To mainsteam or to boycott?

[Mystic]

I would like to start a FRIENDLY debate between mainstreaming veganism, or boycotting "evil" corporations.
For example, I know McDonalds is horrible - it is responsible for the deaths and suffering of many animals, as well as contributing to obesity etc... But, what if they had a vegan option? Would you eat their hashbrowns and fries, as they contain no animal products? I personally believe that mainstreaming veganism not only makes life easier for us, but it shows these horrible corporations that there is a better way, and will hopefully eventually lead them in the right direction.
When responding, please keep in mind that all of us have different comfort zones with what we will and won't do...please respect that.

[treehugga]

Well as you know I'm not very respectful but I'll have a go!

I believe the only way to get through to the multigreeds is to boycott, but I understand the rationale of encouraging vegan options by choosing those if they're supplied.
HOWEVER
When you have a blatant corrupt company like Macca's, KFC, Nike, Nestles etc whose ethics are abbhorrant and target children. Then, No. I don't believe they deserve 1 cent of my hard earned cash to support their cause, which is pure greed.

[treehugga]

Every bit of money we give them supports ALL their revolting deeds.

There was a recent survey (can't remember where I read it now) but it said that despite the healthier alternatives the majority of food our already obese children were consuming from Macs was the crap options. The so called 'healthier' options were more to lure parents into the store.

WARNING STRONG OPINION

I believe that any parent who buys the calorie laden, malnourished food from 'those' stores is perpetrating a type of child abuse and contributing to major health problems later in life.

Even if tomorrow they said they would make 1/2 their menu vegan I would still not support them.

[vegan1969]

I believe the only way to get through to the multigreeds is to boycott, but I understand the rationale of encouraging vegan options by choosing those if they're supplied.
HOWEVER
When you have a blatant corrupt company like Macca's, KFC, Nike, Nestles etc whose ethics are abbhorrant and target children. Then, No. I don't believe they deserve 1 cent of my hard earned cash to support their cause, which is pure greed.

ditto

[thecatspajamas1]

When you buy from McDonald's, even if you're not buying meat, your money is going towards deforesting the rainforest. I love french fries, but if I want them I'll go to a diner or something.

I personally boycott McDonalds and Walmart, and there are a lot of other places I avoid (ex. fast food,)

When you have a blatant corrupt company like Macca's, KFC, Nike, Nestles etc whose ethics are abbhorrant and target children.

Tell me about Nestles. I never heard about what they do. You mean the chocolate company, right?

[chickendude]

And supporting foods that are "accidentally vegan" really don't send the message across. If a diner offered items that were specifically vegan (as in, they promoted it as vegan) and it wasn't just a regular entree that just happened to be animal-free, I would be much more compliant to try it, as I feel that sends more of a message.

[vegan1969]

When you buy from McDonald's, even if you're not buying meat, your money is going towards deforesting the rainforest. I love french fries, but if I want them I'll go to a diner or something.

do you know that there is beef tallow in McDeath fries? yuck!

[kriz]

I would eat there as long as I could be reassured tha my food wasn't fried with other meat - no cross contamination. To me ALL places where they serve meat are the same. The friendly family restaurant around the corner may (or most likely) serve factory farmed meat too...what's the difference?

[treehugga]

I would eat there as long as I could be reassured tha my food wasn't fried with other meat - no cross contamination. To me ALL places where they serve meat are the same. The friendly family restaurant around the corner may (or most likely) serve factory farmed meat too...what's the difference?

MacDonalds have blatant ad campaigns targeting children. They also take people to court who speak out against them. They devastate the environment and the meat they use comes from animals who are often still alive when they are being cut up because they are being butchered on such a massive scale. That's why I couldn't support them even if their unhealthy fries and hash browns were vegan.

[treehugga]

When you buy from McDonald's, even if you're not buying meat, your money is going towards deforesting the rainforest. I love french fries, but if I want them I'll go to a diner or something.

I personally boycott McDonalds and Walmart, and there are a lot of other places I avoid (ex. fast food,)




Tell me about Nestles. I never heard about what they do. You mean the chocolate company, right?

Yes the chocolate company.

They are targeting third world countries by selling and promoting poor quality powdered milk to women. It is promoted as a healthy option for their children. Women are doing this and not breastfeeding as a result, which means their children are not getting essential nutriments that they need and their health is suffering as a result. Nestles are also connected to Loreal, another company with appalling ethics. While we support these companies who are perpetrating these types of abuses, we are sending out a message that we are condoning their actions.

