Omega-3: Vegan DHA / EPA

[j&k]

Vagetarian -- It's a good question you pose. It certainly would seem that eating locally grown produce in season is the best way to go from a naturalistic point of view. And, to a large extent, I agree with this philosophy. But, it is important to get a varied diet almost every day. This would include some veggies, fruits, legumes, nut/seeds/avocado everyday. Now, it is healthy to vary the foods within those groups each day so as to get a wide variety, but it is still best to get something within each group everyday (or at least every other day). The only reason to eat not locally grown foods is to vary the diet, and get even more nutrient dense foods (e.g. pomagranate, blueberries, raspberries, kale or whatever else you may not be able to get locally).

So I like eating locally grown foods while adding in other very healthy foods grown elsewhere if they are not grown locally. And, it is important to eat the whole variety of foods (although within the veggie category it doesn't have to be brocolli or carrots more than once every few weeks if you are also eating other veggies like kale, collards, rapini, spinach, chard, romaine, mache, purslane, zucchini etc.) every day if possible.

Best,
Josh

[Korn]

The answer is a vegan diet (wth high quantities of veggies, fruits, legumes, nuts and seeds) supplemented with B-12 and DHA is the healthiest.

You keep posting links to Dr. Fuhrmans online shop, j&k, and dr. Fuhrman says that...:

...many vegetarians may not have ideal levels of all essential fatty acids. Fish supply two non-essential fatty acids (EPA and DHA) that have been shown to have beneficial effects, offering protection against both heart disease and aging of the brain. To assure that vegetarians get sufficient levels of these omega-3 fats, people on vegetarian diets need to consume foods such as flax seeds, hemp seeds, and walnuts on a regular basis. The body can then manufacture the longer chain fats typically found in fish.

Some individuals may still not have optimal levels of long chain omega-3 fats, even with the consumption of a well designed vegetarian diet utilizing these seeds and nuts, therefore I recommend vegetarians and those not eating fish regularly consume a DHA supplement.

[My emphasis]


"To assure that vegetarians get sufficient levels of these omega-3 fats, people on vegetarian diets need to consume foods such as flax seeds, hemp seeds, and walnuts on a regular basis" makes sense, but since he also thinks this makes sense, and also writes that "Some individuals may still not have optimal levels of long chain omega-3 fats", isn't the interesting part to find out why some vegans have optimal DHA levels without taking supplements, while others have?

[fiamma]

... isn't the interesting part to find out why some vegans have optimal DHA levels without taking supplements, while others have?

I read that the young, the elderly and those with neurological disorders are at risk of poor conversion. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

[Korn]

Thanks. Where did you read this, and what was the explanation for that?

[fiamma]

It's in the book "Becoming Vegan" by Vesanto Melina and Brenda Davies. They say that infants (not the young, my mistake), the elderly, those with diabetes and those with neurological disorders are at risk of poor conversion. No explanation is given though, sadly. I'm curious though; suffering from epilepsy, I fall into the latter category. I asked my doctor (a nutritionist) but didn't give me an answer.

[Korn]

There's some information about how to deal with poor conversion at Food for Life's site:

Include good sources of the nutrients which aid essential fat conversion – zinc, magnesium, calcium, biotin and vitamins B6, B3 and C.

Avoid things which inhibit conversion; alcohol, saturated and trans fats (from animal foods and processed foods), smoking, caffeine, viral infections, stress and excess intake of vitamin A and copper.

Balance your intake of omega 3 and 6 fatty acids. Due to the widespread use of sunflower oil in food manufacturing we tend to have a much greater intake of omega 6 to 3 fats in our diets. This imbalance can lead to the conversion enzymes getting used up for omega 6, restricting omega 3 conversion. The ideal balance is around 3 to 4 parts omega 6 to one of 3.

[...]

Some people may have less of the conversion enzymes and may need to be strict with the above nutrient supporters and inhibitors. These people include those with atopic allergies (asthma, eczema and hay fever which run in the family) and those with diabetics.

More here:
Plant based sources of vegan & vegetarian DHA / EPA & Essential Fats

Udo Erasmos (yes, the Udo's Choice-Udo) writes about conversion at his own site, here.


