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Thread: Do you drink? Alcohol that is...

  1. #1

    Default Do you drink? Alcohol that is...

    I for one think Alcohol is pointless. Does it not disturb anyone that you're drinking something flamable? Yuck! Your body is better off without it.
    Last edited by flutterby; Feb 5th, 2006 at 11:11 AM. Reason: The Vegan Alcohol thread is http://veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105

  2. #2
    Wanda's Avatar
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    Don't drink. Never have and never will.
    Alcohol that is.

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    Smile veganism or not, alcohol isn't healthy

    I've seen this debate and discussion so many times with other vegetarians and vegans and I've seen it with the issue of cosmetics and beauty supplies. For some reason many vegans are more concerned with the ethics and conscience of using a product that contains an animal by-product and may have been tested on an animal rather than how healthy the item is. I personally find that to be sad. I'm not going to get into the logistics and analyzing to death whether beer or wine or a brush has an animal by-product in it. I will this though. Granted, I'm speaking for myself and to each his/her own, but veganism was neither started nor established for the mere purpose of protecting and caring for animals. As I stated in why I'm vegan, it's for the betterment of all and health and the environment should never be ignored. Alcohol is unhealthy, toxic and needless. I've never taken even a sip of alcohol and don't intend to ever do so. I so no reason or need for it and I'm a very healthy vegan who doesn't have to worry about her arteries. As for the cosmetics, my simple criteria is simple and straightforward. Your best bet is to simply use those products that are 100% botanical and pure and are made by companies, ie. Aveda, Aubrey, and Jason Cosmetics that really care and put the environment and eco-systems first! If in doubt do without! It's not just a rule for kosher/kashruth! Ok, I'm done with my schpeel and I"m off my podium tyrade!lol Thanks for listening...*kisses*

    Peace and Hugs,
    Earthwriter girl
    Join in the cause and endeavor to educate the public about the dangers of exposing children to cigarette smoke and help protect the health of children worldwide.

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    Cool

    I see your point, Earthwriter. But one could argue that limited amounts of alcohol could actually be good for you (which isn't to say that's necessarily true - the meat industry would argue that limited amounts of red meat are good for you). For me at least, the more important issue is the social aspect of alcohol. Being a vegan puts you in a rather awkward position in the society (if you haven't noticed, you're very lucky), and sometimes, you just don't want to add to that. For example, my father is turning 50 this summer, and I know my family isn't going to be very happy when I refuse to have even a little bit of wine for the occasion, on top of not tasting the cake. So I was hoping to get some vegan wine; and failed miserably... But other than such occasions, I don't really care one way or the other. Coming up with new kinds of sandwiches is certainly more important to me than finding a substitute for the three to four glasses of wine that I normally have each year.

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    Quote Earthwriter
    I've seen this debate and discussion so many times with other vegetarians and vegans and I've seen it with the issue of cosmetics and beauty supplies. For some reason many vegans are more concerned with the ethics and conscience of using a product that contains an animal by-product and may have been tested on an animal rather than how healthy the item is.
    I very much agree with you!
    I personally am not jumping for joy when a new list of vegan junk food comes out! I don't understand why everybody always gets so exited by crap that happens to be vegan.

    This said, I also understand the power of being able to attract new people to the vegan diet by making the switch easier for them. Most people are just so overwhelmed by everything they have to scratch out of their diet, that the availability of some vegan junk food can just ease the pain a bit. I just hope they will one day snap out of it.

    Quote Earthwriter
    I've never taken even a sip of alcohol and don't intend to ever do so.
    Same here.

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    I find it hard to listen to people who imply that it is wrong(dont jump down my throats on that point.You know what i mean) to drink alcohol,when they,by their own admission,have "never even had a sip" of the stuff in their lives.

    Everyone is entitled to their view,but it doesnt carry much strength when that opinion is not from some sort of experience.If an alcoholic,or a drink driver tells me that alcohol is wrong,then i will listen to them. But not someone with no first hand knowledge of the pleasures and negative points of alcohol.

    Also,the reason that i am 80% vegan now(will be 100% in the next month or so) is that i want to do all i can to eliminate cruelty to animals. The health issue doesnt even come into it for me. Alcohol is my only "vice" and i have no intention of dropping it.

    Please,i dont want an argument on this subject,and i am sorry if this post seems as if i am "having a go" at anyone,because i am not! The last think i want to do is argue with a group of people who,for the most part,share the same views as me on the most important subject there is to me.

