Veganism vs. Strict Vegetarianism

[Wishin986]

I was wondering where people draw the line when it comes to Veganism vs. Strict Vegetarianism.

I personally think one can say they are vegan if since they decided to go vegan they have abstained as much as possible from buying any products, be it food or other material goods, that contain animal products for themselves. I say buy because I do not include old items that someone wants to get the most use out of them that they can as to not waste them.

I would call people who only follow a "vegan diet" and do not think twice about buying leather or occasionally "cheating" on said diet a vegan but I would call that person a strict vegetarian. I would call them a strict vegetarian because the only are concerned w. dietary factors and animal treatment doesn't necessarily interest them. An example I have is that there is someone who claims to be vegan who doesn't think twice about buying leather goods and just the other weekend was seen in a local restaurant splitting a brownie and ice cream dessert and also using cream in coffee. I would say that is almost a strict vegetarian - assuming that they actually do follow a mostly "vegan diet" other than restaurant incidents.

I thought I would spark up this debate because I stated something on the levels of veganism thread and I don't think I accurately articulated what I meant so I figured I would start this thread so people can say where they personally draw the line.

[Cherry]

I'd call a strict vegetarian somebody who never ate meat, gelatine, cochineal etc... I think it would be an insult to someone who was mostly vegan to be called a strict vegetarian - I'd probably say they were 'almost vegan'. Good for them though, better to be almost vegan or a dietary vegan than not at all

[Cumin]

Wishin,
I'm not sure that the dietary Vs purchase distinction is the deciding point. Having been a strict vegetarian for several years, I think the distiction is merely about which products are intentionally excluded.
I'll try to clarify this:
A strict vegan would obviously try to exclude meat, silk, honey and gelatine, leather etc.
A strict veggy would try to exclude meat, leather and gelatine, but not honey or dairy.

I agree with Cherry. What you describe (lapsing, cheating and buying leather) would be neither veggy or vegan but 'nearly' one or the other. I think the label (veggy or vegan) comes from what they are trying to achieve, not from how successful they are. If a person lapses into omni world, I don't think they drop a rung down the ladder (as it were) to strict veggy. They just lapse (or cheat).

phew!

[moonshadow]

i would say someone who buys leather goods but is otherwise vegan or vegetarian is a dietary vegan or dietary vegetarian.

i'd say a strict vegetarian may eat honey or dairy/eggs in foods but wouldn't eat them on their own (omlette, ice cream, cheese)

bryce is ovolacto, and won't wear leather. he'd agree that someone who wears leather should be a dietary vegetarian. he would say that person shouldn't be considered a strict vegetarian.

[twinkle]

Living in Leicester, where there are a lot of "strict vegetarian" restaurants, I've come to associate it with a lacto-vegetarian diet, no eggs.

[Wishin986]

I realize that society has changed the meaning of the word vegetarian in the vernacular to mean someone who does not eat flesh from meat or gelatin etc. However, definitively there is a distinct difference between vegetarianism and veganism and thats the lifestyle.

Vegan:
Pronunciation: 'vE-g&n also 'vA- also 've-j&n or -"jan
Function: noun
Etymology: by contraction from vegetarian
: a strict vegetarian who consumes no animal food or dairy products; also : one who abstains from using animal products (as leather)
- veg·an·ism /'vE-g&-"ni-z&m, 'vA-g&-, 've-j&-/ noun

it says ALSO abstains from using animal products (as leather)

Vegetarianism:
Pronunciation: -E-&-"ni-z&m
Function: noun
: the theory or practice of living on a diet made up of vegetables , fruits, grains, nuts, and sometimes eggs or dairy products

SOMETIMES eggs or dairy products - there are also entries on Merriam Webster Dictionary Online for lacto-vegetarian and lacto-ovo vegetarian making a clear distinction.

according to Britannica online vegetarianism:

Theory or practice of eating only plants.

