The definition of vegan

[redlentils]

Here is a relevant site:
http://www.thevegetariansite.com/ed_nolonger.htm

"What is a vegan? It's a label, just like vegetarian, republican, gay, senior citizen, christian, and democrat are labels. We are people; we are not the label we place on ourselves. The boundaries of whatever definition we assign to "vegan" are flexible. For me, it's about compassion. It's about reducing the amount of suffering in the world, especially for those who do not have a voice. I choose to follow this path through my food and product choices. "


excellent article. i too am happier to talk about eating vegan food or wearing non-leather shoes than to label myself as "vegan". What really brought this home to me was when a few years ago i bought some green beans from a supermarket. later i noted they were from zambia. i few days after that i read a harrowing report written by a member of the buddhist community i belong to about their experience in supporting a primary care outpost in zambia at a time of famine when many many people died. i know that i have been at times i have looked down on people whose diets are macdonald-esqe yet none of us is perfect. it is about leading as compassionate a life as possible. relieving the suffering of all sentient beings as best we can.

[szyxwvut]

This is not meant to offend anyone but...

I can't believe that so many people on this forum do not at least consider it important to be strict dietary vegans. I have to agree with most of what St George says. On a dietary level you are either a vegan or you are not a vegan. Those who consider "lapses" in any form okay should consider themselves vegetarian. It really is that simple. Vegetarians surely have their own forum?!

[Vivisanctor]

"i am Christian,but i worship satan once a week"

no, it's like saying "I'm a Christian, but I am a sinner as well"

[PinkFluffyCloud]

"i am Christian,but i worship satan once a week"

no, it's like saying "I'm a Christian, but I am a sinner as well"

Yeah, Reality Check!

[Andie]

Conscious,
Have you read "Living Among MEat Eaters?" While your having issues with vegans and vegetarians, some of the same dynamics explored in Carol Adams' book may be going on. Good luck.

As for your question, I occasionally cook omni food for hubby. I take medicines that aren't vegan and haven't thrown away wool and leather items. Restaurants are iffy places for me. I'm not comfortable asking too many questions about hidden ingredients.

Does that make me unvegan, not sure. I really don't care about labels.

[Andie]

I must ammend that. Labels are important to some degree. They help us know what is and is not. I have gotten aggrivated at people who say they are vegetarians and eat fish and chicken. I think some people want the vegan or vegetarian "status" without giving up stuff.
Or what about the folks who say "I don't eat a lot of meat" What's their point?

[ConsciousCuisine]

Conscious,
Have you read "Living Among MEat Eaters?" While your having issues with vegans and vegetarians, some of the same dynamics explored in Carol Adams' book may be going on. Good luck.

As for your question, I occasionally cook omni food for hubby. I take medicines that aren't vegan and haven't thrown away wool and leather items. Restaurants are iffy places for me. I'm not comfortable asking too many questions about hidden ingredients.

Does that make me unvegan, not sure. I really don't care about labels.

I have read the book. I agree that often when people call themselves vegan but eat rice at restaurants without checking to be sure it has no chicken broth or eating rolls that are slathered in butter it is for many reasons, some of which are brought up in the book. I have asked vegans questions about this and have to say that it is an even divide: half of the people are strict/pure and the other half do the "don't ask/don't tell" thing at restaruants or friends houses or eat honey or other animal products while calling themselves "Vegan".

It is confusing to me.

[ConsciousCuisine]

I must ammend that. Labels are important to some degree. They help us know what is and is not. I have gotten aggrivated at people who say they are vegetarians and eat fish and chicken. I think some people want the vegan or vegetarian "status" without giving up stuff.
Or what about the folks who say "I don't eat a lot of meat" What's their point?

Vegans feel the same way about those who eat gelatin/chicken broth/honey etc. and say they are "Vegan".

