Are there any good arguments PRO eating meat at all?

[phillip888]

I've yet to have someone claiming meat is good for them explain anything in detail to me. It usually goes:

Joe: Meat is good
Me: Why
Joe: it's got protein
Me: name something without protein
Joe: Uh, meat isn't bad
Me: What about cholesterol and high fat content? Parasites and carcinogens? The pain of the animal?(if they are capable of empathy)
Joe: There's no proof of that
Me: Only scientific studies that link high cholesterol and fat intake to heart disease and kidney failure. Also it's true, the animals are killed before you eat them.
Joe: But it says here at MeatisGood.Beef.com that's not true
Me: it's funded by the beef industry, it says so on the front page
Joe: You're a vegan-nazi
Me: a what?
Joe: you're forcing your views on me!
Me: Ah, you started the whole conversation, and is discussion bad?
Joe: ah, no, PeTA sucks! I saw it on TV
Me: What does that have to do with our conversation?
Joe: (fingers in ears, eyes closed, stomping feet) LA LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU! Runs away....

[cedarblue]

oh i love that
how true, thats just how the conversations go

[julieruble]

"Only scientific studies that link high cholesterol and fat intake to heart disease"

I'd like to see these. Know where I can find them?

[ConsciousCuisine]

www.google.com
Type in "heart disease linked to fat intake or cholesterol".

Meanwhile, here's a little food for thought...

Cholesterol and heart disease
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/e...pages/9377.htm
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/e...02468.htm#skip
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/25/earlyshow/contributors/emilysenay/main619564.shtml

[julieruble]

The reason I'd like to see some of the studies Phillip mentioned is because I've done google searches and found some sites that seem very well-cited and say there's no proven link between high cholesterol and heart disease.

Thanks very much for the links ConsciousCuisine, I'll definitely look through them when I'm not at work.

[tsunami]

It is kind of obvious. Blood travels everywhere and always goes by and to the heart. With the pausing and restarting, it is easier for cholesterol and such to stick. As well as in other places of the body like the brain. Do not ned someone else say it, can think for yourself. True carnivores never getheart problems and what so, until recently with all the drugs and such.

And no one on a plantbased diet every has heart problems, unless genetical. That shows something, and that those who always meat a lot of meat and animal products, die early with heart and other bodily problems.

Anyway many studies have founded this. Just ask for any heart association or study, to give you reports and whatso.

[phillip888]

Actually I think the common perception that dietary cholesterol is a health hazard comes from multiple studies, and because of this has ben accepted as a truth by health and medical organizations. If there are studies that prove excessive cholesterol is not a health hazard they are the ones that need to be brought in to the spotlight as they are contrary to established medical knowledge.
To be well cited they must refer to real scientific studies with such findings, not just other persuasive articles or criticism without study. I've yet to find any such credible information myself using google or any other search engine. Those of course are the works I'm interested in.

[ConsciousCuisine]

Yes, I feel the same way, Philip and this is why I say what I say about meat, eggs etc. not being health-building. Cholesterol containing foods are not health building! It is pretty simple and there are studies and proof to back up these facts, so I am not sure what good, productive, valid reason anyone on this list who has been told this or read of it would have for questioning it still.

[TofuMuncher]

I've yet to have someone claiming meat is good for them explain anything in detail to me.

Yep, I've had these conversations before too, though mine often devolve back to omnivores thinking that veganism is not healthy, and then getting entrenched in their own opinions. In a class that I was teaching a few weeks back, we were talking about the consequences of what we consume, and someone brought up the environmental consequences of eating meat. I mentioned that I don't eat meat, dairy, or eggs, which began the familiar litany of:

Class: so you don't drink milk?
Me: No, only soy milk.
Class: but you eat fish, right?
Me: no. And when was the last time you saw fish growing on a tree?
Class: but how about cheese?
Me: cheese is made from milk. So, no. I don't eat cheese. Look, I don't eat anything that farts, or anything that comes from anything that farts, or anything that has a face.
Class: hmmmm. But that can't be healthy.
Me: I've not missed a day of class yet, and many of you have because you caught that cold going around. Also, how many of you ride your bikes 100 miles each weekend, and 20 miles a day like I do? Could I really do all that riding if veganism was 'unhealthy?'
Class: (perplexed) ummmh. well, it can't be healthy! (now getting hostile) We need meat! Plus, we like it. And you're weird, professor!

And that's where we usually end up. I think when smart people realize that there's no rational reason to eat meat, they end up stuck, and have to resort to mindless entrenchment.

[ConsciousCuisine]

Ethnocentrism, Cognitive Dissonace, anyone?

[gertvegan]

The "Pro-Meat Arguments?" article from Joanne Stepaniak is relevant to this thread.