The vegetarian diet includes grains, vegetables, fruits, and nuts; it excludes meat, poultry, and fish, but some vegetarians eat dairy products (lactovegetarians), egg products (ovovegetarians), or both (ovolactovegetarians).

I read an interview w. Donald Watson a bit ago and he talked about how he wanted to create the word Vegan to incorporate the lifestyle factor because the word vegetarian wasn't enough since it only dealt w. dietary issues not product issues.

I feel in some ways the danger of calling people who look at veganism as solely a diet and something to "cheat on" is that it is now engrained in society. Most people I know when I explain I'm a vegan and that I don't eat or buy animal products including leather, silk, wool most say that they always just thought it was a food issue bc they know people who are vegans but dont know anything about or dont do anything about the lifestyle part of veganism besides the dietary factor. I personally would cease to label myself a vegan if I went out and ordered something that was most definately without a doubt not vegan until I decided to adhere to those values again. A lot of people always tell me well just try this (eventhough its usually a baked good w. some form of dairy or egg product involved) I won't tell anyone - to which I respond I do this for myself and its part of my moral values you not telling anyone doesn't mean that Im not going to know and thats whats important.

I do think that almost vegan and almost vegetarian can be good terms to use at times. I do realize that society has somewhat distorted the original meaning of vegetarian so that veganism has come to mean the elimination of dairy and egg products from what most people think is a vegetarian diet. Maybe I'm just a stickler for definitions - I was always that girl running to look thing up in the dictionary when we would get into debates over ethics - so maybe I'm interpreting too strictly but thats my personal interpretation of these terms.

[madpogue]

I'd call a strict vegetarian somebody who never ate meat, gelatine, cochineal etc...

So "strict vegetarianism" is like virginity? Once you've eaten something non-veg, it's "all over"? I know this is changing as time marches, but esp. among my age peers (and being a global westerner), just about every vegan I've met was raised omni. Not that it really matters much to me, as I don't use the term "strict vegetarian", but I guess it's really a function of how one was raised, right?

[eclectic_one]

I think that what she's saying is that they have chosen not to eat meat, dairy, eggs, honey, etc...not that they always avoided those products. Think how few of us there would be if it meant that you could never have eaten or used those products

[madpogue]

That's why I was (and still am) wondering about the "never ate" phrase.

[Lorrs]

I would consider a strict vegetarian to be someone who is concerned about gelatine, ensures they eat vegetarian cheese, avoids wearing leather etc.

Someone who says they are a vegan but wears leather is a person following a vegan diet - a dietary vegan.

Someone who cuts out all animal products from their life would be referred to as living a vegan lifestyle.

[UrbanVegan]

I've had a vegan diet for three years and until I joined this forum I've never heard of the phrase "strict vegetarian". I was having cookies with my parents this past Sunday at Whole Foods. (They make the best vegan cookies). My dad eats fish but does not eat any other meat or dairy/eggs. I mentioned to him about some conversations I had on this forum and asked what he thought. He was shocked that someone who has a vegan diet would not be considered a vegan. He has the same definition of veganism that I have.

Personally, I still see a strict vegetarian the same as a dietary vegan. And I think dietary vegan is much clearer for people to understand. When it comes to diet, vegetarian and vegan do not mean the same. Because of where I live I have no doubts that if I called myself a strict vegetarian and then was asked to explain I would be told that's being a vegan.

I have come to realize that the word vegan really does have different connotations depending on what part of the globe you live on. It means different things to different people. I realize down in the southern United States when I say vegan it means a specialized diet. But if I were to go to Europe people would assume that when I say vegan I have a no animal product lifestyle based on an animal rights precept.

It is true that the definition of a word can change from one locale to another.