[foxytina_69]

my definition of vegan is to not harm animals in order to live. i do prepare animal products sumtimes for other people, and i do have a couple wool/suede coats. i think it makes more sense to keep my coats and use them instead of throwing them away, as long as i dont purchase anything else that an animal was harmed for. im happy aslong as im not consuming or buying anything with animal products, and im not using any hygeine products with animal products in them.

[ConsciousCuisine]

Making use of (by wearing or giving it away) non-vegan clothing that was acquired prior to becoming vegan is a healthy part of "doing the least harm"...it is wasteful to *not* use what one already has, IMO.

[veganblue]

to what extent do you question the waitstaff? Say I'm ordering a veggie burger.... How much more in depth would you question them? -JK

I guess a rule of thumb would apply to what you would be prepared to eat with the offending item in it. Sometimes when I am eating bread or toast I can not be 100% certain it does not contain a small amount of a milk by product. While it feels awkward, I continue and just do what I can to avoid those circumstances in future - it *will* happen again...

On the otherhand if I suspect shrimp in the sauce or beef fat in the fryer I don't want to eat that so if not satisfied I politely move on or choose something else.

Your intentions are no less *vegan*; it not really about that at all, I feel that it's about what you are prepared to consume from lack of knowledge about the ingredients.

We are fortunate to have good labelling laws here since there is so much fear of litigation due to allegic reactions - everything has ingredients panels - even water has a panel saying what the sodium count is...!

It looks like you are going to a good deal of trouble to find out and that's great! You may feel like a bother but you are helping educate the staff not only about the ingredients but that there are people that want to know in their customer base.

I have to agree with CC that is is dissapointing when eating out when what is prepared is not a scratch on what you could make yourself! Fortunately this only happens occasionally. (at a vegan restaurant no less!)

[veganblue]

I was thinking about the idea of degrees of veganism and how some people can judge the levels of veganism against themselves or against a set definition. I would have to say my veganism has evolved over time; as I learn more; appreciate the impact I am having more; as I become more relaxed about things as I get older.

The analogy I was thinking about this morning was of a colour - let's say "red" for example. There are many shades of red; crimson, blood, brick, rose, scarlet, but we all agree that the colour is red, not blue. In living out our lives as vegans we not only will not all match, each individual will go through a range of shades throughout their lives but are still consistant to that colour.

I think the same is true for vegans; no matter what shade of vegan we are our intentions and our effect all belong to the colour vegan and it is not terribly important what shade is the 'best'. What is important is the impact each individual is having in their lives, upon the lives and welfare of the animals we are all so keen to protect.

...my two cents worth anyhow

[eve]

I don't think in terms of degrees. Once I decided on a vegan lifestyle, that was it. No evolving. I live my life accordingly. Eating out is impossible for me as there are no restaurants in the town where I live, that have a clue. Having a soyaccino is the only item I consume out. If in Brisbane, there are alternatives, but I only go down there once a year!

[PinkFluffyCloud]

That's funny, Veganblue, I have a chart in my head, like a litmus paper - I don't judge people their worthiness by it, it's just like a game which I apply to everyone.
At one end of my scale is people who are animal abusers who eat meat, going through to those who eat meat but 'love' animals, through to vegetarians who want to not support cruelty but are, maybe unwittingly.
Then there are 'Health Vegans' who eat Vegan for health reasons but don't think deeply about the philosophy - and at the end of my scale, Vegans who are prepared to go the 'whole way' towards liberating animals, whatever the personal cost.
Well, that's just my little 'scale' - I don't always like the human race, but I do find them fascinating - what makes us all who we are, etc.

[Korn]

[Restaurant posts moved here. ]

[gothic_ana]

for me being vegan is to do the best i can to stop or reduce the pan and suffering they go through.
my parner eats meat and his family raise cows for meat so i cant get away from that ijust do the best i can to know what i am doing is good enough even though im only 1 person - every little bit counts.
i dont buy or consume animal products (im a "new" vegan so im still learning what is and isnt a animal product and by product and how to get around that.) also its about helping nature and all its parts cos if people just stoped and looked what eerything dose to everything eles they would understand. or mybe they wouldnt but thats co sthey are ignorant to open there mind even if they dnt chose but just to look andsee is a great start.
COMPASSION FOR EVERYONE & EVERYTHING, ALL RACES ALL ANIMALS ALL LIFE
we all havediffrent meansings cos we all are diffrent, yes we all suport the same cause but we all also have diffrent curcomstaces

take care

[eve]

hello gothic_ana - I'd love to read your post there, but the colour doesn't show up. What's wrong with normal black type?

