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Are there any good arguments PRO eating meat at all?
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Thread: Are there any good arguments PRO eating meat at all?

  1. #1

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    I've yet to have someone claiming meat is good for them explain anything in detail to me. It usually goes:

    Joe: Meat is good
    Me: Why
    Joe: it's got protein
    Me: name something without protein
    Joe: Uh, meat isn't bad
    Me: What about cholesterol and high fat content? Parasites and carcinogens? The pain of the animal?(if they are capable of empathy)
    Joe: There's no proof of that
    Me: Only scientific studies that link high cholesterol and fat intake to heart disease and kidney failure. Also it's true, the animals are killed before you eat them.
    Joe: But it says here at MeatisGood.Beef.com that's not true
    Me: it's funded by the beef industry, it says so on the front page
    Joe: You're a vegan-nazi
    Me: a what?
    Joe: you're forcing your views on me!
    Me: Ah, you started the whole conversation, and is discussion bad?
    Joe: ah, no, PeTA sucks! I saw it on TV
    Me: What does that have to do with our conversation?
    Joe: (fingers in ears, eyes closed, stomping feet) LA LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU! Runs away....

  2. #2
    cedartree cedarblue's Avatar
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    oh i love that
    how true, thats just how the conversations go

  3. #3
    julieruble
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    "Only scientific studies that link high cholesterol and fat intake to heart disease"

    I'd like to see these. Know where I can find them?

  4. #4

  5. #5
    julieruble
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    The reason I'd like to see some of the studies Phillip mentioned is because I've done google searches and found some sites that seem very well-cited and say there's no proven link between high cholesterol and heart disease.

    Thanks very much for the links ConsciousCuisine, I'll definitely look through them when I'm not at work.

  6. #6
    Moonflower tsunami's Avatar
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    It is kind of obvious. Blood travels everywhere and always goes by and to the heart. With the pausing and restarting, it is easier for cholesterol and such to stick. As well as in other places of the body like the brain. Do not ned someone else say it, can think for yourself. True carnivores never getheart problems and what so, until recently with all the drugs and such.

    And no one on a plantbased diet every has heart problems, unless genetical. That shows something, and that those who always meat a lot of meat and animal products, die early with heart and other bodily problems.

    Anyway many studies have founded this. Just ask for any heart association or study, to give you reports and whatso.
    "None so blind as those who do not see, none so deaf as those who do not hear."

  7. #7

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    Actually I think the common perception that dietary cholesterol is a health hazard comes from multiple studies, and because of this has ben accepted as a truth by health and medical organizations. If there are studies that prove excessive cholesterol is not a health hazard they are the ones that need to be brought in to the spotlight as they are contrary to established medical knowledge.
    To be well cited they must refer to real scientific studies with such findings, not just other persuasive articles or criticism without study. I've yet to find any such credible information myself using google or any other search engine. Those of course are the works I'm interested in.

  8. #8
    ConsciousCuisine
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    Yes, I feel the same way, Philip and this is why I say what I say about meat, eggs etc. not being health-building. Cholesterol containing foods are not health building! It is pretty simple and there are studies and proof to back up these facts, so I am not sure what good, productive, valid reason anyone on this list who has been told this or read of it would have for questioning it still.

  9. #9

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    Quote phillip888
    I've yet to have someone claiming meat is good for them explain anything in detail to me.
    Yep, I've had these conversations before too, though mine often devolve back to omnivores thinking that veganism is not healthy, and then getting entrenched in their own opinions. In a class that I was teaching a few weeks back, we were talking about the consequences of what we consume, and someone brought up the environmental consequences of eating meat. I mentioned that I don't eat meat, dairy, or eggs, which began the familiar litany of:

    Class: so you don't drink milk?
    Me: No, only soy milk.
    Class: but you eat fish, right?
    Me: no. And when was the last time you saw fish growing on a tree?
    Class: but how about cheese?
    Me: cheese is made from milk. So, no. I don't eat cheese. Look, I don't eat anything that farts, or anything that comes from anything that farts, or anything that has a face.
    Class: hmmmm. But that can't be healthy.
    Me: I've not missed a day of class yet, and many of you have because you caught that cold going around. Also, how many of you ride your bikes 100 miles each weekend, and 20 miles a day like I do? Could I really do all that riding if veganism was 'unhealthy?'
    Class: (perplexed) ummmh. well, it can't be healthy! (now getting hostile) We need meat! Plus, we like it. And you're weird, professor!