[eclectic_one]

I think it's even more localized than that. Where I live (in a SMALL Southern town), they have no idea what ANY kind of vegan is...I actually think a few thought I was a Satanist or something when I used the word! Even after I explained (only) the dietary part, they seemed shocked that I hadn't fallen dead a second after I became vegan. I certainly hope that you don't feel "put upon" by the different descriptions of what vegan means and continue on your evolution to be the "best" vegan you can be That's what I'm trying to do in my own life

[VeganJohn]

If I were going to define what 'being vegan' is, then I would look to the Vegan Society's definition. After all, they (or more specfically Donald Watson) are the ones who invented the term and what it stands for back in 1944 are they not?

To me, it certainly isn't about just diet, although strict vegetarian could be a useful term in situations where you have to explain your dietary preferences, where the term 'vegan' may not be correctly understood.

[UrbanVegan]

I think it's even more localized than that. Where I live (in a SMALL Southern town), they have no idea what ANY kind of vegan is...I actually think a few thought I was a Satanist or something when I used the word! Even after I explained (only) the dietary part, they seemed shocked that I hadn't fallen dead a second after I became vegan. I certainly hope that you don't feel "put upon" by the different descriptions of what vegan means and continue on your evolution to be the "best" vegan you can be That's what I'm trying to do in my own life

It's all good Once I got past the culture shock when I joined this forum then I realized it was just that a cultural difference of the understanding of veganism.

I realize we must do what we can to make a difference in the community we live in. If a vegan diet gets more vegan restaurants to open or more vegan choices on the menu that's awesome. That's my vegan focus. To help people eat healthier. I realize that veganism encompasses different elements from diet to animal rights to environmental issues. And each vegan goes vegan for their own reasons. Not all vegans become vegans for animal rights and not all vegans are vegan for simply health reasons. But we all contribute to the betterment of our societies and that's a major positive achievement. If some people focus on animal rights then the animals are helped. If others are focused on diet then human beings are helped. That way no one species declines due to the other.

[UrbanVegan]

If I were going to define what 'being vegan' is, then I would look to the Vegan Society's definition. After all, they (or more specfically Donald Watson) are the ones who invented the term and what it stands for back in 1944 are they not?

Maybe then there is the concept of a vegan traditionalist and a vegan contemporary. A traditional vegan goes by what was defined in 1944 while a contemporary vegan goes by the evolved meaning of today.

[Wishin986]

UrbanVegan - since you originally thought the term vegan was strictly a dietary term and your personal motivation behind veganism is a healthier lifestyle have you since (after visiting this forum) eliminated animal products in your material goods that you buy? (this is not meant to be an attack or anything I'm just curious is all as we are getting into how the term vegan has evolved and that kind of thing)

[Seaside]

Maybe then there is the concept of a vegan traditionalist and a vegan contemporary. A traditional vegan goes by what was defined in 1944 while a contemporary vegan goes by the evolved meaning of today.

No. There is no evolved meaning. Its the same as it always has been. It has to be, because of all the myriad ways people want to interpret it to suit themselves. If we acknowledge that since 1944, veganism has changed to include those who use animal products in clothing, especially if the articles of clothing were given as gifts or extremely expensive, in another decade or two it will evolve to include those who want to call themselves vegan and still eat ice cream, cheese, or fish.

Being vegan isn't about the evolution of a label, or getting permission from a "committee" of some sort to call yourself a vegan when you are what you perceive as 85%, 90%, or 99% vegan. The definition of what veganism is is simple, easy to understand, and easy to live up to, if what you really want is to avoid exploiting animals.

[terrace max]

The definition of what veganism is is simple, easy to understand, and easy to live up to, if what you really want is to avoid exploiting animals.

I agree emphatically, and I'd emphasise that 'want' bit. Once you've made the irrevocable change in your heart to treat all other animals as you'd want to be treated yourself...then the labels, the 'lifestyle' posturing, become redundant.

[eve]

I agree with that, a vegan is someone following a vegan lifestyle, not just diet, and certainly not cheating! Who are they cheating if not themselves and the animals they are supposed to avoid exploiting.

