The definition of vegan

[Kelzie]

I know this is nothing to do with the issue, but that kid looks the spitting image of my son Séamus! Cheeky grin and everything. Now you are going to tell me the child is a girl...

Mary

No you're safe! It's my little brother Jake. He just lookds like a girl cause we dressed him up in jewelery. Séamus is such a cool name...

[Daniel]

Of course it can't just be about avoiding pain and suffering. ... I just started to minimize pain and suffering, and my thinking should have evolved to include non-exploitation.

Kelzie, you understand the definition better than most. Pain and suffering are not the only moral qualifiers, so why do people think that's what veganism is all about? Some how people are getting veganism confused with animal welfare malarkey. Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals. I hope others will evolve as you did, Kelzie.

[Korn]

Here is an excerpt from 'The Vegan', from 1957:

Veganism is the practise of living on the products of the plant kingdom - to the exclusion of flesh, fish, fowl, eggs, animal milk and its derivatives - proceeding from a consideration of the following:

(a) Aspects of design in man and nature
(b) A reformed relationship of man to other creatures
(c) The most efficient use of the fertile potential of earth
(d) An enlightened concept of health
(e) The spiritual and ethical developement of man

More here.

[magpie]

The definition of exploitation seems to be something fraught with contradictions, if hedgehogs eat the slugs that eat your lettuce are you exploiting them? Technically you are, they might be living naturally but if you encourage them in any way you're exploiting.
The term exploitation brings pictures to my mind of pit ponies being worked to death, or yard dogs, half staved and foaming at the mouth. I know there's a body of belief that having animals as pets' is exploitation but there are degrees, and I wonder if something far more worthwhile is thrown out when close contact with animals is lost.
Humans don't live in a bubble, insulated from nature, we are surrounded by it and to a great extent cruelty to animals is a consequence of the downgrading of animal status. Just like the Nazis dehumanized their victims, so cows and sheep are made to look stupid whilst cats and dogs are seen as advanced.
Close human contact with animals builds understanding and respect, if we take away the contact then its too easy for humans to slip into the superior minded mode that underpins slaughter.
What I'm trying to say is that we should actively encourage people to have contact with animals because the benefits far outweigh the negatives.
I've noticed the exploitation argument applied to guide dogs, but guide dogs have immense respect from the wider public and they do a great deal to raise the profile and status of dogs and ultimately all animals. I would like a natural idyll where all animals lived free, and we roamed the forests picking fruits, but the world just isn't like that.

[Shadowsoul]

Wow, I read the entire thread, quite loong, and heavy on the semantical correctness of "vegan".

On a personal note, being vegan is the single, genuine commitment I can make to show real respect to the animals. Whereas most people see veganism as extreme, I avoid ALL animal byproduct and product to the best of my knowledge. It's all a matter of how driven and passionate you are for your cause. I don't dabble and have occasional slips, when I believe in a cause, I go to extreme ways of defending it.

This is what I know, I don't consume all animal meat, by-product, including dairy products, animal broth and essences, honey, milk. I eliminate deserts served on restaurants because they are unnecessary to my survival, and make my own, I don't buy leather, wool, and fur. ALL my cosmetics and makeup are manufactured by companies that do not test on animals and DO NOT use animal ingredient, my bath products are also made by companies that do not test on animals and without animal ingredient, I take loong hours doing grocery because I have become a natural label reader, and do volunteer work for an animal rehab center (specialised on cats).

That's definitive enough for me.

If for someone's standards, I fall merely as vegetarian, It won't rile me to anger, If others call me vegan, It won't make me gloat.

I need not worry about occasional slips, because personally, when I made compassion my passion, I left no room for compromise.

[jennyL]

I don't eat meat, fish, dairy or eggs. I do buy non vegan foods for the people in my house who are not vegan. I don't really call myself a vegan, I don't worry about labels. People ask me if I'm vegan and sometimes I say yes. If you define the term vegan to a very strict extreme...then I don't think any of us can call ourselves vegan. What if you got on an airplane and the seats were leather, would you walk off and not take your trip because of that? What if you got sick and took some medicine, chances are that at some point the medicine you are taking somehow involved animal research. What if you use a public restroom and wash your hands with the soap provided, how do you know that soap is completely free of all animal products? I don't think anyone can say 100% positively that they absolutely never come in any contact with animal products. I think that by not eating meat, seafood, dairy or eggs, by not buying leather or fur and avoiding as much as possible products that were tested on animals...that is vegan to me.

[dreama]

I just..okay you're going to get me confused again. Do you have to think it's wrong to use animals to be a vegan? I mean obviously that has to be a part of it, but a lot of vegans are a-okay with guide dogs (I know, I know there's another thread about it), which is blatant, out-right using another creature so you can get around.

I have a guide dog called Jilli. I trained with her before I became vegan. I could I suppose give her up and use a long cane but I would really miss her and I think Jilli would also miss me as I am closer to Jilli then any human I know. I spend at least 2 hours a day letting her run free on walks and ball throwing. Both pass times she enjoys. She wags her tail a lot and that generally means a dog is happy.

I know some people might think a guide dog is unvegan. Maybe you are right but how many vegans own a car. Many animals are killed on roads so I would think cars are unvegan too but cars are easier to use then using public transport. Well for me a dog is much easier then using a long cane.

I don't eat eggs or anything else non vegan. I don't wear leather, wool or silk and I got 'freerangers' to make Jilli a non leather harness. The only other non vegan thing I do is I take thyroxine (in liquid form that is lactose free) and tegretol. I read that tegretol gives rats cancer and they still went ahead with it. It doesn't give me cancer. Shows how useless these animal tests are.

