Were you spanked as a child?

[cedarblue]

but after i had actually send them to their rooms a couple of times for hours, they realised that i was a much nicer person

yes, this is a popular method i think. my problem with it is that the child can then associate being in its bedroom with punishment and being naughty.
sometimes the child refuses to stay in the bedroom, continually comes out and has to be taken back many, many times often in a state of complete tantrum - how then is the child kept in the room? with a lock on??? that would be unacceptable to me too.

tricky issues these are - good we can discuss them though - good to get others opinions and experiences..

[Lorrs]

My parents never smacked me. My granny once smacked me when I was about 5 or 6, I screamed blue murder, didn't speak to her for 2 weeks and she never done it again. I was usually pretty well behaved and when I wasn't it usually meant I was grounded, had a toy taken away or lost out on pocket money that week. Even when those things happened I was always given the choice "If you keep doing that, you'll be grounded for a week" so I was always aware of the consequences.

I'm really against people smacking their children, I don't think there is any need to be going around hitting anyone never mind your own child. The majority of kids who I see getting smacked never seem to bother because it has become the norm for them.

[Yoggy]

if you have issues this big, i think you may need to consult someone who knows about child behavior - a lot of times when the kid does not response to anything, it is because the child is not capable of it - and it takes a lot of work to fix that.

I wouldn't say that these are big issues, because it seems to happen to every parent on the Natural Parenting forum I visit. Every one of them is against spanking their kids, and it seems like every one of them has troubles with their kids being little devils who never listen to anyone. I'm definitely not saying spanking is ok, but I can certainly see why many parents do it in the heat of the moment when the child will not respond to anything else.

.... i was babysitting them for almost 3 years, and this continued, although their mother could not get them to behave.

In my (limited) experience, children almost always behave better for other people than for their own parents. I used to babysit 2 children who actually raced each other to bed when I said it was bedtime instead of complaining about having to go to bed. They were so well-behaved all the time, I couldn't believe it, and told their mother what angels they were. She said, "Yeah, too bad you don't see them when they're alone with me and my husband". And this is a mother who never hit her kids, always gave warnings of consequences, and followed through with consequences (such as being grounded or staying in their rooms, etc). I guess kids just get excited when someone "new" or different from their parents comes over, so they forget about fighting and wreaking havoc all over the house, because they're enjoying the experience of someone being with them who is different from their parents. To this day, I still behave worse around my mother than I do around strangers, not because my mom could never get me to behave, but because I feel that I can be myself around her and not have to worry about what she'll think of me. But I'm more shy around strangers to say or do things that I'd do around only my mother.

Also, on a more interesting note, those 2 "perfect" kids I babysat are now 14 and 12, and the 14 yr old has come home drunk more than once, and the 12 yr old has stayed out all night without phoning his mom to say where he was. Then there's my sister and me, who were spanked quite often as children, and neither of us has ever been drunk (and we're now 25 and 27!), and we never stayed out past curfew as teenagers..... of course that could be a very rare and isolated occurrance. I have no idea what the trends are on how different discipline styles affect the way children end up when they're adults, but I'd like to see the statistics.

[cedarblue]

children almost always behave better for other people than for their own parents.

true.......

Also, on a more interesting note, those 2 "perfect" kids I babysat are now 14 and 12, and the 14 yr old has come home drunk more than once, and the 12 yr old has stayed out all night without phoning his mom to say where he was. Then there's my sister and me, who were spanked quite often as children, and neither of us has ever been drunk (and we're now 25 and 27!), and we never stayed out past curfew as teenagers..... of course that could be a very rare and isolated occurrance. I have no idea what the trends are on how different discipline styles affect the way children end up when they're adults, but I'd like to see the statistics.

interesting.....

[Enchantress]

I was beaten on numerous occasions by my dad as a child. I got drunk for the first time when I was eleven and lost my virginity when I was 13, so I don't really think spanking is any way to stop your child becoming a "teenage tearaway" .