As to the term strict vegetarian, for those who apparently eat honey etc, why bother, why not just refer to yourselves as vegetarians, after all veggies can eat anything including fish, eggs, chicken, cheese, honey, etc. One person I know says she is a vegetarian who only eats white meat!

This is a vegan forum, and surely we know what our lifestyle comprises? Why complicate matters by straying from the definition given by the Vegan Society or by Donald Watson?

[DianeVegan]

I've referred to myself as a strict vegetarian in certain restaurants because some people can't wrap their minds around the concept of veganism. And I'm sure I've eaten animal products when not preparing food myself - I've worked in restaurant kitchens and even if your server understands veganism it doesn't mean the chef will. So the food aspect of veganism is simple - if you always prepare your own food or only eat in establishments that understand veganism.

But when it comes to medicine, travel, transportation, bedding (in other homes or hotels), soap in public restrooms, furniture and all the other aspects of life that we can't control - well then it's about doing the best you can. Certainly if I were a new vegan with little financial resources I would not feel welcome being told that I'm not vegan because I still have old leather shoes and can't afford new ones. Or that I have a donated rug or furniture with wool or feathers in the cushions because I can't afford to purchase these items.

I don't agree with levels of veganism or being "mostly" or "almost" vegan if you are making vegan choices when you actually have a choice. None of us are able to control the processing or ingredients of all the products we use in our working lives or personal lives. Therefore it's always about making vegan choices when possible.

[applecrumble]

Well if you're strict then this is for you http://veganerotica.com/

[Korn]

I've referred to myself as a strict vegetarian in certain restaurants because some people can't wrap their minds around the concept of veganism.

For the same reason I sometimes say 'I only eat vegetarian food - not lacto-vegetarian.', and make sure I mention the word vegan too, in hope that my grandgrandgrandchildren won't have problems ordering vegan food...

[UrbanVegan]

UrbanVegan - since you originally thought the term vegan was strictly a dietary term and your personal motivation behind veganism is a healthier lifestyle have you since (after visiting this forum) eliminated animal products in your material goods that you buy? (this is not meant to be an attack or anything I'm just curious is all as we are getting into how the term vegan has evolved and that kind of thing)

I have not changed how I shop for non-food items. I have not bought any clothes, shoes, our household furniture since I've been on this forum. I'm buying tennis shoes within the next week and I'll see how that goes. I have stop buying Burger King onion rings.

[UrbanVegan]

Being vegan isn't about the evolution of a label, or getting permission from a "committee" of some sort to call yourself a vegan when you are what you perceive as 85%, 90%, or 99% vegan.

True it's not about permission or appeasing the "vegan police". We each have to live veganism in our lives as we choose and make a difference in our own community. I know that I make an impact on my co-workers with my vegan diet and every now and then they make a vegan food choice and come to me with excitement of what they either cooked or tried while out dining. I'm glad they made that one adjustment and I feel good they want to tell me about it. "Each one reach one" is my motto. And if calling my diet vegan (which it is) helps others try an animal free food choice then I'm more than happy to call myself vegan. It has never occurred to me to stop calling myself vegan or consider myself a non-vegan.

When I'm in the grocery store and someone overhears my conversation on a vegan diet and others look at what I'm buying then I'm making an impact. I've worked hard to overcome eating animal products and to change the way I shop for food and how I view going out to eat. So I have no issues what so ever calling myself vegan and I do so proudly

[UrbanVegan]

I've worked in restaurant kitchens and even if your server understands veganism it doesn't mean the chef will.

That's the truth. I've had food come to my table and the waiter says "but I told him no dairy". And I"m thinking why did he bring this to the table then

[UrbanVegan]

Well if you're strict then this is for you http://veganerotica.com/

ohhhhhhhhhhhhh k That's taking your veganism seriously.

[VeganRunner]

I was wondering where people draw the line when it comes to Veganism vs. Strict Vegetarianism.

