Things meat eaters say and do

[earthling]

Well...

I was ten years old when I went veggie, and all it needed for me to make that choice was meeting a lamb and a chick at school during a farm project, and then having the teacher tell me quite bluntly that they'd both end up on someone's plate. When it came to fur, I felt the same way... once I learned that the animal would die to provide it, I didn't want anything to do with it.

Most kids obviously don't make that connection, so perhaps more information is needed, and that includes information about how animals are treated. I think at the age of 12 most kids are mature enough to be told the truth about where things like fur, meat etc come from. It's not like this video is being shown to 5-year-olds. I don't think there's any need for gratuitous footage of violence - I can't stomach that even now, in my 30s - but I do think kids need to know the facts so they can make up their own minds.

Employing shock tactics is what PETA very often do, and I'm not always keen on their campaigns, but in terms of the facts themselves, including unpalatable ones like anal electrocution, yes, I think they should be out there.

And I think it's perfectly fair enough for PETA to criticise celebrities if they are peddling fur products, especially if those celebrities have an influence over kids/teenagers.

Just my 2p

[harpy]

I don't always think much of Peta, but I also don't think much of the idea that truths about animal cruelty shouldn't be published in case they upset someone's children. There is already a lot of upsetting stuff on the internet and elsewhere and I really think it's up to parents to monitor what their children look at and protect them from what they can't take (or else help them deal with it).

Easy for me as a non-parent to say I know, but what's the alternative?

[earthling]

And also... I think part of some parents' objection to children learning about animal cruelty is surely their own discomfort about the issue. Especially when it comes to meat - a meat-eating parent may complain about videos showing cruelty in the meat industry on the basis that it would upset their children, but the real reason would be because they don't want to confront their own behaviour.

[Festered]

My reply was;
' I get more angry at people trying to cover up the truth but I agree there are ways and means if the audience is young. 12 isn't that young though-I had already done all my own research at that age.'

[Festered]

And also... I think part of some parents' objection to children learning about animal cruelty is surely their own discomfort about the issue. Especially when it comes to meat - a meat-eating parent may complain about videos showing cruelty in the meat industry on the basis that it would upset their children, but the real reason would be because they don't want to confront their own behaviour.

I don't always think much of Peta, but I also don't think much of the idea that truths about animal cruelty shouldn't be published in case they upset someone's children. There is already a lot of upsetting stuff on the internet and elsewhere and I really think it's up to parents to monitor what their children look at and protect them from what they can't take (or else help them deal with it).

Easy for me as a non-parent to say I know, but what's the alternative?

And. ITA.

[Clueless Git]

And also... I think part of some parents' objection to children learning about animal cruelty is surely their own discomfort about the issue. Especially when it comes to meat - a meat-eating parent may complain about videos showing cruelty in the meat industry on the basis that it would upset their children, but the real reason would be because they don't want to confront their own behaviour.

Many other excellent posts already on the subject but this one is a most excellent 'putting in a nutshell' of what is actualy going on.

Once I watched a programme on female circumcision. In it women, who been genitaly mutilated themselves by their own parents, were helping hold down their own screaming daughters whilst they had their clitoris' sliced off and their vaginas partialy stitched up. (Not heard screaming like that since they played tapes of Myra Hindly and Ian Bradleys victims on the TV once, buts that not quite the point ...)

They interveiwed the women who had done this and something quite frightening emerged; The reason the mother were so intent on mutialting their own daughters was that it perpetuated the myths of 'neccessity', 'essentiality' and 'unavoidability'.

Like if they ever accepted that they were wrong to do this to their daughters then they had to accept that their own mothers were wrong to have done it to them. That all the child torture and life long suffering had all been wrong.

Facing that and setting their daughters free from the cycle was simply too much for the mothers to bear. Kinda like they could only cope with the wrong their parents had done to them, and their parents to them in their turn, by perpetuating the exact same wrong onto their own kids.

Couldn't help musing that an exact parrallel mindset exists amongst meat eating parents.

[Shepherd Mom]

And also... I think part of some parents' objection to children learning about animal cruelty is surely their own discomfort about the issue. Especially when it comes to meat - a meat-eating parent may complain about videos showing cruelty in the meat industry on the basis that it would upset their children, but the real reason would be because they don't want to confront their own behaviour.

