Omega-3: Vegan DHA / EPA

[sandra]

Sandra -- You definitely sound overwhelmed by all this info -- and understandably so. Would you mind posting what supplements you are currently taking (I don't know why you are taking as many as you seem to be saying you are taking), and what an average daily eating plan looks like. Maybe we can go through it together and simplify things. Only if you want to of course

Best,
Josh

Hi Josh, Here is my daily eating plan, such as it is:-

organic bran flakes with soya milk, cofee [no milk or sugar]
bowl of vegetable soup
baked potato, beans and mixed salad
2 or 3 bottles of water a day

That's about it, obviously I vary the content of the main meal and would eat some fruit, and occasional biscuit and let's not forget a couple of glasses of wine now and then!

The supplements I take are:-

1 [chelated] calcium 333.3mg, magnesium 133.3mg and zinc 8.3mg
1 multi-vitamin and mineral
1 sea kelp iodine tablet 150ug
1 omega oil 3,6 and 9 capsule [gelatin free]

I have to drink a lot of water with these tablets as I don't take them all at once, so that usually fills me up so I don't feel like eating.
Anyway that's about it, I look forward to hearing your views.

Sandra

[j&k]

I actually kind of like your diet, from a simplistic point of view. I can't believe how few calories fill you up. IF you can survive on that little calories, it is certainly good for your longevity.

A few things that are missing from your diet which you should work on adding in are (1) fruit (should be getting three to five servings a day; (2) a small amount of seeds, nuts and/or avocado. Other than that, if this fills you up, I won't complain about the rest.

Supplements -- I'd be curious what is in your multivitamin. IS there a name or something I can look up on the internet to see the ingredients. I am wondering why you are taking a multivite, a calcium/zinc/mag supplement, and an iodine supplement. If I see your multive, it will make things clearer as to whether or not there is redundency or if all of those are actually necessary. I am immediately concerned that the calcium content of your supplements may be too high in relation to your vitamin d content. So, if I can see the ingredients in your multivite I will know better how the proportions all look. Once I see that, I'll comment on the rest.

Best,
Josh

[sandra]

Hi again Josh, thank you for taking the time to help me with my diet. The mulivitamins I am taking are Holland and Barrett vegan multi-vitamin & mineral.

Each tablet contains:-

vitamin A 800ug
vitamin D 5ug
vitamin E 20mg
vitamin C 90mg
Thiamin vit B1 2.5mg
Riboflavin vit B2 2.8mg
Niacin 18mg
vitamin B6 6mg
Folic acid 300ug
vitamin B12 3.5ug
Pantothenic acid 6mg
calcium 200mg
iron 14mg
zinc 15mg

I do eat quite a lot of fruit and have been known to eat a whole bag of peas in the pod at one go! (although I know they're not fruit!) I have been taking the calcium tablets as I seem to wake up every morning with cramps in my feet, and the last time this happened my doctor told me I wasn't getting enough calcium. Am I overdoing the calcium tablets do you think?
Anyway Josh, thanks for your time and advice.

Sandra.

[j&k]

Thanks for the info Sandra! That helps.

First, you already know I'm picky when it comes to supplements, so you will have to pardon my shredding of this supplement. First, unless you have low blood levels of iron, your supplement should absolutely NOT contain iron. Supplemental iron acts as an oxidant in the body, and gets stored in various tissues such as the brain, liver etc. Very unhealthy. So unless you hvae low blood levels of iron, find another supplement that does not have iron (or is food based that has natural iron). Second, no vitamin supplement should contain Vitamin A. Since it is a vegan supplement, it is likely beta carotene rather than preformed vitamin a. Beta Carotene has recently been shown in studies to increase all cause mortality (meaning, it has been shown to shorten your life). Also for smokers, it increases risk of lung cancer. Again, though, food sources of beta carotene are very healthy because they have a natural mix of carotenoids (Which has been shown to be protective against cancers and is very health promoting).

Also, the vitamin D content is too low. You should be consuming 800ius (or 20mcg) of Vitamin D a day at least. Lower levels than this do not raise blood levels of vitamin d to appropriate levels. And, because you live fairly far north of the equator and because you are taking calcium supplements (excess calcium blocks vitamin d absorption), you should definitely be taking more. You can just look for Vitamin d-2 in that amount as a separate supplement if you wish. Or find a higher quality supplement that gives you everything you need in one dosage. You should also find a multi that has selenium and some magnesium.

In terms of your calcium dosage, it's fine to have up to 500mg a day as long as you are also having 20mcg of D.