I personally think one can say they are vegan if since they decided to go vegan they have abstained as much as possible from buying any products, be it food or other material goods, that contain animal products for themselves. I say buy because I do not include old items that someone wants to get the most use out of them that they can as to not waste them.

I would call people who only follow a "vegan diet" and do not think twice about buying leather or occasionally "cheating" on said diet a vegan but I would call that person a strict vegetarian. I would call them a strict vegetarian because the only are concerned w. dietary factors and animal treatment doesn't necessarily interest them. An example I have is that there is someone who claims to be vegan who doesn't think twice about buying leather goods and just the other weekend was seen in a local restaurant splitting a brownie and ice cream dessert and also using cream in coffee. I would say that is almost a strict vegetarian - assuming that they actually do follow a mostly "vegan diet" other than restaurant incidents.

I thought I would spark up this debate because I stated something on the levels of veganism thread and I don't think I accurately articulated what I meant so I figured I would start this thread so people can say where they personally draw the line.

Wishin- just wondering why you are watching this person so closely that you saw "cheating"? Why do you care if the person is having a brownie sundae? That is their decision...not yours. I do feel that veganism is about complete devotion to betting the world and not using animal products, but even if the person is eating dairy...they are most likely still a vegetarian (I'm assuming?) Any one person who does not eat meat is saving thousands of animals lives throughout their lifetime so let's focus on that fact. No point in getting caught up in petty details- especially when they don't concern you. Sorry if I sound blunt but that is how I feel and I totally respect how you feel as well- but that's JMO.

[Wishin986]

Well actually I'm not watching the person closely - a friend of mine brought it up to me. I used it as an example - I follow definitions closely and I never ever half ass anything I do - I just don't believe in it. Therefore, I guess sometimes it strikes a chord when people do half ass things. Misusing the word vegan is a pet peeve so I hate when people do it - and that was one example - there are a lot of others but that was the most intense of what I mean in how the word vegan often gets misconstrued - a lot of people are out there just to use it as a weight loss tool or a fad diet and I don't think that should be classified as veganism but strict vegetarianism considering its centered around vanity and not animals. It gives veganism a bad name. Dont get me wrong vegetarianism is great theres just a big difference. Plus this is a vegan forum where we discuss vegan issues not vegetarian issues so while vegetarianism is a worthwhile cause I am going to stick to discussing how the benefits of veganism go even beyond that of vegetarianism.

Its interesting that you decided to get very defensive about a "petty detail" when I only used it as an example to demonstrate my definition of veganism vs. strict vegetarianism. A lot of members use examples about dealing w. other omnis and people. I used it to spark a debate - the question being where should the line be drawn - and its funny how you avoided the point of my whole thread to focus on a petty detail that, unless im mistaken, does not concern you either. Its also funny how you called it a brownie sundae when im pretty sure i just said brownie and ice cream dessert which could just be a brownie w. a scoop of ice cream on the side - but oddly enough thats exactly what its called on the menu. Also a good amount of people go back to being an omni as well as vegetarians so I personally wouldn't just assume they are vegetarian.. unless I knew for sure that is - which you wouldn't - right? and that is just my opinion.

[Seaside]

I follow definitions closely and I never ever half ass anything I do - I just don't believe in it. Therefore, I guess sometimes it strikes a chord when people do half ass things. Misusing the word vegan is a pet peeve so I hate when people do it - and that was one example - there are a lot of others but that was the most intense of what I mean in how the word vegan often gets misconstrued - a lot of people are out there just to use it as a weight loss tool or a fad diet and I don't think that should be classified as veganism but strict vegetarianism considering its centered around vanity and not animals. It gives veganism a bad name. Dont get me wrong vegetarianism is great theres just a big difference. Plus this is a vegan forum where we discuss vegan issues not vegetarian issues so while vegetarianism is a worthwhile cause I am going to stick to discussing how the benefits of veganism go even beyond that of vegetarianism.