I did a fur-free Friday demo last year the day after Thanksgiving and some guy in a car yelled at us b/c "my kids don't need to see that sh**!" THe posters weren't even graphic. I don't need to see his ugly face wearing real fur either but I didn't yell at him. Idiot.

[harpy]

There's some strange people around, for sure. Probably wise not to yell back...

[Clueless Git]

I did a fur-free Friday demo last year the day after Thanksgiving and some guy in a car yelled at us b/c "my kids don't need to see that sh**!"

"Help stop that sh*t from happening then Sir ..." might have been a good reply?

Good for you for getting out there and doing something about that sh*t, btw, Shepherd Mom

[emzy1985]

Not much said, just lots of smiles from the sick twisted vivisectors..........

[earthling]

Cupid Stunt:

Thanks, and yes I agree that there is a 'myth of necessity' that pervades the meat-eating world. For a meat-eater to realise that meat-eating is wrong involves not only admitting that they have been doing something wrong, but also that most of their friends and family are committing the same wrong, and that they live in a society which in fact is supporting and colluding in the wrong doing. It's a lot to take in.

[emzy1985]

I enlightened the guys at work to the "defensive omnivore bingo" that we play and even they thought some of the questions were stupid, which means that maybe finally they understand my beliefs.

[pat sommer]

I second that ,Earthing, your comment on Cupid Stunt's point.
Felt that way for most of my life: boy it feels lonely!
Paradoxically, knowing what we know also gives me sympathy for omnis so locked into their illusions

[earthling]

Something I heard this morning on the BBC1 programme 'Sunday Morning Live': a meat-eater said "Fast forward a few hundred years and we will have found a way to eat without using animals." Erm... that way exists already, it's called 'veganism'! *facepalm*

[sandra]

^

[earthling]

And what made it even more 'd'oh!' was the fact that she was sat next to a vegan (Benjamin Zephaniah)!

[sandra]

I wish I'd seen that. I usually watch that programme but didn't see it today!

[harpy]

I leerve Benjamin Zephaniah! What did he say?

[Festered]

I got upset today. I read 'Zest' magazine at work, and there was a pic of some TV chef (cannot remember her name) holding a cute little hen. There was an interview with her, and half way through it she gives tips on the way to make a perfect roast chicken. The hen she was holding looked so relaxed

[treehugga]

I've heard a couple of treasures lately.

First by 2 different people but same comment "Plants have feelings too" my answer was "Gee I've never heard that one before" said a tad sarcastically and "all the more reason not to eat animal products...think of the grass crops that would be saved and the forests that would survive if we didn't consume large amounts of animals."

Second was overheard at the traffic light by some young people in the street while driving away from the World Vegan Day event in Melbourne Australia "vegans are sooo unhealthy. It's because they're addicted to huge amounts of sugar because of their diet".

GIVE ME STRENGTH!!!!

[Clueless Git]

Another acquaintance, from a Buddhist perspective, always began with commonality -underscoring what both sides believed- and then posed thoughtful questions.

Soley in case it interests anyone ..

The buddha did indeed teach that gentle lessons should always be tried first. Not often quoted but he also said that, if gentle lessons fail, that one should try harsh lessons before walking away.

Buddhist PoV's vary widely but one PoV is that it is an entirely right thing to use a bit of the old 'sledgehammer' approach when dealing with very tough nuts.

[earthling]

I leerve Benjamin Zephaniah! What did he say?

He didn't say much at that point but he was very good throughout the whole bit (they were discussing the stag who was shot). He just calmly made his point that he doesn't believe killing animals is wrong for any reason, and smiled as the meat-eaters were left to flounder when they were confronted about the hypocrisy of getting upset over the shooting of one animal while happily paying for the killing of thousands. He's great - he always has his say firmly but calmly, he does himself a great credit by not getting wound up. I know I wouldn't be able to be as laid back as him.

[earthling]

This is a good (or not so good) one: my friend, also vegan, occasionally posts links to his Facebook profile about animal cruelty. EVERY TIME, a meat eater comments saying 'mmm... tasty [insert animal product here]'. Why? Every time, this is. Do they think it's funny? Seriously, what is the matter with people? Surely, even if they don't feel persuaded to give up meat right at that moment in time, they can see that my friend cares about these animals and might feel hurt by these crass comments? Give me strength.