    Cheers

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    Also,the reason that i am 80% vegan now(will be 100% in the next month or so) is that i want to do all i can to eliminate cruelty to animals. The health issue doesnt even come into it for me. Alcohol is my only "vice" and i have no intention of dropping it
    I agree with this except that I don't see it as a vice even in inverted commas Getting drunk and smashing the place up is a vice in my book, but a glass of wine with dinner is not. Nor would I put a decent, and vegan, wine in the junk category by any means.

    Now that my doctor has told me it's good for my HDL levels to drink a little wine I'm certainly not giving it up But I wouldn't dream of urging anyone else to have it if they didn't want to of course.

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    Quote St George
    I find it hard to listen to people who imply that it is wrong(dont jump down my throats on that point.You know what i mean) to drink alcohol,when they,by their own admission,have "never even had a sip" of the stuff in their lives.
    I am personally not against other people drinking.
    I just don't like alcohol and don't like to be around people that drink.

    However, I don't think you have to have experienced something to be against it. I could give a long list of examples, but I think it's clear what I mean.

  9. #9
    ConsciousCuisine
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    Wine has been used medicinally throughout time. Jesus drank wine! (tongue in cheek but true nontheless...)

    In small, therapeutic amounts it can have benefits. It is very warming and in TCM it is believed to support cardiovascular health, to tonify health and build blood, beneficial to circulation in general and aids in digestion, amongst other things. We're talking 2-4 ounces of pure, vegan, organic red wine. I know a few people who limit themselves to this amount but not many...

    I know that as I have become more and more balanced in health, I have little interest in alcohol. I drink as I have described above- organic, vegan red wine in small amounts, usually right before my moon cycle to help build my blood. It is very nourishing used in this way.

    I have seen alcohol in excess kill and damage many loved ones and others. As a vegan, I seek to be the healthiest I can in every way. Alcohol simply is not a large part of this plan, so I use it as a "tonic" for health reasons.

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    Beer is a gift from the gods. Some pathetic people might not be able to drink without turning into monsters and they give alcohol a bad name. Personally I don't trust anyone who never drinks. It's as if he or she is hiding some inner, dark secret.

    And I have observed that heavy drinkers live the longest.

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    Me thinks you may be on a wind up,john

    But,seriously,drinking in moderation is fine. As you say,drunks give alcohol a bad name,but a nice,quiet drink is one of my great pleasures.One i dont apologise for.

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    Quote ConsciousCuisine
    Jesus drank wine!

    yeah but wouldn't you, if you could make it out of water?! the jammy git!

  13. #13

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    Quote John
    Personally I don't trust anyone who never drinks.
    It's as if he or she is hiding some inner, dark secret.
    This used to be a common myth in my old home town. The few people that almost never got drunk was considered uptight by the others, in a weird variation over the holier-than-thou theme.

    Lots of drinkers get really "honest" when drunk, share all their family problems and tell you how great person you are - maybe this is why they consider others to be reserved. In my experience, (if we exclude the people who don't drink because they are afraid of it) sober non-drinkers behave a lot more like drinkers do when they are drunk than sober non-drinkers do.

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    I really have nothing against non-drinkers. I respect their self-discipline. One of the five precepts of Buddhism (the least important one, in existence because drinking compromises the other four) is not to drink.

    It's just that believe it or not, America is an extremely puritanical country. There are temperance groups still in existence (often under the cover of front-organizations) who have the goal of making alcohol illegal. Just look at the stupidity of an age-21 minimum.

    It just bothers me when I imagine that I feel the wind of self-righteousness.

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    Quote John
    I really have nothing against non-drinkers. I respect their self-discipline.
    My non-drinking has nothing to do with self-discipline.
    You can't miss what you have never tasted.
    I also have never tasted any coffee, sigarettes, drugs and other stuff.
    I just dislike anything that can cause dependencies in my life.

  16. #16

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    I totally agree with Vegan Peace,like me, I have never tasted any form of Alcohol. No beer, No wine.

    Though I was used to with Soft drinks before I was Vegan , I am not sure if it did contain any alcohol either.

    Beside, I have never tasted Meat,Chicken,Fish,Eggs,Sea foods.

    And I don't have any kind of crave for these kind of stuffs.

    Manish Jain

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    Frank Lucas
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    Quote Wanda
    My non-drinking has nothing to do with self-discipline.
    You can't miss what you have never tasted.
    I also have never tasted any coffee, sigarettes, drugs and other stuff.
    I just dislike anything that can cause dependencies in my life.
    I totally agree
    Aloha

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    Quote Frank Lucas
    People are starving etc while people are geting drunk.
    People are starving while others are playing basketball, watching a movie, etc. That argument doesn't work for me. I know I could do more, but I don't want to be made to feel guilty about enjoying some of my free time, however I choose as long as I'm not disturbing anyone else.

