Results 1 to 41 of 41

Thread: Ingredients v activism

  1. #1
    Glen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    West Midlands, UK
    Posts
    165

    Default Ingredients v activism

    I have just read an article by this name in the latest copy of 'The Vegan' and, although it only scratches the surface of the issue, I found it gave me food for thought.

    Essentially the article asserts that we probably do more harm than good by adopting such a 'hard-line' approach to our Veganism. For instance, by questioning waiters at restaurants when with friends, a negative image of Veganism is conveyed, showing it as 'too difficult' and therefore putting people off.

    Of course, the other side of the coin is that by lessening our devotion to such a 'strict' practice, we may devalue the whole meaning of the Vegan philosiphy, to the point where it is seen as hypocritical and where people do not take it seriously.

    What do you think? Could we lessen the suffering of animals and promote a more compassionate way of living by slightly letting down our guard at appropriate times? Would this help us reach a stage where 'full' Veganism is more feasible?

  2. #2
    baffled harpy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    6,655

    Default Re: Ingredients v Activism

    Quote Glen
    Essentially the article asserts that we probably do more harm than good by adopting such a 'hard-line' approach to our Veganism. For instance, by questioning waiters at restaurants when with friends, a negative image of Veganism is conveyed, showing it as 'too difficult' and therefore putting people off.
    Yes, I read that too. I think he has a point about "social eating" - it's arguably better PR to show friends etc that it's easy to eat a vegan-ish diet (though it's handy to have some people who are more militant working behind the scenes).

    I think I thought he rather overstated some of the difficulties of being vegan in other contexts (e.g. label reading) but I can't remember the details now.

  3. #3

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    /
    Posts
    397

    Default Re: Ingredients v Activism

    sounds like the PETA approach to veganism.

  4. #4
    ConsciousCuisine
    Guest

    Default Re: Ingredients v Activism

    Quote Glen
    I have just read an article by this name in the latest copy of 'The Vegan' and, although it only scratches the surface of the issue, I found it gave me food for thought.

    Essentially the article asserts that we probably do more harm than good by adopting such a 'hard-line' approach to our Veganism. For instance, by questioning waiters at restaurants when with friends, a negative image of Veganism is conveyed, showing it as 'too difficult' and therefore putting people off.

    Of course, the other side of the coin is that by lessening our devotion to such a 'strict' practice, we may devalue the whole meaning of the Vegan philosiphy, to the point where it is seen as hypocritical and where people do not take it seriously.

    What do you think? Could we lessen the suffering of animals and promote a more compassionate way of living by slightly letting down our guard at appropriate times? Would this help us reach a stage where 'full' Veganism is more feasible?
    In a free society, it is never appropriate to compromise one's values.

    People will bitch and moan and find any excuse to avoid doing the right thing...we are a nation of lazy, thoughtless, selfish, self-absorbed whiners who will stop at nothing to indulge our insatiable, greedy appetites for more power, more convinience and more "comfort" and we want it YESTERDAY, so it doesn't serve us as vegans to bow to the powers that be and "fake it" to blend in or make veganism look "easy" just to appease/deceive the masses.

  5. #5
    Seaside
    Guest

    Default Re: Ingredients v Activism

    Quote Glen
    Essentially the article asserts that we probably do more harm than good by adopting such a 'hard-line' approach to our Veganism. For instance, by questioning waiters at restaurants when with friends, a negative image of Veganism is conveyed, showing it as 'too difficult' and therefore putting people off.
    This to me is a common complaint made by omnis, and just another of their favorite excuses for why they are not vegan too. I truly feel that no vegan should be held responsible for the bad impression others form of veganism. I strive to maintain the strongest commitment I can to my ethics, which is the only impression I am concerned with making. When others choose to see this in a bad light, that is their mistake, and it is often a willful, deliberate mistake, designed to deflect attention away from their own massive shortcomings, and on to my perceived ones.

    That being said, I don't go to many restaurants, and the ones I do go to can cater to my needs without my having to make a public scene. I am a very low-key person, and do not wish to attract undue attention. But veganism isn't what should be blamed when vegans do want to attract attention.

  6. #6
    Glen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    West Midlands, UK
    Posts
    165

    Default Re: Ingredients v Activism

    I personally would find it pretty hard to compromise, but never the less, I think the author has a point. Maybe keeping the 'bad' things like that are best kept low key, but make a point of showing all the great things about Veganism.

  7. #7
    Pilaf
    Guest

    Default Re: Ingredients v Activism

    Quote ConsciousCuisine
    In a free society, it is never appropriate to compromise one's values.