[dresdown]

somebody who does not eat animal products for moral, social, or religious motives

[Haniska]

saying" i am Christian,but i worship satan once a week"

It just doesnt work. You are either vegan,or you are not

HAHAHAHA. That is lovely.

[Mr Pearcore]

I don't eat meat, fish, dairy or eggs. I do buy non vegan foods for the people in my house who are not vegan. I don't really call myself a vegan, I don't worry about labels. People ask me if I'm vegan and sometimes I say yes. If you define the term vegan to a very strict extreme...then I don't think any of us can call ourselves vegan. What if you got on an airplane and the seats were leather, would you walk off and not take your trip because of that? What if you got sick and took some medicine, chances are that at some point the medicine you are taking somehow involved animal research. What if you use a public restroom and wash your hands with the soap provided, how do you know that soap is completely free of all animal products? I don't think anyone can say 100% positively that they absolutely never come in any contact with animal products. I think that by not eating meat, seafood, dairy or eggs, by not buying leather or fur and avoiding as much as possible products that were tested on animals...that is vegan to me.

I agree. I mean, the grease and other oils etc in all forms of automobiles would contain animal products. For those who say: "I don't own a car or my license" that would include buses and trains etc. I think I've posted in this thread a while ago. But yeah, to me a vegan is someone who does all they can to not use animal products or anything that has been involved in the exploitation and/or abuse of an animal in any shape or form. By 'does all they can' I mean to which is beyond your control. I don't mean to your personal limit: "Oh, I just love the taste of cheese so I sometimes eat it, but I still call myself a vegan" etc. But even though there would be in some way the use of something that has been in contact with an animal, if we do our best to not use animal products then there will hopefully one day be no need for any use of animals in any product therefore eliminating the chance of it being beyond our control. If ya know what I mean.

Also I don't use soap if I'm not sure it's vegan.
Ande I don't consider sitting on leather seats on a plane non-vegan.

[hedgefire]

Vegan by definition is someone who excludes animal by-products and products that have been tested on animals as far as is possible and practical.
It's up to the individual whether or not you are "extreme" about ingredients, or whether you take medicines that were tested on animals or not. But as far as honey goes, to ME and all the other vegans I've met, this is not a vegan food by any definition.

And, animalsvoice, I'm of the school that reads every ingredient list AND spends hours and hours every week spreading veganism. It's possible to be both, you know, although I'll admit it is tiring sometimes. Occasionally I just need to curl up on the sofa and eat "chocolate" and not have to deal with anyone who isn't vegan :P that DOES sound exclusionist but if you're coming in contact with carnivores who are more often than not aggressive - every day - you'll need to be reassured that you're not the only one, once in a while.

[Korn]

It's up to the individual whether or not you are "extreme" about ingredients, or whether you take medicines that were tested on animals or not.

If you use medicine and ingredients that are tested on animal contain animal products, I'd definitely say that you would take a step outside the definition of vegan if other options are possible. But of course, it's up to the individual to find out what's 'practical and possible' in a given situation - within reasonable limits.

But as far as honey goes, to ME and all the other vegans I've met, this is not a vegan food by any definition.

From what' I've read, when the word vegan was invented in the 1940's, and the founders of The Vegan Society had a discussion of what the definition should cover, honey was after a long discussion defined as not within the definition of what's vegan and what's not, which is why you probably won't meet vegans who use honey - if they did, they wouldn't have called themselves vegans!

[_placebo]

I define veganism as a lifestyle that somebody adopts which includes abstaining from animal foods and products as much as practical and possible. For example, no leather, fur, meat, eggs, whey or milk, animal-tested products, blah blah blah...we've heard it all. I've screwed up a few times, like when I ate something with 8th continent Soymilk in it (which for some reason is not vegan, I don't know why though).

[howdawg]

II guess i just wanted it to be made easier for me to be vegan because,yes,it means something to me to be able to use the label "vegan".But,on reflection and having read numerous posts on this msg board and on others,i have come to the conclusion that if you *vountarilly* consume/use an animal product (where there is no viable,practical alternitive) then you are not vegan. I believe veganism should be THAT strict.Of course,with regards to medication,car tyres,computers etc it can be nigh on impossible to avoid,but i trust that you get my drift.

I completely agree with you St George. It's as simple as that. If you voluntarilly eat steak once a year, you'll get no simpathy. Some people will say it's ok, but I don't think anyone would call you a vegan. Why should it be different for egg laden cake. If it is *@!!Voluntary!!@*... Not to say you're a horrible person, but... You knew what you were eating.

-The Duck

[gertvegan]

A vegan therefore eats a plant-based diet free from all animal products, including milk, eggs and honey. Most vegans do not wear leather, wool or silk.

I thought this sounded a little too dietary and unclear about the 'most'. Any thoughts?

[PygmyGoat]

^ I agree - it should read something more like 'a Vegan is a person who consciously abstains from consuming or wearing any animal product or by-product and who avoids animal cruelty as far as humanly possible'.

[twinkle]

I thought this sounded a little too dietary and unclear about the 'most'. Any thoughts?

I think it's to do with the amount of people who have wool and leather left over from before they went vegan and choose to continue to wear it for a variety of reasons.

[gertvegan]

Thats what I thought, perhaps a reasoning would have helped, or different words altogether. I'm surprised that it is on the website that it is.

[Corum]

One of the guys at work today, when I told him that I was organising a Clay Pigeon (Skeet) shooting lesson for myself and Hemlock said to me, "that's not a very vegan thing to do is it?". I almost spilled coffee all over my keyboard! To me, blowing bits of crockery out of the sky is much more preferable than shooting animals, etc. which my dad used to do years ago...