    And that's where we usually end up. I think when smart people realize that there's no rational reason to eat meat, they end up stuck, and have to resort to mindless entrenchment.

  10. #10
    ConsciousCuisine
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    Ethnocentrism, Cognitive Dissonace, anyone?

  11. #11
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    Default

    The "Pro-Meat Arguments?" article from Joanne Stepaniak is relevant to this thread.

  12. #12
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    Thumbs up One of those times

    Sitting in the park one day, prior to canvassing for a recycling campaign, a young fellow eating a ham sandwich on white bread, noticing I only brought almond butter on whole wheat sandwichs to eat, asked me why. We went through one of these conversations. While he ended puzzelled and while not as hostile as most, resolved the dialectic by stating he liked meat and couldn't imagine not eating it.

    This was in Oregon. At the end of the year he disappeared to Pennsylvania to attend school - and get away from home. Two years later he showed up at my door and informed me he was a vegetarian and thanked me for helping him see the light. I thought surely it was due to intelligent people he had met at the university but no, he told me our conversations convinced him.

    I had no idea. One bright light amidst the darkness. I cherish the memory and it keeps me going at other times. Like tomorrow when I go to my sisters and have to watch people glutton themselves with turkey, eggs, and ham.

    I just hope there have been others.

  13. #13
    snaffler's Avatar
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    I won't beat about the bush NO!
    Go confidently in the direction of your dreams

  14. #14
    purrr..! DoveInGreyClothing's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?

    There's no good reason at all....from arguments I've read, the bottom lines boils down to animals taste nice, or financial losses if the meat industry goes under.... nothing worthy.
    It is a monstrous thing to do, to slay a unicorn...you have slain something pure and defenceless and you will have but a half life, a cursed life, from the moment the blood touches your lips.

  15. #15
    Billy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?

    Short but sweet answer to original question: NO. Nuff said
    please grant me the senility to forget about people I never liked anyway

  16. #16
    Mozbee
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    Default Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?

    Quote Billy
    Short but sweet answer to original question: NO. Nuff said
    I'm with Billy - woof woof

  17. #17
    greenworlds
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    Default Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?

    [Quote] Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?[Quote]

    No

  18. #18

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    Default Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?

    I think that it is so evident now that the entire Western society needs to cut down on its meat intake. The only person/company who keeps trying to persuade us otherwise is Dr Atkins, and he does this for a reason, i.e. his own financial gain!

    littleTigercub

  19. #19
    Kumem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?

    Isn't he dead? Or did he just have a heart attack? Either way, great advert for eating meat lol

  20. #20
    Mozbee
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    Default Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?

    Yes, he is definately dead. He died very overweight too, I can't remember if it was due to a heart attack but that sounds highly likely.
    The AtkinsMob tried to cover up all the evidence!

    This, presumably, is why atkins diet is now known as the Fatkins Diet

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?

    His people claim that he slipped on some ice and hit his head. Yeah, like I can't fit into my jeans because they shrunk.

    He weighed around 280lbs+ when he died and had a history of heart disease.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?

    Quote phillip888
    I've yet to have someone claiming meat is good for them explain anything in detail to me. It usually goes:

    Joe: Meat is good
    Me: Why
    Joe: it's got protein
    Me: name something without protein
    Joe: Uh, meat isn't bad
    Me: What about cholesterol and high fat content? Parasites and carcinogens? The pain of the animal?(if they are capable of empathy)
    Joe: There's no proof of that
    Me: Only scientific studies that link high cholesterol and fat intake to heart disease and kidney failure. Also it's true, the animals are killed before you eat them.
    Joe: But it says here at MeatisGood.Beef.com that's not true
    Me: it's funded by the beef industry, it says so on the front page
    Joe: You're a vegan-nazi
    Me: a what?
    Joe: you're forcing your views on me!
    Me: Ah, you started the whole conversation, and is discussion bad?
    Joe: ah, no, PeTA sucks! I saw it on TV
    Me: What does that have to do with our conversation?
    Joe: (fingers in ears, eyes closed, stomping feet) LA LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU! Runs away....
    I had one of these conversations yesterday!!! It helps that I laughed when he did the " LA LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU! " thing. In fact I hurt my belly laughing at him. Thanks!