    People will bitch and moan and find any excuse to avoid doing the right thing...we are a nation of lazy, thoughtless, selfish, self-absorbed whiners who will stop at nothing to indulge our insatiable, greedy appetites for more power, more convinience and more "comfort" and we want it YESTERDAY, so it doesn't serve us as vegans to bow to the powers that be and "fake it" to blend in or make veganism look "easy" just to appease/deceive the masses.
    I bow in reverence to your convictions.


    She's absolutely right..ya know what? Screw convenience and screw the image. People need to wake up and see things for what they are. Trying to sugar coat your values to make them easier for others to swallow is lame. I ain't never been shy about what I think is right, and I ain't never been afraid to turn people off to me. I always do what I think is best. If people won't even give it a shot... screw 'em. They're not the kind of people who are gonna build a new world with me. I'll find better friends.

  8. #8
    baffled harpy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    6,655

    Default Re: Ingredients v Activism

    Quote Glen
    I personally would find it pretty hard to compromise, but never the less, I think the author has a point. Maybe keeping the 'bad' things like that are best kept low key, but make a point of showing all the great things about Veganism.
    That's what I try to do. I don't think one even needs to compromise all that much. Re social meals in restaurants, after my first few years as a vegan, I had had enough of confrontations about ingredients (I'm fine with asking a few questions). Instead, depending on the situation, I usually try to steer the people I'm eating with in the direction of a place that I know does vegan food, phone to arrange something in advance, or else (if all else fails) just have a drink and eat before or afterwards.

  9. #9
    gertvegan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bristol, SW England
    Posts
    1,912

    Default Re: Ingredients v Activism

    Quote Glen
    I have just read an article by this name in the latest copy of 'The Vegan' and, although it only scratches the surface of the issue, I found it gave me food for thought.
    Isn't that the article in the winter 2005 edition? There's a new mag out this week.

    The Ingredients v Activism article can be viewed on the Satya website here.

  10. #10
    Glen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    West Midlands, UK
    Posts
    165

    Default Re: Ingredients v Activism

    Yeah, this is the sort of 'compromise' that was more in my mind. It is all very well saying 'screw the system' etc. But there is little point in sticking to that philosiphy if it does no good.

    Yes Gert, just got the new one through the post this morning!

  11. #11
    ♥♥♥ Tigerlily's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Atlantic Canada
    Posts
    3,920

    Default Re: Ingredients v Activism

    My two cents (I agree with Pilaf and CC!): Some people it's "okay" to have just a little bit of dairy once in a while or a bite of egg every now and then, and still be a vegan as it does no harm...my opinion is that the cows or the hens didn't suffer only a "teeny bit" for your "teeny bit" of cheese, etc.
    Peace, love, and happiness.

  12. #12
    DancingWillow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    648

    Default Re: Ingredients v Activism

    Quote ConsciousCuisine
    In a free society, it is never appropriate to compromise one's values.

    People will bitch and moan and find any excuse to avoid doing the right thing...we are a nation of lazy, thoughtless, selfish, self-absorbed whiners who will stop at nothing to indulge our insatiable, greedy appetites for more power, more convinience and more "comfort" and we want it YESTERDAY, so it doesn't serve us as vegans to bow to the powers that be and "fake it" to blend in or make veganism look "easy" just to appease/deceive the masses.
    I agree CC, but I also don't feel that the animals should suffer because of the majority's laziness, thoughtlessness, and selfishness.

    I also don't think that vegans need to compromise their standards in order to make veganism look easier than people would think. As Harpy said, it might require some behind-the-scenes work (looking at the menu in advance, calling restaurants, steering people to more vegan-friendly restaurants, etc), but I think it's very possible to make veganism "easy" or at least "easier" while still upholding your strict standards. When I have gone out with omnis I've never had to compromise my standards, and yet they have been surprised at the variety of delicious foods that I can eat as a vegan (granted that I've only been a vegan for a couple of months so far, and I may very well enounter a situation where there's nothing that I can eat at a restaurant).

    I think that making veganism look "easy" and more attractive to people is as important as maintaining your high standards...spreading veganism to thoughtless, selfish people who think it's too hard still reduces the amount of animal suffering and killing.
    You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you.
    ~John Wooden

  13. #13

    Default Re: Ingredients v Activism

    Actually, if you want to appear a certain way to others, making veganism look "easy," eat with them often and enjoy all of the foods you love. Go to vegan-friendly restaurants. Asking questions of waiters is not being difficult. Would you call your mother with hypertension "difficult" if she asked for no salt on her salmon dish?
    utopiankitchen.wordpress.com

  14. #14

    Default Re: Ingredients v Activism

    The Spring issue of The Vegan has an article on Revolutionary Veganism. If you haven't read it yet, please do so.