[gothic_ana]

sorry eve, i didnt know it was so hard to read I might be gothic but i love typing in color it adds some degree of fun and i think just typing in black can get boring if u read it time after time

for me being vegan is to do the best i can to stop or reduce the pan and suffering they go through.
my parner eats meat and his family raise cows for meat so i cant get away from that ijust do the best i can to know what i am doing is good enough even though im only 1 person - every little bit counts.
i dont buy or consume animal products (im a "new" vegan so im still learning what is and isnt a animal product and by product and how to get around that.) also its about helping nature and all its parts cos if people just stoped and looked what eerything dose to everything eles they would understand. or mybe they wouldnt but thats co sthey are ignorant to open there mind even if they dnt chose but just to look andsee is a great start.
COMPASSION FOR EVERYONE & EVERYTHING, ALL RACES ALL ANIMALS ALL LIFE
we all havediffrent meansings cos we all are diffrent, yes we all suport the same cause but we all also have diffrent curcomstaces

take care

[Korn]

There is no such thing as a "dietary vegan."

According to the vegan society there is. Who am I to argue?

I think that the reason TVS use that definition, is to just distinguish between people who eat vegan food on one side, and all the others on the other side. It's easier to put 'dietary vegan' into a pop-up menu that 'I'm either a vegan or one that eats only vegan food'.

If they would mean that a 'Vegan' is a person who just eats vegan food, there would be no need to use the expression 'dietary vegan'. The fact that they use this expression just shows that they distingush between vegans and dietary vegans, meaning that - a vegan is something else than a dietary vegan.

But as you wrote earlier, why not just agree that there are people who are vegans, and there are people who eat vegan food. There are also people who are Italian, and people who eat Italian food. I have used the term 'dietary vegan' in the past myself, but it is a self-contradiction, just like 'dietary hindu' would have been. I also know that there are negative reactions on that The Vegan Society use that term, and you may have noticed that they are being criticized for focusing to little on ethics.

For me, a vegetarian means one who eats plant-based food, as opposed to a lacto-vegetarian, who eats plant based food + dairy products.( http://www.veganforum.com/forums/sho...ght=definition ) For others, the word vegetarian is meaning many different things. We have discussed this several times before, and I think most vegans agree that it's better if the word 'vegan' doesn't loose it's meaning, the way 'vegetarian' has. Because if it does, we need to invent a new word for people who don't eat or use animal products, and that would not be a good solution. It's already invented a term for people who eat vegan food, but are not vegans, 'vegitan', - but few people use it either because they haven't heard of it or because it sounds a bit funny. I don't know.

People who use the original meaning of vegan (90% or more vegans?) don't deserve to be forced to invent a new term for people who are against using animal products (not only in their diet, but as much as possible), now when the meaning of 'vegan' finally is becoming known.

[Spiral]

It's already invented a term for people who eat vegan food, but are not vegans, 'vegitan', - but few people use it either because they haven't heard of it or because it sounds a bit funny. I don't know.

I've not heard the term before, but it makes sence to have another word to describe those who eat a vegan diet but may wear leather etc. Now I know the term, I'll use it. We live and learn

When I first joined the UK vegan society over 20 years ago, I'm pretty sure they stipulated then that anyone wanting to be a full member was a vegan. I haven't been a member of the society constantly throughout those 20 years, and joined again fairly recently when they used the term 'dietary vegan' instead of just vegan, which I thought was a bit odd, but assumed they had their reasons. I don't know when they changed the criteria for membership, but it's probably a good idea if they changed back to just using the term vegan. Perhaps they wanted to encourage vegitans to join when they otherwise wouldn't

[Mr Pearcore]

My definition hasn't changed over the years, and I'm not flexible, even with the honey that "beforewisdom" is neutral about. If someone else wants to eat it (sometimes referred to as bees vomit), that's up to them, but I'm vegan.