Well said Wishin.

[Wishin986]

Well said Wishin.

Why thank you Seaside

[Wishin986]

I have not changed how I shop for non-food items. I have not bought any clothes, shoes, our household furniture since I've been on this forum. I'm buying tennis shoes within the next week and I'll see how that goes. I have stop buying Burger King onion rings.

very nice! haha maybe you can make your own onion rings that will probably be even better

[applecrumble]

I have heard people describe themselves as "near vegans", "nearly vegan", "almost vegan" etc, one said "I am as near to being a vegan as I can get - I still put milk in tea."

I prefer those terms to people trying to bend the word to fit their actions.

[moonshadow]

wishin-- i'm reminded of one of bryce's (dh) cousins who we were visiting who said, 'your vegan, wow, i am too!' whilst wearing a leather jacket (not fake, either...) and then later that day (we were visiting them) ate some cookies that were storebought and not vegan.

when i asked her about it, she did one of those, 'oh, well, you know, i'm impressed by those vegans who can manage without leather and stuff' comments and proceded to change the subject. she said she ate meat and fish when she was travelling for a year, too. because, 'you have to when you're travelling'.

whatever. we don't get angered by her, but we do laugh about it a lot. poor deluded girl. and she was a student at the most vegan college at our vegan friendly university... maybe she just got it in her head that it's cool, or something.

[treehugga]

Being vegan is so much about the ethics and avoiding cruelty to animals and has been since the beginning. How awful to push these aside as though they are an after thought, second only to dietry. I actually find this insulting and was grateful to find a forum that so strongly stated in it's guidelines that this was such a strong consideration of being on here. That is so we don't have to constantly argue about it, like we already spend so much of our time doing with people who aren't vegans. I understand people are interested in the topic but feel it's been debated to death in the 'levels of veganism' thread already.

[Korn]

I used it as an example

I do this often myself (...which may not be a good idea, as English not my main language, and I'm confused re. when to write ie. and eg. and so on... ), and/but I think using examples often is the best way to explain what I mean. I think a common misunderstanding - when people discuss the definition of 'vegan' - is that some people think we are policing what others do when we focus on veganism not being only about diet.

Donald Watson - one of founders of the vegan movement and inventor of the word 'vegan' - was known to have a strong, general interest in finding out exactly what people meant when they were using certain words, which makes a lot of sense, because we communicate with words, and therefore it's important to know if we use the same definition of the words we communicate with... like 'vegan', 'rude, 'God', 'love', 'grumpy'....

Dont get me wrong vegetarianism is great theres just a big difference.

That's it: it's brilliant that people give up meat or dairy, but being vegan is not only about diet. Some people think we are being arrogant when we point out that eating dairy or buying leather is not part of being vegan, but miss that we want to keep the original definition of the word 'vegan', and not end up with terms like 'lacto-vegan' or 'vegan, but use fur', or 'ovo-honey-vegan' etc.

Why do you care if the person is having a brownie sundae? That is their decision...not yours.

With all due respect, VeganRunner, I think you misunderstand. It was an example, but also, and not totally un-important: from a vegan point of view, it's up to the cows, and not up icecream-loving people to decide if they shall dedicate their life to serve humans with dairy products. Don't get me wrong, but in a way, if someone want to use the mothers' milk of a cow or pig or human to make a dessert, it's not 'their decision', or at least it shouldn't be: it should be the decision of the sentient beings that are kept in captivity in order to give os pleasure or nourishment.

The less animal products people use, the better for the animals. We can both focus on keeping the definition of vegan intact, and be supportive of positive changes people are making in their lives at the same time, even if they are not as perfect as we would want them to be... supporting the good often is a much better solution than condemning the bad. In a non-vegan world, nobody are 'perfect vegans' anyway...