    Counter to the Ingredients article, the Revolutionary article suggest we take veganism seriously and offers a perspective supporting the moral base-line. If you want to know what I think, then read the article.
    The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for whites or women for men. —Alice Walker

  15. #15
    ConsciousCuisine
    Guest

    Default Re: Ingredients v Activism

    Quote DancingWillow
    I agree CC, but I also don't feel that the animals should suffer because of the majority's laziness, thoughtlessness, and selfishness.

    I also don't think that vegans need to compromise their standards in order to make veganism look easier than people would think. As Harpy said, it might require some behind-the-scenes work (looking at the menu in advance, calling restaurants, steering people to more vegan-friendly restaurants, etc), but I think it's very possible to make veganism "easy" or at least "easier" while still upholding your strict standards. When I have gone out with omnis I've never had to compromise my standards, and yet they have been surprised at the variety of delicious foods that I can eat as a vegan (granted that I've only been a vegan for a couple of months so far, and I may very well enounter a situation where there's nothing that I can eat at a restaurant).

    I think that making veganism look "easy" and more attractive to people is as important as maintaining your high standards...spreading veganism to thoughtless, selfish people who think it's too hard still reduces the amount of animal suffering and killing.
    Obviously we must be smart about our veganism and I would *never* want the animals to suffer for any reason, certainly not because of human laziness, thoughtlessness or selfishness...that's the main reason why I am vegan, really, to make a lasting difference!

    Perhaps I was misunderstood so let me be clear:

    I have *never*, as a vegan, eaten at a new restaurant withour calling ahead first and I suggest a vegan or at the very least a vegetarian eatery that offers good service, fine food and beautiful atmosphere (a good price too, when I can manage all of the above as well ). I never want to be a "bother" and I have little faith in the ability of others to accomodate me without prior notice, based on years of unpleasant experiences, so I do the kind and smart thing; I call head and educate them and thus allow them an easy way to accomodate me (steamed veggies, plain with olive oil and garlic, plain pasta or rice, beans, salad with oil and vinegar and extra veggies etc. is in many kitchens!) and hopefully any other vegans they may encounter in the future.

    More often than not, I cook for others and offer to cook first before going out. That's how I do my best outreach, really, how I show that vegan food is delicious, decadent, divinely satisfying and also the most conscious cuisine on the planet

    So, to recap, I won't compromise my standards by blindly eating non-vegan foods and pretending to be vegan, because being deceptive "harms the cause" (after all, who can trust a liar?) but at the same time I *will* go out of my way to share with others how passionately I enjoy vegan food, encouraging them to do so as well (I never have to ask twice ) and show them how delightful eating karma-free can be!

  16. #16
    DancingWillow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    648

    Default Re: Ingredients v Activism

    Quote Artichoke47
    Actually, if you want to appear a certain way to others, making veganism look "easy," eat with them often and enjoy all of the foods you love. Go to vegan-friendly restaurants. Asking questions of waiters is not being difficult. Would you call your mother with hypertension "difficult" if she asked for no salt on her salmon dish?
    I don't want to make it *appear* easy; I want to *show* them that it is...and not only is it easy, it is a compassionate, eco-friendly, healthy, and delicious choice as well, as all of us here would probably agree Any aspect of eating out as a vegan is not due to the fact that it's hard; it's due to the fact that our society's cuisine is based on meat and dairy and thus restaurants have few choices suitable for vegans. It can also be due to the ignorance of the staff of the restaurant.
    You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you.
    ~John Wooden

  17. #17
    DancingWillow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    648

    Default Re: Ingredients v Activism

    Quote ConsciousCuisine
    I would *never* want the animals to suffer for any reason
    Of course not, I would never think that!

    Quote ConsciousCuisine
    I have *never*, as a vegan, eaten at a new restaurant withour calling ahead first and I suggest a vegan or at the very least a vegetarian eatery that offers good service, fine food and beautiful atmosphere (a good price too, when I can manage all of the above as well ). I never want to be a "bother" and I have little faith in the ability of others to accomodate me without prior notice, based on years of unpleasant experiences, so I do the kind and smart thing; I call head and educate them and thus allow them an easy way to accomodate me (steamed veggies, plain with olive oil and garlic, plain pasta or rice, beans, salad with oil and vinegar and extra veggies etc. is in many kitchens!) and hopefully any other vegans they may encounter in the future.
    I think this is what I was getting at...you can be a strict vegan (rather than a hypocrite who claims to be a vegan but makes exceptions for the sake of trying to encourage others to be vegan) and still eat out and show others that it's possible to eat great vegan foods not only at home, but at restaurants as well.