Theres a Self Righteous Brothers song that is about being vegan and it has the line: "I wont use the honey thats made from masturbating bee's"

God, I love them guys.

[Mr Pearcore]

I may have replied to this thread already, but Im not sure. But my definition of the term VEGAN, is someone who does everything within their will to not use, exploit, condone etc animal products and animal cruelty in anyway. By this, I dont mean someone who tries not to eat a vege burger with egg on it, but just has to because they love egg so much. I mean a vegan is someone who does all they can to not use animal products. Because we all use animal products, theres apparently animal products in rubber, thats car tires and alot of other things. And cars use alot of greese and other shit that us non mechanic or whatever folk dont know about which Im sure would contain animal products as everything else seems to, so why not them? Aswell, I read an article once where the argument was what I am saying (which was by a vegan). They said noone is a perfect vegan or even a vegan at all, as everyone uses toilet paper etc. toilet paper is from the cutting down of trees which birds live in etc. so you can get down to even the most anal (no pun intended) theories, and we still somehow at the end of the day are using anmial products. But all we can do is do our best to do whatever we can to cause the atleast amount of harm to other living creatures as we can.

I dont consider someone who drinks a non-vegan beer on occasions as a vegan. You cant be half-arsed. Thats not doing your best. but on the same token, you are doing better than most.

So basically all Im saying is a vegan is someone who does everything within their means to not use or condone animal products and cruelty in anyway, without being homeless in the street, naked eating weeds and grass.

[Kelzie]

I got a lesson in the vegan definition from my omni sister of all people. She drove me out to an Amish farm two weeks ago, all proud because I had explained to her the ethical reasons I had for not eating eggs, and she had found a place where I could eat them. I SAW the chickens. They were strutting in the yard, rolling in the dirt, just being chickens. Now I'm no expert on the state of mind of chickens, but those chickens were not unhappy in any way, and the eggs were just a by-product. My sister said "see! you can eat those eggs!" I explained to her that I was uncomfortable eating eggs, because vegans don't eat eggs. She looked at me and said "you can't just live the definition". And she was right. So I had some eggs two weeks ago. Was I a vegan two weeks ago? No I wasn't. Do I believe I was still living ethically two weeks ago? Yes I do.

Now I know people have different reasons for becoming vegans. To the people that became a vegan because they believe it's wrong to consume any animal product, I've probably committed a horrible sin. To the people, like me that became a vegan because they think it's wrong to harm a creature just to eat, what I did was probably fine. But, I wouldn't have called myself a vegan that day, because I didn't fit the definition. But then again, life so rarely does.

[Mr Pearcore]

I still do not eat free-range eggs, as I dont agree with exploiting animals for profit.

[Kelzie]

Like I said, different people have different reasons for being vegan. Personally, I think the chickens could care less if their eggs were sold. But if you think that the chickens feel exploited, that's fine. I was just saying that we shouldn't base our choices on some definition. If there's no belief behind it, the definition's worthless.

[Cal]

Personally, I think the chickens could care less if their eggs were sold. But if you think that the chickens feel exploited, that's fine.

I would ask you what will happen to those hens when they no longer lay eggs? What happened to the brothers of those hens when they hatched? These are the questions most people don't ask.

[Kelzie]

I understand where you are coming from Cal. Really I do. But these were Amish people. They don't suffocate the male hens like they egg factories do. The hens they had were most likely the umpteenth generation that they had raised. And the hens were running around wild. I really doubt they can keep track of which chicken is no longer laying eggs. I'm not defending eating eggs by any means. In most cases I think it is horrible. But for me, in that circumstance, not eating eggs just because I wanted to follow the definition of vegan would have been wrong.