  23. #23
    Mozbee
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    Default Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?

    But we know they are 'the nazis'!

  24. #24

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    Default Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?

    Atkins dropped dead on the street - he suffered a heart attack and weighed in at 20st

    littleTigercub

  25. #25

    Default Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?

    Well that is a good reason to eat meat. Slow suicide... Silly old fart could have jumped off a bridge years ago and made the world a better place.

  26. #26
    cog505
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    Default Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?

    You know... I've met a lot of ex-veggies who have told me that after years of not eating meat they suddenly felt like they had more energy after eating red meat again. I would never totally disregard a person's individual experience in favour of a report or a general study. I think eating meat may be beneficial to some people in small amounts. I think more important is the fact that people don't have to eat meat. I haven't eaten meat since 11 and i've been vegan since 21. I don't eat meat because I don't have to. I think there are far more important considerations to take into account before eating other than the mere selfish.

  27. #27
    I eve's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?

    I can't think how meat can be good in small amounts - if it is good, why not have it in large amounts? The point surely is that vegans are living proof that humans don't have to eat animal products at all.
    Eve

  28. #28
    cog505
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    Default Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?

    Things are only normally bad in large amounts...

    think... fat, chocolate, paracetemal, americans,

  29. #29
    ConsciousCuisine
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    Unhappy Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?

    Quote cog505
    Things are only normally bad in large amounts...

    americans

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?

    Quote ConsciousCuisine
    You just beat me to it cc. so again

  31. #31
    cog505
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    Default Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?

    meaning of course they're nice in small amounts

  32. #32
    greenworlds
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    Default Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?

    Quote cog505
    You know... I've met a lot of ex-veggies who have told me that after years of not eating meat they suddenly felt like they had more energy after eating red meat again.
    It might be a little bit like a drug heroin/cocaine etc (at the early stages of taking drugs...when thinking how good the drug is,when semi-enjoying the addiction. It's better when ex_veggies say they want to go back to being veggie.




    Sophisticating meat eating doesn't make it any less savage or any more civilized.
    Last edited by greenworlds; Oct 18th, 2005 at 12:06 PM. Reason: miswording

  33. #33
    Hippy Scum Plunder Bunnie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?

    Ok, i see no pro meat eating arguments that override my morals, from where i am right now. Throw me into a natural disaster or other situation where my life is threatened, and to be totatly honest, veganism isnt going to matter. Its for this reason im not attacking people living in impoverished contries for eating meat or drinking water that makes them sick. Its what i would do if we switched places. I doubt anyone on here would disagree with that, seeing as we have the luxory or supermarkets and social assistance programs, while others do not.
    "You'd better take care of me lord, otherwise you're gonna have me on your hands" - Hunter S. Thompson

  34. #34
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?

    Quote cog505
    I think eating meat may be beneficial to some people in small amounts.
    What do you mean by 'beneficial'? If you need protein, and eat something with protein, of course eating that protein source is 'beneficial' for that person ie. in a situation where the only alternative was to die, but that's not relevant in a discussion about arguments pro eating animal products, is it?
    Last edited by Korn; Nov 29th, 2010 at 10:02 AM.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  35. #35

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    Default Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?

    Quote Plunder Bunnie
    Ok, i see no pro meat eating arguments that override my morals, from where i am right now. Throw me into a natural disaster or other situation where my life is threatened, and to be totatly honest, veganism isnt going to matter. Its for this reason im not attacking people living in impoverished contries for eating meat or drinking water that makes them sick. Its what i would do if we switched places. I doubt anyone on here would disagree with that, seeing as we have the luxory or supermarkets and social assistance programs, while others do not.
    Oddly enough, I've had several discussions with people who came from such impoverished countries and it was the whole global fairness issue that convinced them I'm not crazy. I told them that I know there are countries where meat is even cheaper than veggies and that don't have refrigerators or supermarkets. If you live in southern Sudan for isntance, you probably need to eat meat because there's little alternative.
    But if you live in the industrialized countries then eating meat harms those poorer countries. Just think for a minute about the politics of water rights and how it ties into the meat industry, or how poorer countries always pay for the bulk of our environmental crimes, or even the export business in trash. Somalia for instance, actually does have some international business activity: they buy trash. Not exactly something that makes me hopeful about progress there.
    So I've found that this whole North-South gap argument hasn't necesarilly turned anybody else vegan, but it has convinced a few people who recently came to Europe from these countries that it certainly makes sense for a person living here to consume as little animal products as possible. And that even though they came from a cultural background that has absolutely no understanding for veganism. But everyone understands fairness among humans. (now we just have to expand the species categories )

  36. #36
    Kumem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?