So, stating that using leather or eating ice cream is not part of vegan may be important to do now and then, just to remind people who don't know much about veganism that it's not only a diet or something something vegans follow when it's convenient.

I'm sure people occasionally will misinterpret what we say or write (and some vegans actually are judgmental when seeing people who are acting 'un-veganly', which probably push people away) - but being a minority, I guess we just have to get used to a certain amount of misunderstanding and misinterpretation.

[ravenfire]

I also hate that the term is being watered down. Our local wild oats has started labeling dishes with honey in them vegan and we have a local restaurant with a vegan menu that has a salad with honey dressing. Someone told me that they saw a jar of pickled eggs that was labeled vegetarian and vegan friendly!! We have a set definition of what veganism is written by the founder, Donald Watson. I think that if someone wants to do something different than what he intended, they should also come up with their own word describing what they are.

I think that people have gotten too caught up in the statement "it's impossible to be 100% vegan". What we mean when we say that is that we all use computers, drive cars, etc. There are things that are impossible to avoid. But some people have taken that and twisted it to mean that they can wear leather or eat honey because "no on can be a perfect vegan anyway".

[treehugga]

I agree with you Ravenfire. That was a good way to put it

[jennyL]

I don't eat meat, seafood, dairy or eggs. I don't consider myself a vegan because my car has leather seats, and I have a LOT of old shoes and bags that are leather. I can't see myself ever purchasing anymore leather items, and I'd never buy another car with leather seats, but I do still use my old leather things. It's been my understanding that a true vegan would not continue to use leather items, even if they were purchased before becoming vegan. Anyway, I still use the leather things that I have. I would consider my diet to be vegan, but even then it's hard to know 100% for sure if the occasional non-vegan ingredient makes it's way into my diet, especially when dining out.

[jennyL]

I also take many medicines for my asthma, I am sure that they have been tested on animals at some point, and some of the pills might contain some kind of animal product, but I continue to take them on a daily basis. Would a vegan stop taking medicines that were tested on animals? What if you needed these medicines to survive? I guess it's obvious that I am relatively new to a vegan lifestyle.

[eve]

JennyL, in answer to your last two questions, if a vegan needs life-saving medication, they the life must surely come first. How can you possibly help animals if you are dead.

As to your understanding that a true vegan would not continue to use leather items, even if they were purchased before becoming vegan, that is up to the individual. Personally, but that's just me, once I took to a vegan lifestyle, there was no way that I'd be comfortable wearing leather goods. I think it's a bit different if your car has leather seats - you can hardly throw them out, but perhaps use seat covers. You are still a vegan.

And by the way, a vegan is a vegan - what is a "true vegan" that you refer to? There's no vegan rule book that lays down the law - it is up to the individual to avoid eating or wearing animal products, etc, to the best of their ability and circustance. Good luck.

[Korn]

The term 'vegan' is defined by using the words 'avoiding animal products as far as practical and possible'. We live in a world not at all focused on avoiding animal products. Nobody expect vegans to move into a cave in the Himalayas in order to avoid animal products. I agree with Eve: if you need medicine, and due to circumstances you can't be held responsible for, only a non-vegan version of that medicine is available, it's not 'possible/practical' to live in a way that relies on a vegan version... it doesn't exist yet!

Remember that calling or writing a school, medical company or cafe and ask them to provide a vegan version of whatever they produce/provide has a lot more impact that just avoiding that non-vegan product. They may not even notice if you don't buy their product, but they will notice requests for future products. Maybe we should have a members only forum somewhere with standard letters/emails to kindergartens, media, canteens, hospitals, hotels etc requesting a wider variety of (information about) vegan options, with a short/good explanation about why many people want to avoid animal products?

[DianeVegan]

That is a brilliant idea! Who is good at letter writing? Volunteers???

[treehugga]

Now if only we can all agree on what a vegan is

[Wishin986]

Now if only we can all agree on what a vegan is

details details

[eclectic_one]

JennyL, in answer to your last two questions, if a vegan needs life-saving medication, they the life must surely come first. How can you possibly help animals if you are dead.