[chakra]

Sitting in the park one day, prior to canvassing for a recycling campaign, a young fellow eating a ham sandwich on white bread, noticing I only brought almond butter on whole wheat sandwichs to eat, asked me why. We went through one of these conversations. While he ended puzzelled and while not as hostile as most, resolved the dialectic by stating he liked meat and couldn't imagine not eating it.

This was in Oregon. At the end of the year he disappeared to Pennsylvania to attend school - and get away from home. Two years later he showed up at my door and informed me he was a vegetarian and thanked me for helping him see the light. I thought surely it was due to intelligent people he had met at the university but no, he told me our conversations convinced him.

I had no idea. One bright light amidst the darkness. I cherish the memory and it keeps me going at other times. Like tomorrow when I go to my sisters and have to watch people glutton themselves with turkey, eggs, and ham.

I just hope there have been others.

[snaffler]

I won't beat about the bush NO!

[DoveInGreyClothing]

There's no good reason at all....from arguments I've read, the bottom lines boils down to animals taste nice, or financial losses if the meat industry goes under.... nothing worthy.

[Billy]

Short but sweet answer to original question: NO. Nuff said

[Mozbee]

Short but sweet answer to original question: NO. Nuff said

I'm with Billy - woof woof

[greenworlds]

[Quote] Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?[Quote]

No

[littleTigercub]

I think that it is so evident now that the entire Western society needs to cut down on its meat intake. The only person/company who keeps trying to persuade us otherwise is Dr Atkins, and he does this for a reason, i.e. his own financial gain!

littleTigercub

[Kumem]

Isn't he dead? Or did he just have a heart attack? Either way, great advert for eating meat lol

[Mozbee]

Yes, he is definately dead. He died very overweight too, I can't remember if it was due to a heart attack but that sounds highly likely.
The AtkinsMob tried to cover up all the evidence!

This, presumably, is why atkins diet is now known as the Fatkins Diet

[feline01]

His people claim that he slipped on some ice and hit his head. Yeah, like I can't fit into my jeans because they shrunk.

He weighed around 280lbs+ when he died and had a history of heart disease.

[Realfood Mary]

I've yet to have someone claiming meat is good for them explain anything in detail to me. It usually goes:

Joe: Meat is good
Me: Why
Joe: it's got protein
Me: name something without protein
Joe: Uh, meat isn't bad
Me: What about cholesterol and high fat content? Parasites and carcinogens? The pain of the animal?(if they are capable of empathy)
Joe: There's no proof of that
Me: Only scientific studies that link high cholesterol and fat intake to heart disease and kidney failure. Also it's true, the animals are killed before you eat them.
Joe: But it says here at MeatisGood.Beef.com that's not true
Me: it's funded by the beef industry, it says so on the front page
Joe: You're a vegan-nazi
Me: a what?
Joe: you're forcing your views on me!
Me: Ah, you started the whole conversation, and is discussion bad?
Joe: ah, no, PeTA sucks! I saw it on TV
Me: What does that have to do with our conversation?
Joe: (fingers in ears, eyes closed, stomping feet) LA LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU! Runs away....

I had one of these conversations yesterday!!! It helps that I laughed when he did the " LA LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU! " thing. In fact I hurt my belly laughing at him. Thanks!

[Mozbee]

But we know they are 'the nazis'!

[littleTigercub]

Atkins dropped dead on the street - he suffered a heart attack and weighed in at 20st

littleTigercub

[Realfood Mary]

Well that is a good reason to eat meat. Slow suicide... Silly old fart could have jumped off a bridge years ago and made the world a better place.

[cog505]

You know... I've met a lot of ex-veggies who have told me that after years of not eating meat they suddenly felt like they had more energy after eating red meat again. I would never totally disregard a person's individual experience in favour of a report or a general study. I think eating meat may be beneficial to some people in small amounts. I think more important is the fact that people don't have to eat meat. I haven't eaten meat since 11 and i've been vegan since 21. I don't eat meat because I don't have to. I think there are far more important considerations to take into account before eating other than the mere selfish.

[eve]

I can't think how meat can be good in small amounts - if it is good, why not have it in large amounts? The point surely is that vegans are living proof that humans don't have to eat animal products at all.

[cog505]

Things are only normally bad in large amounts...

think... fat, chocolate, paracetemal, americans,

[ConsciousCuisine]

Things are only normally bad in large amounts...

americans

[puffin]

You just beat me to it cc. so again

[cog505]

meaning of course they're nice in small amounts

[greenworlds]

You know... I've met a lot of ex-veggies who have told me that after years of not eating meat they suddenly felt like they had more energy after eating red meat again.

It might be a little bit like a drug heroin/cocaine etc (at the early stages of taking drugs...when thinking how good the drug is,when semi-enjoying the addiction. It's better when ex_veggies say they want to go back to being veggie.




Sophisticating meat eating doesn't make it any less savage or any more civilized.