    Quote happycow
    how do i fight back when someone claims that we need fish oils to keep us in optimum condition??????
    People recommend it for the Omega 3. However, you get this from other oils and supplements, without the contamination of mercury, risk of food poisoning, parasites etc. We need oil, not fish.

  37. #37
    John's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?

    Here's something from a random non-vegan site:

    "Many times people confuse or don't differentiate between the different omega-3 fats. ONLY ONE of the omega-3 fatty acids is essential (that is ALA), and a healthy body can make the others (DHA and EPA). Fatty fish contains the non-essential omega-3 fatty acids DHA and EPA. Since the body can make them from ALA, it follows that it is not absolutely necessary to eat fish or take fish oil supplements BUT in all cases it is necessary to get ALA since it is the ESSENTIAL omega-3 fat (best source being flax)."

    http://www.homeschoolmath.net/teachi...telligence.php

  38. #38
    princessemma
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    Default Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?

    Why is it that argument about fish is often said to veg*ns by people who rarely or never eat fish anyway?

  39. #39
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    Default Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?

    I wouldn't care if meat offered me numerous health benefits, and I do not believe it does - why because I am so healthy without it, I still couldn't sacrifice a beings life and eat it. And GAWD, I get enough of this argument from meat eaters and am finding it distressing, although I understand others may be interested, so am going to another thread

  40. #40
    treehugga's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?

    The guidelines state we are not to discuss pro meat eating. Sorry to be perdantic

  41. #41
    vegan pizza! thecatspajamas1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?

    Class: so you don't drink milk?
    Me: No, only soy milk.
    Class: but you eat fish, right?
    Me: no. And when was the last time you saw fish growing on a tree?
    Class: but how about cheese?
    Me: cheese is made from milk. So, no. I don't eat cheese. Look, I don't eat anything that farts, or anything that comes from anything that farts, or anything that has a face.
    Class: hmmmm. But that can't be healthy.
    Me: I've not missed a day of class yet, and many of you have because you caught that cold going around. Also, how many of you ride your bikes 100 miles each weekend, and 20 miles a day like I do? Could I really do all that riding if veganism was 'unhealthy?'
    Class: (perplexed) ummmh. well, it can't be healthy! (now getting hostile) We need meat! Plus, we like it. And you're weird, professor!
    You're a professor? I wish one of MY professors was vegan! What subject do you teach?

  42. #42
    Pilaf
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    Default Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?

    Quote princessemma
    Why is it that argument about fish is often said to veg*ns by people who rarely or never eat fish anyway?
    Well, see...after being approached by several "concerned" family members, I've come to the conclusion that there's actually a handbook for maintaining ignorance about the Standard American Diet indefinately. It's called "I'm comfortable in my ignorance and enjoy giving Vegans a hard time" and it's a guidebook with commonly used "Arguments".

    Apparantly, after the Protein, Calcium and B-12 arguments fall flat, Fish Oils are a bit of a desperate last resort for many of the readers of this manual of Omnivores. It is the last in number only, however, as it's the most strictly preached one. My uncle, to whom I've finally convinced a Vegan diet provides adequate nutrition in all areas, STILL says that fish is "essential". Incidentally, he himself consumes very little fish and has a more or less unhealthy diet.

  43. #43
    greenworlds
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    Default Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?

    The pro-meat arguments annoys me as the moral issue has to out-weigh the nutritional value, not that the nutritional value of eating meat out-weighs the nutritional of a vegan diet,When eating sentient beings.

    Couldn't it be argued that eating humans has nutritional benefits . I wonder what high nutrients humans have?

    Just making a point.

  44. #44
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?

    Our food habits and eating preferences are governed by taste, more than anything else. We are designed, so to speak, not to eat food that we don't find attractive: which doesn't smell good, taste good or look good, and I think that's just the way it should be. There are millions of people that deep down know that they should switch to a different diet, but still don't do it. I know, because I have been there myself - several times.