You know I feel you are better off taking the vegan derived dha to your oil supplement, but that is obviously a choice you need to make.

Unfortunately, people believe that taking supplements is a safe and straightforward practice. But the more you learn, and the more studies come out on it, the more it becomes clear you should be picky about your supplements. I manufactured my own supplement because I could not find anything on the market that followed the results of the studies and was safe and healthy. But, maybe you will have more luck in finding a good supplement.

In all likelihood, the extra calcium, magnesium and zinc is redundant.

So to review what you should be looking for in a supplement in comparison to what you have now:
(1) 20mcgs of D
(2) Selenium and some magnesium (supplement does not need to contain 100% of the recommended daily allowance, just some to help balance)
(3) No supplemental Beta Carotene or Iron (you should be getting plenty from food, or take a whole food supplement that has mixed carotenoids)

Hope this is helpful and not more confusing.

Best,
Josh

[sandra]

Hello again Josh, The information you have given me is very helpful, thank you. Do you think then that I should stop taking the multi-vitamin? Also, any time I have had my blood checked for iron levels they have always been perfect so I probably could do without the extra iron. I was always under the apprehension that it didn't do you any harm to take supplements as your body just got rid of any excess, is this not the case?
Lastly, the DHA thing, can you get that from eating seaweed or does it have to be in tablet form? Once again, Josh, thank you for your time and help, it is much appreciated.

Sandra.

[Haniska]

Fiamma -- While the food pyramid may be more healthy than what some people eat, it comes far from representing an ideal diet. I think you may be tired from eating too many grains and starches, not the other way around

I think that deal with that is when they first figured out that fat causes heart disease etc they thought, "Well, what can we use to replace the fat calories? Let's use starch, its high in fiber and no way is the average joe going to get enough from vegetables."

[j&k]

Yes, I would stop taking that multi-vitamin, but as you know, I do recommend a good multivite. You know mine is out there, but it is very-high end and not cheap. I can point you in the direction of a cheaper one which is good enough (But as always, you get what you pay for). The iron in that multivite is more than sufficient for you to stop taking it. Supplemental iron also causes stomach discomfort, nausea, diarrhea etc. Yucky stuff!

I do not agree with the statement that people make that supplements will all just get excreted out so they are safe. As I said, supplemental iron has been show to have drastically negative effects, and is actually stored in various tissues of the body and does damage. It is not efficiently excreted. Similarly, Vitamin A and beta carotene taken in supplemental form blocks absorption of other carotenes from foods. It is this mix of carotenes that has the health promoting effects found in studies. Because the isolated supplemental beta carotene blocks absorption of other carotenes, it has been shown in studies to lower life expectancy (as I stated in the previous message). High dose vitamin e supplements have been shown to be detrimental to the heart. High doses of b-6 cause neurological damage. If the multivitamin isn't properly balanced (e.g. like the one you are taking is improperly balanced between vitamin d and calcium), then you can end up causing a deficiency in important vitamins (in this case vitamin d). It is all somewhat complicated, which is why I tend not to like synthetic supplements. I created mine from whole foods so that the natural absorption and excretion of nutrients is safe. And I balanced all the nutrients to the proper levels. Again, please don't think I am trying to sell you my supplement -- I'm not. I'm just using it as a comparison to show you what you should be looking for in other supplements. As I said, I can point you to another cheaper supplement which is synthetic, but at least is properly balanced and does not have unnecessary ingredients or unhealthy megadoses.

The DHA I recommend comes in liquid form, and has no taste. You can buy it from here if you have interest: http://drfuhrman.com/shop/supplements.aspx
He is the only person I know who stores it in the fridge, and that is how it must be stored to maintain full potency. I don't trust seaweed as a perfectly reliable source.

Hope this helps.

Best,
Josh

[sandra]

Thank you Josh, you have given me a lot to think about, and I will consider it all very carefully. Once again thank you for your time.

Sandra.

[j&k]

No problem! I hope it helps. Hopefully I haven't confused you more than I have helped you...

Best,

Josh

[Haniska]

Hi Josh,
when I say "should", I'm referring to the Vegan Food Pyramid, which recommends 6-11 servings of grains a day. Normally I have between 30-60g of a high fibre cereal with soymilk in the morning (1-2 servings I think). If I have pasta at midday I have trouble eating more than 50g, or if I have a legume or pulse based soup I probably won't have bread or any substitutes with it because it makes me feel too weighed down. My evening meal is more protein based (tofu or a chick pea or lentil curry, something similar) but again I have trouble eating grains along with that (combining to get complete proteins) - I just feel too full. As i mentioned before, my preoccupation with not eating enough carbs is because I feel very tired and am trying to examine various potential problems before going to my doc. It's interesting that you talk about green veggies - I know i don't eat enough of them but there never seems to be a great selection here and I never know how to cook them. Any advice? Thanks so much.