[Yogini]

I was spanked twice. The first time I totally deserved it and don't my blame my mom one bit. The second time I didn't really do anything that wrong (sat on the bumper of my dad's truck), was just imitating what I'd seen my older brother do two minutes earlier, and my dad was just in a bad mood. It didn't hurt much, but it upset me anyway. When I brought it up years later he claimed he didn't remember it, admitted that "if it did happen" he was probably just in a bad mood, and refused to apologize.

[Enchantress]

"this morning he drove his toy car into my legs when I was getting the washing out of the washing machine and he really hurt me. (it's quite large you sit in it, can't have it outside as we have a steep block and there is no brakes) I took the car and put it up high in the garage and explained calmly why etc has absolutely no effect he just continues his rampage with other things. Firm voice... logical explanations etc no effect...ignoring...no effect Diversion, humour NOTHING works even yelling...no effect. Ashamed to say lost it few weeks ago and for the first time ever smacked once on the leg...no effect. This is from a little boy who was always this gentle, loving, fiesty fun, high spirited honey."

This kind of thing makes me scared to become a parent!!! How do you deal with something like this without smacking them to get their attention and make them stop their behaviour???

If the mother in question tried smacking her kid, and it had no effect, why do you think smacking would/might help improve the situation? There are ways to get a child's attention without resorting to smacking. You could take hold of the child and force them to face you whilst you spoke to them, for example.

Come to think of it, I was hit more then my siblings when we were growing up, and I'm the one who's had the most problems (depression, anxiety, self harm, school phobia etc.) as we've gotten older.

[puffin]

I agree Enchantress. My eldest brother was hit the most and he had a terrible time through his teens and early adulthood. He was pretty well behaved but found it hard to trust people and didnt know how to connect with people.
I spent years getting my life in order thanks to my mums violence and explosive personality. I am not saying that the odd smack from a parent is going to make a child seek councilling but inflicting pain on a defencless child is wrong.
I hate seeing parents hit there children in public. It makes me really upset. I think the constant "im going to smack you in a minute" 2 minutes later when the kid is still being a pain "i am going to smack you in a minute" lol, doesnt seem to work to well.

[Jjt]

I was spanked as a child and I think my Dad might have continued it as long as he could but I just got too old and rebellious and wouldn't let him do that any more.

I think it's fine to spank your kids. I think they should be spanked so that it hurts. Real bad. I think if my dad has spanked me harder I would have been more obedient. Some people might think it's old fashioned and you should never hit your kids but I think that's totally wrong. Sometimes you just have to beat the evil out of them. I think if it you raise your children and you never feel that you have to spank them they're probably being spoiled, because all children have those points less or more where they're just stubborn.

My dad used to take me into his bedroom and He would sit there and talk to me alot of the time beforehand and tll me why I'm receiving the punishment, and then he would spank me and try to give me a hug afterwards, but alot of the time especially towards my later childhood I wouldn't hug him. He made it alot of times into this big emotional deal and it really felt sick. This had nothing to do with simply spanking me though.

I look back on it now and I think that really messed me up bad. I didn't have a real close relationship with my Dad or Mom (closer with my Dad though) and
all the talking and hugging mixed in with the spanking just really messed me up. I think I have some deep down mental problems because of this perhaps where you mix punishment with love, ( in a bad way).

I think Dads who spank of smack thier kids should just be a man and give them thier welts and give them some space so they can recover and deal with it on thier own, and not smother them. Kids need thier space just like anybody. My Mom and Dad didn't give me enough space, and never really sypathized with that or my need to deal with things on my own and not push me where it hurts if you know what I mean.

Some years ago I got into a fight with my Dad and I was just wrong and I don't remember all the details but I remember I got so upset I challenged him to a fight. He had never punched me before but this time he did, he punched me right in my face. I remember when he did that, all that rebelliousness and nasty attitude I had just left.

[Poison Ivy]

I think it's fine to spank your kids. I think they should be spanked so that it hurts. Real bad. I think if my dad has spanked me harder I would have been more obedient. Some people might think it's old fashioned and you should never hit your kids but I think that's totally wrong. Sometimes you just have to beat the evil out of them. I think if it you raise your children and you never feel that you have to spank them they're probably being spoiled, because all children have those points less or more where they're just stubborn.

