Veganic my arse

[Mr Flibble]

So, I have a little herb garden. It's great, I live in a city centre on the 3rd floor but I have my own little selection of plants on my balcony for culinary and pleasure use.

This evening we found however that somehow cute little greenfly (aphids) have found their way onto one of my plants. So, being the nice person I am I decided to investigate ways of trying to help them decide that actually they don't want to be there after all, without actually forcefully evicting or worse still bringing them to any harm. After all, they're just doing what they naturally do and if there is no way of achiving it then I'd rather they live out their lives than me masacre them all just because I like having plants to look at.

Armed with google I found The Vegan News (Feb 98), which has the following advice about 'pests' in the 'Pest Control Tips' section:

Slugs and Snails - These slimy, horrible creatures can do a lot of damage in the veganic garden. <snip> Set slug traps: for example: jam jars of stale beer sunk up to their rims into the soil or halves of grapefruits <snip> And, you may still be able to purchase sachets of a microscopic nematode worm from the Organic Gardening Catalogue for about &#163;13.99. These worms, when watered onto the soil, will kill slugs for about 6 weeks
Aphids - Squash blackfly and greenfly with your fingers <snip> You can also control aphids by purchasing either predatory midges or the parasitic wasp
Caterpillars - Brassicas are particularly at risk from attack by the caterpillars of large and small white butterflies. Check your plants regularly, removing any caterpillars immediately and squash caterpillar eggs between your fingers. Keep young plants covered with a fine mesh to prevent adult butterflies from laying their eggs on the plants. Caterpillars can also be controlled biologically, by using sachets of the pathogen, Bacillus thuringiensis. Five, 5 g sachets of this bacterial culture cost &#163;7.30 and can be obtained from the Organic Gardening Catalogue.



What sort of a vegan is this?! Are people only vegan when it's not their stuff in danger?

Anyway, and tips for getting rid of aphids for a vegan not hell bent on mindless destruction? The vegan soc suggests (as do other sites) that you spray them with soap solution, but will this cause them harm as opposed to just making the surface of the plant less tempting?

[Seaside]

Soap will dissolve the fatty coating on the aphids' bodies and cause them to die of dehydration, Mr Flibble. What you can try is to get something bright yellow, and put it near your plants. Aphids (greenfly) like yellow things, and when you see them on whatever yellow object you have placed near your plants, you can carry them away and put them somewhere they will be of less harm, by shaking them or blowing them off into some hardy bushes.

[sugarmouse]

Thats horrible to read:-( I could never do anything likethat i would rather they did eat my plant!
sorry to sabotage your thread,but for a week or too now I had been noticing a bush,which is on my way to work n obviously givin several differnt types of Ladybird a home..loads of them! I love ladybirds so I used to always spend a few moments having a look and watching them.
anyway, on my way to work few days ago,i noticed two stumps where the bush was! someone has chopped it downI keep hoping soem of the ladybirds at least, survived the chopping down of their habitatadn I hope whoever did it gets their cuppupence!!
I wonder how aphids get to places in the first place mr flibble!!!good luck anyways.sorry im not much help!

[veganbikerboy]

I remember reading something about garlic water. But i think that was for black fly on roses but it might work?

Just crush a couple of cloves of garlic into a plant sprayer and fill with water within a couple of days spray onto the plants and the little buggers will bugger off

[feral]

Apparently planting chives in with the herbs keeps them off... same effect as the garlic, they don't like oniony things.

[RedWellies]

You could go and grab Sugarmouse's ladybirds. They eat aphids I believe (not a very vegan solution I suppose!)

I think Seaside's idea will work.

[Mr Flibble]

Well, I took the due and wind idea first - a spray mist of water and fan for a couple of hours. Sort of worked. My lovely assistant also tried brushing them off with a pastry brush. Finally I left the only yellow thing I own on the balcony for a while - a copy of "Stepping into Freedom" by Thich Nhan Hanh (I thought it was apt). Only one decided it wanted to convert to buddhism thou.