I like to get complete proteins in my meals, I know the standard idea is that you are cool so long as you get them in 24hrs, but I like to make sure I don't eat bread all day. Hehe.
Speaking of which, we "need" grains as part of this protein combination because beans are low in Methionine+Cystine.
Nutritional Data for 1 SL BREAD; CRACKED-WHEAT
Methionine+Cystine Gms : 0.084 8.2%[m] 10.3%[f]
http://www.fatfree.com/usda/usda-l0....0CRACKED-WHEAT
However, nuts are also high in the amino acids but high in fat . Lol.
Nutritional Data for 1 OZ(24 WHL KERNELS) NUTS; ALMONDS, DRIED, UNBLANCHED
Methionine+Cystine Gms : 0.166 16.1%[m] 20.3%[f]
http://www.fatfree.com/usda/usda-l1....,%20UNBLANCHED

Hope this puts your mind at ease and encourages you to eat nutrient dense nuts and seeds!

[Vagetarian]

Ok josh, since you appear to qualify as a supplement expert, do you recommend a time of day for taking DHA? Are there some foods that may decrease or increase the absorption when taken together? How much is sufficient on a daily basis? Do you ever do a detox day or week when it comes to supplements? If so, why? Shouldn't pill form of DHA be just as good as the refrigerated liquid form you recommend? The liquid in the pills aren't exposed to light or oxygen, so I wouldn't think they would turn rancid. And finally, would you recommend higher dosage to someone with hereditary high cholesterol such as myself? Ok, thanks for your help. You can send me the bill for your time. Sandra, I think you owe Josh a few bucks too.

[j&k]

Vagetarian - Thanks for the compliment.

Although I am particular about which supplements to take, I become much less particular with the timing and other things because I think that the science does not bear out much in these departments.

OK, to your specific questions.

(1) No, I don't care what time of day you take the DHA supplement. I take it in the morning in my smoothie because it is convenient, but take it anytime you prefer.

(2) There are no food interactions that I am aware of in particular. But, I would avoid excess omega 6 fats in general because they are not health promoting. You should always focus more on Omega 3's. Omega 6's block conversion of Omega 3's into DHA.

(3) I recommend between 175mg to 200mg of preformed DHA a day.

(4) I'm not sure what you mean by a detox day. Maybe you mean taking a day off so that your body does not get used to the supplements. That is fine, but I'm not overly concerned about that element. IT is not something I generally recommend. These are safe to take in everyday.

(5) Pill form of DHA is not as good. DHA is very unstable at room temperature. It should be stored in the refrigerator or freezer for extended periods of time. Many people report when they take the vegan DHA pills they burp up a bad flavor the rest of the day. That is because the DHA has gone rancid. If you buy where I suggested, it won't be rancid.

(6) Regarding your cholesterol -- what is your cholesterol? How old are you? Cholesterol levels should generally be able to be reduced sufficiently with diet alone even with the genetic tendency, although if you are having trouble with that, then yes you can take more DHA a day. But, I'd also recommend some other things to lower your cholesterol naturally.

And, no bill, it's my pleasure to help out I don't have the same patience to help out people who are not vegans, but since we are all doing our best to live the right way, I am very happy to offer my help. There is so much misinformation out there, it is hard to know what is real and what isn't, unless you have really devoted years and years studying and learning this stuff. So, if one of us can help out another, that's what it is all about, right?

Best,
Josh

[treehugga]

I have concerns about over supplimentation, not so much with the DHA, but vitamions and minerals.

Too much can also be bad for your health.

Some vitamins hinder the effectiveness of others.

Too much iodine supplimentation is also bad for your thyroid, especially if it is already working well.

If your concerned you may be lacking in something go and get tested to take the guess work out.

I tend to use suppliments medicinally ie if I have a virus or know I haven't been eating optimally. I'd rather try to eat healthy and my body always feels and looks much better when I do this.

[sandra]

Yes, I think I'll see my doctor first and try and get some tests done and then I'll have a much better idea of what I need to do.

[sandra]

Yes, Vagetarian, Josh has been very helpful and generous with his time, hasn't he? He hasn't mentioned wanting paid though, so I think I've got away with it!