Some other vegan DHA products:
Omega-Zen-3 by NuTru
Neurogen DHA by Genestra
Vegan-Vegetarian Omega-3 DHA by Deva

[sandra]

This thread about DHA has got me really worried! I don't eat much at the best of times [never have] so having to make sure I get all these different nutrients is like a nightmare for me. Plus my mother suffered from Pernicious anaemia and had to have injections of vit B12, so I'm worried incase it can be inheirited. I was at the doctor on Monday and had blood taken to be tested for B12, iron and kidney function, so I'm really worried now waiting for the results. I have been taking Vertese omega 3+6+9 oils in capsule form so I hope this will help. I feel really well since I've been vegan, my stomach problems and migraines have all vanished, it's just I have been having cramps in my feet and legs and that's why I visited the doctor. Does anyone know if they could have anything to do with DHA levels?

[Korn]

If it helps, Sandra, there are hundreds of millions of meat eaters, vegans, and lacto-vegetarians who never eat fish, fish oil or other DHA/EPA supplements, so instead of worrying, why not take an essential fatty acid test first, and worry, if necessary, afterwards?

[sandra]

I don't know if I'm being tested for essential fatty acid, he said he's doing a full blood picture, do you think it would be included in that? I know I should have asked when I was there but my head was still reeling from the fact that he said I should eat 'red meat'!

[j&k]

Korn -- The truth about DHA levels in vegans is that the scientists really are unsure why certain people have a tougher time than others converting it. Fiamma mentioned some of the theories out there.

Another important theory that makes goods sense is that because we evolved eating high quantities of preformed DHA, our bodies have become ill-equipped to convert ALA to DHA efficiently. Of course, some people are better than others, and some are completely unable to convert.

The following article explains the theory:

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/134/1/183

Further, I do not think people should be focusing on balancing omega 3's and omega 6's. Instead, they should solely focus on getting omega 3's. People eat enough omega 6's no matter what, and by focusing on a balance, people may actually seek out omega 6's, which is problematic.

Sandra -- Don't worry so much. If your B-12 levels are low, dietary supplementation will bring your levels up very quickly. And, no, general blood work will not tell you about essential fatty acid composition. Foot and leg cramps would not be caused by DHA defiency most likely. But, Vitamin D deficiency could cause that (one possiblity at least). OThers claim magnesium and/or calcium deficiency can cause this.

Best,
Josh

[sandra]

Thanks J&K, I will be getting the results back on Friday so hopefully after that I will have a clearer picture of what I need to do

[Poppy]

Thanks J&K, I will be getting the results back on Friday so hopefully after that I will have a clearer picture of what I need to do

Hiya Sandra. Goodluck with the test results. I had a full blood test about four weeks ago because of a frozen shoulder and when the results came back my doctor said they couldn't be any better and believe me Sandra I am eating dreadfully at the moment. For instance today I've had 3 slices of fruit loaf, a packet of plain crisps and some sandwich pickle to dip them in. Sounds like some weird craving but nothing seems to tempt me at the moment. Maybe if I carried on like this any future blood tests may not be as good I am doing by best though....
So just to say don't worry I know you'll be fine x

[Michael Benis]

Hi Sandra,

I'd really quit worrying. You're probably doing fine and getting your bloods done was a good idea. It will most likely reassure you.

Although most of the information in this thread is good, you really don't need a degree in biochemistry, a bag full of supplements, complex analyses and heaven knows what else to live healthily as a vegan.

As for DHA, though some studies have found vegans to have lower levels of DHA, no adverse effects of this were noted. For all we know the medical profession will in a few years time be telling us the vegan levels were fine and the omni levels elevated.

If you're really worrird, the cheap Vegan Society supplement is just fine - the synthetic ingredients in it have been proven to do the job - and if you're worried about DHA, add a supplement for that too, especially if your results come back showing low levels. But quit worrying, it's bad for your health

Cheers

Mike

[sandra]

Thanks Poppy, that was good news about your blood tests. I'm like you, sometimes I just don't feel like eating. I never did eat a great deal so now with trying to get all the different nutrients etc I'm sort of thinking I'm going to be spending all day eating! x

[sandra]

Thanks to you too Mike, I don't usually worry about my health [although you wouldn't think it by all my posts lately] but I just want to do everything right. I'm a bit of a perfectionist I'm afraid. You've helped me see that I am probably worrying over nothing, and I would be better waiting until I get the results anyway before I do anything else.
Sandra

[treehugga]

Usually a full blood test that includes things like cholestoral can give you a good fat reading. I was told I had excellent levels of good fats.

I have also heard that the elderly, infants and those with certain illnesses can be at risk of low DHA conversion even from fish. It's just how it goes.

Eat a varied diet, stop worrying and enjoy life.

