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Thread: Animals and Capitalism

  1. #1
    the_red_star's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Animals and Capitalism

    Every year millions of animals are tortured and killed every year at the hands of the profiteering capitalists. The multinational corporations worship at their alter which is the market and scarifice not only the lives of humans but of animals also. Banks invest in companies that test on animals, large corporations e.g. P & G, undoubtedly in most peoples opinion, mistreat animals to a disgusting, unbearable extent, fast food industries thrive on the mass production of meat and factory farming is a major influence in sustaining the increasing profit margins of the fat cats.

    I would just like to hear everybodies opinions on the links between capitalism and animals (whether it be animal rights, cruelty or just in general terms). Are there any links? If so, how do we combate this in both the long and short term? If we didn't live in a capitalist driven society would animal mistreatment or misuse be such a big problem as it is in the above examples? you get the idea...

    All opinions welcome (although maybe not accepted.. ) Happy posting!!


  2. #2
    Russ
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    Default Re: Animals and Capitalism

    Yes there are links. The sole purpose of the capitalist is to make profit. All else is expendable unless regulated by law. The capitalists of course, become too powerful and control the law, hence neo-liberal, global deregulation leading to intense suffering of millions of humans and billions of animals every year, destruction of the environment, and a small minority are able to live in luxury off the backs of the labour of those they exploit.

    Specifically, meat, dairy, animal testing, fur, leather, are for-profit industries. As long as there's a profit to be made, the capitalists will keep producing animals flesh as commodities, not only that but trying to extract as much value from as little input as possible - hence battery farms; a more efficient method of storing living creatures until its time for slaughter. It would cost more to store them in reasonable sized cages (I am not of course saying any animal should ever be kept in a cage) or to let them roam (relatively) free. It's simply that callous. As for free range eggs, etc. - they exist because there is a market there for them, because the average consumer is uninformed rather than callous themselves, and I believe most people do not want to inflict pain onto other beings unless absolutely necessary - and they are kept uninformed because if people get informed about the conditions on battery farms, well, they have a tendency to become vegan.

    Back to my point - does anyone need commodities that used to be part of an animal? No, of course not, it's a totally ridiculous and pathetic thing to think. But we are told we need these things or we will get ill, we're told the animals aren't really hurt that bad, and all this is BECAUSE of the capitalist ethic, that is to make as much profit as possible at the expense of anything and everything.

    I also think the ideology forced upon us from a young age (at least in Western cultures) is very much centred around the self. Kids are instructed that they are confirmed narcissists and grow up considering themselves exempt from the responsibility of the suffering they contribute to. This forced ideology is intrinsic to the capitalist system because it keeps us buying useless crap that we absolutely do not need and even does us harm (i.e. meat and dairy).

  3. #3
    Free & Wild Tray's Avatar
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    Default Re: Animals and Capitalism

    For me this isn't only a thing about animals and capitalism but about animals and society, or animal and anthropocentrical vision.
    Capitalism only emphasizes the problem of animal exploitation

  4. #4
    Kevster
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    Quote Russ
    I also think the ideology forced upon us from a young age.
    This is a massive issue, alternative ways of living are not taught in most schools.
    Thus people are indoctrinated as slaves to the capitalist system. Of course we could educate ourselves, but what's that? The next episode of Coronation Street? I'll just watch that first.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Animals and Capitalism

    I also agree with what you say about ideology and i agree with you Kevster that people cannot always, or want too for that matter, educate themselves.

    So, what is the way forward with this?

    Obviously the younger the age children are educated from the better, but we can't go lobbying the schools or education minister for this sort of education, for as you mentioned we live in a capitalist society and counter-acting this would do the government no favours (in their view) despite the favours it would do to society!! After all, schools are now the new advertising space of the multinationals with posters advertising mobile phone companies, coca cola vending machines around every corner and even advertising within school books!

    Do we have to rely on campaigns like animal aids 'school speaker's' idea, where people can go into schools (if permitted by the school) and speak to the pupils about the foul use of animals?

    Also, if we lived in a socialist society, what would be the pro's and con's of the treatment of animals then? Obviously the capitalist drive would be gone, or atleast dormant, thus the need for intense factory farming would or should cease to exist and similiar factors would follow suit. But what other problems would there be for animals, or what problems would still exist?
    "Human Freedom, Animal Rights, One Struggle, One Fight!!"

  6. #6
    veggiesosage
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    I'm not convinced that in a socialist society there would be any less demand for animal cruelty. While I would say I'm largely a socialist myself, I've never really seen any more sympathy for animal rights among socialists.

    Socialist ideals tend to include making things cheap and available to all. An admirable sentiment but is there any reason why that wouldn't include meat? So presuming that people would in the main still want meat to eat the socialist government would then have to find a way to produce large amounts of meat cheaply, which would inevitable involve cruelty, just as it does now.

    The only other possibility is to transform society into a socialist vegan system but, while there are vegans, and there are socialists, there appears to be very few advocating a combination of the two.

  7. #7
    Free & Wild Tray's Avatar
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    Default Re: Animals and Capitalism

    For me the solution to the problem is not capitalism neither socialism..
    It'll be a system based on the deep ecology but it's utopistic because the most of the humankind'll never accept a biocentristic theory and also because we're too many.