    I don't view alcohol any differently as any other beverage, except that it should be used in moderation. If someone has never had alcohol or no longer drinks, that's great for them. Personally, I enjoy going out for cocktails with friends, having a glass of wine with my meal, and sipping a glass of warm brandy on a cold Wisconsin winter night. To each is own I guess.

  19. #19
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    I dislike the 'people/animals are dying while we're getting drunk' argument - everyone who is actively trying to live in a more 'conscious' state deserves some relaxation now and then!
    However, I decided within the last year or so to abstain from drinking as I make a bad 'drunk', don't know when to stop, and also it makes me very depressed the following day.

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    Congratulations wuggy! I applaud you for being conscious enough about yourself to know what's best for you!

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    Yeah, unfortunately it took me years of getting drunk and depressed to realise it wasn't working for me!

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    Default Re: veganism or not, alcohol isn't healthy

    Quote Earthwriter
    Your best bet is to simply use those products that are 100% botanical and pure and are made by companies, ie. Aveda, Aubrey, and Jason Cosmetics that really care and put the environment and eco-systems first!
    Totally disagree with this. They are all full of synthetics and not environmentally-friendly. Aubrey is the worst; this is a company that regularly violates FDA labelling standards by including undisclosed (completely synthetic) ingredients and by using creative, non-approved ingredient names to disguise the synthetic nature. Violation warnings are in the public domain at the FDA website (search on Aubrey). I would not support this company.

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    Default Re: veganism or not, alcohol isn't healthy

    This has nothing to do with alcohol--but maybe you could be more specific. I just looked on the FDA website and the only warning letter to Aubrey from November 1996 to June 2005 that I could find was concerning product claims, like "this wards off acne," which would put the products into the category of drugs.

    Closer to the topic was a copy of a petition which stated that The Breast Cancer Fund's Campaign for Safe Cosmetics had already won agreement from Aubrey not to use certain dangerous chemicals.

    Maybe I'm missing something.

  24. #24
    Pilaf
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    I avoid alcohol. I'm Straight Edge and will always be so. There are many, many reasons to avoid alcohol. If you have to choose one reason to give the stuff up, however, make it the humanitarian reason. When you buy alcohol you're supporting a system of hate and suffering every bit as bad as the meat industry. When anyone buys alcohol, even "responsible drinkers" who drink in their own homes or never drive drunk, those people are pouring money into the alcohol industry and helping support the booze manufacturors who sell the stuff. Your money helps keep the companies in business, and they sell the stuff to other people..sometimes minors. These people drink and drive, drink too much and overdose, drink and get into lethal fights..etc. So basically, for me, not drinking is as much for my own good health as for the human race as a whole. I won't support a system of death and hatred. That's what Straight Edge is about at its most essential roots. Positive social reform.

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    Default Re: Alcohol and veganism

    I don't judge you for your straight edge lifestyle, but I don't like the implication that people who drink are immoral for the reasons you mentioned. You say it is supporting a system of hate and suffering every bit as bad as the meat industry. People who choose to drink responsibly like me, are not responsible for irresponsible people who sell to minors, people who drink drive, fight etc. Yes the money keeps people in business, but we don't advocate those things that can happen. I do not think it is comparable with the meat industry in any shape or form.
    I enjoy a drink, a beer, a glass of wine, a vodka; in fact I love to get pissed. I don't want to suffer judgement for the small percentage of people that are irresponsible. I respect your view to abstain, but please don't imply that choosing to drink means consciously supporting a business as abhorrent as the meat industry.

    Liz

  26. #26
    Pilaf
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    Do you deny that you're helping support the alcohol industry, and that others who purchase from them die? It's just a fact.

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    Default Re: Alcohol and veganism

    Obviously buying alcohol supports the industry, but I am not responsible for the choices that other people make.
    People make their own decisions about what they choose to do. If alcohol were illegal it would underground and create more problems.
    Where do you shop? I don't say that to start an argument, but it's a valid comparison. If you shop in a place that sells meat products, are you not adding money to that business and therefore perpetuating the belief that it is okay to eat animal products.
    I may be wrong, you may only go to places that are purely vegan, but most people don't have that luxury. I am going off track here (blame the wine!). My point, as I mentioned earlier, is that I like drinking and I am not responsible for the decisions that other people choose to make.

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Alcohol and veganism

    i agree. i love margaritas! but that doesnt mean im responsible for other peoples choices either. if you choose to not drink than thats great, but i like to have a few every now and then.
    "you dont have to be tall to see the moon" - african proverb

  29. #29
    Pilaf
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    Well...I won't say any more..but to me it doesn't seem any different from those people who refuse to give up meat for their own selfish reasons. I simply cannot see the difference in my mind, at all.