[eve]

... I'm not defending eating eggs by any means. In most cases I think it is horrible. But for me, in that circumstance, not eating eggs just because I wanted to follow the definition of vegan would have been wrong.

In my view, we don't refrain from eating eggs and we don't boycott the meat and dairy industries etc - just to follow a definition. As vegans we do not eat animal products as a matter of principle based upon compassion for living beings. If someone questions you, it is simple enough to say that "as a vegan I don't consume animals or animal products". After that any problem raised is theirs.

[Kelzie]

But the problem I had is that the reason I don't consume animals or animal products is that I don't think it's ethical to cause animals pain for small amount of enjoyment on the human's part. But if the animal isn't suffering at all, all that leaves me with is a definition of veganism...and then I'm confused.

[eve]

There's another problem Kelzie - how do you know the animal isn't suffering? Do you know what they think when they've laid an egg, and you go and take it away to eat?

[Korn]

"The question is not, can they reason? Nor, can they talk? But, can they suffer?"--Jeremy Bentham

I'm sure you wouldn't be OK with someone killing you with an overdose of sleeping pills, even if you wouldn't suffer.

But if the animal isn't suffering at all, all that leaves me with is a definition of veganism...and then I'm confused.

We discuss that topic in this thread:


Veganism isn't only about not causing physical pain/suffering.

[Korn]

In most cases I think it is horrible.

There is a thread about eggs here.

*But for me, in that circumstance, not eating eggs just because I wanted to follow the definition of vegan would have been wrong.

I agree, and I think everybody does, vegan or not...

[Mr Pearcore]

most likely...doubt

Youre not certain. Therefore I dont see how you can do it.

And I dont live by the definition of "vegan". The term vegan is used to describe my lifestyle. Not the other way around.

Ps - you say you dont live by the definition of vegan, yet you still call yourself a vegan. Why call yourself that then if you dont agree with the label or term?

[Mr Pearcore]

Like I said, different people have different reasons for being vegan. Personally, I think the chickens could care less if their eggs were sold. But if you think that the chickens feel exploited, that's fine. I was just saying that we shouldn't base our choices on some definition. If there's no belief behind it, the definition's worthless.

If you are a vegan, your beliefs should define the definition, otherwise, why do it?

Plus, Im sure kids in sweatshops earning 50 cents an hour are grateful for the little money they earn too, doesnt make it right to exploit them.

Morality has to come into play somewhere along the line.

[Kelzie]

Youre not certain. Therefore I dont see how you can do it.

And I dont live by the definition of "vegan". The term vegan is used to describe my lifestyle. Not the other way around.

Ps - you say you dont live by the definition of vegan, yet you still call yourself a vegan. Why call yourself that then if you dont agree with the label or term?

I never said I don't *live* by the definition of vegan. I do agree with the label and terms, which is why I call myself a vegan. Or maybe because it would be slightly long-winded to say I'm-a-vegan-except-for-thursday-march-27-of-05-when-I-ate-eggs-that-I-believe-were-raised-in-an-ethical-manner. I think people might get a little bored. And if I was not certain I wouldn't have eaten them. The entire point, which I evidently have not made clear, is that a person shouldn't do something vegan *just* because vegans do it. If you don't have belief behind it, it's worthless. I did not, and do not believe I was harming those chickens. So instead of following a definition that I didn't believe, I ate a couple eggs. Do I believe that 99.9% of the time it is unethical to eat eggs? Yes I do.

I KNOW vegans don't eat eggs and I'm sorry Korn, and all others who had to read this, I know there are a lot of other threads dedicated to the "egg question" . And I have read them. I was just trying to defend believing in the definition before you follow it.

[Kelzie]

If you are a vegan, your beliefs should define the definition, otherwise, why do it?

Plus, Im sure kids in sweatshops earning 50 cents an hour are grateful for the little money they earn too, doesnt make it right to exploit them.

Morality has to come into play somewhere along the line.