[treehugga]

Here are some sites re DHA and Hemp seed ooil you may find interesting.

www.innvista.com/HEALTH/foods/hemp/hempoil.htm

www.intensivenutrition.com/hempoil.htm

www.innvista.com/HEALTH/nutrition/fats/fishoils/reason5.htm

[sandra]

Thanks for you help

[sandra]

Hi Sandra

That sounds more like blood sugar imbalances or iron rather than DHA.

What's a typical days' menu for you?

Hi Don,
All this DHA, iodine, etc thingy is a bit overwhelming at times. I did have my blood sugar level checked about a month ago, and it was normal, although a bit on the low side, but she said that was because I had been fasting. I think I'll go to the doctor anyway and just have my iron level etc checked just to be sure.
I think my apathy at times is because I just get a bit fed up with things, but your Pirate thread certainly cheered me up, as you can see I've got into it in a big way, I'm starting to get a bit worried!

[j&k]

Treehugga -- I agree with you in general about not wanting to take too many vitamins and minerals, and that certain ones can affect absorption of others. That is why I prefer to use a whole food source of nutrients, so that those problems basically are not an issue. But, at least for me, it is inconvenient to bet blood tests for all nutrients, and many blood tests aren't reliable. I think blood tests for things like B-12, D, amino acid profile, and DHA levels are all good tests, though.

Also, I looked at the links you posted (www.innvista.com/HEALTH/foods/hemp/hempoil.htm

www.intensivenutrition.com/hempoil.htm

www.innvista.com/HEALTH/nutrition/fats/fishoils/reason5.htm

I think there is some good information in these, as well as some misinformation. For instance, when they discuss the conversion rates from ALA to DHA, they quote only the few studies (which are in the minority opinion) that support their side. That is a highly alarming way to present research. Further, I don't know if they are in the business of selling hemp seed oil, but their stance seems slighted that way. I always prefer an even hand when discussing these issues.

These links gloss over the fact that some people simply are unable to convert ALA to DHA. This is a major problem for some people. Some studies have pointed to smoking, diabetes or other unknown things (perhaps genetic problems) that may cause this limiation. It is irresponsible to make the claims they make from that point of view, because certain people simply need supplementation. Other's convert the ALA find and don't need the supplementation (although I still contend it doesn't hurt vegans to take it as a supplement anyway).

The interesting thing about hemp oil is that it is basically just as expensive as the DHA. The DHA is obviously superior in that it is preformed DHA, so nobody need be concerned about the conversion rate. Additionally, the hemp oil, like all oils, is a lot of calories for very little nutrition. So, I don't think of this as a health food. Plus, the hemp also has omega 6's which have been shown in studies to hinder conversion of ALA to DHA.

Just my thoughts. But, there is also a lot of good info those links as well. I just have trouble with some of the reporting done there.

Best,
Josh

[treehugga]

Funny I thought the same thing about the DHA studies

[j&k]

Really? What do you mean in particular?

[treehugga]

They seem to be pushing an agenda by also advertising products like most research.

All research has an agenda.

I look at heathy groups of people and try and mimic some of their dietry foods that I think may be relating to good health.

The Mediteranian diet is showing a 40% reduction in alzheimers and dementic compared to other cultures. This is believed to be due to the consumption of olive oil (Inexpensive and performing as well as other sources).

[Monday]

OK

I am soooo lost and confused. I was taking a multi vitamin and mineral supplement but some of your posts have scared me and I have stopped but I don't know what I should be taking if anything. My diet is OK but could be better. I am worried about the Omega thing but completely confused re DHA, EPA, ALA etc.

Can anyone help?

Thank you

Monday xx

[j&k]

Monday -- What is in your multivite -- or what is the name of your multivite -- I can look it up and see how it is. I don't mean to scare or alarm anyone, but we have been given misinformation that multivites are perfectly safe and harmless things to take. It is good to at least be informed about the possible consequences of taking in multivites.

Treehugga -- I'll respond to you when I have a bit more time -- hopefully in a few minutes.

Best,
Josh

[j&k]

Treehugga -- I think your concerns are clearly valid and important. It is always critical to consider the source of any study, since that will often determine the outcome of the study. You don't have to look further than global warming to know that various greenhouse gas producing industries fund studies to put into question the established science that human activity is increasing and likely causing the global warming phenomenon.