Being stubborn isn't being evil....it's just testing the boundaries which is normal and healthy and it certainly doesn't warrant being beaten especially to the level you're advocating - because that's so far into being physical abuse it's frightening.

I think Dads who spank of smack thier kids should just be a man and give them thier welts and give them some space so they can recover and deal with it on thier own, and not smother them. Kids need thier space just like anybody. My Mom and Dad didn't give me enough space, and never really sypathized with that or my need to deal with things on my own and not push me where it hurts if you know what I mean.

I think Dads who beat their children and leave welts don't deserve to be a parent and that child would be better off being removed from such a violent, abusive family unit and placed somewhere with people who will love, respect and value them.

Some years ago I got into a fight with my Dad and I was just wrong and I don't remember all the details but I remember I got so upset I challenged him to a fight. He had never punched me before but this time he did, he punched me right in my face. I remember when he did that, all that rebelliousness and nasty attitude I had just left.

If my parents had done that to me it wouldn't have been rebelliousness that left, it would have been me.

[Korn]

I think they should be spanked so that it hurts. Real bad. I think if my dad has spanked me harder I would have been more obedient.

Jjt, you just got banned. No propaganda for violence is allowed here - especially not violence towards children.

[scarlett]

Sometimes you just have to beat the evil out of them

This just made me feel sick - my mother had this attitude, and funnily enough was a "christian" too, 14 years have passed since I ran out at 17 and I still have nightmares and serious emotional problems

[harpy]

I think Dads who spank of smack thier kids should just be a man

There isn't anything manly about hitting people, never mind children. I agree a parental mixture of violence and affection is unhealthy but it would be better to drop the violence and keep the affection rather than the other way round.

I'm sorry Jjd is banned, because he sounds as if he has things he needs to talk about, but we certainly shouldn't be advocating violence here.

Sorry to hear about your experience, scarlett. It was brave of you to escape when you were so young.

[Korn]

I'm sorry Jjd is banned, because he sounds as if he has things he needs to talk about

I agree - I'm sorry too... but he doesn't seem ready for this site. I know he wants to live according to the Bible, but if he wants to participate here, he must first try to behave according to our basic rules against spreading negativity, going off-topic, preaching and promoting non-vegan stuff like encouraging parents to 'beat the evil' out of their kids... I'm simply not interested in running a site for people who are against harming animals but where people are allowed to suggest that kids 'should be spanked so that it hurts. Real bad.'

[cvC]

With all due respect and also remembering your kindness to me on this issue, I don't think Jjt should have been banned for expressing his view on this topic and urge you to reconsider, Korn. He is a vegan, after all, only 21 if I remember rightly, and hopefully time will mellow his attitude on the subject discussed and which he expressed without the swear words and other crudeness that has sometimes come from other members. I think it's worth remembering that, while the coporal punishment of children is banned in some if not all Scandinavian countries, it isn't in the U.S.

It's a while since I've read the New Testament, Jjt, but I can't think of anywhere in it where the physical punishment of children is prescribed and consider these verses from the epistle to the Hebrews as something of a condemnation of it:

"9Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

"10For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness."

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...r=12&version=9

[Korn]

He is a vegan

No, his not. A vegan is against harming and hurting animals - and 'human animals' is no exception. Do you suggest that a vegan can be against spanking an animal and pro spanking a human child?

If it's illegal to use violence against adults, but legal to use it against children in US, I see it as yet another reason to promote non-violence towards children, and definitely not as a reason to include using violence against children as something that may or may not be part of a vegan lifestyle/viewpoint.

[Pisces]

I feel that Korn was right to ban him. In my opinion, Jjt struck me as contradictory to vegan principles---that advocation of physical punishment being most blatant. Additionally, I was quite bothered by a post that he put in the veganic thread about dealing with slugs (it struck me as very speciesist).

Whether some of his intentions may be okay (and as unfortunate as it seems that he may have/had some unresolved troubles of his own)---those posts that he made were unacceptable in my opinion (no matter where he comes from). His post(s) went against one of the main vegan principles---"reduce suffering"/"non-violence".

Therefore, I stand firm saying that Korn made a wise and logical choice to ban him.

