Things meat eaters say and do

[TofuMuncher]

There are some people who spend time surfing on the net trying to attack vegans or who defend killing animals and use of animal products. They often use the same, few "arguments", and frequently visit vegetarian discussion groups.

Here's one I've seen a few times when people are asked why they are not against killing animals: "Death is a natural part of life". Death is a natural part of human life too, but that doesn't justify killing humans (unless you are a murderer with a very twisted mind), does it?

My wife and I are college professors (and vegans). We advise incoming students on their careers, course choices, etc. with the help of a survey that asks students about their "passions." One of my wife's students listed his passion as "animal rights." When she asked him if he was a vegetarian (after hearing him go on about how passionately he loved animals) he said that he still ate meat, eggs, and dairy because "it was the natural order of things."

Of course, there's hope here for him if he really does love animals as he says, but I can't imagine that billions of animals slaughtered annually in factory farms is "the natural order of things." Still, she's being patient with him. He may yet learn.

[TheFirstBus]

If he is talking about being more "natural" as a human he needs to relook at that, if he is saying animals eat other animals well animals eat plants to why can't we take after them??

[moomin]

I made a vegan cake while round my boyfriends house a few weeks ago, hes a vegetarian but the rest of his family like mine eat meat. When he offered some of my cake to his little sister she said urggh no i dont like that kind of food. Already at age 11 shes been brain-washed in2 thinking vegan food must be disgusting, she then saw the cake and proceeded 2 eat a large slice of it when she realised it wasnt poison, but actually rather nice! Later when id left my boyfriend spoke to her about being a vegetarian and she said that she wouldnt do it because she 'knows' it makes you unhealthy, and then said and this is what really annoyed me 'and besides i didnt kill it.' i mean thats just heartbreaking, if my future children ever said that id b so disappointed and angry that they had learnt 2b so in denile.

[TheFirstBus]

well your future children would know better right??

[moomin]

I should hope so yeh. I would bring them up as vegans and teach them 2 respect animals but despite my efforts u cannot control 100% how a person will turn out, and sometimes i just worry that like that girl my future children just wont realise that meat does mean murder.

[TheFirstBus]

Well I think your children would be more informed. Besides that little girl may even come around in time, I don't imagine she knows the suffering animals endure before they become her meal. It sounds like she has had some conditioning from a meateater or two. I think your kids will be fine.

[moomin]

Woohoo, thanku 4 saying that. Yeh they definately will be more informed and the girl did know a bit about what they go through but she doesnt know the full extent,shes probably in denile just as 90% of other meat-eaters are.

[TheFirstBus]

and its probably even more so for her because no one has told her otherwise yet.

[Michelle]

That is so sad because when I found out that meat came from animals, I was convinced by family that it was "okay because...blah blah blah". I'm sure she was told the same thing. I would think that most kids (unless raised in camo or on a farm) would ask a question or two when first finding out that the meat they are eating comes from creatures they learned to love in story books, right?

[Mystic]

A lot of the omni people I know understand where I am coming from, but choose to I suppose ignore it. They see a steak as a piece of food, rather then the buttocks of a cow! They see their milky cuppacino as something to drink instead of the nutrition for a baby calf. The cruelty behind what goes on is truly behind a black curtain. I guarantee that if more people actually saw what went on, there would at least be a lot more vegetarians/vegans.

I have heard a lot of 'food chain' type excuses...and that is their problem. I know I am doing what I think is right, and that is what counts. I don't believe in converting people. No one is making it hard for me and trying to convert me into a lacto or omni, so they deserve the same respect in my eyes.

[eve]

I guarantee that if more people actually saw what went on, there would at least be a lot more vegetarians/vegans.

Sorry banana, but there are heaps of people who see what goes on - think of the thousands of people who are actually the killers. And most of the killing of chooks is done by females - but why would I expect women to be more compassionate than men? Where I live, just about everyone goes fishing, in fact a close friend of mine, Dulcie, loves fishing despite my suggesting that the fish really wants to stay alive. Another friend at the swimming group, also mentioned that she loves fishing, and I pointed out that just as we enjoy swimming, so do fish. But her only reply - repeatedly - was "but they are just FISH!"