  8. #8
    I eve's Avatar
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    Default Re: Animals and Capitalism

    I agree with veggiesosage; there have been, and are, socialist countries but non-humans are treated no better there than elsewhere. A system where non-humans are treated compassionately is utterly utopian at present, and it is unrealistic to think otherwise.
    Eve

  9. #9
    Russ
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    I am socialist too but hold no illusions that animals would become liberated after a socialist revolution. However, as I mentioned elsewhere, to me it seems that veganism is the logical extension of socialism (or is it the other way around?) Then again, ask nine out of ten socialists and they'll probably call you crazy.
    Put it this way: Marx (yeah ..) said that all history hitherto blah blah blah was one of class struggle. And it's true, no matter what you think of the guy. There has always been a dominant class to exploit and get rich off the others. Right now it's the bourgeois capitalist class. Before it was the feudal lord and the aristocracy. Now, "class" can also mean the oppression of women by men, of blacks by whites, of homosexuals by sexually repressed / mob mentality homophobes. Why not the oppression of animals by people? Seems like a justified argument to me. In all previously existing societies, animals have certainly been an oppressed class.

    "For me this isn't only a thing about animals and capitalism but about animals and society, or animal and anthropocentrical vision."

    This makes the most sense. In pre-capitalist societies, animals were hugely oppressed. Capitalism isn't to blame for speciesism. It is to blame for the exacerbation of animal cruelty to extreme levels due to the drive for profit (see my first post on this thread).
    Certainly, our view of animals, and this is referring to the whole of humanity, has to radically change in order to end animal exploitation. And that's certainly a hard thing to achieve. I agree that under socialism, the drive to get food for everyone - while not a bad idea in itself by any means - could well mean intensive farming methods - which is of course a terrible and repulsive idea.

  10. #10
    the_red_star's Avatar
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    Default Re: Animals and Capitalism

    Quote veggiesosage
    I'm not convinced that in a socialist society there would be any less demand for animal cruelty. While I would say I'm largely a socialist myself, I've never really seen any more sympathy for animal rights among socialists.

    Socialist ideals tend to include making things cheap and available to all. An admirable sentiment but is there any reason why that wouldn't include meat? So presuming that people would in the main still want meat to eat the socialist government would then have to find a way to produce large amounts of meat cheaply, which would inevitable involve cruelty, just as it does now.

    The only other possibility is to transform society into a socialist vegan system but, while there are vegans, and there are socialists, there appears to be very few advocating a combination of the two.
    I was not by any means suggesting that in a socialist society people would not eat meat. Without getting too technical i was addressing such factors as;

    The drive for profit would be less and there would be far more independent local farmers in business selling their produce and living off what they earn. This would, should, with the right legislation in place, mean that we do not have the massive amount of multinational factory farming and in effect saving millions of animals from such horrible conditions, and a lesser amount of stress and inhumane treatment.

    I am not suggesting that there would be no animal cruelty etc but simply asking do people think there would be less. A capitalist society relies on animal abuse. How do people think this would differ under a socialist society.

    It might be important for me to add that i do not have the answers, nor do i pretend to, i'm trying to initiate some sort of disscussion in order to see what people think and how people would like to see such changes implemented. Everybodies opinions are valued!!!

    On the topic about animal cruelty, my mum has just brought in a duck leg for my sisters dinner .... i don't think anyone listens to me in my family! I'll keep fighting the vegan cause people!!! ha ha
    "Human Freedom, Animal Rights, One Struggle, One Fight!!"

  11. #11
    Hippy Scum Plunder Bunnie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Animals and Capitalism

    Quote Kevster
    This is a massive issue, alternative ways of living are not taught in most schools.
    Thus people are indoctrinated as slaves to the capitalist system. Of course we could educate ourselves, but what's that? The next episode of Coronation Street? I'll just watch that first.
    Right on. Our perspectives are so easily shaped, and done at a yougn age, where we dont have any say, and I guess you have to have a perspective in the first place to descide what you want. Regardless, you are taught that the system you are in is good, others are wrong, much like stritch religious families teaching their children their religion is right. If your religion or economic system is right, then the other must be flawed. It makes it hard to understand and accept something that is so different.
    "You'd better take care of me lord, otherwise you're gonna have me on your hands" - Hunter S. Thompson

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Animals and Capitalism

    I think capitalism has made the plight of animals worse by its efficiency. By this I mean increases in scale of production, speed of production and transport capabilities have exposed 'factory' animals to a misery without precedent. As Russ points out there's an inverse relationship between profit and animal welfare. Animals have become just another commodity to be bought and sold.

    It might change many things but I don't believe a change in the ownership of the means of production will effect a change in human conciousness, however. IMO socialism won't change the commodification of animals. Indeed it may exacerbate it in a (misguided) attempt to improve the standard of living of a greater number of people - without a change of conciousness this will probably mean more meat rather than less animal suffering...

    But I think conciousness may change by necessity. Because nature rejects commodification just as surely as she rejects overheating of the atmosphere. Take bird flu, for example: the 'Spanish flu' of 1918 was probably born in troop transit camps. The conditions in modern day pig factory farm are a similarly ideal crucible for creating a mutation of the bird flu virus to which humans will be susceptible, not least because a pig's physiology is so similar to our own. It's probably just a matter of time until something even more horrible for humans than BSE comes crawling out of the obscene conditions of factory farms...

    Marx found his dialectic in the class struggle. I reckon a true dialectic may emerge from capitalism's ultimate conceit - that human beings can drastically exploit nature without drastically undermining themselves.
    We are saved in the end by the things that ignore us. Andrew Harvey

  13. #13

    Default Re: Animals and Capitalism

    Socialism/humanism offers no real provisions for any animal other than the human. The rapid rate of industrialisation in past socialist nations suggests it could even be worse, considering there'd be no marketplace to hold to account ethically.

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