That being said, I think one of the links I put in an earlier message was very interesting. It was a paper put together by the Flax Counsel of Canada. Considering manufacturers of flax would have a vested interest in selling their product, and considering flax is generally considered to be one of the best sources of omega 3's in the vegetarian diet, one would expect them to cite science in favor of using flax rather than preformed dha (from fish or algae or whatever). Yet, they cite to two studies and conclude the conversion rate ranges of omega 3 to dha range from .2% to 8% (look at page 2 -- Efficiency of conversion of ALA).
http://www.flaxcouncil.ca/english/pd...abolism_R2.pdf

This source (which should be as unbiased as it gets), quotes far lower conversion rates than do the innvista and intensivenutrition links you posted. I have never seen conversion rates like those discussed before, and if even the flax council of canada disagrees, I think there is good reason to question the studies posted on those sites.

And again, a study like this one, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...975&query_hl=1

which shows vegan and vegetarians have lower levels of DHA than meat-eaters -- is just kind of what it is. The question may be does that matter for terms of health. And that may be one that is not sufficiently answered yet.

What we do know for sure is that DHA is critical to health in that it comprises much of the fatty tissue in the brain, it has been shown in studies to be important for heart health, lowering cholesterol, lowering inflammation levels in the body etc.

We also know studies have shown that in populations that already have sufficiently high blood levels of DHA, extra DHA does not offer much in the way of further protection from disease (namely, heart disease).

What is a bit less clear is how supplemental DHA affects those people who have lower levels of DHA in their blood (aka many vegans).

Here is one vegan nutritionists take on the situation:
http://www.vegfamily.com/brenda-davis/tip11.htm

Here is a vegan website's take on dha:
http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/dha

In the end, I'm not sure the studies are done adequately to fully answer this question. I am of the belief that higher DHA levels are optimal for vegans, and I think to be safe it is better to get the preformed DHA from liquid from algae. PArticularly since I don't think the options of taking flax or hemp oil are nutritious, and are basically just as expensive as the DHA supplement.

And, I do disagree wholeheartedly with the statement that olive oil is the reason for the success in the Mediterranean diet. Instead, I believe the mediterranean diet has been shown to be healthy IN SPITE OF the fact it is high in olive oil. Many years back, Mediterraneans ate large quantities of fruits, vegetables, legumes, and whole grains. They also stayed physically active. Accordingly, they were healthy. As Americans went to study this diet, they latched on to one food (which is what we always do) as the superfood that is to be credited with health. Unfortunately, though, as the Mediterraneans have decreased their intake of fruits, veggies, legumes, and whole grains (and physical fitness) and are replacing them with more animal foods and less physical activity, studies show their longevity is decreasing and they are having a higher percentage of western diseases (e.g. heart attacks, cancer etc). Yet, their olive oil intake has not decreased over this time. That has been the one constant.

So, from this information, I think it is safe to believe that because the Mediterranean diet used to be sufficiently healthy, they used to get away with an unhealthy food like olive oil. But now that they are living less healthy, the olive oil is not saving them from earlier death and disease.

Best,
Josh

[Haniska]

Hi Josh,

I had been considering reducing my grains for a long time and now have done so, thanks. I feel much healthier and I feel better about my food choices. It is harder to make unhealthy choices when you have almost eliminated grains. Also as with any food reduction, it is easier for me to see how my throat swells and produces mucous when I eat wheat.
One thing though, I am gaining weight, have you experienced this? I'm sure it would be an easy thing to fix by increasing my vegetable intake(decreasing seeds), I am just curious of your experience.

[sandra]

Hi again, Josh, I have just read your most recent post. In it you say vegans and vegetarians have lower levels of DHA than meat eaters. Then you said 'What we do know for sure is that DHA is critical to health, important for heart health, lowering cholesterol etc'. end of quote. If this is the case why then do quite a substantial amount of meat eaters suffer from heart disease and high cholesterol?
The high levels of DHA is obviously not protecting them, so maybe we don't need as high a level as is thought. It is generally the case that a vegan diet is by far the healthier, so maybe the levels of DHA that vegans have is the healthy level.

[j&k]

Haniska -- Good for you, and I'm glad that you are feeling better with less grains. First, are you at your ideal weight, or do you have weight to lose? Second, what are you replacing the grains with (is it seeds like you hinted at)? Obviously, it depends what you are replacing the grains with -- with my usual advice, people tend to lose a good deal of weight when they come off grains, but that is because they are replacing the grains with foods of higher nutrient density per calorie like veggies, fruits and legumes. If seeds and nuts are the replacement, than you are likely adding in more calories to your diet than you had with the grains. While the nuts and seeds are healthier choices in general, gaining weight is not healthier (unless you need to gain weight)

Sandra -- It does get confusing doesn't it? It is always important to remember that like anything, there is not one vitamin or nutrient that will solve all problems. Yes, DHA is good for the heart but there are many other factors that are far more important for the general person. For instance, intake of saturated fat and animal protein (and low levels of protective nutrients found in fruits and veggies) are far more important important risk factors for heart attack. As are body weight and body composition (e.g. fat levels in the body and where one stores fat (belly fat being the most dangerous)).

