Vegan London, part 1

[gertvegan]

Vegan Style & Cuisine

Saturday 3 September 1 - 12:30pm - 4pm (Speaker 2pm)

Bourgeois Boheme and 222Veggie Vegan Restaurant, are co-hosting a vegan promotional event to showcase stylish vegan fashion and yummy vegan cuisine from around the world. You will have the opportunity to purchase stylish vegan footwear, bags, purses and more, taste a variety of delicious vegan dishes, and listen to an interesting presentation of an aspect of vegan life by a guest speaker.

Bourgeois Boheme - www.bboheme.com, 222 Veggie Vegan Restaurant - www.222veggievegan.com. Place: 222 Veggie Vegan Restaurant, 222 North End Road, West Kensington, W14 9NU.

RSVP: info@bboheme.com / 0207 602 9067. Cost: All this for only £5

[Kevster]

First time i've heard of 222, i'll be checking out that place next time i'm in Londres.

[gertvegan]

LONDON VEGANS MONTHLY MEETING: TALK BY ALISTAIR CURRIE FROM B.U.A.V.

'Vivisection in the 21st Century - and the Campaign Against It' is the title of this talk by the Campaigns Director of the British Union for the Abolition of Vivisection. Wed 27 July, 6.30pm to 9.30pm at the Community Rooms, Millman Street (entrance next to 38a), Bloomsbury, WC1. Admission free, but donations of money towards room hire and/or bringing vegan snacks to share would be appreciated. Free hot drinks provided. Newcomers welcome. No alcohol or smoking allowed, but nearby pub session afterwards is an option.

info@londonvegans.org.uk

[AbFab]

Sorry if this place has been mentioned before, but there are two (at least) all-you-can-eat vegan Thai buffet restaurants in London (Camden and off Tottenham Crt Rd respectively) called 'Tai'. It costs a fiver for all you can eat and although you have to pay something like 20p for water, it's still well worth a trip. Last time I went with some friends from America who're also vegan and we sat there for at least 3 hours just eating plate after plate of the stuff. The mock duck dim sum pancakes rule. I felt so sick, but in a good way.

Following up from jackxattack, there are indeed several more of these all-you-can-eat Oriental buffet establishments in London, I've already listed them on another thread but I'll detail them again now as they really belong here!:

Though not great for those not in or near London (UK), the following is a chain of eateries providing vegan organic Oriental cuisine, who provide wondrous food, buffet style. It’s a real bargain (£5-6, depending on what time you eat, or £3-4 for a takeaway box), and an utter treat. I love these places (some are slightly better than others, usually depending on size – the larger ones have more variety), but the small ones are still great. I’ve been to at least half of them, numerous times. Only complaint is that sometimes the food is not as hot (as in temperature not spiciness) as I’d like it to be, but it’s still delish.

Central London
Tai Buffet - 10 Greek Street, Soho, London, W1D 4DJ. (020) 7287 3730.
Joi Buffet - 14 Percy Street, (off Tottenham Court Road), London, W1T 1DR. (020) 7323 0981.
Wai - 32 Goodge Street, London, W1 2QJ. (020) 7637 4819.
Tai Veg - 3 Great Chapel Street (off Oxford Street), London, W1F 8FD. (020) 7439 0383.

North London
Tai Veg Noodle Bar - 11 Islington High Street, Islington London. (020) 7833 9399.
Tai Veg - 13 Islington High Street, Islington, London. (020) 7837 7767.
Buffet Veg - 271 Muswell Hill Broadway, London, N10 1DE. (020) 8442 0558.
CTV - 22 Golders Green Road, NW11. (020) 8201 8001.
Veg Veg - 6 Kentish Town Road, Camden, London, NW1 9NX. (020) 7284 4004.
Tai Veg Noodle Bar - 81 Kentish Town Road, NW1. (020) 7424 9008.

Just added August 2006:
Tai - 33 Old Compton Street, Soho. 0207 734 1380

I can't rave about these places enough; the food is excellent, good value, and 100% vegan! I do keep trying to get them to open up near me to save me the trip, but no joy as of yet! Go!

