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Thread: Hello! Ex-vegan trying again...

  1. #1
    Karma
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    Default Hello! Ex-vegan trying again...

    Hi everyone. This is not my first post on this forum but it is my first post for a while. I was vegan for two years but then gradually reverted to my old ways. Now I'm trying again but I still have a few questions/issues that are unresolved so I'm hoping to find a few answers on here as well as a bit of support.

    I've started a blog as well to try and gain a bit of clarity and also hopefully have fun along the way, so I've put the address for that in my signature (I hope it shows up)... any comments gratefully received!

    I'll probably mostly be hanging out around the Going Vegan and Parenting sections after this.

    Thanks,
    Karma.

  2. #2

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    Default Re: Hello! Ex-vegan trying again...

    Hi Karma
    Good luck with the transition into Veganism!

  3. #3

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    Default Re: Hello! Ex-vegan trying again...

    Hi karma,

    Good luck from my side as well!

    Unfortunately the address of your blog does not show up, so please post a simple link to your blog.
    What happened the last time you tried? What made you go back to " your old ways" ?

    Let us know so we could maybe give you tips how to avoid that this time...

    Best regards,
    Andy

  4. #4
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hello! Ex-vegan trying again...

    Hi,
    non-vegans don't have access to the signature feature, and one reason for this is that they sometimes have been using signatures to promote links to sites which promote use of animal products. I did have a look at Karma's blog, where she 'confesses' that she's not a vegan or vegetarian, says that she intend to keep feeding her kids with eggs/dairy etc until they are old enough to make their own decision, and while this section welcomes people who have decided to stop using animal products, the purpose of a section where non-vegans can post is to help them go vegan.

    Be prepared for a long-ish reply, and some general tips (not particularly meant for Karma)...

    There are a few different categories of non-vegans who want to post in this section. Some want to change the definition of vegan (we had one last week who said he wanted "to be a vegan who ate eggs"). Some seem to, between the lines, confess (often with lots of details about non-vegan stuff they consume) that they aren't vegans and somehow ask that we respect them for that or accept it. While 'respect' is a word I highly respect, a vegan supporting use of animal products would be rather oxymoronic... My feeling is that these people sometimes don't want help to go vegan, but want someone to say that it's OK that they don't do that. IMO the use of animal products is based in lack of respect for animals, which - when dealing with people who keep doing that - raises questions like "Shall we respect lack of respect?" or "Shall we tolerate intolerance?". It's easy to understand why people use animal products, or even hooked on them, but habits which harm other living beings still aren't will always be bad habits.

    Of course nothing good comes out of a judgmental attitude towards non-vegans, it's a waste of energy anyway. And I've been a non-vegan myself, and even switched back and forth a few times before I finally found out that it's going to be permanent - so I know how it feels not not "be able" to do what you really want to do. The process of wanting to make a switch and not doing it is an interesting process, and I think the important part of it all is to figure out why some people think they aren't capable of going vegan. I've been thinking that people who come here to get acceptance for their use of animals products may actually keep using them only to get acceptance from people who aren't vegans.

    Tip #1: let go if the interest in others accepting you.


    I think one main reason is that they actually aren't vegans in the first place, or really want to make a change.
    Tip # 2: begin with trying to figure out how you ended up with habits you find it hard to let go of.

    A second reason (for cravings etc) could be lack of knowledge about nutrition: they start to crave food eg. high in protein or B12 because they haven't 'reprogrammed' their bodies to understand that one easily can get enough protein without using animal products. Or they assume that they'll get enough B12 if they only eat a lot of mushrooms or don't wash their plants, and crave something with B12 in because their B12 levels actually are decreasing.

    Tip # 3: make sure you get enough of the nutrients vegans need to pay attention to - they are in some cases different than the nutrients non-vegans need to pay attention to. Take supplements if you aren't sure you get what you need, and let go, if needed, of the illusion that we'll always get 'natural' amounts by eating whatever we feel like (or 'varied food') in a 'non-natural' world.

    One interesting combination is people who talk about their dairy product addiction (cheese in particular), and at the same time tell us that they want to give their own kids eggs, milk and cheese until they can make their own decisions. That's IMHO a rather strange decision to make for someone who knows that eg. cheese can be quite addictive: they aren't only giving their kids food they disagree in, but they also give them a a habit. It's also a very original solution... I doubt that most meat eaters would give their ids a vegan diet until they are old enough to make their own decisions.
    If one admits that one, by giving them animal products, actually is making a decision on behalf of the kids in the first place, why not make a decision that one personally agrees with? ;-)


    Such a decision may be of course hard to make if only is a 'vegan wannabe', or don't know how to deal with cravings. It goes without saying that it will be hard to raise a kid on a vegan diet if you find it hard to live on a vegan diet yourself.
    Tip # 4: Do whatever it takes to end up with the revelation that it's just as easy to be a vegan as it was to be a non-vegan. Make sure that you eat food you really like. Veganism = *not* asceticism!

    Tip#5: remember that vegans (at least those in a community which basically are for vegans only) generally aren't interested in details about which animal products you keep eating, how often you slip of how you like your beef.

    Tip # 7: Don't try to convince us that it's OK to eat animal products. You won't succeed.

    Tip # 8 (the most important one): Change your focus! Instead of asking for accept, discussing your slips, or wanting us to read your own or others' writings about why/when you think using animal products is OK; rather spend the energy on what it is that you need to do become a vegan. It's in important change, and you need to actively support it. I'm 100% sure that you by now know what it takes to change your habits. I've seen some cases where people ask for advice from others in the process of going vegan, and get all the advice they need, but still keep using animal products. They may feel that in order to initiate a change, a 'firm' decision is needed, but forget that not changing anything also is an important decision.

    Tip # 9: If you find that you aren't really interested in letting go og animal products, ask yourself why you think it's a good idea to use cheese, seafood or whatever it is that you are hooked on.
    If you can't find any reasons other than "I like seafood" (of course you do!) , or "habit" (of course you have old habits that need to be deactivated!), you of course have a conflict (with yourself). There's only one solution to that conflict.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  5. #5
    Karma
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    Default Re: Hello! Ex-vegan trying again...

    Thanks Firestorm/Andy_T for your words of encouragement and welcome. Andy_T, my blog is here:

    [Link removed, see post # 8]

    Korn - a lengthy reply! I am sorry you felt the need to move my brief hello from the main forum. I did state in it that any further posts would be in the Going Vegan and Parenting sections. I am sorry that I am not allowed to say hello to the general forum members. I do understand that the forum is for committed vegans, but I wonder if you could let me know when I will be allowed to join (and have a signature)? When I have abstained from animal products for a day, a month or a year? I must say that I feel quite upset by this response, not least because I feel a number of your points do not apply to me and you have used my post to state your agenda without really understanding what I am saying. Perhaps you just cut and pasted your standard response?

    I don't want to change the definition of being vegan. I don't want to be respected for not being a vegan. I don't particularly respect myself for not being vegan, because I want to be vegan and believe it is the right thing for me to do, but I am finding it difficult. On my blog (not on this forum!) I have started to share some of my process. My blog is not specifically for vegans - in fact it is more specifically for my non-vegan friends, most of whom have never even contemplated vegetarianism let alone veganism. I hope by sharing my process there it might start other people to ask questions and maybe start on the same road. But maybe not - the most important thing for me right now is to be honest about where I am, so I can move forward.

    With regard to my children, I did not state that "I intend" to keep feeding them eggs/dairy. I said that "we have agreed" (me and my partner) which is totally different. I am only 50% of their parentage and I only have 50% of a say in what they eat. I am not in a position to unilaterally make that decision, so lacto-ovo-vegetarian is our best consensus at present. Otherwise they would just end up getting fed stuff in secret and I don't want deception - only honest conversation. We never had that in our house when I was growing up and consequently both my siblings now eat meat. I think the best thing I can do is learn about veganism and the arguments and facts and also learn to cook good vegan food so they grow up with that and associate that with mother-love. My mum fed me lots of prawns and cheese and those are the things I struggle with most. Never when I am in a good place but always when I am struggling with life and feeling low. It's an emotional thing - not rational - not about knowledge or belief or physical awareness or cravings but more about very early programming around nurture. And I don't think I'm alone in this from conversations I've had with other people. It's important to recognise it because I think it's fundamentally what stops a lot of people from making changes to their diet.

    Lastly I think you may have missed the main point of the blog, which is a vegan cookery project! I am hoping it will be fun and we will eat lots of yummy food (see Tip 4) and learn new techniques and about new foodstuffs which will make being vegan a pleasure

    Karma xx

  6. #6

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    Default Re: Hello! Ex-vegan trying again...

    Why not go on one of Dr. Barnard's 21 day vegan program challenges. His thesis is that after 21 days it is much easier to continue with a vegan diet. If you have health issues such as diabetes, you will be very pleased to read his studies in the literature.

  7. #7

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    Default Re: Hello! Ex-vegan trying again...

    If you feed kids eggs/milk you are forcing your choice on them. Being vegan is a subset of being ovo-lacto-vegetarian if you made a venn diagram. The logical option would be to raise your kids vegan and let them develop their own ethics as they grow up. Now you are forcing them to take part in something they might resent later. I know I rather would have had vegan parents. It just doesn't make sense what you're doing to them.

  8. #8
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hello! Ex-vegan trying again...

    Hi Karma!

    If you want to go vegan, just ask for help with the unresolved issues you have. If you disagree in being vegan, you may discuss in the Vegan/Non-Vegan Discussions section.

    Quote Karma View Post
    I am sorry you felt the need to move my brief hello from the main forum.
    That's just a standard routine. Only vegans can post in most areas here, so when someone posts a link to a blog where she says that she's not a vegan or vegetarian, that message belongs somewhere else... But there are many vegan members active in this sections as well.


    I am sorry that I am not allowed to say hello to the general forum members. I do understand that the forum is for committed vegans...
    With more than 2000 registered non-vegan members, our forum wouldn't have been a forum for vegans anymore if these could post in all areas.


    I must say that I feel quite upset by this response, not least because I feel a number of your points do not apply to me
    Did you see the part which said "Be prepared for a long-ish reply, and some general tips (not particularly meant for Karma)..."?


    When non-vegans post links to their own sites/blog here, they often contain attacks on veganism/non-vegan recipes/articles which promote use of animal products etc. Imagine that you actually were a vegan, logged into a forum which claimed that it is a 'sanctuary' for vegans, and found lots of people who in one way or another shared that they used animal products, or - like you - claimed that they weren't vegans or even vegetarians etc.: What would happen if we let these people participate in all areas? The actual vegans would find another forum, and I would be left with the prawn/honey/fish/cheese etc. eaters. Not interested! These 2000 non-vegan members would also complain about our policy - just like you do. Because they don't see things from a vegan perspective, so they don't get the point with having a vegan perspective on our forum policy either.

    Then there are those who plan - yes, plan - a conflict. They may have a blog (it's important to post it before anything else).., and when they register here, and clearly break some rules/use the main areas to write about how they love this or that animal products etc, they are moderated - and immediately start to complain, on their own blog, about veganforum moderating being unreasonable. Some of these people have registered with double accounts/dummy email addresses etc.

    I wonder why they do it. I know that some people have registered several times (and even admitted that they have done that, after a while), I also know that - believe it or not - mods on other forums have registered here only to start conflicts, and there are cases where banned members want 'revenge' - and make up silly stories about why they were banned, or log in as someone else and support... themselves. We all need to 'get a life' at times....

    Some register and say that they need help with some vegan related topics, but actually never ask any questions. Instead, they make a lot of fuss eg. about not being able to write about the animal products they use, or that we are undemocratic (yawn) because we 'censor' away their posts about eating animal products.

    My mum fed me lots of prawns and cheese and those are the things I struggle with most.
    Interesting observation... I saw the same thing the first period I skipped meat etc; there was an emotional bond to the kind of food we ate at home when I felt a need for comfort.

    Lastly I think you may have missed the main point of the blog
    To be honest, I haven't paid attention to it. But I checked it again today, and while you have a picture of some muffins in your last article, almost everything you write about is complaining about this forum (" I am surprised that people friendly to their cause who are saying I would like to be vegan but I’m finding it difficult and need some support are not welcomed.") etc.
    Please don't miss the fact that we have had loads of non-vegan members who have all their questions answered here.

    • September 1: You write that your a not a vegan or vegetarian on your blog (eat prawn etc)
    • Sept 3: you want to post a link to your blog on a forum for vegans only, in the area for vegans only, and say that you have questions/issues that are unresolved.
    • Then you become sorry - even if you are not a vegan - that you can't post in that. No unresolved issues with going vegan are being discussed.
    • You are also upset by my response, and even if I write that some of the general tips some general tips weren't a response to you, you have a problem with the fact that "a number of your points do not apply to me".
    • September 4th: You question whether you really want to become “a vegan” on your blog.


    Why don't we all just make life as easy as possible for ourselves? If you have questions you need help with - just ask them! I don't think any of us will benefit much from discussing if it's relevant or not to be upset or sorry over signature issues (see the FAQ, #9), or about having your thread moved to a section for non-vegans etc.

    Let me humbly suggest that you let go of the idea of going vegan, or "vegan", as you call it. I have approved accounts from thousands of members, and seen many members go vegan since VF was started in 2003. I have observed a pattern amongst people who want to become vegans and actually go vegan: it's all about focus. I also kept eating cheese etc. long after I had decided that I was a vegan, due to lack of focus.

    Some people want some chit-chat about why we are vegans, a (very) few non-vegans make fuzz about not being able to post in the sections for vegans, some just want to kill some time - but those who actually go vegan are focused on making progress. On change. If they have questions, they just ask them. ;-) Trust me - we have loads of helpful people onboard ready to answer questions!

    The best way to *not* go vegan, is to be problem-oriented. Here's an example from your blog about what I mean by problem-oriented: "I wonder how long I would have to abstain from any animal products before I would be allowed a signature? One day? One week? One year? The answer of course is when I choose to define myself as vegan, but if I accidentally or deliberately ate some cheese (once, or a few times?) would I be disqualified?"

    You know what? Nobody here is checking if you ate cheese. Nobody will ask you, or suggest that you share it of you did. Veganism isn't written with a capital V; it's not a religion. If you keep eating prawns, that's most of all a problems for the prawns. We don't ned to hear about it. If you feel guilty about it, you need to figure out how not to get into such guilt situations again (hint: simply don't eat prawns ) .

    And for the records - if I would deliberately eat chocolate with milk in it, I'd make sure I enjoyed it. Otherwise - what would the point be in eating it?

    If we spend too much time staring at obstacles on our way, we may simply never reach our goal - or it may take way too long time. But issues with signatures, moving threads etc aren't 'obstacles'... right? It's too bad, really, that you don't feel welcomed here. I posted some general tips for people who find it hard to go vegan (you registered here 6 years ago), but have described them (on your blog) as the mod is "taking the opportunity to push his or her own agenda". Ohwellissimo.

    So good luck with everything - I'll remove the link to your blog now, because it's not mainly a food blog/you're not a vegan/you also question if you want to become one.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  9. #9
    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hello! Ex-vegan trying again...

    Hi Karma! Just wanted to say don't worry about your post having been moved - it's still visible to other members.

    Good luck with your endeavours and please do ask if you have any questions about veganism.

  10. #10
    Karma
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    Default Re: Hello! Ex-vegan trying again...

    Okay I'm sorry this is starting to feel a bit tortuous and I never meant to start an argument. I only started the blog last week and it was intended to chart my journey back to veganism and thoughts about the process along the way. I hoped it would help me make the transition which I have been trying to do (but have not completely managed) for some time now. All the food on it is vegan, so I'm not sure how you can view it as an attack on veganism! I did question myself whether the "confession" post was a good idea, but in the end I decided that to go on a journey you have to start in one place and end up somewhere different, so I have to be honest about where I am now and then move forwards, and maybe then a few others might also come along for the ride. The comment about questioning whether I want to go "vegan", in response to my post not appearing on this website for over 24 hours, was a question about labels, not about the value of a plant-based diet per se. So I am sorry, I did feel upset and a bit misunderstood but you have also made some good and valid points which I will certainly take on board.

    Karma xx

  11. #11
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: Hello! Ex-vegan trying again...

    Hi Karma

    What are the questions and concerns mentioned in your opening post?

    Good luck with your efforts to go vegan.


    Leedsveg
    Last edited by leedsveg; Sep 6th, 2011 at 11:22 AM. Reason: mature reflection

  12. #12
    CATWOMAN sandra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hello! Ex-vegan trying again...

    Hello Karma, I hope that you will return to being vegan. Try to find whatever it was that kept you vegan for two years, and return to that place. If you are vegan for all the right reasons then going back to being non vegan is just not an issue. If you need/want any advice I'm sure all of us here will be happy to help you.

    I agree totally with Korn. We want this forum to be a place where vegans can visit and feel happy to be amongst other vegan people so we have to be very careful with new non-vegan visitors. I'm sure you can appreciate this.
    I like Sandra, she keeps making me giggle. Daft little lady - Frosty

  13. #13
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: Hello! Ex-vegan trying again...

    Quote Korn View Post
    I posted some general tips for people who find it hard to go vegan (you registered here 6 years ago), but have described them (on your blog) as the mod is "taking the opportunity to push his or her own agenda".
    Korn

    If we (and that includes you) didn't have basic forum rules for prospective, new and existing members, I'm sure that anyone deciding to revisit Vegan Forum after a break of a few years would be disappointed. The forum just wouldn't exist.

    Your "agenda" of promoting veganism, and encouraging courteous, informative dialogue between posters seems ok to me.

    Many thanks again for all that you put into this forum.


    Leedsveg

  14. #14
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hello! Ex-vegan trying again...

    Latest update from the thread starter, posted in her blog 3 days ago:

    That’s not to say eating an animal-free diet isn’t a good thing to do – one can live with a clear concience and reap the health benefits too – but unless other people are inspired to do the same (more or less) it isn’t going to have much of an impact in real terms.
    Millions of animals are *not* killed/*not* suffering - every year - because of vegans (and others) who have stopped using animals products. If only one person would have been vegan, hundreds of animals will be saved - and there are already millions of people not consuming animal products out there.

    I'm closing this thread now.

    These numbers are for US only, in millions (and probably higher now, since the numbers are from 2000).

    Animals Slaughter Other* % Total ‘00 Est ‘01 % Increase
    ‘Broilers’ 8,259.2 532.8 (6%) 8,792 8,967 (2%)
    ‘Layers’ 165 264.7 (61.6%) 429.7 446 (3.6%)
    Turkeys 268 36 (11.8%) 304 308 (2.3%)
    Ducks 24.5 1.6 (4.1%) 26.1 28.2 (7.4%)
    Birds 8,716.7 835.1 (9.6%) 9551.8 9,749.2 (2.1%)
    Cattle/Calves 37.6 4.1 (10.9%) 41.7 40 (-4.3%)
    Pigs 98.1 17.1 (17.4%) 115.2 113 (-2.1%)
    Sheep 3.5 .8 (22%) 4.3 4 (-7%)
    Mammals 139.2 22 (15.8%) 161.2 158.4 (-1.7%)
    Animals 8,855.9 857.1 (9.7%) 9,713 9,906 (1.9%)


    See also: http://www.veganforum.com/forums/sho...e-in-USA-alone
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

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