I'll give the garlic idea a go tomorrow night - thanks (provided of course it's just a smell they don't like as opposed to disolving them - will read up first ). I was gonna get some chives anyway, so will get some asap. As for ladybirds I don't really support breeding any animals not to mention preditors, so not really an option

Thanks for the soap info Seaside, disturbing if that is the case that the vegansociety recommend it

[Seaside]

Only one decided it wanted to convert to buddhism thou.

Try a pot of yellow daisies. They might like the yellow daisies better than the book.

[Mr Flibble]

As an update - I tried the spraying with water and fan idea a few times, then purchased some chives (which Iw as going to anyway) and draped them over the infected plant. Seems to have done the trick!

[pat sommer]

goodluck with the herb loving beasties. Next year companion planting, nets etc might discourage the wee invaders but once they are there and breeding.... oh and if it continues, ants will show up to lick the residual sugar syrup off the backsides of aphids (and take up permanent residence even 3 floors up). I have to admit to killing. Clean quick squish if its early in the infestation otherwise bye bye plant- your out on the street.

[Cherry]

I wonder how aphids get to places in the first place mr flibble!!!!

Aphids are just wingless greenfly. The mummy greenfly flies to a plant (e.g. on a balcony in Coventry!) and lays an egg, which develops into a female wingless aphid, and then singlehandedly goes about populating the entire plant with baby female aphids. Clever. I can't remember how many little clones they can produce in a day, but it's a lot! At some point, and I'm not quite sure of the exact trigger but presumably it's something to do with running out of leaves, some of the females sprout wings and fly away to another plant. Some of them also develop into (winged) males so that the next year's batch of aphids aren't all inbred

My mum uses the washing up liquid (/kill the aphid through dehydration) approach. She told me that it made it the leaves slippy so they went to find another plant Oops.

[feral]

Mr flibble if you get rooted chives and plant them in the pot it should keep them away all summer, you can divide a chive plant up by hand and stick a little in each pot.

[finnjax]

I've heard planting marigolds next to a plant you want to keep aphid free works too. Garlic too.

[Ginger]

Sorry Mr. Flibble but you will just have to learn to share
In my experience, if the little * bugs* take a liking to your plants you just have to accept it. Frustrating I know, but that is life...
BTW your fire pic looks beautiful.

[Pisces]

This site may be of use. www.veganorganic.net It's based on the Vegan Organic Trust, which is based in Manchester. It's worth a look at.

[cedarblue]

apparently is now called the vegan organic network pisces - i've just joined!

but what about slugs people...WHAT ABOUT SLUGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ruby Rose]

I've tried everything with my slugs to encourage them to relocate without killing them. Coffee grounds, orange peel, garlic - you name it. They just look at it as one grand slug buffet.

The only thing that has actually worked is picking the slugs off (with rubber gloves on for we squeemies), putting them in a tub, and taking them up to the field.

That, and giving up on trying to grow hostas.

[cedarblue]

i've just picked another 12 off this morning and things have def been eaten in the night.

(sigh) this is one of those areas where lots of different things come into play for me:

i want to grow my own food organically - why?
i want organic food that is as fresh as it can be, that hasn't travelled air/road miles adding to a eco footprint. its good for my body to be exercising while gardening, good for my soul for connection with the earth.

i'm also vegan so i dont want to eat, use or harm living creatures.

slugs eat 50&#37; or more of my crops.

i want to maintain my reasons for growing my own food yet if my vegan ethics prevent this??

its food for thought for me....

[RedWellies]

I was told they don't like hair, so cut some off (or nip to the hairdressers) and spread it around. Also, I don't think they like copper (don't know why) but that might not be much help. Maybe some sand or stones around your beds? They wouldn't want to go on that.

Do you have room for a pond? Toads eat slugs (as do hedgehogs). Still death I suppose though.

Do slugs particularly like a certain crop/plant? Maybe plant some "sacrifice" plants in between the ones you want?

[Pisces]

That's interesting about the hair, RedWellies. I'd like to put that to the test when I can grow a veganic garden of my own. I wasn't aware of that possibility.

I found a website, which talks about slugs' dietary habits. It says that decayed vegetation can be part of it's diet. So, using "sacrifice plants" could also be a possibility. Here's the website for more information.
http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.ed...rion_ater.html

Here's an excerpt from the site about its dietary habits.

Food Habits

Arion ater spend most of their time eating. This is done with an enclosed radula that contains transverse rows of sharp teeth. The slug's diet consists mostly of fungi and plants, but is occasionally supplemented by worms, insects, decaying vegetation, and feces. Slugs feed mostly at night when conditions are cool and moist (Long 1999).


There's hope...

[cedarblue]

just though to perhaps sprinkle some peelings, cores, a few odds and ends of compost stuff on the veg bed - maybe slugs would eat that instead of nice green, juicy shoots??? worth a try...dont want to attract rats though, we have a quaggy nearby...

[Sluggie]

A friend of mine picks up her slugs and puts them in the compost bin where they thrive happily and leave her (living) plants alone.

[yum]

perhaps something should be said to these vegan writers about encouraging killing slugs and caterpillers- surely we aren't suppose to chose which life lives or dies just because they like eating our plants. I couldn't kill a caterpiller or a slug or snail (except when i accidently stepped on one and that was very upsetting )
maybe i will write to them

yum
xx

[misssoya]

cant stand slugs and last summer they kept finding way into kitchen ev nite which is just eugh, i used to chuck em all back in the garden late ev nite. found if left light on they didn come in,not good for elec use tho! hope they dont return...

[Jjt]

I think that advice from the website is pretty harsh and not something I would expect from a veganic org. At the same time I think save as many as you can reasonably, but there's too many bugs and the quicker you kill them off the less you have to kill later.

I would just go for whatever kills them the quickest with the least pain. But try the non lethal methods first. If the bugs mean more to you then the plant, which I understand, maybe you should just sacrifice the plant and let all the bugs live.

[horselesspaul]

Raised beds with flat strips of copper on top seem to work. Keeps the slugs and snails at bay but probably hurts them a little chemically which is why they are repelled.
I just pick the b@stards off, give them a good talking to and put them on alternative vegetation 50 metres away.

[cedarblue]

Raised beds with flat strips of copper on top seem to work. Keeps the slugs and snails at bay but

not in my garden it doesn't.....

[horselesspaul]

not in my garden it doesn't.....

My neighbours use it very successfully here. I wonder why that is? Perhaps your slugs and snails are made of sterner stuff, cedarblue.

[horselesspaul]

I think that advice from the website is pretty harsh and not something I would expect from a veganic org. At the same time I think save as many as you can reasonably, but there's too many bugs and the quicker you kill them off the less you have to kill later.

I would just go for whatever kills them the quickest with the least pain. But try the non lethal methods first. If the bugs mean more to you then the plant, which I understand, maybe you should just sacrifice the plant and let all the bugs live.

Killing living things is not vegan, with the possible exception of ending terminal suffering.

[Ginger]

I am NOT a huge fan of slugs and it is totally gutting when they destroy a load of my veggies (and flowers) but you have to accept them (or you would just go crazy )
Just wondering what happens if you remove them to the compost heap? When the time comes to put that compost on the beds, are you just putting all the slugs back? (Not to mention their eggs)

[cedarblue]

there are loads feasting in my compost bin!!

[Sluggie]

I don't know about the eggs, but the sluggies will be munching the fresher stuff at the top, not the earthy stuff at the bottom.

[horselesspaul]

Just found woodlice eating my potatoes down the stems. Enjoy!

[Ginger]

Just found woodlice eating my potatoes down the stems. Enjoy!

That's the spirit!