[cvC]

There's an established member of the forum (and who I also find quite likeable) who expressed a similar view to Jjt's on page three of this thread - what do you think should be done or have been done about that, Pisces? I could also say something similar in relation to the circumcision thread and won't go searching for the post you mentioned about slugs for the moment, but don't we all eat food that has been produced by farmers who kill lots of slugs and other things too? I've yet to make the transition from using leather shoes and so on, much as I'm conscous of a growing disgust about doing so and don't plan to get any more, but am a vegan in my diet and consider this to be the cornerstone of being one.

[harpy]

I don't think anyone else has been advocating beating children until they have welts, although some would say that that's just a difference of degree.

Perhaps Korn will let Jjt come back if he wants to and if he agrees to stick to the rules.

[puffin]

This just made me feel sick - my mother had this attitude, and funnily enough was a "christian" too, 14 years have passed since I ran out at 17 and I still have nightmares and serious emotional problems

Dont let remarks like that upset you scarlett. I refuse to read it now as i put up with the same from my mum. I left at 17 to, not something i choose to re live. He is just attention seeking so dont worry about it ok ((hugs)) and if you want to off load just PM me X

[harpy]

It's marvellous that so many people who have been ill-treated as children manage to understand what has happened to them, and become determined to prevent it from happening to other people.

But it's understandable that some people feel that because their parents have done something to them it must be in some way OK - that's why abusers tend to have been abused themselves in childhood, I suppose

[eclectic_one]

I'm a christian and it makes me ill when other christians use biblical verses--especially "spare the rod and spoil the child" --to OK their violence toward children or animals. I personally do NOT believe in spanking children or hitting animals. I don't have children, but I have never used physical punishment on my companion animals as I personally think it's the least effective form of discipline you can use. I was spanked as a child and I don't think it left me emotionally scarred, but I do think that it made violence seem more "justifiable" for many years.

My educational background is in psychology and I agree with the majority of pediatricians, psychologists, and psychiatrists that physical violence (even in the form of spanking) is the least effective way to discipline children and generally not a good idea. Behaviorists have especially listed the reasons that physical punishment doesn't work well, but others have added on over the years: 1) it brings up negative emotions in the child, thus limiting their ability to "learn" anything from being spanked (if they're sad or angry, they're only going to think of the spanking and not the intended message), 2) you only behave if you think the punisher will know (i.e., if you leave home, you know your parents can't spank you, so you go "hog wild" once you get away), 3) it teaches the child that violence is OK in certain circumstances--when "justified" (since most parents say, "this will teach you" or the like, then the kid thinks there are justifiable reasons for him/her to be violent--such as hitting another kid who took a toy the child wants to play with--because most of us will rationalize how what we did was "right"), 4) it only causes momentary compliance (the kid might stop for a bit, but will most likely go back to the behavior at some point), 5) it actually teaches kids to lie (they want to avoid the physical punishment, so one way is to deny doing the punishable behavior), and 6) the more physical punishment a child is exposed to, the more likely they are to display mental problems (depression, violent behavior, poor academics).

I know that when my dog was a puppy, I did not use physical punishment, but I did punish his housebreaking accidents by putting him in his enclosure when he'd have an accident--against what I'd read from animal trainers--and he did exactly what everything I'd read said he would: instead of stopping his accidents, he just started trying to hide when he was going to do "it." [I'd see him start to squat, then he'd glance at me, run down the hall and into another room where he'd poop in the floor.] When I started following the advice of just praising him when he "went" outside, he was housebroken in a matter of a week or so--while I'd been trying my "punishment" approach for over a month! In other words, positive reinforcement works MUCH better than punishment--even non-physical punishment.