[ConsciousCuisine]

I have heard a lot of 'food chain' type excuses...and that is their problem. I know I am doing what I think is right, and that is what counts. I don't believe in converting people. No one is making it hard for me and trying to convert me into a lacto or omni, so they deserve the same respect in my eyes.

The difference is, if an omni would try to "convert you", the arguments for their cause would never stand up under yours, or any vegans' argument. Veganism makes sense on every level. Omni eating only makes sense on base, selfish, short-sighted levels. Anytime I am presented with something that makes no sense in any positvie way, I rebuke it and seek to educate/ share information. It would be wrong -for me- not to.

[moomin]

Exactly! Most meat-eaters havent made a conscious decision to eat meat they just do, because, well they can and they dont care. Which is why they always lose their arguments to vegans, who r vegans because they have made an opinion about something and acted on it. Eating meat isnt like a belief/way of life in the same way that it is for a vegan to not eat meat.

[Pembroke]

I agree with you guys 100% ...... almost. In a world of pure reason and logic, those arguing in favor of veganism would ALWAYS win. But alot of people are willing to completely ignore logic

Take my friends, for instance. I was at Ikea with a group of them. Ikea has a restuarant inside of it, and I was a little upset, cause there was virtually nothing for me to eat. We get to the table, and the topic of veganism came up, as it always does when I eat with my friends (they can't go through one meal without bringing it up).

So, we were talking about vegans, and one of my friends says "You can't live without meat. You'll die." WHAT!?! I asked him, am I not sitting next to you right now, completely alive, and a vegan? But, to everything I said, he responded "Nope, you can't live on a vegan diet. Besides, animals are here for us to eat." Sometimes it doesn't matter how well versed you are in the reasons to go vegan..... some people just will not listen.


Anyone ever gotten the "the bible says god put animals on this planet for us to eat" excuse? I've gotten it twice. My response: 1.) If there is a god, I hardly think he/she/it meant for animals to be pumped full of antibiotics and growth hormones, then brutally killed, just so we could have dinner. 2.) I'm an atheist

The second reason usually ends the argument

[moomin]

When people say things like u'l die from not eating meat u just know they r being stubborn. They know they r wrong, because hello as u said u r sittin right there but they just end up spouting out crap and going off the subject just because they dont wana admit they r wrong. And i swear i remember reading somewhere about parts of the bible that says animals are not made 4 us, which they r not ofcourse. I mean jesus christ (literally) the old/new testament which ever 1 it is (as u can tell im not exactly a big bible reader) but i know that it says things like when a woman gives birth she and everything she touches is unclean until a certain time, but get this, if she has a girl its unclean longer.Hard to explain, but read some of the bible cos then ul realise that some of it is actually bullocks. But there r some moral bits lol and included in there is that animals should also be treated fairly. As indeed they r all gods creatures!!

[TheFirstBus]

"you can't save the animals"

I hate that one

[beforewisdom]

There are some people who spend time surfing on the net trying to attack vegans or who defend killing animals and use of animal products. They often use the same, few "arguments", and frequently visit vegetarian discussion groups.

It annoys me that some vegan encourage those people by responding to their posts.

Those people feed off of attention......positive or negative.

I'd rather use my time on the internet to do something good, if only for myself. Readin up on nutrition, on news in the veg community, making friends in a nice forum like this.

Spending my time bickering with people who have nothing better to do then troll forums would make my life as pathetic as theirs.

[Michelle]

Anyone ever gotten the "the bible says god put animals on this planet for us to eat" excuse? I've gotten it twice. My response: 1.) If there is a god, I hardly think he/she/it meant for animals to be pumped full of antibiotics and growth hormones, then brutally killed, just so we could have dinner. 2.) I'm an atheist

The second reason usually ends the argument

This is one of the arguments that I hate the most. My OWN father used it on me even. "Even Jesus was a fisherman". WTF???? Anyway...I live in the "bible belt" of the USA and I've gotten that argument from every male that goes to a country church. I love the way people find a loop hole in the bible for each thing that they like to do. Oh...and this is a little off-topic, but kinda the same thing...I really hate it when a "bible toting" fanatic tells me things like, "Have a blessed day" and "the good lord this and that" and "Jesus would this and that" and "you should give to the church and you'll be blessed" then they turn around and gossip about people and have sex out of wedlock and lie, cheat and steal, etc. Then they wonder why I'm not as miserable as they are. Just like I'm not as miserable as them after lunch.