1. The definition of veganism exists independent of what my beliefs are.

2. I really don't think the exploitation of children in sweatshops can be compared to eating an egg from a chicken that was raised humanely. The comparison I like better is that someone decides that the hair that I lose natuarally everyday has some value for them. Do I really care if they come into my house when I'm gone and take some hairs from my pillow? Hey, if that's what floats their boat, they are welcome to it.

3. Obviously morality is important. That is why I don't eat eggs from the grocery store. Because I don't believe they were obtained in a moral way.

I'm really tired of debating the egg issue, not because I believe that I acted wrongly, but because I think it has been done to death. Anything that I or you say has been said else where. So in the interest of keeping the threads on track, let's return the discussion to the definition of veganism.

[Korn]

So in the interest of keeping the threads on track, let's return the discussion to the definition of veganism.

OK.
Do you agree that it's not a question only about *not* causing physical pain/suffering?

[foxytina_69]

i believe everybody lives up to their own defenition of veganism. i think its great if people can be vegan, up to their own personal standards. as long as it helps animals from suffering. and really i think the defenition of a vegan is definitely widespread amongst individuals, depending on the reasoning behind why that one person is vegan.

[Kelzie]

Of course it can't just be about avoiding pain and suffering. Like you said early, if someone couldn't feel pain, that still does not mean you can kill them. I have no qualms about the definition of veganism. I think it perfectly conveys...oh I don't know. I'm sorry I ate eggs, okay? I'm really sorry. I mean, obviously I should be apologizing to the chickens and not you guys, but they're in Illinois, and you can read what I'm writing... I'm just, I'm new to veganism, and no that's not an excuse, and I'm not THAT new, I just started to minimize pain and suffering, and my thinking should have evolved to include non-exploitation, but I didn't read any of the egg threads before my sister took me to that stupid farm, and what she said seemed to make sense. And so I'm sorry. I started posting on this thread thinking that what I did was ethical, and kept typing because I *hate* to be wrong, and now I feel like an idiot. Forgive me?

[snivelingchild]

Wow, I am impressed at your swallowing of your pride. Most people are much more stubborn about not wanting to be wrong. I'm happy to see you were open-minded enough about to reconsider your opinion.
We're all wrong at some point. No need to feel embarassed.

[John]

No hard feelings, Kelzie.

[Mr Pearcore]

Well I was going to reply to Kelzie, until I read he/she has come to their senses and seen the light. So theres no need to now. Thats good.

[Kelzie]

Thanks for forgiving me guys Ummm...so can I still call myself a vegan? Cause I really like it here and all, and my aforementioned : "I'm-a-vegan-except-for-thursday-march-27-of-05-when-I-ate-eggs-that-I-believed-were-raised-in-an-ethical-manner" really is a *little* longwinded...

[Kimberly]

Old topic now, but my question with all this Kelzie-egg-issue is why would your sister take it upon herself to go find a place like that anyway to get you to eat eggs? Why is it so important to her that you eat them or did you want them that badly that you said something like, "Oh, if only they didn't suffer?" Just confuzzled, that's all.

[ConsciousCuisine]

1. The definition of veganism exists independent of what my beliefs are.

2. I really don't think the exploitation of children in sweatshops can be compared to eating an egg from a chicken that was raised humanely. T

3. Obviously morality is important. That is why I don't eat eggs from the grocery store. Because I don't believe they were obtained in a moral way.

The issue here, as I see it, is that vegans don't believe that there IS a "moral" way to obtain eggs or other animal products for our own use and that taking from animals, using them or thier secretions for our own purposes is necessary or acceptable.

Is taking/eating eggs from Amish-raised chickens better than factory-farmed ones? Certainly! Is it a VEGAN practice? No. Vegans don't use animals or thier products (where they could be avoided). The vasy majority of us here have a choice as to what foods we eat and products we buy/use/support. To choose non-vegan when vegan is available is NOT a VEGAN practice.