    Quote ConsciousCuisine
    More often than not, I cook for others and offer to cook first before going out. That's how I do my best outreach, really, how I show that vegan food is delicious, decadent, divinely satisfying and also the most conscious cuisine on the planet
    That's fantastic! I'm jealous of the people who get a taste of your culinary talent

    Quote ConsciousCuisine
    So, to recap, I won't compromise my standards by blindly eating non-vegan foods and pretending to be vegan, because being deceptive "harms the cause" (after all, who can trust a liar?) but at the same time I *will* go out of my way to share with others how passionately I enjoy vegan food, encouraging them to do so as well (I never have to ask twice ) and show them how delightful eating karma-free can be!
    I won't compromise my standards either, nor do I want to be deceptive, and I apologize if my previous post was poorly articulated and suggested that...
    You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you.
    ~John Wooden

  18. #18
    ConsciousCuisine
    Guest

    Default Re: Ingredients v Activism

    Quote DancingWillow
    I won't compromise my standards either, nor do I want to be deceptive, and I apologize if my previous post was poorly articulated and suggested that...
    No need to apolgize at all, I just like to expand on ideas and on my beliefs and communicate clearly (as do you, I see, which makes me like your style already! ).

  19. #19
    kriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    at home
    Posts
    768

    Default Re: Ingredients v Activism

    I will never compromise my standards to make myself look less extreme or to make veganism look managable. It's all second nature for me and I just live with the pros and cons no matter what. And I'm afraid anything with eggs and cheese would make me throw up. I know too much about that nasty industry, it's not appetizing.
    "Animals are my friends... and I don't eat my friends". ~ George Bernhard Shaw.

  20. #20
    Troub's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    81

    Default Re: Ingredients v Activism

    Quote ConsciousCuisine
    People will bitch and moan and find any excuse to avoid doing the right thing...we are a nation of lazy, thoughtless, selfish, self-absorbed whiners who will stop at nothing to indulge our insatiable, greedy appetites for more power, more convinience and more "comfort" and we want it YESTERDAY, so it doesn't serve us as vegans to bow to the powers that be and "fake it" to blend in or make veganism look "easy" just to appease/deceive the masses.
    QFT

  21. #21
    DancingWillow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    648

    Default Re: Ingredients v Activism

    Quote ConsciousCuisine
    No need to apolgize at all, I just like to expand on ideas and on my beliefs and communicate clearly (as do you, I see, which makes me like your style already! ).
    You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you.
    ~John Wooden

  22. #22

    Default Re: Ingredients v Activism

    In a restaurant I am likely to make a fuss if necerssary. These people are being paid to feed me, so they should know what is and is not acceptable. It hasnt come up yet, but I might have to think differently if a friend had gone to great effort for me, ad had inadvertantly given me something I dont eat (ie, quorn, normal marg, etc)

  23. #23

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    313

    Default Re: Ingredients v Activism

    Quote pinkgirl
    In a restaurant I am likely to make a fuss if necerssary. These people are being paid to feed me, so they should know what is and is not acceptable.
    No kidding! I asked if there were any eggs or dairy prodects in something, then found out that the girl had JUST PUT butter in it. I told her that butter IS a dairy product. I didn't make a scene, but I did inform her, because she needs to know! Besides vegans, then are people with allergies too, who could die if they had the wrong information. I would have just been really upset.

  24. #24
    DancingWillow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    648

    Default Re: Ingredients v Activism

    Quote veggiegirl3
    No kidding! I asked if there were any eggs or dairy prodects in something, then found out that the girl had JUST PUT butter in it. I told her that butter IS a dairy product. I didn't make a scene, but I did inform her, because she needs to know! Besides vegans, then are people with allergies too, who could die if they had the wrong information. I would have just been really upset.
    I am surprised how uninformed waiters are sometimes. Many people have some type of allergy or food preference/restriction and cannot eat certain types of foods. There are diabetics, people with high cholesterol, people who need gluten-free or wheat-free foods, people with allergies, people with religious diets (e.g. Kosher) and of course, vegans. I think that ALL waiters should take a mandatory class that describes the different types of diets and what is allowed/not allowed in each one. Also, I think restaurants should have a printed booklet with all the ingredients for each item listed on the menu. That way if someone has a question about an ingredient, they can easily refer to the booklet and check.