Your more likely to get anxiety disorders from all the stress of it all otherwise!

[Jesse]

Does anyone know if it is possible to order vegan DHA from Norway or Sweden?

[Michael Benis]

Yes. One of the original companies is in Switerland and will mail worldwide.

Their site is at: http://www.water4.net

Cheers

Mike

[Jesse]

Ok, thanks

[Haniska]

Hi Josh,

Here is my update. Since my last post and until last Saturday I avoided grains and nuts and focused on legumes and vegetables. Reasons being, nuts (which contain arginine) were giving me cold sores and I wanted to experiment with severely reduced grains. Namely because I felt I was getting too much carbohydrates and empty calories in my diet. Also, as grains contain arginine as well I thought perhaps they caused my body to be in a perpetual fight with the cold sore virus and thus perhaps making me tired. Also, I felt that reducing grains and increasing beans to make up for the methionine and cystine would make for a higher protein diet and perhaps help to put muscle on me.
These are my finding from this short experiment:
Initially the first few days I felt better, as I have posted. My vegetable intake increased and I was not eating processed foods. Eating wheat (which I may have an allergy to) caused adverse reactions. However, since making that post I began to feel unbalanced. That is not a satisfactory description, even to myself, so I continued. I am not sure that the following is related but I began to feel pain in my joints. This pain did not go away so I stopped lifting weights and exercising as usual. My knees felt hot and inflamed so I thought I would give them a rest. Similarly my elbows felt painfully. I had been reading up on Marfan syndrome(a connective tissue disorder which caused loose joints and various other symptoms) and was becoming concerned(I have several soft signs) and my mother had been urging me to have my heart tested (she has CHF) so I went to the doctor. Like I said he diagnosed me with several soft signs and I am waiting to take tests for the hard signs. When I got home I looked into Marfan a little more, on sites such as www.ctds.com This site and some others about arthritis (which is a somewhat similar disorder) suggested that deficiencies of copper and cystine were to blame for these symptoms. I looked these nutrients up and found that copper is found to rich in lentils, grains, seeds and mushrooms, and that cystine, in the vegan diet, in mainly found in nuts, seeds and grains(also lentils). After I reintroduced grains into my diet my pain has decreased significantly and I now feel "balanced". I'm not knocking your diet for sure. It sounds like it would work for many people. Perhaps a diet that included lots of lentils would be sufficient cystine for me but that is for another day. I am trying to include an ounce of nuts in my diet but I find this to be very constipating TMI I'm sure. As far as putting more muscle on, my research on Marfan's showed that people with Marfan's don't have much muscle mass and also are not encouraged to lift weights as their ligaments are stretchy and do not snap back, also increased heart rate is not recommended. I will keep you posted on the final diagnosis and any further experiments if you are interested.

Best
Haniska

[Haniska]

p.s. My eczema has returned I am cutting out wheat but it is hard.

[Poppy]

Thanks J&K, I will be getting the results back on Friday so hopefully after that I will have a clearer picture of what I need to do

Hiya Sandra
Hope all was ok with your results x

[j&k]

Haniska:

Goodness, gracious! I am so sorry to hear of all you have been through in the past few weeks. I certainly don't wish to diagnose anything, as I am not a doctor, and I will look very forward to hearing your test results (I hope they are positive).

That being said, I would find it hard to believe that any nutritional deficiencies developed so quickly, so I would venture to guess that it would not be that the replacement of these foods caused instant nutrient deficiencies.

Many who go on a more nutrient dense diet feel detox symptoms, which can be anywhere from modest to severe, usually for a span of one week up to a month or perhaps more (although this is rare). IT is possible what you felt was that, but it is also very possible it wasn't.

I just hope all your tests come back well!

Best,
Josh

[Haniska]

I would like to agree with you there. Instant nutrient deficiencies seem ridiculous. It would be as if I got a cold after a week of being vegan and my grandmother blamed my diet! However, if my copper was already borderline low, or if I had an icreased need for copper would it be different? I'm not sure on that one, but in the case of the cystine it would make sense. I mean, we need to replace proteins every 4-5 hrs, so why wouldn't my connective tissues deteriorate if they were lacking the specific amino acid which repairs them? Especially since I was walking every day and breaking them down. Obviously I am not a doctor either. I did feel some detox symptoms (or rather smelled them!) when I first started which I took as a great sign. I have never felt detox symptoms like this [joint pain] before, but I will leave open the possibility.
Thanks for all of your good wishes!
Haniska

[sandra]

Hiya Sandra
Hope all was ok with your results x

Thanks Poppy, Well I rang for the results yesterday expecting to hear they were normal but was told the doctor wanted to see me. The nearest appointment I could get was Tuesday 8th, so I'm going to have a long wait. The nurse said to me 'don't be worrying', well as soon as she said that I was worried!

[treehugga]

Haniska try soaking nuts overnight or for several hours. This makes them more digestable.

I get eczema mainly when I eat nightshade veg such as tomatoes, potatoes, eggplant, zucchini, capsicum. Also anything scented like soap, washing powder etc will flare it up.

[Poppy]

Thanks Poppy, Well I rang for the results yesterday expecting to hear they were normal but was told the doctor wanted to see me. The nearest appointment I could get was Tuesday 8th, so I'm going to have a long wait. The nurse said to me 'don't be worrying', well as soon as she said that I was worried!

Hiya Sandra...
I'd be the same as you. There's a saying "Worry is like a rocking chair, it gives you something to do but it doesn't get you anywhere"
Try and have a good week-end x

[sandra]

Thanks Poppy, I will. Sorry I can't help with the vegan wine kit, hope you can find one soon. x

[j&k]

Haniska:

Anything is possible, in terms of the cystine. But, your body should generally be producing cystine on its own (it's a conditionally essential amino acid) from methionine. Brocolli and brussel sprouts are both listed as good sources, as are red peppers and oats (porridge or oatmeal is the best grain food in my opinion, and can be eaten somewhat regularly).

In terms of detox symptoms (again, I'm not saying this is what you had, but just to inform you), people who nutritionally rid themselves of arthritis will tend to have horrible flare ups first, before it finally leaves the system. Now it is possible that is what was going on with you, but it is possible it was other things as well.

If you are concerned about cystine levels, one sure way to find out is to go to your doctor and have him/her run an amino acid profile on you. Takes the guess work out of it.

For copper, you can either be taking a multivitamin, or eat prunes, lima beans, potatoes, sweet potatoes, mushrooms etc. I still think this unlikely as an immediate deficiency, but anything is possible.

I continue to wish you the best, and I'd love to be kept in the loop with how you are doing.

Sandra -- Please don't worry. I'm sure it is nothing major that can't be fixed quickly with appropriate changes. I'm thinking of you and wishing you the best also

BEst,
Josh

[Poppy]

Thanks Poppy, I will. Sorry I can't help with the vegan wine kit, hope you can find one soon. x

Thanks Sandra...all sorted now. You just take it easy this weekend. x

[Haniska]

I'm aware about the methionine but thanks. I know that some foods have "some" methionine and cystine but not in amounts that would be 100% at the end of the day, unless I was a raw foodist. I'm going Friday to have an echo done. Thanks for the tips treehugga, I have been thinking about the nightshades myself.

[treehugga]

I'm aware about the methionine but thanks. I know that some foods have "some" methionine and cystine but not in amounts that would be 100% at the end of the day, unless I was a raw foodist. I'm going Friday to have an echo done. Thanks for the tips treehugga, I have been thinking about the nightshades myself.

No worries. I also struggle with wheat, but find spelt and kamut are fine. Hope you sought things out.

[Pascale]

I was just talking with my dad, who seems to be rather interested in nutrition, is a doctor, and has read a lot of medical literature, and he says that he only takes fish oil supplements once or twice a week. He does this because from what he had read, apparently you only need to get one to two servings of fish a week to get enough DHA. Since the DHA in fish oil pills equals the DHA in one serving of fish, he doesn't think he needs to take fish oil pills daily. I take a liquid DHA supplement derived from algae, and wasn't sure how this information would translate into the algae supplements. I would like to take the DHA supplement as little as possible, yet enough to be healthy, because it is expensive. Does this mean that I should only take my DHA supplement 2-3 times a week rather than every day?

[eve]

One daily dessertspoon of flaxseed oil provides the nutriment, and without mercury!

[Wildflower]

Hi Pascale,

I have never heard that you don't need to take it every day, but it may have the same effect with just a few times a week. people often try to over do vitamins, and there are some i only take every other day, just because i know i get the nutrients from food mostly.

I am also in the US - can you share which brand you take? I have been looking for one of the algae DHA supplements.