[Vegan Beast]

This is a good (or not so good) one: my friend, also vegan, occasionally posts links to his Facebook profile about animal cruelty. EVERY TIME, a meat eater comments saying 'mmm... tasty [insert animal product here]'. Why? Every time, this is. Do they think it's funny? Seriously, what is the matter with people? Surely, even if they don't feel persuaded to give up meat right at that moment in time, they can see that my friend cares about these animals and might feel hurt by these crass comments? Give me strength.

They DO think they're funny, they just don't get it, hopefully one day soon they'll make the connection between the food, the jokes and the very real faces being abused and killed for them and then stop acting that way.

Most people are so far removed from the horror of it all that they automatically joke because it doesn't seem real to them.

[earthling]

They DO think they're funny...

Yeah, there's always a smiley next to what they've said as though we will think oh ha ha yeah that's hilarious, what sparkling wit! Ugh. I just find it depressing.

[earthling]

I'm posting a lot today - sorry. But this just happened: I shared a video from the Vegan Society on my Facebook page and NO SOONER have I posted it (it was a very good, very calm discussion of the ethics of meat eating by the aforementioned B. Zephaniah) than a defensive omni commented with a long waffly screed accusing me of being judgemental and preaching. It was so patronising, it really made me angry. He said 'being judgemental is not becoming'. Charming. Why is it okay for meat eaters to come over to a vegan's page and basically say 'I am a meat eater and I command you to shut up!' but it's not okay for me to post a video on MY page presenting, very respectfully, the arguments for not using animals?

I GIVE UP. (Not really.)

[Vegan Beast]

I'm posting a lot today - sorry. But this just happened: I shared a video from the Vegan Society on my Facebook page and NO SOONER have I posted it (it was a very good, very calm discussion of the ethics of meat eating by the aforementioned B. Zephaniah) than a defensive omni commented with a long waffly screed accusing me of being judgemental and preaching. It was so patronising, it really made me angry. He said 'being judgemental is not becoming'. Charming. Why is it okay for meat eaters to come over to a vegan's page and basically say 'I am a meat eater and I command you to shut up!' but it's not okay for me to post a video on MY page presenting, very respectfully, the arguments for not using animals?

I GIVE UP. (Not really.)

He must feel guilty for his choices.

[sandra]

Why is it okay for meat eaters to come over to a vegan's page and basically say 'I am a meat eater and I command you to shut up!' but it's not okay for me to post a video on MY page presenting, very respectfully, the arguments for not using animals?

I agree Earthling!

It's probably as Vegan Beast says.............he has a very guilty conscience and knows deep down he's in the wrong!

[ems.w]

ive only been vegan for a week, and thankfully ive had nothing but good comments (im not sure if that cos when i explain my reasons for becoming vegan people are just like 'god hear she goes, well just agree and agree with her to shut her up') but i'm not looking forward to the small minded, comments that i know i am bound to recieve. i dont feel i need to justify myself to anyone. been a budhist i try to be a peaceful loving person but im not sure if i could take some of the arrogance from most people which i know i will encounter.

[Andy_T]

Hello ems.w,

welcome to the light side!!!

You can always say that you are doing it for your health (people might understand that one better)

For more details, read the book 'The China Study' that presents very compelling evidence that a whole plant based, low-fat diet (i.e. no animal products) can most likely make a tremendous contribution to avoid most 'diseases of affluence' (heart condition, cancer, diabetes, obesity) that plague western civilizations nowadays.

Best regars,
Andy

[Clueless Git]

... been a budhist i try to be a peaceful loving person but im not sure if i could take some of the arrogance from most people which i know i will encounter.

'Lo ems and welcome onboard, as it were ..

On the buddhist thing; I strongly recommend contemplation on the bit where the buddha says that although we should teach with gentle lessons first that harsh lessons should be delivered before we walk away and leave another person to continue to suffer, and to be a cause of suffering to others, as a result of their ignorance.

I alway find that helpfull when I feel an overwhelming urge to deliver a shoe full of loving-kindness into someones goolies ...

[Clueless Git]

I agree Earthling!

It's probably as Vegan Beast says.............he has a very guilty conscience and knows deep down he's in the wrong!

Very important that is ...

The ones who give away that they know they are wrong are worth working on. It's almost like they are begging for someone to weild a sledgehammer heavy enough to crack the shell of their ignorance for them.

It's the one's who seem to understand the arguments perfectly and respect vegans for what they do but still go ahead and order the pate foi gra and veal that I find frightening ...

[sandra]

I find that sort frightening too.................there is something very cold and calculating about that sort of person.

[earthling]

^ Kind of an extreme relativism isn't it, that perspective? Everyone chooses their own morals, as though the morality of veganism and the morality of meat-eating were equivalent, and can't be judged against each other, as everything is a 'choice'. Wouldn't work with someone 'choosing' to be a human-murderer though would it?

One of my friends ate veal the other week. I was shocked. I thought that was a faux-pas even among meat eaters.

[harpy]

That depends on the veal - if it's UK-produced veal (i.e. not reared in crates) some welfare organisations such as the RSPCA say meat-eaters should consider eating it because it means that the calves aren't either killed at birth or exported to countries that use crates :-/ http://www.independent.co.uk/life-st...ca-899778.html

[earthling]

Oh ffs. That article is horrible. How the RSPCA can argue for killing baby animals is beyond me. Talk about doublethink.

[vorpal]

One of my friends ate veal the other week. I was shocked. I thought that was a faux-pas even among meat eaters.

I equate eating veal with consuming dairy products these days. Doesn't go down well I can tell you! I'd not recommend this practise to people who need alot of friends.

[earthling]

I'd not recommend this practise to people who need alot of friends.

lol Well it is true that consuming dairy is 'veal-enabling'... but I know what you mean. Thinking of my lacto-ovo veggie friends in particular!!

[harpy]

I equate eating veal with consuming dairy products these days.

I agree, it's two sides of the same coin, though veal from crated calves is probably worse than "traditionally" produced milk from the cruelty point of view.

[ems.w]

thanks andy_t and cs...
I do say for health reasons but they just give me the healthy on tufo look......i think some people think that im going to turn round and say to them actually yeh your right pass me a burger! i frustrates me...i thnk ill give that book ago (always looking for new material)
as for the buddhist in me i think ill have to work on the hashd aproach to peace...

[ems.w]

I alway find that helpfull when I feel an overwhelming urge to deliver a shoe full of loving-kindness into someones goolies ...

hahahaha this made me giggle....

[Andy_T]

i thnk ill give that book ago (always looking for new material)...

To be honest, the book is a bit dry ... it's about a medical study.

The executive summary is: If you live on a whole foods, plant based, low fat diet (80% carbohydrates, 10% protein, 10% fat), you will not get heart disease, various kinds of cancer, diabetes, obesity and a number of others (e.g. autoimmune diseases like MS). People who eat a meat-based diet have a good chance of falling prey to one of these 'diseases of affluence' at some point in their life.

Other books I consider worth reading are 'Eating animals' by jonathan Safran Foer and 'Skinny Bitch'.

Best regards,
Andy

[ems.w]

Other books I consider worth reading are 'Eating animals' by jonathan Safran Foer and 'Skinny Bitch'

Ok thanks ill add them to my christmas list

[Clueless Git]

hahahaha this made me giggle....

Glad I made you smile Ems ..

It comes from a story (joke, possibly) about a buddhist woman who gets mugged. Being confused as to how she should have handled the encounter she asks a monk what she should have done.

The monk replies "you should have taken your umbrella and, with GREAT loving kindness, beaten him soundly around the head!"

[ems.w]

The monk replies "you should have taken your umbrella and, with GREAT loving kindness, beaten him soundly around the head!"

again lol

[Back-Space]

The China Study is a slow read for the first half. It's really educational though Lots of ammunition for the next time an omni goes running their mouth.

[ems.w]

The China Study is a slow read for the first half. It's really educational though Lots of ammunition for the next time an omni goes running their mouth.

i can't seem to find this book do u possibly have a link to were i can buy it from please

[Enchantress]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/China-Study-...9076563&sr=1-1

[ems.w]

TY

[kookooforkarma]

"So, is she, like, gonna try to raise the baby vegan too!?" .... wow.