    In addition to being uninformed, some waiters are just plain rude When you ask them about an ingredient, they roll their eyes or express annoyence, as if you're being a nuisance.
    You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you.
    ~John Wooden

  25. #25
    Michael Benis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Brighton, UK
    Posts
    195

    Default Re: Ingredients v Activism

    I've read that article before. I think it's hysterical. A sort of humourless maths of conversion, when it's not the ingredient-reading but the po-faced moral verbiage (just liek the article) that puts people off.

    Letting little things slip by just sends out the message that compromise is OK, which is probably not quite how the animals involved feel about it.

    And it makes it all sound so difficult, which it isn't.

    So, to my way of thinking it's a symptoms not solutions article.

    And in the end, people tend to be more interested in why someone else is doing something they care passionately about and having their imagination stretched and the facts they know enlarged (sprinkled with a little camaraderie and humour - which helps) than in being converted because it's so easy and groovy two-shoes and it doesn't really matter if your otherwise vegan Eccles Cakes are made with lard.

    Oink oink!

    Mike

  26. #26
    kriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    at home
    Posts
    768

    Default Re: Ingredients v Activism

    Quote DancingWillow
    I am surprised how uninformed waiters are sometimes. Many people have some type of allergy or food preference/restriction and cannot eat certain types of foods. There are diabetics, people with high cholesterol, people who need gluten-free or wheat-free foods, people with allergies, people with religious diets (e.g. Kosher) and of course, vegans. I think that ALL waiters should take a mandatory class that describes the different types of diets and what is allowed/not allowed in each one. Also, I think restaurants should have a printed booklet with all the ingredients for each item listed on the menu. That way if someone has a question about an ingredient, they can easily refer to the booklet and check.

    In addition to being uninformed, some waiters are just plain rude When you ask them about an ingredient, they roll their eyes or express annoyence, as if you're being a nuisance.
    When I was 17 I worked in a bakery. Several times people would come in and ask about the ingredients in our breads. I always respected people's questions. Some were allergic and would have a severe reaction if I misinformed them. One time, a lady told me she could DIE if she had a certain typ of flour! I called the head office to reassure that our breads were ok for her to eat. What if I would have the same condition as this lady and have an allergic reaction to for example shrimp paste!! Do the waiters care at all?? In Chinese resaurants I usually say that I'm severely allergic, but they usually smile and say - "OK, OK". And by that, I know for sure I'll get my veggies and tofu soaked in oyster sauce
    "Animals are my friends... and I don't eat my friends". ~ George Bernhard Shaw.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Ingredients v Activism

    I read the article and some similar articles at the vegan outreach site and was a bit put off by some things, but appreciated others that the author suggested. I am sure that some of the food I eat when I eat out has been cooked where meat probably touched. Though I'm not happy about it, I still eat out (though I avoid eating things that I KNOW that, say, fries are cooked in the same oil with chicken fingers), so I guess I'm a bit less than 100% vegan at those times. Also, I appreciated that he pointed out that some things are a necessary evil at the moment (like medicine I take for asthma that has undeniably been tested on animals ). However, a link to one article (http://satyamag.com/sept05/greger.html) annoyed me by seeming to find vegans who won't eat honey "extreme" and claim that those no honey vegans (like myself) are hurting veganism. He points out that insects are killed when crops are harvested and through pesticide use, so bees being killed in honey collecting is no different. However, I see a difference. After all, honey is one of the main food stores for bees and we give them a cheap substitute to take it from them (not that that's the only issue, but it's not JUST about the inadvertent bee deaths). On the vegan outreach site they also rationalize how insects and the invertebrates are "lower" animals and thus don't feel pain like us or the other vertebrate animals. This just "chills" me a bit as that's what people used to say about the other vertebrates. I admit that in my mind I don't really equate a bee with a lamb, but I still want to do the least harm possible to any living creature and I'm bothered when so-called vegan activists diminish any creature's right to live in its natural state (as far as possible).
    When you are guided by compassion and loving-kindness, you are able to look deeply into the heart of reality and see the truth.--Thich Nhat Hanh