[treehugga]

I would like to start a FRIENDLY debate between mainstreaming veganism, or boycotting "evil" corporations.
For example, I know McDonalds is horrible - it is responsible for the deaths and suffering of many animals, as well as contributing to obesity etc... But, what if they had a vegan option? Would you eat their hashbrowns and fries, as they contain no animal products? I personally believe that mainstreaming veganism not only makes life easier for us, but it shows these horrible corporations that there is a better way, and will hopefully eventually lead them in the right direction.
When responding, please keep in mind that all of us have different comfort zones with what we will and won't do...please respect that.

Sticky, you are so spoilt for all the wonderful vegan options in Melbourne to eat out at. I wonder why you would bother consuming fries and hash browns instead of choosing to have similar options from a vegan friendly environment.

[treehugga]

I don't think corporations of that size and magnitude will ever care what we think. Even their 'healthy' options have been shown to be not so healthy- more fat in them than promoted, so how can we ever trust them when they continue to cook their veggie burgers along with meat patties and mix tallow with their fries.

[kriz]

I wouldn't hang out at McDonalds, that's for sure, but if I was on the road and there was nothing else around, and I KNEW that they had a VEGAN burger, which was made on a separate grill, then I MIGHT considering going there.

[treehugga]

I know what you mean. When my family drove up north on a holiday nearly every petrol station had either a MacDonalds or Hungry Jacks attached and often there would be nothing else for hundreds of kilometers. It's terrible how they have infiltrated even the outback.

[kriz]

Traveling in America is even worse, there are corporations EVERYWHERE...It makes no village unique or charming anymore. Well, small diners don't have much for vegans either, but at least they're not as ugly and greedy.

[Limey]

I dread when I have to travel and look for vegan fare. I haven't had to yet, so it's been nice and easy.
I can't imagine ever wanting anything from McDonald's or some other fast food place. Once upon a time I would consider it and even do it , but not now. I certainly wouldn't trust that their fries are cooked in their own oil. But when you have no other options, I guess you have to do something.

[m.t.ness]

I'm torn on this issue. If there was ever a concerted, honest mainstreaming movement in veganism, I would feel a certain amount of desire to support it. Naturally, of course, such a movement won't happen unless people like us demand it from a grassroots level, but still my aversion for mega-business is such that at this point I'm more inclined to avoid it as much as possible.

[Mystic]

Sticky, you are so spoilt for all the wonderful vegan options in Melbourne to eat out at. I wonder why you would bother consuming fries and hash browns instead of choosing to have similar options from a vegan friendly environment.

I am not saying that I have, it is just hypothetical And trust me, I know how spoilt I am

[treehugga]

I'm glad you were starting to worry me for a moment

[herbwormwood]

but it shows these horrible corporations that there is a better way, and will hopefully eventually lead them in the right direction.
When responding, please keep in mind that all of us have different comfort zones with what we will and won't do...please respect that.

Unfortunately, McDonalds, Walmart and the rest want to maximise their profits. That's why they operate their companies in the ways they do.
I boycott as much as I can but I would never criticise anyone for not doing so. Some people I know here who don't boycott (I am not talking about people on VF but people I know here in my town who share my beliefs) have other priorities, like making ends meet and getting through their day without cracking up.

[treehugga]

I'm not sure what that last post meant .

I have clients who I do budgeting with and I'm horrified the amount of them who have absolutely no fruit and veg on their shopping dockets but visit Macs for tea with their kids 4-5 times a week. I don't mind telling them about the downfalls of their kids eating there. They are amazed at the lower cost of cooking budget meals with fresh fruit and veg and even more amazed at the kids enjoyment of eating them.

[herbwormwood]

I wasn't talking about MacDonalds specifically but boycott lists in general. If a person has limited free time and limited emotional resources and limited budget and a lot of other demands in their life they usually will do what is cheapest and most convenient, if that means not boycotting listed companies, they will not boycott. I quite agree it is cheaper to live off unprocessed foods.

[treehugga]

Oh. Now I'm with you .