So, while the meat eaters have healthier levels of DHA which are likely protecting their heart to some degree, they have so many other factors that put them at high risk, you wouldn't expect the DHA to protect them very well. Instead, you would expect high levels of heart disease which is exactly what we do in fact see.

But in vegans, who likely have few other risk factors, but do have lower DHA levels, you can expect the addition of DHA to offer additional protection and health.

Does that make sense?

Best,
Josh

[sandra]

Yes, so I would think that because we are putting less strain generally on our bodies than meat eaters we can do with a lot less DHA than they have. To be honest I think our bodies have a body clock and when your times up it's up! I think the part our diet and lifestyle plays is small [unless your talking extremes, overweight or underweight].

[j&k]

Sandra -- That is certainly an argument that can be made (e.g. the argument that vegans put less strain so therefore need less dha). The verdict is out, but I tend not to agree completely with it. I believe, rightly or wrongly, that those with lower levels of DHA are at greater risk for various conditions (including but limited to depression, heart issues, alzheimer's, allergies). And women who are pregnant have greater risk of post-partum depression with low levels of DHA. Kids with low levels are at greater rish of ADHD, dyslexia and significantly reduced brain development. I don't think we should assume that because vegans are healthier in general, that every nutrient we are lower in is healthy to be lower in. For instance, it has been shown in many studies now that we have a tendency to be low in vitamin D, but it is healthier to have higher blood levels of Vitamin D (same is true for B-12).

And, there have also been many studies now showing that we can live far longer than people are currently, and with great vibrance and health. Our genetic issues never have to come to fruition if we eat very healthfully and and stay fit and skinny. I believe the average person should live well into their nineties (at least) and still be sharp, healthy and active. That is simply not happening today, except as the exception to the rule.

Best,
Josh

[sandra]

Very interesting Josh, but are these studies done on vegans or meat eaters?

[j&k]

Sorry, Sandra, the studies I was referring to were not properly described in that last post. When I said studies, I meant studies showing that genetic predispositions can be prevented from occuring by food choices (e.g. cruciferous veggies are fabulous at preventing cancer even if someone has a genetic predisposition towards breast cancer).

But, studies show vegans live anywhere from 3 to 6 years on up to 10 years longer than meat eaters. Here is one analysis of this:

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/78/3/526S

But, while I believe vegan diets tend to be more healthful than meat-eating diets, I also believe that people eating the healthiest form of vegan diet should be living far longer than the average vegan. Many vegans survive on almost no veggies or fruits or legumes, and instead eat refined foods and grains. So, I believe that when you take the subgroup of vegans who eat the healthiest, you would notice they live far longer and with less disease than the rest of the vegans. Of course, I have never seen a study directly on this point though. This is more from my observations.

Best,
Josh

[Haniska]

Hi again,

I tend to use seeds as a catch-all phrase for grains, legume, nuts and "seeds". That said, I have replaced my grains with all of these things and also root vegetables. I think now the the weight I gained is possibly from my hurting my back, but for arguments sake, I am 5 5 and 125 lbs (usually) and 129 since dropping the grains And hurting my back. I am too thin in my arms/hands, feet, chest and back, and too thick in my stomach, and, one would say I'm too thick in the hips and thighs. I'm what they call skinny fat. If I lose any weight I lose it from my hands, feet, chest and back. It's very odd.
Besides the weight I have a more pressing question. I suffer from cold sores. I had them under control until I started eating nuts. I think nuts are very healthy and I would like to eat a high level of them without breaking out. Do you know the appropiate ratio of nuts to beans?

[Monday]

Hi Josh

It's this one here:

http://www.healthspan.co.uk/shop/product.aspx?Id=MV-V

I really appreciate your help as I am feeling a bit lost.

Monday x

[j&k]

Monday -- I have serious reservations about the supplement you are/were taking. First, do you have low blood levels of iron. Because if you don't, you should NEVER be taking synthetic iron. It is very unhealthy and should only be taken when your blood levels show you should be taking it. Second, it has isolated beta carotene which has been shown to decrease absorption of other disease fighting carotenoids like lycopene, lutein etc.