P.S. Just a note in case the proprietors are listening…
I went to the mothership restaurant (at least I believe it was) of all these smaller spin-off buffets, (Egerton Garden Mews, Knightsbridge) on several occasions – elegant décor, waiter service, slightly different dishes, bit more pricey, and was so sorry to see it change hands and become just another non-vegan restaurant. Would dearly love to see you open up again. Oh, and please bring one of your little buffet bars to Wimbledon, thank you.

[VeganJohn]

Following up from jackxattack, there ar indeed several more of these all-you-can-eat Oriental buffet establishments in London, I've already listed them on another thread but I'll detail them again now as they really belong here!:

I can't rave about these places enough; the food is excellent, good value, and 100% vegan! I do keep trying to get them to open up near me to save me the trip, but no joy as of yet! Go!

I recently went to the Tai buffet on Greek Street in Soho and it was FANTASTIC. I could eat there every day.

Like AbFab says, GO!

[Lilac Hamster]

Hi,

The Vegan Families 2nd Summer picnic will be held on Sunday the 21st August in Hyde Park, London, from 1pm, meeting at the bandstand near Hyde Park Corner.

Please bring some vegan food and/or drink to share.

Please let me on Lesley@vegan4life.org.uk know if you think you will be able to make it. Hope to see you there.

We might be doing some more videoing for a small film of vegan families for showing on Veggievision but that's completely optional for anyone who wants to take part in this.

We have these things regularly so please email me to be on the list to be invited every time,

Best Wishes

Lesley
Lesley@vegan4life.org.uk

[Marrers]

I have been to 222 Veggie Vegan once so far, in the evening. It is all vegan (apart from you can choose to have milk in your tea or coffee I think). I was very impressed with it and plan to go back very soon. I ate on my own so only tried one dish (pasta with mushrooms, in cashew sauce) but it was very good and the portion was huge! They do vegan alcohol too.
They do a £5 buffet during the day but it doesn't sound like the food is so interesting as the evening menu.

I have booked my ticket for the Dr Hadwen Gala Dinner - anyone else coming? I'm so excited, really enjoyed the Vegan Society Diamond Jubilee Ball last year so am looking forward to another posh do!

[gertvegan]

Vegan Style & Cuisine

Saturday 3 September 1 - 12:30pm - 4pm (Speaker 2pm)

Bourgeois Boheme and 222Veggie Vegan Restaurant, are co-hosting a vegan promotional event ..... and listen to an interesting presentation of an aspect of vegan life by a guest speaker.

Claudia from Animal Aid will be giving a quick talk.

[Gorilla]

i know it's been mentioned before but i went to the Tai vegan Chinese buffet last Friday and i had to say how great that place is!!! it felt so good to be able to go into a restaurant, and know i could eat absolutely EVERYTHING on the buffet!! i'd never been to a totally vegan place before, despite living in the veggie paradise that is Brighton

the food is delicious and great value...kind of weird seeing the meat-style soya pieces described as if they really were meat, and some people eating in there didn't seem to realise they were in a vegan restaurant

[AbFab]

the food is delicious and great value...kind of weird seeing the meat-style soya pieces described as if they really were meat, and some people eating in there didn't seem to realise they were in a vegan restaurant

I know! I take quite a lot of my non-veggie friends there, and most of them look at me piling up my plate and comment 'but you can't eat that!!!' and 'what are you doing???!!!'. They had one dish once that was actually too realistic for my liking and I had to keep checking that it really was vegan! Glad you enjoyed it. I was at Chi the day before you!

[Demon]

I went to 222 Veggie Vegan in West Kensington a few weeks ago when visiting the Hammersmith odeon.

Everything except optional milk in coffee is vegan.

I had seitan stroganoff (with cashew cream) and it was delicious.

http://www.222veggievegan.com/about.html

[Troutina]

i know it's been mentioned before but i went to the Tai vegan Chinese buffet last Friday and i had to say how great that place is!!! it felt so good to be able to go into a restaurant, and know i could eat absolutely EVERYTHING on the buffet!! i'd never been to a totally vegan place before, despite living in the veggie paradise that is Brighton

the food is delicious and great value...kind of weird seeing the meat-style soya pieces described as if they really were meat, and some people eating in there didn't seem to realise they were in a vegan restaurant

Can you please tell me where this is!!
I finally get to see my boyfriend after over a week without him ( ) and want to go somewhere for a nice dinner, this sounds lovely!
Is it cheap??

[Gorilla]

Hi Troutina, the vegan Chinese buffet is in Greek Street in Soho. i find the easiest way to get there is to get to Tottenham Court Road tube station, then go a little way along Charing Cross Rd, turn right into Manette St and then at the end of that road it's just round the corner on the left.

the buffet costs £6 for all you can eat and drinks are a couple of pounds each (i can recommend the Chinese beer!)

[Mr Flibble]

the buffet is £5 if you go on a weekday before about 6, the jasmine tea is £1 and they normally do free refils. In summer it's better value and more pleasent to get a large takeaway box (£4) and eat it in Soho Square just at the end of Greek Street, if you're lucky they'll give you a free cup of jasmine tea. The place itself is part of a chain, and there are better ones around London than the greek street one. Just off TCR are two, one up by goodge street that's about the same size as Tai, and one called Joi back down towards the tube station (round the corner from HSBC), which in my opnion is the best (bigger range of food, more seating, ikea decor just like home ).

[AbFab]

Just a quick note about the Chi chain. They bizarrely do seem to have a few teas on offer which have HONEY in them. I have raised this with them a couple of times, but not really gotten anywhere. I do hope this does not mean any of their food has honey in it!!!

[Mr Flibble]

they also have free sweets in some of them when you pay that have geletin in!

[AbFab]

Humph! I asked about those and the guy said somewhat hesitantly that they WERE vegan. However, I was unconvinced so didn't eat them. I think there are some language barriers to be overcome here as well.

[Mr Flibble]

we'll probably find sometime in the future that it isn't seiten after all

[AbFab]

Don't say that!!!!!
Actually, I did sample one dish there once that tasted SO realistically like meat I couldn't actually eat it.

[Mr Flibble]

ditto

[Stormypagan]

I used to go to the vegan Thai buffet a lot when I lived near London, and used to introduce folk to it!! Damm good price for the food too. It is delicious .... oooooo mouth watering at the thought of it now :0) And the realistic meat thing is spooky isn't it but then gluten products are!! Didn't know that they had gelatine in some of the desserts though :0( Mind you never had one as I always over do the first course hehehe!!

Love and light
Xxxx Stormy xxxX

[AbFab]

We were talking about the hard-boiled sweets they give you with the bill containing gelatine, not the dessert/afters/pudding type of sweet. I am also too full to ever have dessert anyway, but I know the desserts they used to have on offer (I have not looked at the menu in ages) were dairy based, like ice cream! Very odd.

[Stormypagan]

We were talking about the hard-boiled sweets they give you with the bill containing gelatine, not the dessert/afters/pudding type of sweet.

DOH!!! whoops, sorry got completely confuddled hehehe

[AbFab]

Some ice cream contains gelatine, doesn't it? So you are probably right too!

[Troutina]

Hi Troutina, the vegan Chinese buffet is in Greek Street in Soho. i find the easiest way to get there is to get to Tottenham Court Road tube station, then go a little way along Charing Cross Rd, turn right into Manette St and then at the end of that road it's just round the corner on the left.

the buffet costs £6 for all you can eat and drinks are a couple of pounds each (i can recommend the Chinese beer!)

Ohhh I thought this was in Brighton!
Thanks very much anyway, it'll be good to know if I'm in London.
Which is almost never...!

[gertvegan]

From www.veganvillage.co.uk

Free Vegan Food Fayre in London :: help needed

Vegan Campaigns has a free vegan food fayre coming up in Camden on 10 December. If you are interested in helping out either before or on the day please email info@vegancampaigns.org.uk for more details.

[Kevster]

So popped into London a couple of days ago and got myself a new pair of running shoes,
Also made it along to 222, that’s the second to last 2 inverted to make a heart shape ahhhhhhh.
Had the buffet lunch which consisted of five dishes, I tried all five and they were good, there were also salads on hand too. The veggie stew was excellent and I could have made do with that, there was sweetcorn quiche, chilli, and cottage pie style dish too. All for a fiver. Pleasant surroundings quite smart. Evening meals are more expensive but looked pretty good.

Also went for ales in the afternoon to the Citte of Yorke, High Holburn, nice pub that, little areas where people can have a quiet chat, uppish chap behind the bar thought I was drinking my own ales, (Pitfields finest) at our table, which was a little strange as I was at the bar ordering two pints at the time, I put him in his place.

[Kevster]

From Le Guardienne:

'222 Veggie Vegan
222 North End Road, W14 (Tel: 020-7381 2322)
Daily 12noon-3.30pm; 5.30pm-10.30pm

A friend over from New York, an habitué of the wonderful Candle 79 and Hangawi there, is eager to try this vegan joint in West Kensington. The room is bright but is already looking a little tired (it hasn't even been open a year) and the menu seems full of dishes with ill-matched ingredients. Pancakes with tofu cottage cheese and broccoli, gasping for breath under a pimento-based sauce, with sautéed new potatoes on the side, is a full-on carb-attack, the flavours muddled and indistinguishable. The chef's special, a West Indian vegetable stir-fry is better, but it still paddles in a moat of very un-West Indian olive oil. Service is of the kind typically found in London: well-intentioned but not awfully effective. The lunchtime buffet goes for just a fiver, making it difficult to be too critical of that.

High point Good selection of beers and smoothies
Low point Lacks courage of its conviction
Capacity 30
Price per head buffet lunch £5; à la carte £28
Wine list £10.50
Vegetarian 10/10
Service 6/10
Music World
Value for money 8/10
Style Too bad'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguide/f...601667,00.html

[Tofu Monster]

i recently went to http://www.nealsyardsaladbar.co.uk/ in london. it advertises itself online as "a landmark for vegan/vegetarian aficionados". so i was bit surprised to find that they actually sell meat dishes as well these days! gah!

i was appalled that i'd gone out of my way to find the damn place in london, only to find that i was sitting next to a freezer with fucking ham and prawns in it!

so what did i do? well i put on my very cross face, stood up... ... then sat down again and sheepishly got on with my meal like the inequate little tosser that i am.

it must be wonderful to have at least a shred of self-confidence in a situation like that - you know, you go for a vegan meal, notice half way through that you are sat next to a load of fucking meat, and actually complain or ask to be moved or... something!

so i shan't be going back there again anyway.

[Tree Of Life]

I used to go to Neil's Yard not long after in first opened in the early 1980s when I lived in London and it was totally vegetarian then. They even offered vegan meals which was a bit of a rarity back then, so it's a great shame to see them selling meat products now. There is no indication on the website that I can see to say they sell meat products. They come over as completely vegetarian. If I'd gone out of my way to look the place up as you did tofu monster, I would have complained.

Unfortunately I've heard of a few once vegetarian eating places that now sell meat dishes. It's a mystery why they want to do this as there are more and more vegetarians around these days, but it's obviously a financial decision.

[puffin]

i recently went to http://www.nealsyardsaladbar.co.uk/ in london. it advertises itself online as "a landmark for vegan/vegetarian aficionados". so i was bit surprised to find that they actually sell meat dishes as well these days! gah!

i was appalled that i'd gone out of my way to find the damn place in london, only to find that i was sitting next to a freezer with fucking ham and prawns in it!

so what did i do? well i put on my very cross face, stood up... ... then sat down again and sheepishly got on with my meal like the inequate little tosser that i am.

it must be wonderful to have at least a shred of self-confidence in a situation like that - you know, you go for a vegan meal, notice half way through that you are sat next to a load of fucking meat, and actually complain or ask to be moved or... something!

so i shan't be going back there again anyway.

Lol. I dont blame you for not going back. Where did they seat you, in the larder or something?

Rob, i am pleased to hear you got a edable meal in a not veggie place.
Me and my friend went out for a meal at the weekend and the people were very good at giving us what we asked for and they did seem to understand. I had a plain jacket potato with beans, salad and mushrooms you know the usual vegan meal but it was pretty good and i felt confident that they had listened.

[Tofu Monster]

Lol. I dont blame you for not going back. Where did they seat you, in the larder or something?

thinking about it, they sat us in the crappest location they had. it's situated in neal's yard, a small olde worlde square in a london backstreet and it seems that over the years they must have acquired premises round the square as they've become vacant, as it seems to spread over a few premises around the square.

we asked for a table for two and were put in a small brightly lit room that was more like the deli section at sainsburys with a couple of tables thrown in, and behind us were the said fridges, which we noticed later had meat in.

however, what pissed me off most was that when i went to use their loo, in a building across the yard, it was upstairs in this attractive restaurant bit, lit with candles, nice art on the walls and only a couple of the tables occupied.

yet we were stuck in a brightly lit room next to a deli counter, a table with a man playing with an annoying baby, another table with an employee furiously punching numbers into a till non-stop, and a fridge with meat in!

i can only assume i emanate an aura which says 'feel free to take advantage of this pointless twat'.

[catalina]

a table with a man playing with an annoying baby,

I didn't know there was any other kind of baby.

[Lilac Hamster]

I don't think anyone has mentioned the Riverside Vegetaria in Kingston or the Veggie Inn in Harrow.

Veggie Inn is an almost totally vegan Chinese, we were lucky enough to live a few minutes away and used to get lots of deliveries from them, and the Riverside Vegetaria which is not far from where we live now is very vegan-friendly and excellent, lots of vegan choices, even better than many of the veggie restaurants in central London in my opinion.

Lesley

[Troutina]

Mmm I had a Red Veg in B Town the other day, the Chilliburger.
Though I must say it was not exactly CHILLI.
But still, yummy scrumboes.

[puffin]

i can only assume i emanate an aura which says 'feel free to take advantage of this pointless twat'.

TM please dont say things like that.

Sounds like you had a pretty crap table though. I hate being shoved in a corner where you can hardly move your chair in or out. Or stuck in a really busy part.
Hope you had a lovely time at your dads

[Lilac Hamster]

I didn't know there was any other kind of baby.

Hmmm, maybe more restaurants should introduce "children" and "no children" areas, to keep us all happy, like some have smoking and no smoking (although it's debatable how well it actually works with smoking and no smoking with the smoke drifting, I suppose kids noise drifts too).

I say this from the point of view of a parent, because like you and Tofu Monster don't much like being around kids (I know you put a smiley but I have had some bad experiences of this over the years), I also would not want to be sitting near to the type of ppl who tut tut with disapproval at kids. It's almost as bad as being near ppl smoking and I feel very uncomfortable around it, I do not see why I should be treated like a social outcast or leper for having children and prefer to be around child-tolerant ppl.

If you don't like to be near someone with a baby or child, my advice would be go out in an evening to a restaurant when there is lot less likelihood of there being kids about! But TM can't expect there not to be families with young children around at many of these places in the day.
Sorry but the two of you just pushed one of my hot buttons (I started up vegan families get-togethers mainly because so many veggie and vegan groups at the time were not family-friendly although a few more are now).

I agree about the meat in the freezer though, the NYSB website definitely makes them sound exclusively vegetarian, so something should have been said to them about that being offensive and I do sympathise with you on that.

Lesley

[catalina]

Oh Lilac, look at it from this point of view. If I have paid my babysitter a fortune so I can have a rare child-free night, in an adult setting, don't you think it's a bit unfair to have my night and expensive dinner ruined? I'm not sure, but I think Tofu Monster also has children.

At any rate, I would never dream of tut-tutting people with children, as you say, or give them dirty looks. Seems like you've had some bad experiences with this. Chill out, man, I was just kidding.

[Lilac Hamster]

I actually agree with you about restaurants in the evening, they should be an adult setting at those times, sorry I assumed that TM was there in the daytime when he found someone's baby annoying.

We got a woman giving us and the kids dirty looks at, of all places, the London Vegan Festival recently, when we were in the eating area. I don't know what others expect, but we just don't see why we should expect that kind of attitude there! The LVF has become very family-friendly in recent years thanks to the excellent organisers making massive improvements year after year to welcome everyone, and we don't need a few ppl spoiling it like that for vegan and aspiring-vegan families. People like that should keep away if they can't be more tolerant. Glad to hear you would not behave that way but plenty of ppl do!

Lesley

[catalina]

This is going a bit off topic, but if people ever give you funky looks because of your babies/kids, just tell them "You were a crying baby once too!!" There.

[puffin]

We got a woman giving us and the kids dirty looks at, of all places, the London Vegan Festival recently, when we were in the eating area. I don't know what others expect, but we just don't see why we should expect that kind of attitude there! The LVF has become very family-friendly in recent years thanks to the excellent organisers making massive improvements year after year to welcome everyone, and we don't need a few ppl spoiling it like that for vegan and aspiring-vegan families. People like that should keep away if they can't be more tolerant. Glad to hear you would not behave that way but plenty of ppl do!