  28. #28
    Seaside
    Guest

    Default Re: Ingredients v Activism

    Quote vaderesque
    On the vegan outreach site they also rationalize how insects and the invertebrates are "lower" animals and thus don't feel pain like us or the other vertebrate animals. This just "chills" me a bit as that's what people used to say about the other vertebrates. I admit that in my mind I don't really equate a bee with a lamb, but I still want to do the least harm possible to any living creature and I'm bothered when so-called vegan activists diminish any creature's right to live in its natural state (as far as possible).
    Hi vaderesque! I think the mistake lots of people make (and I guess some vegans do too, if that is the idea at Vegan Outreach) is that it is necessary to "equate" different animals. The way I like to look at it is that the bee's life is as important to the bee as the lamb's life is to the lamb, and my life is to me. Then the apparent differences in "importance" or "value" between different animals is rendered meaningless, as are qualities of sentience, ability to suffer, etc., and therefore we don't have to struggle with equating different species, or feel bad if we can't. The bottom line is realizing that every animal values its own life in its own way, and that we must, as you say, try to do as little harm to all as we possibly can.

  29. #29
    DancingWillow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    648

    Default Re: Ingredients v Activism

    Quote Seaside
    The way I like to look at it is that the bee's life is as important to the bee as the lamb's life is to the lamb, and my life is to me.
    Love how you've worded it
    You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you.
    ~John Wooden

  30. #30

    Default Re: Ingredients v Activism

    Quote Seaside
    Hi vaderesque! I think the mistake lots of people make (and I guess some vegans do too, if that is the idea at Vegan Outreach) is that it is necessary to "equate" different animals. The way I like to look at it is that the bee's life is as important to the bee as the lamb's life is to the lamb, and my life is to me. Then the apparent differences in "importance" or "value" between different animals is rendered meaningless, as are qualities of sentience, ability to suffer, etc., and therefore we don't have to struggle with equating different species, or feel bad if we can't. The bottom line is realizing that every animal values its own life in its own way, and that we must, as you say, try to do as little harm to all as we possibly can.
    Hey to you Seaside What you said is definitely true...I was just thinking about how a bee, (silk) catepillar, lobster, and other invertebrates obviously value their lives and struggle to survive, so how can veganoutreach make such statements that seem to belittle their very lives? (At least that's the way it hit me, as belittling.) I did read their rationalization of why we shouldn't argue against honey, silk, and the like: basically they argue that such arguments make non-vegans look at us like we're insane and since most don't even worry about vertebrate suffering, they will feel justified in ignoring us as "radicals" if we go so "extreme." I personally won't eat honey or buy silk and will tell someone if they ask, but non-vegans have mainly asked me about meat/dairy/eggs, so that's mainly what I discuss. I think they're trying to "mainstream" veganism to the point of watering it down to make us seem less "nuts." I personally see my veganism as my small attempt to lessen the suffering of sentient, feeling creatures (including ALL animals--from humans to sheep to bees and all in-between) in this world...though I know I can't completely avoid being part of animal suffering, that is the main point of being a vegan for me--to try my best. I know I'm ranting, but it really bugged me (no pun intended)!
    When you are guided by compassion and loving-kindness, you are able to look deeply into the heart of reality and see the truth.--Thich Nhat Hanh

  31. #31
    Seaside
    Guest

    Default Re: Ingredients v Activism

    Thanks DancingWillow!

    Its a tough issue, vaderesque, to decide what makes vegans look too weird to others. I tend to think that if people don't like veganism, they won't like vegans, no matter what we do or don't do in public. Yet I think it is important to keep in mind that people who are interested may find it overwhelming to be informed of everything that vegans consider to be unethical all at once. When I became aware as a vegetarian that using milk and eggs did involve killing I stopped eating them, but I refused to consider myself a vegan or identify myself as one because I lived with dogs and cats, and had no intention of ever stopping taking in strays and rescues just so I could officially call myself vegan. I figured if I attempted to meet other vegans I would be rejected for this, so I never bothered. It didn't change how I lived, but it did affect how I viewed veganism for many years. Sometimes it takes a while before new vegans can really understand and accept some of the finer aspects of being vegan, like the use of honey, or silk, or worrying about stuff like trace ingredients and how some sugars and beverages are filtered, so I guess I can see it from both sides. I never go around preaching, though, just answering questions honestly when they are asked, like you do, and I never have been asked about the vegan views on things like honey and silk by anyone I have ever met in real life. I would have to be honest though, if I were asked, despite what Vegan Outreach advises. Sometimes people challenge us not because they are interested in veganism, but because they are interested in how committed we are to our own beliefs, and I prefer to show people that I will always live according to my ethics, regardless of how weird someone might think I am.

  32. #32

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    313

    Default Re: Ingredients v Activism

    I know this isn't the nicest thing to say, but bees aren't the things I care most about. If I had to, honey would be the first thing that I would eat (though I don't eat it now). My view on it is this: I'm not very concerned about bees and their rights, but why consume bee products like honey or silk if it can be avoided, which it very easily can? Since I see no need, I don't.