In fact, here is an excerpt from Dr. Fuhrman's website (an MD and health authority):

"In Finnish trials, those using beta-carotene supplements failed to prevent lung cancer, and there was actually an increase in cancer in those who took the supplement. 2 This study was halted when the physician researchers discovered the death rate from lung cancer was 28 percent higher among participants who had taken the high amounts of beta-carotene and vitamin A. Furthermore, the death rate from heart disease was 17 percent higher in those who had taken the supplements compared to those just given a placebo. 3 Another recent study showed similar results, correlating beta-carotene supplementation with an increased occurrence of prostate cancer. As a result of these European studies, as well as similar studies conducted here in the United States, 4 articles in the Journal of the National Cancer Institute, 5 the Lancet, 6 and the New England Journal of Medicine all advise people to stop taking beta-carotene supplements."


On top of this, the other supplemental ingredients are cheap and in my opinion suboptimal (e.g. calcium carbonate, alpha tocopherol, magnesium oxide, zinc oxide etc.)

Plus, in many places in the ingredients it lists the synthetic form of vitamin E.


I have to say, this is a weak supplement overall. But, remember, I am picky -- so picky that I eventually decided to make my own supplement rather than continue to take the garbage that was out there.

But, in any supplement you take, you should avoid the things I pointed out above.


If you have more questions, please ask! I'd love to help!


Best,
Josh

[j&k]

Haniska -- It actually is not weird to me that you lose weight in the way you do. Most people lose belly fat last. The body will burn fat in its genetically predetermined way -- and with people who have belly fat -- it comes off last. It is healthiest obviously to not have the belly fat since it is the most biologically active fat (meaning it produces hormones, inflammatory agents etc. which contribute most to heart disease, metabolic syndrome, diabetes etc.)

Root veggies are certainly healthier than the grains. I would suggest replacing the grains with green veggies, fruits, legumes, some starchy veggies if you wish like the root veggies, and maybe a little nuts and seeds. That should get rid of the extra few pounds. If weight continues to be an issue, focus more on the raw and non-starchy veggies, legumes and fresh juicy fruits.

I don't know of any magical ratio between nuts and beans. My suggestion would be to cut the nuts out for now and replace those with seeds. Use sunflower, pumpkin, sesame (unhulled), pine nuts etc. These should all be raw. If you are eating roasted rather than raw nuts, that can cause a problem as well. I'm sure you know this, but many people with this condition swear by taking l-lysine away from foods.

Best,
Josh

[Monday]

Hi Josh

OK - I have stopped taking my multi vits. But don't know what to do now. Do you think I need a supplement and can you advise a good one if so. Unfortunatley my husband has just had a huge tax bill so we are having to budget very strictly so i can't spend much money at the moment. Do you think we'd be OK without supplements? What about the DHA thing, can you recommend a good supplement - I do suffer from depression so wonder if something like this might help.

Thank you

Monday x

[j&k]

No, as a vegan I think you should supplement.

My supplement is the best out there, but is not the cheapest. It is $40 for a month's supply. All information can be found here: http://www.organichealthandbeauty.co..._p_140-81.html

If you want a cheaper option, which certainly does not have all the same benefits or strengths, but is at least has no harmful ingredients and will be reasonably sufficient to get the job done, I would recommend Gentle Care ($29.95 for three month supply) from this link:
http://drfuhrman.com/shop/GCF.aspx

DHA should be bought from this link:
http://drfuhrman.com/shop/DHA.aspx
He is the only I know who stores everything properly.

Hope this is helpful.

Best,
Josh

[VeganJohn]

I have read plenty of articles about ground Flax being a brillant source of Omega 3/DHA. I have a tablespoon a day and feel great, I feel better since I've started taking Flax, I really do :>

[Monday]

Thanks Josh, I live in the UK so I don't if there is anything available in the UK as I would imagine shipping costs to the UK would be pretty bad.

Thanks

Monday x

[j&k]

Monday -- Well, at least when you look now within the UK, look for supplements that do not have iron, preformed vitamin A or isolated beta-carotene. Make sure they do have b-12 and probably 400 to 800 iu's of d. If you find something, you can always send me a link and I can give you my thoughts on it as well.

Best,
Josh

[Monday]

Thanks, I will have a look.

I appreciate your help.

Monday x

[feral]

Monday I've just started using this suppliment from the Vegan Society http://www.vegansociety.com/catalog/...roducts_id=239 Josh can prob tell you better than me if it's good, it's very reasonable so I hope it is good.
I'm also on the look out for a good quality DHA as I have ME/CFS and definately need the brain power, the one I use atm is ok and I do notice a difference but I'd like to find out where I could get a really good quality one to see if it helps.