That's not to say that punishment should never be used, but I do think that physical punishment is rarely necessary. I think I agree with Adler's view of that...only when the child's actions would cause an even worse physical pain should you use it. For example, if your child starts to reach up and is about to touch the hot eye of a stove, you should smack the hand away and say, "no, that will hurt!" So in that situation you are directly associating pain with the pain-inducing object w/o letting them be severely injured. Now it's not a painful thing (more annoying to my bunnies), but an example from my own life is when my bunnies try to chew on electrical cords--I try to keep them wrapped up and out of the way, but it has happened on occasion--and I squirt them with a water bottle. They hate that, so it is punishment, but if they don't learn to avoid electrical cords, they might be electrocuted

Anyway, I guess I'm on a tangent 'cause just yesterday I had a couple of my students go off on how important spanking is and how kids become brats if they aren't spanked. I personally think what leads to brats is permissive parenting (those parents that treat their kids like adults even if they're 2 because they want to just be the kids' friend), over-protectiveness (being so afraid of the world that they don't let the kid find out what the real world is like at all), and lack of discipline--which should not be spanking but there should be some consequences for bad behavior (like no gameboy for a week).

[sugarmouse]

Christianity aside that is a guy with serious issues!
I always say when questioned that I am not a vegan, because with the exception of those who care for animals, I hate the humanrace with a passion...

[fiamma]

He is a vegan, after all, only 21 if I remember rightly, and hopefully time will mellow his attitude on the subject discussed and which he expressed without the swear words and other crudeness that has sometimes come from other members. I think it's worth remembering that, while the coporal punishment of children is banned in some if not all Scandinavian countries, it isn't in the U.S.

Just because corporal punishment isn't banned in the States doesn't make it right, cvC. While don't think it's wrong to smack a child, there's a big difference between smacking and "beating the evil" out of a child so that it leaves welts. That's advocating a kind of violence which JjT himself admits leaves emotional scars, although one which he - contradictorially - continues to advocate. Simply being vegan is not enough to continue using this site, if the user in question expresses those kind of viewpoints. Would you consider the same behaviour acceptable towards, say, a dog who continued to pee on the carpet? I very much doubt it.

[fiamma]

I've been reflecting since I wrote my last post, and if I ever had a child I doubt I could ever smack them, as I don't think it achieves anything.

[akaredarcher]

I'm a christian and it makes me ill when other christians use biblical verses--especially "spare the rod and spoil the child" --to OK their violence toward children or animals. I personally do NOT believe in spanking children or hitting animals.

Amen sister! (Sorry, couldn't help it).

I was dismayed to see some of the things that he wrote in a number of messages. However, perhaps letting him still be able to read the messages whilst being barred from posting would have been more beneficial to him?

Anyway, I also do not believe in spanking children. I interpret "spare the rod and spoil the child" as an exhortation to discipline your children and train them up in the way they should go. Taking this in the context of the rest of Scripture this would be disciplining your child from a place of love. I simply cannot see how there's any love in causing your child (or companion animal for that matter) physical pain. We have effectively used a kind of 'time-out' with my mother's new kitten who can get a bit overexcited at times and start biting people that she's playing with. It's been very interesting to watch actually.

[Roxy]

Studies have shown (and don't ask me to quote, because I can't remember exactly where I read it) that people who commit violence towards animals are more likely to commit violence against people.

I bet it works the other way around too.

[cobweb]

I was spanked and shaken as a child/baby, slapped round the face, and once only got punched by my dad (it was generally my mum who was nasty). They are/were very 'respectable/middle class', etc, but it just shows what goes on in people's homes .

I did spank my son a couple of times upon my mother's advice - it was at a time when he was giving me lots of problems and I lost confidence in my parenting abilities. I regret those actions probably more than anything I ever did in my whole life, it sickens me to remember......... . I still apologise to him now.

Once I actually caught my own father smacking my son when he was a toddler, for a VERY 'minor misdemeanour' (not that he should have smacked him anyway). I thought I would rant and rave but in the end I just took my son and sat quietly til I calmed down (I was staying with them at the time) and made a firm decision to never trust my parents again.

Sadly, re what you said, Roxy, my mum once drowned my pet Guinea Pig so I'm sure that there is a connection there, too .

[Marrers]

When as an adult I complained or commented about being hit as a child my parents say "You weren't hit half enough and that is the problem with you." To read a post advocating the same thing made me feel sick too. I despised my parents for the way they treated me and my siblings. I felt I was more of a grown up than they were, more intelligent and more in control of myself too - so I spent my childhood in terror and restrained fury until I very fearfully left home at 18. (Fearfully because I had been kept 'under house arrest' - only allowed out to go to school and back. We were all kept from solidifying friendships as we only saw friends at school. I did not have any confindence nor any surival skills, didn't know how to manage money, use a washing machine, cook etc.)