  33. #33

    Default Re: Ingredients v Activism

    Quote Seaside
    Its a tough issue, vaderesque, to decide what makes vegans look too weird to others. I tend to think that if people don't like veganism, they won't like vegans, no matter what we do or don't do in public. Yet I think it is important to keep in mind that people who are interested may find it overwhelming to be informed of everything that vegans consider to be unethical all at once. When I became aware as a vegetarian that using milk and eggs did involve killing I stopped eating them, but I refused to consider myself a vegan or identify myself as one because I lived with dogs and cats, and had no intention of ever stopping taking in strays and rescues just so I could officially call myself vegan. I figured if I attempted to meet other vegans I would be rejected for this, so I never bothered. It didn't change how I lived, but it did affect how I viewed veganism for many years. Sometimes it takes a while before new vegans can really understand and accept some of the finer aspects of being vegan, like the use of honey, or silk, or worrying about stuff like trace ingredients and how some sugars and beverages are filtered, so I guess I can see it from both sides. I never go around preaching, though, just answering questions honestly when they are asked, like you do, and I never have been asked about the vegan views on things like honey and silk by anyone I have ever met in real life. I would have to be honest though, if I were asked, despite what Vegan Outreach advises. Sometimes people challenge us not because they are interested in veganism, but because they are interested in how committed we are to our own beliefs, and I prefer to show people that I will always live according to my ethics, regardless of how weird someone might think I am.
    Right, I actually agree with them that some vegans who go around (in their terms) being "vegan police" give veganism a bad name. I know on one of these threads, someone said that she was at a "friend's" house who "claimed to be vegan" and saw some Dove soap, then left the house and never talked to the friend again. In that situation, I think I would discuss with the person what I thought about Dove soap (as maybe the friend didn't know), but I wouldn't stop talking to the friend as I can't claim to be a "perfect" vegan myself--as I already mentioned and in this society it's almost impossible to be (with cars and even bicycles containing some animal ingredients and some ingredients not even listed on labels). I must admit that I sometimes refer to "militant" vegans--those in-your-face holier-than-thou vegans--as giving veganism a bad name, but that's different than just (as you mention, Seaside) being honest about what you'll eat/use and why without being judgemental or angry about it. {I too have omnivorous pets and won't stop any time soon because they're my "family" too} I also agree with you that some people are trying to gauge just how "true" you are to your convictions and I think lying to them (like if you don't eat honey and they ask, but you say "sure, I'll eat honey") is more damaging to veganism than being honest with them as well as yourself.
    When you are guided by compassion and loving-kindness, you are able to look deeply into the heart of reality and see the truth.--Thich Nhat Hanh

  34. #34

    Default Revolutionary Veganism

    "Revolutionary Veganism," a new article in The Vegan, is on "the greatest peaceful revolution ever known."

    Many of you disagree with the article in the "Ingredients v Activism" thread, which argued that it may be time to redefine what it means to be vegan. Lee Hall and I disagree as well, arguing in "Revolutionary Veganism" that, as currently defined, veganism provides us with a moral baseline from which to change the world.


    The Vegan is a quarterly publication sent free to Vegan Society members. It is also available on subscription and from all good wholefood shops, priced £2.50.

    To request a free trial copy, please email info@vegansociety.com with your full address details.
    The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for whites or women for men. —Alice Walker

  35. #35

    Default Re: Revolutionary Veganism

    I was one of the ones that disagreed with Matt Ball's argument, as it really upset me that he seemed to be discouraging those of us that try to be as "purely" vegan as possible by making it out that we're nut-jobs or extremists that hurt the vegan movement. Some of his arguments (and those vegan outreach put links up to) seem to be really anti-vegan in the true sense of the word...I think in many ways they're misusing the term and making vegans look less dedicated than we try to be. I really enjoyed your article (I was thrilled you put up the link--I would love the read the "postbag" responses to Matt Ball's article in your magazine too). I don't get the magazine because I'm an American...I am looking though for an American magazine with similar thrust if there is one
    When you are guided by compassion and loving-kindness, you are able to look deeply into the heart of reality and see the truth.--Thich Nhat Hanh

  36. #36

    Default Re: Revolutionary Veganism

    Quote vaderesque
    I was one of the ones that disagreed with Matt Ball's argument, as it really upset me that he seemed to be discouraging those of us that try to be as "purely" vegan as possible by making it out that we're nut-jobs or extremists that hurt the vegan movement. Some of his arguments (and those vegan outreach put links up to) seem to be really anti-vegan in the true sense of the word...I think in many ways they're misusing the term and making vegans look less dedicated than we try to be. I really enjoyed your article (I was thrilled you put up the link--I would love the read the "postbag" responses to Matt Ball's article in your magazine too). I don't get the magazine because I'm an American...I am looking though for an American magazine with similar thrust if there is one
    Thanks for reading the article. Matt Ball is intentionally misusing the term vegan. Ball has for years made it clear that VO wants to change the meaning of the term "vegan" from being a philosophy and way of life to a mere "tool". I argee with you that the arguments Ball and VO use are at root anti-vegan.