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    Default Re: Alcohol and veganism

    The difference is, no-one (human or animal) has to die for ME to have an alcoholic drink. This may not be true for others (ie those who abuse it, drink drive etc), but it's true for me.

    Whereas if I ate meat/dairy...well, hopefully you see my point...

    I believe in PERSONAL responsibility...now, mind your personal business - and stop trying to guilt people who are living or attempting their best to live cruelty free lives into following your little ethics set by using false analogies!

  31. #31

    Default Re: Alcohol and veganism

    If any one wanna read/see effects of Alcohol, must know conditions here in the developing country likeIndia and others as well too.

    -many people do not work, they just live for it.
    -many people do die due to damage liver and other organs.
    -many people do rape while they are drunk.
    -many people do murder while they are drunk.
    -most drunkers die to road accident.
    -many kids have lost their drunker father.
    -many people beat their spouse for money they need for buying it.
    -many kids are not given food as their father( usually women drunkers are rare here) spent money in drink only.
    -Robbery,dacoits are done by drunkers.

    Still, we consume alcohol ?

    I have never touched it in my life.When I was 25 and while returning from Hongkong, there was one fellow with us and he requested to buy Alcohol from duty free shop at air port on his behalf.But, I strongly refused that gentleman for this action.

    Still, I dunno, but it is absolutely a big abuse in the countries like India where wheather is warm almost round the year.

    Regards!

    Manish

  32. #32
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    Default Re: Alcohol and veganism

    Quote Pilaf
    Well...I won't say any more..but to me it doesn't seem any different from those people who refuse to give up meat for their own selfish reasons. I simply cannot see the difference in my mind, at all.
    I find your attitude completely naive and as Bittersweet said, that is a terrible analogy. I fact it's pretty insulting. If you cannot see the difference the go to a slaughter house and then go to a pub.

  33. #33
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    Default Re: Alcohol and veganism

    Instead of going to the pub, it's maybe better to go to a hospital and visit victims of drunk driving.

  34. #34
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    Default Re: Alcohol and veganism

    I assume the people who think the alcohol industry should be boycotted also boycott all motorised transport, since that also kills?

    Almost anything can kill if used sufficiently irresponsibly, but to my mind that's not a reason to bar everyone from using it. Educating people in its appropriate use seems a more logical response.

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    Default Re: Alcohol and veganism

    I think the point those of us who consume alcohol are making is that we are responsible for our own actions - not those of others...not the people who are stupid enough to drink and drive, not those depressed enough to drink their lives away...just our own.

    They are humans in a human created society, and capable of making their own decisions, tragic though those may be in many cases. We make our own choices (hopefully) responsibly.

    I think less drivers and less pressure to own/use cars would help the drink driving problem more than banning drinking - after all, look what happened when the United States tried prohibition!

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    Default Re: Alcohol and veganism

    Oh, and just as a side note, I think I see another UK/US attitude thing happening...

  37. #37
    Melina
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    I personally cannot see why anyone who claims to be health-conscious would pour poison down their throats.

  38. #38
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    Default Re: Alcohol and veganism

    My GP has recommended I have the odd glass of wine and I'm happy to comply.

    However, I'm not especially health conscious - I'm vegan on ethical grounds and only aspire to be as healthy as a comparable omnivore (for PR reasons!), so until someone finds an adverse interaction between veganism and alcohol consumption, I'm OK with it.

  39. #39
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    Default Re: Alcohol and veganism

    Quote Melina
    I personally cannot see why anyone who claims to be health-conscious would pour poison down their throats.
    Well I can't speak for others, but I have never made any claims to be health conscious. I choose to not eat animal products. If being vegan meant also not drinking, then I think it would put a lot of people off.

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    Default Re: Alcohol and veganism

    Indeed! Being able to point out the vast amount of not-quite-so-healthy food and drink suitable for vegans has helped me convince several omnivores to cut down their animal intakes and accept my stance.

    We're not all in this for ourselves - and again, as stated above, current medical research actually suggests that a moderate amount of alcohol can be good for you, even if you are only in it for yourself.

    Oh, and anything that tastes of anything is a poison to some degree...you going to stop eating and drinking ANYTHING but distilled water now?

    That's just the way being forced to ingest our energy via chemicals (ie food) works people!

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    Angry Re: Alcohol and veganism

    Another option would be going to orphanages to see all those poor children there. All destroyed childhoods because of alchohol! But, of course, drinking is so cool. Are the consequences so cool as well?

  42. #42
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    Default Re: Alcohol and veganism

    i dont have consequences from drinking, once a month, therefor i continue to do it
    "you dont have to be tall to see the moon" - african proverb

  43. #43
    sugarmouse
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    i dont eat animal products..but i continue to get drunk regularly..that is not against my morals.lol

  44. #44
    Melina
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    For an article regarding moderate alcohol consumption and health benefits, go here:

    http://www.benbest.com/health/alcohol.html

    The bottom line is that alcohol is an addictive drug which has a detrimental effect on the body. Most of the claimed benefits are associated with reducing cardiovascular disease. The incentives for wishful thinking are very high and study designs are often poor. There are other, more healthy ways to acheive the same "benefits". "Ethanol (and/or acetaldehyde) is so damaging to so many body organs, organelles and molecules -- most troublingly the brain -- that grasping at one possible benefit while ignoring all of the harms sounds suspiciously like the rationalizations of an addict. Or the rationalizations of an entire addicted society. Whatever the reputed health benefits of ethanol, the health costs (known and unknown) are vastly greater. By my values, the possibility of brain damage makes any mild cardiovascular benefit pale by comparison -- especially when there are so many other ways to improve cardiovascular health."

  45. #45
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    Default Re: Alcohol and veganism

    I don't think things are as black and white as they are being painted here. I'm not keen on drunkenness myself (although I don't see it as a vegan issue), but I'll have a glass of wine with a meal, which doesn't make me drunk. While I don't like the idea of killing insects unnecessarily, I sometimes put anti-flea products on my cats. And I don't agree with everything I see written on this forum, but I still think it's a good forum with nice people on it.

    It's human nature - you aren't going to find two humans who agree about everything, or even one human who is completely consistent

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    Default Re: Alcohol and veganism

    I think this thread has wandered a long way from the original intention, which was to share information about which alcohol is vegan for those of us who choose to consume it. And now it's been hijacked by someone who isn't even Vegan by their own admission?....sigh...

    To be "vegan" for HEALTH reasons - wow that's just insane! There are so many more important things to worry about in this world than the state of one human body, just because it's your own! I mean, the health benefits of being vegan are a nice bonus, but in my eyes that's just a kind of "natural justice" reward for choosing a better way to live, not the whole point!

    to continue off topic though, I'm fighting a holding action with ants at the moment (putting down essential oils etc to discourage them and so forth) - and I'm the one who feel guilty if they come in and drown themselves in a glass left on the floor overnight or something...touch wood, I think they've gotten the idea they're not welcome though - haven't seen any for a couple of weeks...

  47. #47
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    Default Re: Alcohol and veganism

    I moved the last few posts about semi-veganism over here:
    http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4563
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  48. #48
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    Default Re: Alcohol and veganism

    Quote bittersweet
    To be "vegan" for HEALTH reasons - wow that's just insane! There are so many more important things to worry about in this world than the state of one human body, just because it's your own!
    Many people start off following a vegan diet purely for health reasons, then find that they become concerned about animal testing, factory farming, environmentalism etc, etc, etc as a natural progression. Just because it's the opposite way around from how others who converted to veganism from an ethical standpoint arrived here doesn't make it insane.

    Neither in my book is it anywhere near approaching insane to be concerned about ones own health/body 'just because it's my own'. My health does concern me because on the occassions that I am debilitated due to ill health I cannot function properly - which means I can't look after my children, or the animals who are under my care, as fully and completely as I do when I am 100% healthy and mobile. So apologies Bittersweet, but I find it entirely sane to be concerned about the health of this one body, my body, because it's the only one I've got and I'd like it to be as strong as possible, as healthy as possible for as long as is possible.

    Back on topic (or off it, whichever the case may be) I don't drink Alcohol either, I used to but have gradually come to loathe not only the effect it has on my senses and my body but also how it tastes, basically I think it tastes like c**p, artificial, chemically, bitter, sour, just plain bleurghhhh!!!!!
    Blackadder: Baldrick, have you no idea what irony is?
    Baldrick: Yes, it's like goldy and bronzy only it's made out of iron.

  49. #49
    Kevster
    Guest

    Default Re: Alcohol and veganism

    Isn't this a vegan and alcohol thread? I am not so concerned about whether it is healthy, in my view it is not. I gave up alcohol for a few years and now drink again. But not a great deal.

    Anyhow, as long as it is vegan, preferably certified, and organic then i do have the odd drink. So anyone wanting to debate the health issues can probably go to the health section of this forum. As for me, i'm currently enjoying a glass of Sam Smiths orgainc ale. Pretty good stuff.

  50. #50
    Kevster
    Guest

    Default Re: Alcohol and veganism

    Spelling mistake intended of course

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