My parents hit their children to vent their own frustrations and anger. We were kept very much in line with verbal and psychological abuse as well as the threat of physical violence, so any 'misdemeanors' were relatively minor. In my household you could do the same thing every day of the week and get a different response - from laughter to a beating. Sometimes we got hit for no apparent reason. This has obviously left psychological scars - all 6 of us have reacted differently to it. Three of my siblings still get on quite well with my parents, two don't get on so well but still talk to them and I have cut contact with them. I think I left while things were bad so that has stayed with me - they all stayed at home (an unusually long time actually, esp given the circumstances) so as they got older the relationship with my parents has changed. I also think my parents may have been shocked at me leaving and telling people outside the family what my life had been like so this might have made them tone things down a bit.)

I realise my abusive family environment was a bit extreme but sadly it is not as rare as it should be. I think in the majority of cases children get hit because the parents lose control or don't know what else to do. It is the easy way out for the parents, not for the benefit of the child and even if some who were hit as children say it hasn't done them any harm I doubt if it has done them any good either. I'm sure they could have learnt the same lessons in a different way.

[puffin]

Reading your post made me sad Marrers. My mum was the same to me and its hard to undertstand why you would ever have children if you wanted to treat them so badly.
I still get upset when i hear people shouting "shut up or i will smack you" in the supermarkets, how awful to threaten your child like that. I would never say that to someone i loved so why is it ok to say it to the people you are suppose to love more than anything else.

[cobweb]

Yes, Marrers' post made me sad, too. I totally relate to the inconsistency thing - with my mum she'd be laughing one minute and screeching the next. In the end I just lost all respect for her, but she still manages to affect me even now. I wish I could cut her off but somehow I can't . I'm guessing that your siblings stayed at home because they had been conditioned to.

My mum still says things like "someone I know used to beat their son black and blue, and he grew up to be a Doctor!" - as though that should inspire me to do the same to my kids . I can only think that there are an awful lot of mentally unhinged parents lurking about pretending to be 'normal' .

[puffin]

My mum said on the phone to me about 4 months ago that she never hit me I think she is so crazy she has made her own past up. I rang my brother as i thought i was going mad but he soon make me feel better by confirming it all happened. I told my mum to leave me alone and i didnt want to hear from her again. Thankfully she has left me alone

[Marrers]

. . . she still manages to affect me even now. I wish I could cut her off but somehow I can't.

It took me a long time cobweb - I was 38 when I finally cut them off. It will soon be three years ago. But they still affect me - if they didn't I guess I'd be able to see them at least on some limited basis. I avoid all family events where they will be - for example I will not be attending my gran's 90th in July, so it's not really resolved or maturely sorted at all!

A bit off topic perhaps but here is what happened. I'd had a bad falling out with my mother in the December which led to me not going round again until February, but my last visit wasn't until the August.

In the big row something just changed for me - I found myself responding differently than I ever had before in a huge row. Normally I would try to explain or justify myself but this time I was coldly outraged and just said how dare you speak to me like that, you have no right and it's none of your business - I think it shifted the balance of things and my mother wrote me a letter of 'apology' (well, she said "you know what I'm like and I don't know why you got upset" which is closer than I thought she'd ever get to saying sorry!) I wrote back with a 'shit sandwich' (for those unfamiliar with the term it means sandwiching the negative main message / filling in some positive bread! - nice you wrote, you were out of order and have really upset me, hopefully we can move forward with a more respectful relationship). As I said I next went round in February having steeled myself for a big chat about what had happened but they acted as if nothing had happened and the moment was lost because I felt powerless to bring it up.

I didn't plan to cut them off though, I just stopped going because seeing them always made me feel bad, mentally and physically. On my last visit for my sister's 40th I was actually doubled over with agonising stomach pain at one point, like I'd been stabbed.
I felt like my body was telling me something and I decided I wasn't prepared to put myself through it again.