    Happily, positive vegan advocacy is still alive and well. Most vegans see there lifestyle as a positive affirmation and direct action. Matt Ball's watered-down misuse of "veganism" as a tool is limited mainly to followers of VO. Although some VO members may feel ambivalent about the organization's policy of disparaging the vegan philosophy.
    The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for whites or women for men. —Alice Walker

  37. #37
    Sgable84's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Chicago Burbs
    Posts
    87

    Default Re: Ingredients v Activism

    Yes, I totally get the restaurant example, BUT as a vegan I do my research before I go and then I'll know what they have that is vegan.
    As vegans I think we need to be knowledgeable about things like that, also I think knowledge about food in general (health benefits, substitutes to dairy products, etc) is a good thing. Cause I know I have had a lot of people ask "where do you get your protein" or whatever. I, as a vegan, need to be able to respond.

  38. #38
    Lars's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    61

    Default Re: Ingredients v Activism

    I hate the thought of compromising on veganism just to be less of a pain, i can understand the idea that asking waiters/staff to rustle up somethng vegan might give a bad impression, but we can try to do it in the nicest manner possible, i mean if we went out for a group dinner for a birthday we don't have a choice in where we're going to have dinner so surely they would have to try and understand that. And i think it would be so much worse to be a hypocrite and have people think that vegans are flakey (I'd liken it to being "christian" and acting like a total dickhead)

    ughhh! I'm getting angry at the idea. Anyway - if you order something with animal in it you are attributing to the demand in that restaurant for the product used and not being vegan!! Veganism is all or nothing

    Quote pinkgirl View Post
    It hasnt come up yet, but I might have to think differently if a friend had gone to great effort for me, ad had inadvertantly given me something I dont eat (ie, quorn, normal marg, etc)
    I think I would have to suck it up if a friend of mine tried to make something i could eat but didn't realise a certain ingredient wasn't vegan etc I wouldn't want to throw that in their face, paying for your food however, This is bound to happen sometime...
    Last edited by Lars; Dec 12th, 2010 at 04:16 AM. Reason: typo
    http://youandmesydney.blogspot.com/

  39. #39
    fortified twinkle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Midlands, UK
    Posts
    1,763

    Default Re: Ingredients v activism

    What do you do when your friend has known you ten years +, gone shopping with you numerous times and you think they know exactly what a vegan eats and what to look out for, and then they buy things that aren't vegan and intend to feed you with them because they apparently assume it's a vegan item without looking at the ingredients or allergy advice? This has happened a few times recently, and either they've got tired of looking at ingredients (with all the bother that 20 seconds of effort creates!) or they never actually looked to begin with and I took it on trust too much...
    "If you don't have a song to sing you're okay, you know how to get along humming" Waltz (better than fine) - Fiona Apple

  40. #40
    Lars's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    61

    Default Re: Ingredients v activism

    Yeah good point, after that amount of time and if you ate with them more than a few times it wouldn't be acceptable, I was thinking about from my perspective where It wouldn't ge a common occurrence
    http://youandmesydney.blogspot.com/

  41. #41
    baffled harpy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    6,655

    Default Re: Ingredients v activism

    Quote twinkle View Post
    What do you do when your friend has known you ten years +, gone shopping with you numerous times and you think they know exactly what a vegan eats and what to look out for, and then they buy things that aren't vegan and intend to feed you with them because they apparently assume it's a vegan item without looking at the ingredients or allergy advice? This has happened a few times recently, and either they've got tired of looking at ingredients (with all the bother that 20 seconds of effort creates!) or they never actually looked to begin with and I took it on trust too much...
    How annoying that must be! I think I'd ask them just to make me a salad next time, and take something more substantial along myself. That would avoid a row but show that you consider it important.

Similar Threads

  1. New vegan wants some activism action
    By Sgable84 in forum Projects, companies & links
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: Jan 1st, 2011, 06:35 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •