believe there is 'no kill' then watch for an explosion in dumped animals
    the only animal ingredient in my food is cat hair

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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Michael Benis: Thanks. It's good that I'm not the only one to see through PETA and their killing animals.


    Quote pat sommer View Post
    If people believe there is 'no kill' then watch for an explosion in dumped animals
    I don't think so, as the people you have in mind really don't care what happens to their pets anyway. I know people like that too. Some of them don't even bother taking their animals to shelters. They just let them out of their car and drive off without them. I even know a guy who pushed his 2 greyhounds over the side of a cliff. The less said about him the better.

  50. #200
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    Default Re: PETA killing animals?

    Quote dreama View Post
    Sorry but I totally disagree with this. Some No Kill shelter make a lot of effort to rehome their animals. I think you are confussing No Kill shelters with animal collectors. Their are some really good No Kill Shelters that deserve a pat on the back not to have PETA lie to them offering to rehome their animals. Then kill them secretly and dump them. No animal diserves that.
    I thought the Peta workers collected animals from kill shelters who were going to be killed by painful means?

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