Yes I think it's sad that more people don't boycott but would rather do something for convienience. People are amazed when I tell them how I shop (online & at health food shops and co ops etc). It's actually not that hard, time consuming or expensive. I work have a family, go to gym 5x a week and do numerous other things and manage to boycott and managed to do this financially quite easily even when I was a student, single parent living on govt payments. I think I'll write a book on it, maybe to try and inspire others on how to live well and easily on a budget while not supporting multi greeds.

[Wildflower]

I dread when I have to travel and look for vegan fare. I haven't had to yet, so it's been nice and easy.
I can't imagine ever wanting anything from McDonald's or some other fast food place. Once upon a time I would consider it and even do it , but not now. I certainly wouldn't trust that their fries are cooked in their own oil. But when you have no other options, I guess you have to do something.

Try Subway!

They seem to be everywhere i travel in the US, and you can get a veggie sandwich on vegan bread - it's yummy.

I wasn't raised on fast food, so it never occurs to me to stop at those places. I travel in the car a lot, and i if I am hungry, I will stop at a gas station/quicky mart kinda place and buy some convience food (like nuts, chips, fruit, coffee, etc). I also do like subway for a veggie sandwich, but that is it, otherwise I bring food with.

that being said, one could argue (like my boyfriend does) that I shouldn't purchase foods (or gas, etc) from gas stations that are south american owned or supplied, as they are completely corrupt, over priced, destroy the environment (rainforests), are affiliated with militia groups that condone torture and people/drug trafficking, etc.

So...you can't win, huh?

Anyway, I believe that healthy vegan options should be available at mainstream fast food resturaunts, maybe not so that vegans would buy them, but so that meat eaters would be more exposed to healthy, meat/dairy free foods. If vegans chose to also eat there, then that gives them a choice too. Really, I think all people should stop eating fast food, because it is generally unhealthy and I think people should cook more and spend more time eating at home as families.

Interesting topic!

[herbwormwood]

that being said, one could argue (like my boyfriend does) that I shouldn't purchase foods (or gas, etc) from gas stations that are south american owned or supplied, as they are completely corrupt, over priced, destroy the environment (rainforests), are affiliated with militia groups that condone torture and people/drug trafficking, etc.

This could be a whole new topic!!! There are a few south american states whose governments are self admittedly left wing and elected with huge popular support but not all are as corrupt as certain other american governments!!!
From what I have read it appears the US government sees the south american left wing states as a huge threat, possibly as they have not toed the line on some "free trade" globalisation issues such and it has even tried to assasinate some of their leaders. Given that the current top dog in the US is deep in family connections to the oil industry (fact) and paying the saudi regime in order to secure oil (fact), and has gone to war in the middle east over oil (many people's opinion) I think there would be a fair bit to debate. I seem to recall oil companies have featured somewhere else on VF?

[cwih57]

I don't mind buying mainstream for the reasons listed previously. I know that others disagree but I think it damages the movement as a whole to appear to "far-out" or "like a bunch of crazy hippies" Making veganism approuchable is the key (I feel) to getting it to the masses.

[BRobinson]

i think the vegan movement runs the risk of being marginalized perpetually if it chooses to go the boycott route and reject the mainstream.

People identify themselves by what they are not. Republicans aren't hippies, Hippies aren't fascists, etc. As can be seen in the recent spate of fast food commercials advertising to men, the male population in the US identifies itself as not vegetarian, not emotional, not concerned with superficial details, etc.

As such, what we need to avoid is allowing the mainstream population of the US to identify themselves as not vegan, as not vegetarian. To do so, we have to in a way assimilate, we have to work to not distance ourselves from our comrades. We originated as a marginalized group, with vegetarian once being a laughable state. We need to continue escaping from the margin. To fight mainstreaming is to fight against the very goal of getting the rest of the population to stop eating our fellow animals.

In summary, go mainstream folks.

[madpogue]

The other issue here is whether, in general, to buy local or corporate. I stopped buying McD's long before I went veg*n. If you really want to "vote with your dollars (pounds, drachmas...)", buying local, and using local currency when possible, sends multiple messages, about not only the politics (food, animals, etc), but the economics as well. When you spend a dollar (etc) locally, 2/3 of it stays in the community. When you spend one on a corporate business, 2/3 of it leaves the community.

Travel? That's where some Internet research really helps. The last few times I've travelled to other cities, I found out enough about local businesses in those cities to patronize them when I went. Not only did that address the typical "vegan on the road" issues, I got to see more of the real places I was visiting, and kept at least a few dollars in their communities.