I imagined I would eventually go back and address things but I haven't felt able to despite being in therapy during that time and for almost 2 years after.

[cobweb]

Yes, I have had a similar thing Marrers, when my jaw locked mysteriously, the day before I was due to visit my parents. Literally, I could not open my mouth, it was clenched shut, and it hurt! . I went to the emergency doctor ( ) and he said it was a severe case of tension, I must have been grinding my teeth so hard for a few nights that I put my jaw out .

So, do your parents realise you have cut them off, and why?. Do they accept it?.

[RedWellies]

I don't blame those of you who have nothing to do with members of your family. I haven't spoken to my sister for a couple of years. She caused the problem but I'm not bothered as I can honestly say she can be the most unpleasant person I've ever known (with the possible exception of one of my neighbours!).

I've told my Mum to butt out of things sometimes and she has learnt to not push me too far. When she does...well, last time I lost the plot and she apologised.

[scarlett]

A belated big thank you to puffin for your earlier post

It's so sad that so many of us have problems with members of our family, I would be devastated if my daughter felt like that about me

I've only seen my mother a couple of times and only when absolutely necessary (at my grandad's and then my nan's funerals) in the last 14 years. My daughter has only ever met her once. She refuses to see that she ever did anything wrong though, as far as she's concerned she's a christian so that makes everthing she's ever done okay
The fact that I tried to kill myself a couple of times because I couldn't bear to live with what was happening to me when I was a teenager was apparently all my fault and my problem. Some people should not be allowed to have children.

[Pisces]

I'm about to make my big leap (8 days from now). My being an au pair in Switzerland for 1-2 years will help keep my dreams alive--to live in Europe/the UK and most importantly to leave the toxic environment I've lived in all my life. I will send my "parents" my letter of closure by post before I get on the aeroplane in New York so that I won't have to include a return address. My message includes, besides wishing them well in conclusion (despite how tactless, hurtful, and horrendous they are) that I will no longer have any contact with them and will block their e-mails/not read them.

When I was little they were verbally, emotionally, psychologically, and physically abusive, whereas now (in my adult years) they are verbally, emotionally, and psychologically abusive (mainly name calling, general degrading, emotional blackmail/guilt-tripping, patronisation, dishonesty, going through private things if I'm not careful to keep them hidden). When I was little, one of the instances was when I was being toilet trained, which was very difficult for me. I was threatened by my "dad" (while I was sitting on my toilet seat) that if I didn't make myself do my business, I would be spanked. I was scared and I tried but I didn't have to go and I told him that I wasn't able to. So, he told me to get over there for my spanking. I walked over, he put me face down and hit me repetitively on my bottom, pulled me back upward, and looked at me with an intimidating and leering smirk, which I haven't forgotten. I wanted to cry, but I (somehow) managed to hold them in because I registered in my head (since I was very young) that being emotional was considered unacceptable.

Anyhow, I am reading this wonderful book that when I finish I have a feeling I will be making huge recommendations and writing book reviews online about. It's called Toxic Parents (by Susan Forward--she's a psychotherapist). So far, I can't recommend it enough---it covers toxic parents of all types and uses examples and stories (for each type) with all of the various people the author has met with. The second half of the book, which I'm almost done focuses on healing from those things. She seems to do well with not generalising people and knowing that each person has their own individual situations and still enables that with her suggestions, etc. One of the things that made me wish she were here so that I could hug her is how she hugely stresses that forgiveness for the parents (abusers) not only is unnecessary, but can actually worsen things---she even gives examples of that. She points out how many people (including therapists/counsellors) mistake forgiveness as necessary for the healing process when in fact they're wrong. Susan Forward has a really good website that lists that book among her others, some of which (by description) sound like something that I should also read. Her website is www.susanforward.com

[Pisces]

Some people should not be allowed to have children.

I couldn't agree more!

[cobweb]

Oh, Pisces, well done to you and good luck!. I expect you'll be a lovely Au Pair .

[Pisces]

Thank you, cobweb. I really look forward to it. The family is very nice (the 2 little girls are so dear). Drastic moves can be necessary as well as for the better.