[Plunder Bunnie]

Ok, i see no pro meat eating arguments that override my morals, from where i am right now. Throw me into a natural disaster or other situation where my life is threatened, and to be totatly honest, veganism isnt going to matter. Its for this reason im not attacking people living in impoverished contries for eating meat or drinking water that makes them sick. Its what i would do if we switched places. I doubt anyone on here would disagree with that, seeing as we have the luxory or supermarkets and social assistance programs, while others do not.

[Korn]

I think eating meat may be beneficial to some people in small amounts.

What do you mean by 'beneficial'? If you need protein, and eat something with protein, of course eating that protein source is 'beneficial' for that person ie. in a situation where the only alternative was to die, but that's not relevant in a discussion about arguments pro eating animal products, is it?

[Elis]

Ok, i see no pro meat eating arguments that override my morals, from where i am right now. Throw me into a natural disaster or other situation where my life is threatened, and to be totatly honest, veganism isnt going to matter. Its for this reason im not attacking people living in impoverished contries for eating meat or drinking water that makes them sick. Its what i would do if we switched places. I doubt anyone on here would disagree with that, seeing as we have the luxory or supermarkets and social assistance programs, while others do not.

Oddly enough, I've had several discussions with people who came from such impoverished countries and it was the whole global fairness issue that convinced them I'm not crazy. I told them that I know there are countries where meat is even cheaper than veggies and that don't have refrigerators or supermarkets. If you live in southern Sudan for isntance, you probably need to eat meat because there's little alternative.
But if you live in the industrialized countries then eating meat harms those poorer countries. Just think for a minute about the politics of water rights and how it ties into the meat industry, or how poorer countries always pay for the bulk of our environmental crimes, or even the export business in trash. Somalia for instance, actually does have some international business activity: they buy trash. Not exactly something that makes me hopeful about progress there.
So I've found that this whole North-South gap argument hasn't necesarilly turned anybody else vegan, but it has convinced a few people who recently came to Europe from these countries that it certainly makes sense for a person living here to consume as little animal products as possible. And that even though they came from a cultural background that has absolutely no understanding for veganism. But everyone understands fairness among humans. (now we just have to expand the species categories )

[Kumem]

how do i fight back when someone claims that we need fish oils to keep us in optimum condition??????

People recommend it for the Omega 3. However, you get this from other oils and supplements, without the contamination of mercury, risk of food poisoning, parasites etc. We need oil, not fish.

[John]

Here's something from a random non-vegan site:

"Many times people confuse or don't differentiate between the different omega-3 fats. ONLY ONE of the omega-3 fatty acids is essential (that is ALA), and a healthy body can make the others (DHA and EPA). Fatty fish contains the non-essential omega-3 fatty acids DHA and EPA. Since the body can make them from ALA, it follows that it is not absolutely necessary to eat fish or take fish oil supplements BUT in all cases it is necessary to get ALA since it is the ESSENTIAL omega-3 fat (best source being flax)."

http://www.homeschoolmath.net/teachi...telligence.php

[princessemma]

Why is it that argument about fish is often said to veg*ns by people who rarely or never eat fish anyway?

[treehugga]

I wouldn't care if meat offered me numerous health benefits, and I do not believe it does - why because I am so healthy without it, I still couldn't sacrifice a beings life and eat it. And GAWD, I get enough of this argument from meat eaters and am finding it distressing, although I understand others may be interested, so am going to another thread

[treehugga]

The guidelines state we are not to discuss pro meat eating. Sorry to be perdantic

[thecatspajamas1]

Class: so you don't drink milk?
Me: No, only soy milk.
Class: but you eat fish, right?
Me: no. And when was the last time you saw fish growing on a tree?
Class: but how about cheese?
Me: cheese is made from milk. So, no. I don't eat cheese. Look, I don't eat anything that farts, or anything that comes from anything that farts, or anything that has a face.
Class: hmmmm. But that can't be healthy.
Me: I've not missed a day of class yet, and many of you have because you caught that cold going around. Also, how many of you ride your bikes 100 miles each weekend, and 20 miles a day like I do? Could I really do all that riding if veganism was 'unhealthy?'
Class: (perplexed) ummmh. well, it can't be healthy! (now getting hostile) We need meat! Plus, we like it. And you're weird, professor!

You're a professor? I wish one of MY professors was vegan! What subject do you teach?

[Pilaf]

Why is it that argument about fish is often said to veg*ns by people who rarely or never eat fish anyway?

Well, see...after being approached by several "concerned" family members, I've come to the conclusion that there's actually a handbook for maintaining ignorance about the Standard American Diet indefinately. It's called "I'm comfortable in my ignorance and enjoy giving Vegans a hard time" and it's a guidebook with commonly used "Arguments".