[coconut]

I think it depends on the company. I still buy things from mainstream businesses. I hardly ever buy fast food but if Mcdonalds had a vegan option I still wouldn't eat there. There are many companies I do boycott and these are companies which are doing serious harm and, by being so big, exercise a huge amount of control over what people eat and what's available. So companies like Nestle, Tesco, Mcdonalds etc. are out. It would be very hard to get by if you avoided every company which is involved with things you disagree with. I choose to boycott those that are guilty of the worst crimes.

[veggiewoman]

Yes the chocolate company.

They are targeting third world countries by selling and promoting poor quality powdered milk to women. It is promoted as a healthy option for their children. Women are doing this and not breastfeeding as a result, which means their children are not getting essential nutriments that they need and their health is suffering as a result. Nestles are also connected to Loreal, another company with appalling ethics. While we support these companies who are perpetrating these types of abuses, we are sending out a message that we are condoning their actions.

here's the link that explains about it:
http://www.babymilkaction.org/pages/boycott.html


I am always wondering what to do re where to buy vegan goodies.
I am not a great fan of supermarkets taking over and destroying small businesses regardless of how much cheaper they appear to be (IMO they will only stay cheap till they have forced out every small independent business and then their prices will rocket) , My dilema I find myself in is , do I support smaller businesses that sell the vegan goodies and thats how they partly survive, or do I encourage supermarkets to sell them and therefore maybe showing more "to the masses" by buying them there? Does that make sense? I find a happy mdeium by buying from both but I still feel undecided.

As for boycotting or mainstream- IMO money talks and the fewer people that buy from these evil companies the better, they should hopefully get a message.

[treehugga]

What I've admired about the vegan movement has been their ethics and that despite not going along with the masses, we are so supportive of each other and our beliefs re animal rights. Are we then to support corrupt mainstream companies for fear of others opinions about us? Even though these companies abuse human and animals rights! I would rather support smaller ethical companies who are trying to do the right thing and educate people as to why I do this. Lots of people do this - not just vegans, so I don't think we really run the risk of being frowned upon as a group by the rest of society. I would rather buy a vegan chocolate bar from a small vegan company than a vegan choc bar from a large corporation that is contributing to the deaths of children or animals. Our pockets and where we spend our money speak volumns. The vegan and vegetarian movement is growing and with this we have the power to change things. It would be good if the changes included supporting the companies who have supported us and not the mainstreams who are all profit and just out for a buck.

[Troutina]

At the end of the day I couldn't actually live with the guilt of consciously buying a product just so that I fit in with the mainstream and to appear 'accessible'.

If no one boycotted anything we'd fumble along destroying the planet even more so.

I am such a strong believer in individual change- every person does make a difference.

[treehugga]

I agree Troutina.

Women would still be unable to vote or divorce. Govts would devastate the environment even more than they do now and a lot more animals would continue to be harmed. If we didn't speak out and educate.

[Soyalicius]

Personally I botcott evil companies as much as possible. I would never buy feed from Macdonalds because of there corruption. I used to get delicious homous and salad sandwiches from Preta Manager then found out they were owned my Macdonalds grrr, no more going there.

Sometimes it is so hard. Boycotting Nestle is something I am very strict with and then they go buying out all other little companies. But still I feel I can only do my best.

Still I would not buy from L'Oreal, prpctor and gamble, nike addidas or other companies that exploit animals and children, that I know of.

It is a minefiled out there, so hard at times.

I hope this reads as understandable, there are so many issues.

[treehugga]

It is difficult. I also send the companies a letter telling them why I am choosing to boycott. It does make a difference.

[Soyalicius]

One thing that is going to be hard, now I have a baby. Is that when he gets older and his mates want parties at Macdonalds. Do I let him go or now? Because Macevil gets into the minds of children thinking how wonderful he is this is going to be a problem.

Anyone else had this problem with their little ones??

[pat sommer]

regarding birthday parties... since my little one started asking questions (about 2 years old) I have given her honest answers; she is a 4 yr old vegan of her own choice. Trust your kids.

Boycott: me personally, all the above mentioned abusers. But, having said that, I take the position I learned in the Bagavad Gita: best choices for the spiritual state the person is in. So, if someone could not IMAGINE living without fast food I would recommend places with vegan options. And if the group I happened to be with HAD to stop at such a place I might innocently ask for healthy food at the counter for the fatties to overhear then settle for OJ! And of course I am always laden with goodies to share....