[j&k]

Hi Feral. It seems ok as far as it goes. I can't see what forms of each vitamin and mineral they are using, so I can't attest to the quality. I'd like to see a broader range of nutrients, including other b vitamins, zinc, calcium, magnesium, etc. But, from the looks of it, at least it does not have any of the harmful ingredients in it.

Best,
Josh

[Haniska]

Hi Josh,
It's not so much that the belly fat's stubbornness is bothersome, it's that I get Painfully thin everywhere else so that eventually I stop dieting.
My main "nut" intake since letting go of grains has actually been sunflower seeds. My concern is that if I cut back on nuts/seeds I would lose my balanced protein source of methionine and cysteine. I know that legumes contain these amino acids as well but.. Is there a problem with getting too many amino acids of a certain type? I wondered this before. I wanted to cut out grains(wasn't clear that nuts had the same amino's at the time). but I was concerned of losing out on these amino's or overdosing on others if I just ate beans). I think I know what you mean about the l-lysine, but I would like to clarify. Do you mean I should increase my lysine intake?
Back on topic> Check this out:
A study on elderly Japanese patients demonstrated that blood levels of the omega-3 fatty acids EPA and DHA increase after prolonged consumption of ALA from a plant-based oil. The change is slow and requires about 10 months of supplementation. However, the result of the study suggests that supplementation with ALA from flax oil may to some degree have the same beneficial role as supplementation with fish oil. This news may be particularly interesting to people following a vegetarian diet or for those who do not eat fish products. [Journal of Nutrition Science Viturminol, December 1999]
http://www.diagnose-me.com/treat/T408829.html

[j&k]

Haniska -- Perhaps putting a little muscle on your frame would help with skinny all over component. I don't know if you are muscular or not, but that tends to help overcome being overly skinny.

So you are saying the sunflower seeds caused you to break out in cold sores? That would be interesting. I have usually heard nuts can be triggers, but seeds are fairly safe. Let me know the answer to this one.

When I say l-lysine, I mean going to buy it in supplemental form. MAny people notice fabulous results with this. Take it up to four times a day when you have outbreaks, and once or twice a day otherwise. Best to take it two hours before or after food I think. You can also use an lysine cream on the cold sore itself.

I am not overly concerned with overdosing on certain aminos versus others. If you are getting a balanced diet, you will be getting all the protein you need. If nuts AND seeds are bothering you, use avocados for now.

With regard to the study you point to, I'm sure it is accurate. I am not saying Flax oil or the like doesn't help to raise DHA levels -- for most people it does. I am saying: (1) not everyone can convert ALA to DHA; (2) Most vegans have lower DHA levels than meat-eaters, even if they do supplement with flax oil or the like; and (3) Flax oil is not a nutrient dense food. For those reasons, why not just supplement with the vegan DHA?

Best,
Josh

[Haniska]

Josh,

I have been working on the muscle but it can be hard as I have a suspected connective tissue disorder.
The problem with nuts And seeds is that they contain high levels of arginine(chocolate and peanuts are the worst), l-lysine counteracts this. There is no reason for me to think you would know about this, I just thought perchance you did. I do take lysine when I break out but as I said I hadn't been having any problems recently. Knowing this myself, I am hoping the main component behind protein combining is that you can't just eat bread or seeds, you have to eat beans to get lysine. I don't know if there are any problematic amino's in beans so I am going to give it a shot. Also, I figure it may be beneficial as I would not be getting a lot of omega 6 fatty acids canceling out my omega 3's. AND, hehe, it is kind of exciting to go back to my fat-free roots. Oh, and I ordered some vegan dha last night.
Wish me luck and I'll keep you posted.

Haniska



p.s. I don't know if it is because I have been out of work (ie. away from the sun and various chemicals) but since dropping grains my eczema has disappeared!

[j&k]

Haniska -- Please keep me updated. I'm curious how it goes. I'm glad about the eczema too!

Best,
Josh

[Vagetarian]

Josh or anyone,
What's your take on being an inconsistent eater? I tend to eat inconsistently-not getting the same types of foods in me every week, Sometimes I'll eat nuts every day for a month, then go a couple weeks without them. Sometimes I eat broccoli or carrots 4 times a week, then sometimes not at all for a few weeks. When you read studies and nutritional books, they all recommend getting all the necessary nutrients an a daily or weekly basis. I find that goes a little bit against mother nature since most foods grow in different seasons. Do you think this is for "optimal" health or does it really matter? I even take my supplements inconsistently. I'll double up some days and skip on others.

[Haniska]

I'm the same way with food, and sometimes the thought of taking a supplement makes me nauseous, so I skip it. I figure that I am storing up minerals and fat soluble vitamins, not so sure about the water soluble ones though