Apparantly, after the Protein, Calcium and B-12 arguments fall flat, Fish Oils are a bit of a desperate last resort for many of the readers of this manual of Omnivores. It is the last in number only, however, as it's the most strictly preached one. My uncle, to whom I've finally convinced a Vegan diet provides adequate nutrition in all areas, STILL says that fish is "essential". Incidentally, he himself consumes very little fish and has a more or less unhealthy diet.

[greenworlds]

The pro-meat arguments annoys me as the moral issue has to out-weigh the nutritional value, not that the nutritional value of eating meat out-weighs the nutritional of a vegan diet,When eating sentient beings.

Couldn't it be argued that eating humans has nutritional benefits . I wonder what high nutrients humans have?

Just making a point.

[Korn]

Our food habits and eating preferences are governed by taste, more than anything else. We are designed, so to speak, not to eat food that we don't find attractive: which doesn't smell good, taste good or look good, and I think that's just the way it should be. There are millions of people that deep down know that they should switch to a different diet, but still don't do it. I know, because I have been there myself - several times.

In countries where there is a wide selection of vegetarian food (like India), there is also a very high percentage of vegetarians. Indian veggie food is also being eaten by a lot of non-veggies worldwide, because Indian vegetarians know a lot about taste. So I guess the main thing for a person who might consider letting go of animal products, is to help her to realize that the food we eat is at least as tasty as the food she eats.

Look at this.

Other than taste, I think habits and focus are the main reasons lots of people continue eating animal products. They may know it's not good for them, but they don't focus on it (unless they are forced to, because they get really ill, or meet some people who inspire them).

Many people don't realize that it can be fun/interesting to let go of old habits.

There's one thing I know for sure doesn't have a very positive effect, and that's to make people feel guilty about what they're doing. They may listen and change their eating habits for a while, but in the long run, there's a great chance they're only ending up getting annoyed by whoever it is who makes them feel guilty.

[Korn]

Do yuo think that what i said was making her feel guilty?

No, I was only thinking in general terms....

[Cranberry]

I just had a little talk with my mum while she was in a good mood and wouldnt jump down my throat. our conversation went as follows:

me: have you ever thought about being a vegetarian?
mum: well i was one once and i tried to get you to turn and you were like "no yuk"
me: thats not fair mum im talking about now, why arent you still?
mum: because i gess i like the taste.
me: but i dot understand, you say you care about animals so much, why would you want to contribute to their suffering?
mum: i dont know...
me: it just make me mad when i try to tell you about an incident involving an animal getting hurt and you imediently say "no i cant hear about animsl getting hurt its too cruel" when you are a contributing factor to their pain. how can you eat meat knowing the suffering they endure?
mum: well i gess it makes me feel better to know they are free range chickens and people love and talk to them and its good healthy meat.
me: no no. (shakes head and sighs)
mum: well call me a sinner
me: dont be liek that...i just hope that one day you will change your mind
mum: well maybe i will one day.


what i was wondering is how can i retort with her when she talks about free range chickens...i realised i didnt really know much about it. I didnt have an argument ready, iw as wondering what opinions were of this convo and how i could retort next time. any input would be great cheers

Order COKS free vegetarian starter guide. It has a section on the "free range myth" it may help
COK

[Cranberry]

I should mention it is a small section but still helpful. The booklet is better than PETA's but PETA does offer the free dvd which is good to have on hand.

Let us know how it works out.

[greenworlds]

[QUOTE=happycow]Do you think that what i said was making her feel guilty? I want to knwo what to say in future, i wouldnt have thought i was putting her through a guilt trip.

It's hard, when reminding people about the animals they are eating without guilt coming into play as ultimately they are guilty of it, theres no way around it. As long as they knows your intentions are meant well.

date 13.12 05
Korn I notice my last few posts are not showing up...have they been moderated or is there another problem?. incidently do you think it's fair to keep someone on moderation for life, just because they brought up a controversial matter and you and some others thought I was a trol and not being serious? I generally don't swear or insult people...do you not think it's time to take me off moderation as I don't think I'm a danger to the site...maybe you could ask other people what they think?

[Korn]

[munchymkr]

If you are willing to remain ignorant and cling to superstitious beliefs then it is possible to create great arguments for eating meat. I listen to my friends and family and coworkers justify eating meat all the time. THey want to believe that they NEED it. This need seems to stop them from looking at the facts that would challenge their choices.

I was convinced spiritually, logically and scientifically that a vegan diet was my best possible choice for quite a while before I actually decided that I was going to make a commitment to change my habits. It was just to easy to keep on doing what I had always done. My health problems were in many ways a blessing. The pain inspired me to change and it gives me a great answer to anyone who confronts me about my choices.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that it isn't the perfection of the argument that creates the desire to change in people. That perfect argument becomes important and powerful when there is some willingness to be open and listen.