[treehugga]

One thing that is going to be hard, now I have a baby. Is that when he gets older and his mates want parties at Macdonalds. Do I let him go or now? Because Macevil gets into the minds of children thinking how wonderful he is this is going to be a problem.

Anyone else had this problem with their little ones??

Yes I've posted on this issue a number of times I think in the 'McDonalds' thread and 'what did your kids eat today' thread.

It's only become a problem for me now that my son has turned 4. Most of his friends eat at Macs. I have explained why we don't eat there and what most of their food consists of and this used to work until recently. He now wants to eat there whatever the cost and I now resort to just saying 'no' and finding vegan substitutes, like pizza or something. However, he is still not satisfied with that and feels I am some how cheating him.

[herbwormwood]

However, he is still not satisfied with that and feels I am some how cheating him.

Don't let his feelings influence you to give in. You are the adult and you are in charge, he has to eat what you feed him, same as any other child does. At 4 years of age he cannot make informed healthy choices.
Obviously his freinds are influencing him and peer pressure is a powerful thing. But don't let him get the impression you are worried about not pleasing him, children can pick up on subtle signs from their parents. If you give this impression, he'll try harder to get you to let him eat there.
Try to plan your routes so you don't pass Mc's, as if he sees their logos he will pester more.

[treehugga]

Don't let his feelings influence you to give in. You are the adult and you are in charge, he has to eat what you feed him, same as any other child does. At 4 years of age he cannot make informed healthy choices.
Obviously his freinds are influencing him and peer pressure is a powerful thing. But don't let him get the impression you are worried about not pleasing him, children can pick up on subtle signs from their parents. If you give this impression, he'll try harder to get you to let him eat there.
Try to plan your routes so you don't pass Mc's, as if he sees their logos he will pester more.

No I don't intend to give in - I despise McDonalds and if he wants to eat it he'll have to wait til he's old enough to spend his own money on it. They're not getting 1 red cent of mine. It still doesn't make it easy. There's a Mc's right near his creche and one directly across from where he does Karate. I dread it if he ever gets asked to a birthday party there. I don't want to isolate him from other kids either. We don't know any other veg*n families and I live in a rural town and would have to travel about 2 hours for a veg*n social outing which I do twice a year.

[pat sommer]

your in a tight spot Treehugga! I guess I have had it easy here in the UK as McD Bdays aren't the norm. I don't actually forbid my 4 yr old but (with some guilt) I have exposed her to some graphic details; perhaps pictures in the near future. And, if and when, as kids do, she experiments I can console myself with the knowledge that a good overdose of grease can create a lifelong veggie!
Finding cool alteratives for parties is tricky: I brought in a guy that folded bamboo animals for her nursery bday party; that went down like a lead balloon. When she went to another childs party I loaded her up on treats first so that she honestly wasn't tempted. It is a minefield out there!

[lavender]

My children are a bit older, nearly 9 yrs and a 12 yr old. The elder one goes out with his friends, none of which are vegetarian or vegans, Ive told him its his choice (when they are tiny we make the choices for them like any parent does) and he choses not to eat meat, drink milk etc, Ive suggested alternatives should he be faced with what to do if they suggest going into McD's for instance. Just so that he was more prepared really, than to influence him , I asked him what he would do if the 'gang' wanted McDs and he said he would suggest they go the chip shop as an alternative preferably the Chinese takeaway as we know exactly what they fry in their oil and what oil they use. He will not set foot in McD's - his choice. They all know his choices and have no probs with it. Most of the time they nip into different shops and get a drink and crisps, he just usually selects to be hungry near the health food store where he knows whats safe LOL. I felt we needed to go over strategies so he didnt flap and feel awkward. he was glad we did.

My younger son will not attend parties at McD's, they are more en vogue for the younger kids Id say the 5 - 8 age range. Luckily there is a huge choice of party venues where I live, giving a hot or cold option, most opt for the cold choice, so its buffet style, which is a bonus for families like ours, you can always take stuff yourself to add to the buffet. If my youngest is invited to a party I make sure that the Mum knows our choices and if its a prob (which it never has been so far) he skips the food, having eaten first, Ive found at most parties, the kids hardly eat anything anyway, they are far more occupied with playing and running riot !