As to your understanding that a true vegan would not continue to use leather items, even if they were purchased before becoming vegan, that is up to the individual. Personally, but that's just me, once I took to a vegan lifestyle, there was no way that I'd be comfortable wearing leather goods. I think it's a bit different if your car has leather seats - you can hardly throw them out, but perhaps use seat covers. You are still a vegan.

And by the way, a vegan is a vegan - what is a "true vegan" that you refer to? There's no vegan rule book that lays down the law - it is up to the individual to avoid eating or wearing animal products, etc, to the best of their ability and circustance. Good luck.

I agree Eve I know I still use some leather items that I aquired LONG before becoming vegan, but I am trying to "phase them out" as I do feel some growing cognitive dissonance about it. If anyone asked me why I wear leather, I would mention something out of one of Jo Stepaniak's books (and other vegan materials I've read): that sometimes buying new items would cause more environmental harm than using what you already have. Some of the "fake" leathers are actually very damaging to the environment or human rights (the treatment of the workers) and one pair I bought actually made my feet break out I have bought a couple of pair of vegan shoes since and love them I will not be buying any leather shoes in the future either! So even though I'm not happy about it, I am still, on occasion, wearing my leather shoes I do also have to take some medicines that I know were animal tested

[treehugga]

Not if you source them properly !

[Jesse]

I would rather call myself a vegetarian, even if don´t use leather, wool etc.. any animal product I can avoid.

Veganism is something I would rather distance myself from since it has some characteristics I don´t want to be associated with.
So I have resoveld my cognitive dissonance problem by calling myself vegetarian and not using any animal products.

[treehugga]

Can i ask what those characteristics are?

[poppy seed]

I don't eat meat, seafood, dairy or eggs. I don't consider myself a vegan because my car has leather seats, and I have a LOT of old shoes and bags that are leather. I can't see myself ever purchasing anymore leather items, and I'd never buy another car with leather seats, but I do still use my old leather things. It's been my understanding that a true vegan would not continue to use leather items, even if they were purchased before becoming vegan. Anyway, I still use the leather things that I have. I would consider my diet to be vegan, but even then it's hard to know 100% for sure if the occasional non-vegan ingredient makes it's way into my diet, especially when dining out.

Honestly, I could have written this word for word - right down to the damn leather seats on my '01 Jetta (which I can't afford to replace until I get the son graduated from college in two years). I hope you feel like you are making progress, JennyL - I know I do. I do tend to over explain things when I'm asked about it, though, and I am working on being a little more succinct.

Does anyone fear that veganism is becoming trendy, and having it's definition be diluted? Would it be good or bad to have more not-quite-true vegans misusing the definition?

[Seaside]

Does anyone fear that veganism is becoming trendy, and having it's definition be diluted? Would it be good or bad to have more not-quite-true vegans misusing the definition?

What bothers me about veganism seen as a trend, is that people misunderstand the reason for becoming vegan. People set out on a path towards veganism, and wherever they are on that path is good, as it is reducing animal exploitation to one degree or another. Some may never go so far as to make reduced animal suffering their main goal, and that's ok, I guess, because at least they are making more effort than most. But if a person is choosing this path just so that they may "qualify" for the vegan "label", they are missing the whole point, and when they then turn around and condemn ethical vegans for being too fanatical and exclusive because they won't accept a person who eats honey or uses second-hand leather as a vegan it is unfair. I personally feel that the definition of veganism is a simple one, and it must be maintained as it is, since none of us can live up to it 100%. Trying to dilute the definition to fit how a person lives, because that person won't live up to the main goal of veganism, is really kind of self-serving. And there is a big difference between those who can't, for various reasons like cost, or needing life-saving medication, and people who won't, because they think some aspects of veganism are too extreme.