    In countries where there is a wide selection of vegetarian food (like India), there is also a very high percentage of vegetarians. Indian veggie food is also being eaten by a lot of non-veggies worldwide, because Indian vegetarians know a lot about taste. So I guess the main thing for a person who might consider letting go of animal products, is to help her to realize that the food we eat is at least as tasty as the food she eats.

    Look at this.

    Other than taste, I think habits and focus are the main reasons lots of people continue eating animal products. They may know it's not good for them, but they don't focus on it (unless they are forced to, because they get really ill, or meet some people who inspire them).

    Many people don't realize that it can be fun/interesting to let go of old habits.

    There's one thing I know for sure doesn't have a very positive effect, and that's to make people feel guilty about what they're doing. They may listen and change their eating habits for a while, but in the long run, there's a great chance they're only ending up getting annoyed by whoever it is who makes them feel guilty.

  45. #45
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?

    Quote happycow
    Do yuo think that what i said was making her feel guilty?
    No, I was only thinking in general terms....

  46. #46

    Default Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?

    Quote happycow
    I just had a little talk with my mum while she was in a good mood and wouldnt jump down my throat. our conversation went as follows:

    me: have you ever thought about being a vegetarian?
    mum: well i was one once and i tried to get you to turn and you were like "no yuk"
    me: thats not fair mum im talking about now, why arent you still?
    mum: because i gess i like the taste.
    me: but i dot understand, you say you care about animals so much, why would you want to contribute to their suffering?
    mum: i dont know...
    me: it just make me mad when i try to tell you about an incident involving an animal getting hurt and you imediently say "no i cant hear about animsl getting hurt its too cruel" when you are a contributing factor to their pain. how can you eat meat knowing the suffering they endure?
    mum: well i gess it makes me feel better to know they are free range chickens and people love and talk to them and its good healthy meat.
    me: no no. (shakes head and sighs)
    mum: well call me a sinner
    me: dont be liek that...i just hope that one day you will change your mind
    mum: well maybe i will one day.


    what i was wondering is how can i retort with her when she talks about free range chickens...i realised i didnt really know much about it. I didnt have an argument ready, iw as wondering what opinions were of this convo and how i could retort next time. any input would be great cheers


    Order COKS free vegetarian starter guide. It has a section on the "free range myth" it may help
    COK
    "Life is never boring, but some people choose to be bored. "

    Wayne Dyer:D

  47. #47

    Default Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?

    I should mention it is a small section but still helpful. The booklet is better than PETA's but PETA does offer the free dvd which is good to have on hand.

    Let us know how it works out.
    "Life is never boring, but some people choose to be bored. "

    Wayne Dyer:D

  48. #48
    greenworlds
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    Default Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?

    [QUOTE=happycow]Do you think that what i said was making her feel guilty? I want to knwo what to say in future, i wouldnt have thought i was putting her through a guilt trip.

    It's hard, when reminding people about the animals they are eating without guilt coming into play as ultimately they are guilty of it, theres no way around it. As long as they knows your intentions are meant well.

    date 13.12 05
    Korn I notice my last few posts are not showing up...have they been moderated or is there another problem?. incidently do you think it's fair to keep someone on moderation for life, just because they brought up a controversial matter and you and some others thought I was a trol and not being serious? I generally don't swear or insult people...do you not think it's time to take me off moderation as I don't think I'm a danger to the site...maybe you could ask other people what they think?

  49. #49
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?


  50. #50
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    Default Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?

    If you are willing to remain ignorant and cling to superstitious beliefs then it is possible to create great arguments for eating meat. I listen to my friends and family and coworkers justify eating meat all the time. THey want to believe that they NEED it. This need seems to stop them from looking at the facts that would challenge their choices.

    I was convinced spiritually, logically and scientifically that a vegan diet was my best possible choice for quite a while before I actually decided that I was going to make a commitment to change my habits. It was just to easy to keep on doing what I had always done. My health problems were in many ways a blessing. The pain inspired me to change and it gives me a great answer to anyone who confronts me about my choices.

    I guess the point I'm trying to make is that it isn't the perfection of the argument that creates the desire to change in people. That perfect argument becomes important and powerful when there is some willingness to be open and listen.

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