Lesley

Dont worry to much about it L H. I would just smile back if someone was giving my kids dirty looks, or just give them a funny look back if they were really annoying. Some people dont like kids and thats fair enough. I didnt like kids that much before i had my own either.
TMs kid has grown up now so maybe wants a little peace and quite. I have a long time till that happens

[Tree Of Life]

I phoned up Neil's Yard Salad Bar and asked them if they are totally vegetarian and the person answering said "yes, vegetarian and vegan' I then asked to make absolutely sure if they sold any meat products at all and the person said no.

If I were you Tofu Monster I'd phone them and ask what the meat in the fridge was doing there and that as they advertise themselves as a vegetarian restaurant they shouldn't have meat on the premesis as it does cause offence. If they were a Jewish or Muslim eating place they wouldn't have pork which would be offensive to Jews and Muslims, so having meat in a vegetarian restaurant is just as offensive to us. The phone number is on their website.

[Tree Of Life]

thinking about it, they sat us in the crappest location they had. it's situated in neal's yard, a small olde worlde square in a london backstreet and it seems that over the years they must have acquired premises round the square as they've become vacant, as it seems to spread over a few premises around the square.

we asked for a table for two and were put in a small brightly lit room that was more like the deli section at sainsburys with a couple of tables thrown in, and behind us were the said fridges, which we noticed later had meat in.

however, what pissed me off most was that when i went to use their loo, in a building across the yard, it was upstairs in this attractive restaurant bit, lit with candles, nice art on the walls and only a couple of the tables occupied.

yet we were stuck in a brightly lit room next to a deli counter, a table with a man playing with an annoying baby, another table with an employee furiously punching numbers into a till non-stop, and a fridge with meat in!

Just had a thought after writing the above post. Were you actually in Neil's yard salad bar Tofu Monster? I know that sounds a daft question, but as it is spread over quite an area do you think there could have been a misunderstanding and you could somehow have been plonked in another restaurant in the yard by mistake?

[Tofu Monster]

yes i was definitely in the right place. neals yard salad bar. i ordered the brazilian feijoada meal off the menu. it's even advertised on their website, and i doubt a nearby restaurant would also sell that same obscure meal by coincidence! i can only say what i saw, which is that there were definitely prawns and some kind of ham/bacon in the freezer! i may ring them but not today since you already did and i don't want to speak to the same person you did. thanks for your interest though. we'll get to the bottom of this, sherlock!

[Tree Of Life]

we'll get to the bottom of this, sherlock!

We will Dr Watson

[AbFab]

I went to The Gate in Hammersmith a few weeks ago, lovely food, gorgeous old building (converted church), I had a lovely night. Not the cheapest veggie place I have ever been to, and not the greatest selection of vegan options either to be honest, but worth a visit anyway if you're in the area.

[Kevster]

Dropped into Pogo café yesterday, a little later than planned, as I over ran on a beer run to Pitfields beer shop in Shoreditch (moving soon). Still managed a burrito and a chocolate biscuit/cake take out, both very good and topped off with a banana milk shake. I managed to also pick up a couple of little additional Christmas type pressies too.

Well worth a visit.

[cedarblue]

anyone any personal recommendations for a good vegan eatery in chinatown, london??

[Skajen]

not in china town but there is a VEGAN chinese all u can eat off oxford street *tries to remember where*

[Mr Flibble]

Chinese food only? Within soho itself, tai on greek street is alright (certainly good value for money), dependant on what time of day you go (go at either lunch or dinner as the food goes cold). It gets a bit samey if you go enough times, I try to avoid these days! For non chinese food there's Mildreds on a street I forget the name of (north west of soho, near carnaby street. I'm not personally a fan of Mildreds, but some people like it), fresh and wild on brewer street (2 storey health food store where you can eat in, but is a little overpriced), red veg on dean street and beatroute on berwick street (where i was last saturday). There's a Moaz near the east end of Brewer Street, but I've never been to Moaz in the UK so can't comment. You can eat at all except mildreds for under a tenner, although beatroute and red veg have limitted seating (though it's usually alright). There's more choice a bit further afield, if you feel like spending more money on a sit down meal The Mango Tree by the edge of Buckingham Palace is nice (it *is* walking distance from Soho and I've done it before, but taking the tube is better!). Not a vegena/vegetarian restaurant but they will do if you ask.