I am not speaking of children whose parents won't buy them cruely-free home/body products or of people who feel they require medications that have no vegan alternatives. I am making reference to people who willingly choose to eat cake at a party when it's not necessary for human survival or who don't ask the waitress what's in the mashed potatoes...I am sure you all get my drift...

[ConsciousCuisine]

Thanks for forgiving me guys Ummm...so can I still call myself a vegan? Cause I really like it here and all, and my aforementioned : "I'm-a-vegan-except-for-thursday-march-27-of-05-when-I-ate-eggs-that-I-believed-were-raised-in-an-ethical-manner" really is a *little* longwinded...

Are you vegan today? Are your choices consistent with vegan values? Only you can decide that for yourself.

Don't beat yourself up about it (or anything else, for that matter). Just do your best and when you learn more, do better and when you slip up, jump right back in line with vegan values!

[Kelzie]

Old topic now, but my question with all this Kelzie-egg-issue is why would your sister take it upon herself to go find a place like that anyway to get you to eat eggs? Why is it so important to her that you eat them or did you want them that badly that you said something like, "Oh, if only they didn't suffer?" Just confuzzled, that's all.

Who knows? She's two years younger, so I try not to pay attention to her much. She struggling with becoming a vegan herself (at least she says she is...once again she's still a teenager, and a little capricious). So maybe she was exploring the morality of eggs like I was. Although I'm really doubting her new found veganism...she says she'll start once she gets rid of all the meat in the freezer. Blech. Wasn't quite the mind set I had when I became a vegan. (*not judging...I'm not judging...* )

The issue here, as I see it, is that vegans don't believe that there IS a "moral" way to obtain eggs or other animal products for our own use and that taking from animals, using them or thier secretions for our own purposes is necessary or acceptable.

Is taking/eating eggs from Amish-raised chickens better than factory-farmed ones? Certainly! Is it a VEGAN practice? No. Vegans don't use animals or thier products (where they could be avoided). The vasy majority of us here have a choice as to what foods we eat and products we buy/use/support. To choose non-vegan when vegan is available is NOT a VEGAN practice.

I am not speaking of children whose parents won't buy them cruely-free home/body products or of people who feel they require medications that have no vegan alternatives. I am making reference to people who willingly choose to eat cake at a party when it's not necessary for human survival or who don't ask the waitress what's in the mashed potatoes...I am sure you all get my drift...

I just..okay you're going to get me confused again. Do you have to think it's wrong to use animals to be a vegan? I mean obviously that has to be a part of it, but a lot of vegans are a-okay with guide dogs (I know, I know there's another thread about it), which is blatant, out-right using another creature so you can get around. And the whole "they enjoy it" is a load of phoey. Has anybody asked these guide dogs if they want to be trained from puppy-hood to lead another person around for the rest of their lives. Even if the dogs could care less, it would still be using them. Just like chickens.

And I am still a vegan, and still loving it

[eve]

kelzie, can't you simply live a vegan lifestyle without looking at what others are doing? eg guide dogs (which you linked to chickens). Forget what others do, simply do the right thing yourself.

[Kelzie]

I am certainly not living a vegan lifestyle for anyone else. I spent my first four months as a vegan withouy even talking to another vegan. I was under the impression however, that coming to a forum on veganism might help me answer some of the questions I have (ie. the morality of eating chicken eggs vs. guide dogs). Evidently though, questioning is somehow linked to "looking at what others are doing" I am looking at what other people are doing because I am trying to understand why they are doing it. Hence, the questions. After all, psychologists do it all the time

[Realfood Mary]

Thanks for forgiving me guys Ummm...so can I still call myself a vegan? Cause I really like it here and all, and my aforementioned : "I'm-a-vegan-except-for-thursday-march-27-of-05-when-I-ate-eggs-that-I-believed-were-raised-in-an-ethical-manner" really is a *little* longwinded...

I know this is nothing to do with the issue, but that kid looks the spitting image of my son Séamus! Cheeky grin and everything. Now you are going to tell me the child is a girl...

Mary