Since I'm ranting...

I work with this lady who is always talking about human rights and what's fair and what's good and blah blah blah. I have shared with her much information about the suffering of animals and she turns a deaf ear. She loves to talk, but when she gets her fried chicken or her barbecue or her fried fish, she sits at her desk not making a peep and really gets into it...like it's some sort of freakin' ritual (not like a habit type thing, but a ceremony type thing). I promise it takes her a whole 10 minutes just to situate herself and her food so she doesn't have to move again until she's done. Then, she will drink a whole bottle of juice or whatever and give out this big heavy sigh like she's never been so tired in her life. Then she wonders why she can't lose weight (very obese). Her excuse for eating meat is "my husband doesn't like anything but meat...we HAVE to cook it." Psshhht...yeah right. Of course she's also the type that can't cut up a whole chicken and has to have her steak well-done...cuz truth be known, if she would pay attention to what's really going on and what I tell her, she could never bring herself to eat meat. She knows it. That's why she blocks me out. And that makes me more mad than some redneck telling me "that's why God put them here."

End of Rant

[Pembroke]

AARRGHH!!! Just reading about that lady has me pissed, lol.

[TheFirstBus]

Last I remember jesus was havin' fun as a carpenter. Besides animals right and human rights walk hand in hand.

[TofuMuncher]

Besides animals right and human rights walk hand in hand.

Absolutely -- the contemporary expressions of oppression are the same in both cases (cough, CAPITALISM, cough), and need to be fought accordingly.

[Michelle]

AARRGHH!!! Just reading about that lady has me pissed, lol.

Oh yeah! Sometimes I just want to scream. To top it off, she complains about being jacked around on the job, yet she has 3 other people doing her for work for her and another lady filing her papers for her. The last person that did her job did it all by himself.

Last I remember jesus was havin' fun as a carpenter. Besides animals right and human rights walk hand in hand.

Precisely.

Absolutely -- the contemporary expressions of oppression are the same in both cases (cough, CAPITALISM, cough), and need to be fought accordingly.

Well, she also thinks that her race should have more rights than other minority races. I told her that I don't think anyone in this country has a right to be predjudiced except maybe the native Americans and the animals.That pissed her off pretty well, but really, none of us want to be stereotyped and if she thinks it's wrong for it to happen to her, I don't feel that she should do it to others.

[TheFirstBus]

Absolutely -- the contemporary expressions of oppression are the same in both cases (cough, CAPITALISM, cough), and need to be fought accordingly.

Yes so many probelms from that beast there. But also I meant the fact that by tearing down the facotry farms and making use of the land we could feed more people. Hense one thing effects another.

[TheFirstBus]

Absolutely -- the contemporary expressions of oppression are the same in both cases (cough, CAPITALISM, cough), and need to be fought accordingly.

Yes so many probelms from that beast there. But also I meant the fact that by tearing down the facotry farms and making use of the land we could feed more people. Hense one thing effects another.

[ConsciousCuisine]

but really, none of us want to be stereotyped and if she thinks it's wrong for it to happen to her, I don't feel that she should do it to others.

A-freakin'-MEN!

[TheFirstBus]

Well, she also thinks that her race should have more rights than other minority races. I told her that I don't think anyone in this country has a right to be predjudiced except maybe the native Americans and the animals.That pissed her off pretty well, but really, none of us want to be stereotyped and if she thinks it's wrong for it to happen to her, I don't feel that she should do it to others.

So I am going to take a guess that she is white (not to stereotype) but really white people came in and took over. Why should they have more rights because there is more of them. Racism sucks through and through.

[Vivisanctor]

I don't believe in converting people. No one is making it hard for me and trying to convert me into a lacto or omni, so they deserve the same respect in my eyes.

I disagree.

The rights of a meateater to eat meat and the respect we should have for his opinion are both insignificant compared to the rights of animals not to be tortured, and eaten.

You have to keep in mind that you are right. They are wrong. Why would you respect an opinion that is wrong, or uninformed?

[ConsciousCuisine]

So I am going to take a guess that she is white (not to stereotype) but really white people came in and took over. Why should they have more rights because there is more of them. Racism sucks through and through.

I am sensing she is actually African-American...? Michelle? Si or No?

[teacher Jack]

One of my male students, upon first learning I was a vegetarian immediately blurted out (in surfer-dude like voice)
"Dude, your not EVEN a man!"
That has always stuck with me. It reminds me that much of the stereotype and resistance to especially male veg's has much to do with the overhyped connection between eating meat and manliness.

[TheFirstBus]

We fall under many stereotypes, we should be kings of the home and bread winners and all that bullsh*t. Just remember none of it is true in the least.

[John]

Yeah, it seems like being a man in this world means exploiting and hurting those weaker than you. To me that seems like being a boy. Why were we given such long childhoods if not to learn compassion before being given the strength of men?

[negavert]

There's hope for the little sister, moomin, as she's already getting insight at an early age at an alternative; I never had that when I grew up--I was born and raised in Germany, the land of sausage and meat, then lived in rural Ohio. I never knew a vegetarian the whole time. It wasn't until I went to college in the "bigger" city of Columbus that the idea of vegetarianism even crossed my radar. It takes some people a while. I've finally become a vegan when I was 33.

[TofuMuncher]

Yes so many probelms from that beast there. But also I meant the fact that by tearing down the facotry farms and making use of the land we could feed more people. Hense one thing effects another.

I agree that tearing down the factory farms could be a good step, but even if we did, we'd still have the global politics of food, which dictate more about who eats and doesn't eat than the simple availability of food. I know this is unpopular to say around vegans, but I actually think that the "our diet can feed the world" argument is one of the weakest pillars upon which we stand, even if the elimination of animal agriculture would free up more calories for directly feeding people.

Right now, factory farming is ugly, resource intensive, expensive, degrading to animals, people, and the environment, but what really keeps people from eating are the macro-political relations between countries in a global system of exploitation. Food is used as a political weapon, mostly by the developed world. Once we address the root causes of that kind of politics, then we are in a better position, I think.

sorry if this is OT....

[TheFirstBus]

Now I never said we wouldn't have to deal with the politicians. I was speaking in the direct mindframe like if some of that other crap wasn't there. I personally think we have to destroy the borders.

[TofuMuncher]

Right on. Nationalism is a true obstacle towards a better world!

[TheFirstBus]

True enough. But what political system wants to give up there seat of power??

[Vivisanctor]

but what really keeps people from eating are the macro-political relations between countries in a global system of exploitation. Food is used as a political weapon, mostly by the developed world. Once we address the root causes of that kind of politics, then we are in a better position, I think.

To feed all the hungry in the world, two things would have to happen:

1) Food would have to be available for them.
2) We would have to get the food to them.

Adopting a vegan lifestyle does not address #2 directly, but it does pull #1 much much closer into the realm of possibility.

The argument is very weak, as you said.

I have used the argument with people before, but only because I saw that they value human life deeply, and it helped them to at least open up to the idea of veganism. Most people who are interested in anything are interested in their own well-being most often, and second most often, interested in the well-being of their fellow man. So it seems to make sense to open up your discussion of the merits of veganism with the positive effects it has on your body/life span/health, and it's effects on the problem of starvation. It obviously doesn't make them believe in veganism immediately, but it helps them understand that you are not the stereotype of an ARA who cares more about animals than about people. Them knowing that you are just as interested in humans as you are in animals helps them open up, because then you have something in common.

[TheFirstBus]

To feed all the hungry in the world, two things would have to happen:

1) Food would have to be available for them.
2) We would have to get the food to them.

Adopting a vegan lifestyle does not address #2 directly, but it does pull #1 much much closer into the realm of possibility.

The argument is very weak, as you said.

I have used the argument with people before, but only because I saw that they value human life deeply, and it helped them to at least open up to the idea of veganism.

I only use the arguement when people say "if people didn't eat meat there wouldn't be enough food to go around"

[Vivisanctor]

It blows my mind that some people just don't think things through at all. Some meateaters apparently don't realize that we have to feed the animals we eat. We feed them food we could just eat directly.

I spoke with my dad(very briefly, of course, just to be safe; talking with my father makes your IQ drop by one point each second, and I don't have much to spare after all these years ) yesterday. We were having the "I can understand why you don't eat meat, but why not drink milk" conversation... He told me that cows make milk all the time and that we may as well drink it. I told him that cows only make milk during and soon after pregnancy. He said he was certain that cows make milk all the time, regardless of pregnancy. This guy grew up in the country, in Pennsylvania, and didn't know this!

[TheFirstBus]

Oh yeah I get that all the time "I can see why you don't eat meat. But whats wrong with milk??" but thats ok because they are just uninformed so I inform them of why. I was lucky that my mother accepted by vegan choice as for my father I don't speak to him for other reasons.

[l337_v3g4n_1]

This gets me annoyed:
Kid (obice. Argh, ok, word for fat.): "C'mon, take a bit of this ham, you'll love it! It's only a little bit, just try it!"

Oh, it annoys me. Kids my age won't leave me alone on this veganism. I pity them, for not seeing. Oh, and here's another one:

Me: "ok, why don't you try being a veggie for 1 day, I bet you'll feel much better." (friendly suggestion, after endless harrassment)

Kid: (same one) "Ok, but only if you eat meat for 1 day, ok?"

me: "It's not the same thing, Think of it this way, I can't eat meat, but there is no such thing as not being able to stop eating something."

Kid: "yeah, it's completely the same thing!

... Annoying, isn't it?

[Kuklasmom]

I can thoroughly identify, 1337!

Here's the dialogue from my end of the age spectrum. (To clarify, I'm 56 years old; I've been a vegetarian for 35 years, and a vegan for the last 10 years. My friends and acquaintances know this; I don't proselytize, but if someone has questions, I'll answer them. I can at least plant a seed, which might grow into some food for thought.)

Acquaintance: "A person can't possibly eat a healthful diet without eating meat."

Me (spoken in a rational, respectful tone of voice): "If that were true, how is it that I'm still breathing?"

Acquaintance then changes subject of conversation. (The seed has been planted. This person now has something to think about!)

IMHO, most people know the truth (they don't think that animals commit suicide or that people wait until the animals die of old age!); they just don't want to face the truth. So they'll drag in any possible rationale for their actions (it's necessary for health; God commanded me to do this; whatever).

In short, most folks know that they are on pretty shaky ground, logically speaking! I highly recommend Carol J. Adams' book, Living Among Meat-Eaters. Ms. Adams speaks to lot of the ideas that have been presented on this thread. I found the book very helpful.

Best regards,
Kukla's Mom

[Korn]

I don't think the really unintelligent statements that defend using animal products cause much harm (except on the the person who states them!), but they can still be entertaining to listen to .

I've seen people who defend their meat eating in subtle ways by more or less switching the focus away from the question (why do I actually eat meat?). They're more complicated to deal with, but more 'effective', as we humans are very talented at fooling ourselves.

Some examples:

Statement: "Does animal products really increase the cause of disease? How do I know that this is research funded by the vegan movement" (Reality: The meat industry has a lot more power and money in 'ordering' research that supports the, than the vegan movement has).

"Meat harmful? Well, personally I'm against watching TV too much" (So am I, but is that really a reason to eat meat?)

And a similar one:
"Dairy can't be that bad. Cell phones cause a lot more harm". (Whether it's right or wrong: even if A is more harmful, why continue with B, which is harmful both for you and the animals involved?)

Another one from someone who has been a lacto-veggie for 10+ years: "Is dairy bad for my kids? I didn't know that" (This one is a little scary, because it is one of many examples of people who had a good chance to find out about these topics, but who simply aren't interested. Ignorance can be dangerous.)

"If meat and dairy is so bad, why isn't this documented, and why doesn't it get a lot of attention from medical experts?" (It is and it does, more and more.)

"Are you saying that I'm not a good father/mother?" (Tricky case, it's almost impossible to give parents information that implies that they could have treated their kids better without triggering such emotions / defense of the way the currently live. Few people are able to simply say "I'll look more into that" - and do it.

Another one, about children: "I believe in freedom, my kids should eat what they want". (What about the freedom of the animals they eat? What about other things they prevent kids from doing because parents find them harmful?)

Yet another one one, about kids: I'll give them both vegan food and animal products, and when they grow up they can decide" (Fact: these kids (or their parents) won't be able to judge, because they don't know how it feel to live on a pure plant based diet for some weeks or months, because they have never tried. How can they decide if they like it, if they haven't tried both?

Here's an interesting combination: "Drop meat and cheese? I could never do that!" and "Addictive? No, animal products can't be addictive!!!"

"I don't believe in extremism of any kind. I believe in the middle way, some animal products and some plants". (Variety is good, but a combination of things that cause harm and things that doesn't cause harm doesn't make sense. One can still eat varied food and eat vegan: Healthy vegans eat more varied food than people on a standard diet. Acting in accordance to what you know and feel is not extreme.)

"I'm into non-harming and couldn't even kill a fly!" (I wonder if they really think it makes a difference if they pay their grocery store to pay a slaughter to kill it?)

"But I never drink milk!" (Sometimes heard from people who consume huge amounts of products made out of milk).

And the classical one: "But I like beef" (normally comes with a description of how they like it, normally "medium"). People normally loves to take a trip to countries where they have to eat really different food from what they do at home, but at the same insist on not introducing any change in their food habits. Habit and convenience rules.

"I don't think we are meant to eat vegan food, because if we were, vegan food would have enough B12 in it". (These people probably did not get their B12 info from our site. B12 needs special attention, but IMHO not the kind of attention it often gets from some of the 'supplement extremists' out there...).

Fooling oneself can be much more harmful than coming up with "plain idiotic statements".

[l337_v3g4n_1]

I still get annoyed by the ignorant kids, but now I just ignoreª it. The only thing I'm nervous about is going to a new school, I just finished 9th grade. There are going to be a lot of kids a LOT bigger and a lot less understanding than my friends. (not the ignorant ones) well, I'll just try to ignore them. heh, wish me luck!

[Phoenix20]

Here's one for ya-
I was over my neighbors house the other night and she said "What else would we do with all of them?" "THey are gonna get killed for someone else to eat if not you" and concluded that whe understands why I can't eat cow, cause of their "big, sad, puppy like eyes" but that a chicken was ugly.
Ignorance is bliss, isn't it? I didn't want to argue my case with her, I am relatively new to the whole veggie thing and still sorting things out. I am being careful to form my own thoughts and points of view rather than blindly follow the vegan/vegetarian community and recite memorized 'answers to questions'.

[cast_the_flames]

recently i got:

"wait, but don't cows die or something if you don't milk them?"

only if you take their nursing babies away and feed them hormones to produce an unnatural yeild, smartass. grrr, people just spit out anything they hear without thinking about it at all.

[Vivisanctor]

he understands why I can't eat cow, cause of their "big, sad, puppy like eyes" but that a chicken was ugly.
Ignorance is bliss, isn't it?

--Interestingly enough, something I've learned from a lot of people is that if you don't answer some of their questions at all, especially if they're that ignorant, you actually do much more good. The people saying these thing really know they're wrong for suggesting such a thing. Don't let them get you started, that's all they're trying to do.

[Mystic]

Today I heard a beauty.

I was in class when I overheard this guy mention he was vegetarian. Having a common ground, I asked him, are you just vegetarian, or are you vegan...his reply:
"I am vegan in that I don't eat fish" - it turns out that he is a lacto-ovo veggie, but he still didn;t consider fish as "flesh"

[Phoenix20]

"I am vegan in that I don't eat fish" - it turns out that he is a lacto-ovo veggie, but he still didn;t consider fish as "flesh"

Yeah, I encounter those people to... on another non-veggie related site a woman told me she would "always be diferent from other vegans as she abstains from meat not for moral reasons and has no problem wearing leather."
I didn't want to start a problem with her by informing her that she is a strict vegetarian, not a vegan. I used to think that a strict vegetarian was a vegan, also, and know many people that do.

I think it is the mystery that attracts people to veganism, so everyone wants to say they are one but not sacrifice alittle. Even though it is relatively easy to be vegan, there are still sacrifices. To me, it doesn't seem like a sacrifice, but like things just couldn't be any other way for me. I do not actually consider myself vegan, but things don't happen overnight, and I am working on it. So it does kinda offend me when someone says they are but hasn't put much into it. The price you pay for mainstreaming the idea, so it is probaby for the better, anyways.

[l337_v3g4n_1]

One of my friends was debating with me:
"the cows are milked because they are cleaning thei're bodies, and getting rid of deseases and such."

I did not reply.