[Christina]

Congratulations Picses, now I know what you meant about your "host family" Im so glad you will finally get to live in a loving family setting.

[Pisces]

Thank you, Christina.

By the way, I owe you a PM (my apologies). I will be able to keep more on top of that after I make my move.

[Marrers]

So, do your parents realise you have cut them off, and why?. Do they accept it?.

They realise it but don't know why. I was doing my 'happy-happy mask' routine on my last visit so they had no idea anything was wrong. I wish I could provide an explanation so I could feel like I have a bit of closure but I can't put it into words. They made no effort to resolve things with me or even to find out what is wrong.

At my nephews baptism a year ago I arrived late, sat at the back and left early to avoid them. After this my mother wrote me a horrible note disowning me for my behaviour. I expect she feels a bit better to think she has the power back. Meanwhile it is all serving her very well - she is lamenting the situation to everyone in the family and getting the maximum drama and sympathy from being the 'wronged party'!

[fiamma]

Pisces I'm so happy that you've managed to make this move you've wanted for so long, good on you! I wish you all the best for your move and settling into your new job

[Pisces]

Thank you, fiamma. It is exactly a week from now!!!

[bryony]

l

[xrodolfox]

I tried to look through this thread, but it seemed to horribly sad... so since I'm <bumping> it back to life, I'll start with a response to the OP.

I never was spanked as a child. Neither was my brother (who was a crazy hothead!).

I think that hitting children is as dispicable as hitting a romantic partner or a dependent animal companion. It is worse than hitting a stranger or a friend.

I will never willing hit my children, even though I'm far from the world's best father and I certainly get angry at my kids, myself, and my wife. Just as I *never* would hit my wife, I won't hit my kids, even if that is more socially acceptable.

I'm very glad that my parents never hit me. At least they never inflicted that damage on me and my brother, and I think we are healthier, better "behaved", and better adjusted because of it. My parents aren't beyond reproach in their rearing, but they got that one right, and I'm glad that we're passing that on to the next generation.

[earthylovingirl]

i wasn't spanked, but i do feel there were times i deserved more disipline than i got.

[bugaboo]

I was spanked and berated as a child...I hated it as a kid, but now I'm grateful that my parents displayed such discipline. It's odd to say, but I wish more children were disciplined in this way because I have taken a great deal from my "discipline." I always say please and thank you, I always hold the door open for strangers, I always treat people the way I want to be treated. I think that all of this respect for others stems from my getting a metal spoon across the ass. I truly feel that if I didn't receive this discipline I would be a nasty, inconsiderate average American.

I think too many people worry about the consequences of "beatings" but when the abuse is teamed with parental love it becomes a learning experience. I'm sure it's hard to merge these two factors but it worked for me. I'm glad my parents spanked me. If they hadn't I don't know what kind of person I would be today.

[xrodolfox]

I find it interesting that people think that people think that hitting children has positive side effects because they turned out OK, when the research shows that that's a coincidence, rather than caused by the hitting.

I know plenty of people, myself included, that were NEVER hit as children, that grew up in structured households WITHOUT manipulative consequences or "dicipline", who open doors for others, say, "Thank You", and most importantly, are critical thinkers who are compassionate and empathetic.

I really don't think that my goal is to have children that cow-tow to adults, or children that always "obey", but rather children that respect others, are empathetic, and are ethical, even when I'm not around. Research and common sense shows us that hitting children teaches them to learn how to avoid getting hit, instead of avoiding the original behavior. Thus, a kid who is hit will continue the "bad" bahavior, but just in more clever, insiduous manners. They'll still hit their sibling, but lie about it, or hide it instead.

What's also interesting, is that people think that to NOT hit means to be permissive, or absent, which is also incorrect.

Regardless, there is no direct correlation between hitting children and good behavior in the long term, and it's rather incorrect to think that the two are more than coincidentally connected. Afterall, most people who've managed to become dangerous to society have been children in extremely "strict" households, or in households where the parent was absent.

I'm quite sure that if parents didn't beat their kids, or beat you, you'd have turned out even happier. Getting hit by the people you love, and learning that hitting somehow equals love is quite messed up.