[Daniel]

And supporting foods that are "accidentally vegan" really don't send the message across. If a diner offered items that were specifically vegan (as in, they promoted it as vegan) and it wasn't just a regular entree that just happened to be animal-free, I would be much more compliant to try it, as I feel that sends more of a message.

Right, I've seen this "accidentally vegan" phase thrown around and it is something I cannot take serriously.

There was a diner in Fairfield, Conn, that offered specifically vegan items (including french fries). While the diner wasn't all vegetarian, it was way ahead of McDonald's. Unfortunately the diner closed recently. Better to support a vegan friendly diner than corporation like McDonald's, but it is best to support an all vegan restaurants when possible.

[treehugga]

your in a tight spot Treehugga! I guess I have had it easy here in the UK as McD Bdays aren't the norm. I don't actually forbid my 4 yr old but (with some guilt) I have exposed her to some graphic details; perhaps pictures in the near future. And, if and when, as kids do, she experiments I can console myself with the knowledge that a good overdose of grease can create a lifelong veggie!
Finding cool alteratives for parties is tricky: I brought in a guy that folded bamboo animals for her nursery bday party; that went down like a lead balloon. When she went to another childs party I loaded her up on treats first so that she honestly wasn't tempted. It is a minefield out there!

I do recall seeing a few whimpy bars when i was there. I still giggle at the name

[Demon]

If you boycot a product or company, how do they know that they lost a sale ? If you do, then I think it is important to tell them.

I do tend to buy from mainstream companies if the product is vegan, but I try to fire off emails to customer service departments asking 'is this product vegan ?' or 'can you send me your vegan list' even if they publish on thier websites.

The more enquiries they get, the more visible the issue will be to them.

[my3labs]

If you boycot a product or company, how do they know that they lost a sale ? If you do, then I think it is important to tell them.

Very good point, Demon.

[treehugga]

I always do.

I think it's even more important to support ethical, fair trade and vegan companies and educate the people around you re these companies. Most of my workplace now does this and that's 25 people that may not have if they haden't been informed of these companies. The bigger and more popular these companies become the more accessable they are to more people. They deserve the support. They are putting in the hard yards because of what they believe in and I feel I owe it to them to offer my support.

[Barry]

boycotting is a fine line for me, while i would never eat at mcdonalds, wear nike, adidas ect. for obvious reasons, i do shop regularly at tesco because i don't really feel like i have much choice. i live in the west of ireland, health food shops are ridiculously expensive and the range of food suitable for vegans in irish supermarkets is basically non-existant bar veggies. i have little money as a mature student who's just spent a year being what basically amounts to being an intern and getting paid roughly one third of the national average industrial wage. my girlfriend is in her final year honours degree so she's broke too, especially with ireland being the second most expensive country in europe(it's really ridiculously over the top here, a fact hammered home by a summer on mainland europe last year) i despise the way tesco conduct their business but i find myself in there every week despite this. i'm not really trying to justify myself, it's my choice and if i really didn't want to i wouldn't shop there. anybody else find their finacial situation takes priority sometimes?

[Tempest]

Most of the companies I boycott have committed many abhorent crimes over the years. I think that even if they tried to cater to me, I'd have to reject them. I, being relatively new at this, find new things and reasons to boycott every day. It seems that pretty soon I'll be boycott everything but the local farmer's co-op and bicycle shop.

[cwih57]

If you boycot a product or company, how do they know that they lost a sale ? If you do, then I think it is important to tell them]

When I do "actively" boycott a product which is rarely I always send 3 letters (if I can locate all three people) one to head of marketing one to product development and one to the head of the company, I think this way I have a better chance of someone with desicion making power seeing my concerns.

I answer the e-mail that come in on our companys website (several 100 a day) and e-mails that say they are going to boycott get one of two responses depending on my mood 1) I simply delete it 2) I write a sarcastic "Thank you for your comment and have a great day!" and do nothing.

I assume the same thing happens at most large commerical websites, thats why I avoid simpy sending an e-mail.

When I thought more about it I deceided that I take sort of a "love the sinner hate the sin" approuch to purchases, I don't buy anything that isn't vegan, but I don't rule out shopping at thoughs places for products that are. I think if enough people make there concerns known and don't buy non-vegan products, then the problem will be well on its way to solvingitself, products that don't sell stop being produced, then the offending companies will be motivated to reform to get customers