[horselesspaul]

Not a fan of parasitic lice but the wood louse is an underrated marvel.
Yesterday I removed the boards from around the plot and they had to relocate somewhere dark further away eventually. Well fed, mind.

[cedarblue]

planted out my lettuces today

((bangs gong)) dinner is served slugs!!

[RedWellies]

Good luck, Cedarblue!

[Pisces]

Not a fan of parasitic lice but the wood louse is an underrated marvel.
Yesterday I removed the boards from around the plot and they had to relocate somewhere dark further away eventually. Well fed, mind.

I love wood lice!!! I love all creatures of course, but I agree with you that they are indeed an underrated marvel.

cedarblue, hopefully your extroverted garden guests will enjoy and decide not to wear out their welcome.

[cedarblue]

Just found woodlice eating my potatoes down the stems. Enjoy!

i didn't realise they ate crops like that!!

[horselesspaul]

i didn't realise they ate crops like that!!

I don't know if they eat them or just mulch them down for some reason, but they definitely liked living down the stems. Little scamps.

[cedarblue]

most of lettuces seem to have survived the night - its the same with most crops, once they are looking sturdy and have a little power after being transplanted, they seem ok.

[mrsblobby]

No, no, no – garlic is not a benign fly/aphid deterrent – it actually kills them!
“Horseradish, anise and garlic oils showed the most potent insecticidal activities among the plant essential oils. At 1.25 microL L(-1), horseradish, anise and garlic oils caused 100, 93.3 and 13.3% mortality” (1). Garlic is an instrument of insect murder!
1. Park, I.K., et al., Fumigant activity of plant essential oils and components from horseradish (Armoracia rusticana), anise (Pimpinella anisum) and garlic (Allium sativum) oils against Lycoriella ingenua (Diptera: Sciaridae). Pest Manag Sci, 2006. 62(8): p. 723-8.

[eco]

Raised beds with flat strips of copper on top seem to work. Keeps the slugs and snails at bay but probably hurts them a little chemically which is why they are repelled.
I just pick the b@stards off, give them a good talking to and put them on alternative vegetation 50 metres away.

I read somewhere that the copper gives them the feeling of an electric shock. It doesn't kill them but it does make them think twice about going near the copper again apparently. I couldn't bring myself to use it. I just remove them from the area of my potted plants when they are 'resting' and put them up the far end of the garden where they make their way back again overnight. There's lots for them to eat up there but they much prefer my plants I've given up with so many plants because they are pretty much decimated by them. I'm awaiting the arrival of a compost bin and hopefully they'll decide they like living there.

[horselesspaul]

I read somewhere that the copper gives them the feeling of an electric shock. It doesn't kill them but it does make them think twice about going near the copper again apparently. I couldn't bring myself to use it.

I didn't like the idea of it, personally, hence the laborious relocation process.

Are you sure the same slugs/snails etc are returning to your plants? I know they can shift it a bit when required but only in relative terms..

[eco]

Are you sure the same slugs/snails etc are returning to your plants? I know they can shift it a bit when required but only in relative terms..

The snails in my garden are turbo charged, anyway, I know them all by name so I know it's the same little blighters

[horselesspaul]

The snails in my garden are turbo charged, anyway, I know them all by name so I know it's the same little blighters

Haha. Perhaps you could try appealing to them individually?
"Oi Sammy snail! Get off my land! And you Sunita slug!"
Might work.

[eco]

Haha. Perhaps you could try appealing to them individually?
"Oi Sammy snail! Get off my land! And you Sunita slug!"
Might work.

I tired that, but they ignored me, which is not surprising as they don't have ears. I tried sign language but they just turned their optic tentacles in the opposite direction. I was appalled at their rudeness.

[absentmindedfan]

Can't you put up a sign?

NO SLUGS OR SNAILS
THIS MEANS YOU!

[eco]

I'd have to teach then to read and if the sign language thing is anything to go by, they'll have none of it.

[RedWellies]

You need to hire a slug interpreter.