[Pascale]

I use Dr. Fuhrman DHA purity: http://www.drfuhrman.com/shop/DHA.aspx
I use this because I have a lot of difficulty swallowing pills. It's expensive, which is why I want it to last as long as possible. If I could swallow pills, I would probably take this supplement: http://www.veganessentials.com/catal...t-by-nutru.htm

[Vagetarian]

SILK is now selling a DHA fortified soy milk. Don't worry, it's algea based DHA. Finally!!! If you drink Soy Milk and do not take a DHA supplement, this would be a good way to go to make sure you're getting your DHA. I don't want to turn this thread into a health debate as to wether or not we actually need supplemented DHA. But those in the camp that think we do will be happy to see it in Silk. The only problem is, they don't list the actual amount in each serving. If anyone knows, let me know.

[soyqueen01]

Thanks Poppy, Well I rang for the results yesterday expecting to hear they were normal but was told the doctor wanted to see me. The nearest appointment I could get was Tuesday 8th, so I'm going to have a long wait. The nurse said to me 'don't be worrying', well as soon as she said that I was worried!

so what happened? I was following this thread (about a year later, but that's how the internet works) - and then I found I couldn't get past page 9... I'm in suspense - what happened with Sandra's results?

[sandra]

Hi Soyqueen01...............to be honest I can't really remember why the doctor wanted to see me about the results. I think he just wanted to re-do one of the tests as the results weren't clear. I do know though, that after they were re-done, everything came back normal........thank goodness!
Thank you for asking. xx

[CapeMayRowat]

Hi everyone,

Does anyone know about the (relatively) new DHA supplement v-pure, a pill supplement from algae. Supposedly its advantage over all competitors is that it contains both DHA and EPA (from what I understand a "parent" building block for DHA. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks.

[Michael Benis]

EPA converts quite readily to DHA, but the reverse is less efficient, so there is some science behind the claims. It's no more expensive than - for example - Deva's DHA supplement (also vegan and made from algae) and they occasionally do a 3 for the price of 2 offer. I've been taking it quite regularly for a over a year. Can't say I've noticed any difference in my health, but they're a perfectly decent company to deal with.

Cheers

Mike

[harpy]

I take it, irregularly though

I think the argument for this over the DHA-only ones was that some bodies are better at converting the various substances than others, and that it's difficult to know whether you are good or bad at it so this is like an insurance policy. I also think I read the criticism that the amounts included in V-pure are quite low, but it might be better than nothing even so.

You can find more detail earlier in the thread, I think.

[Ecojosh]

The question I have is for a detailed response as to the value of EPA.

I use a vegan DHA supplement now which costs much less then Vpure. I am considering switching to Vpure but need to know if it's truly going to have any benefit compared to DHA alone

Thanks!

[Fuhzy]

I know this is old but I wanted to post the info in case somebody happens to search here for it.

To answer the question,

"Silk Plus Omega-3 DHA contains 370 mg of ALA and 32 mg of DHA per serving."

[Fuhzy]

The question I have is for a detailed response as to the value of EPA.

I use a vegan DHA supplement now which costs much less then Vpure. I am considering switching to Vpure but need to know if it's truly going to have any benefit compared to DHA alone

Thanks!

I would also like some info.

[AndyB]

I would also like some info.

+1

If budget were no issue, it would be v-pure, but I'm hesitant to spend that much unless the 'insurance policy', so to speak, would be superior.

[veganwitch]

Wow, there's a lot of info to wade through here.

Since this thread has been inactive for awhile I'm wondering if anyone has new thoughts on DHA?

I just started to consider taking it (today actually) and am overwhelmed by the choices.

I sporadically take flax oil, but I can't seem to stomach the taste anymore.

So right now am considering Deva omega 3 DHA softgels, OmegaZen3 by NuTru, and Vpure vegan EPA DHA omega 3. I saw all of those on Pangea's website.

[whalespace]

I have been taking v pure EPA-DHA for about two years I think. Expense wise, I know that I would spend more time buying and\or squeezing seaweed [ or grinding sones if that was the only way] than I spend on this stuff.
I take more than the 'capsules per day' recommended on the tub because an 'expert' gave me some numbers [which I haven't checked myself]. The placebo effect is pleasant even if I gain no other benefit.

[ALexiconofLove]

I'm thinking about buying/taking the v pure epa-dha supplement. I'm a bit confused though. If you take this supplement, do you still have to worry about how much omega-6 you're taking, or does it not matter? Is omega-6 what prevents you from converting ALA to EPA and DHA, or does it prevent your body from using any omega-3 (ALA, EPA, DHA). I apologize if this question makes no sense. I'm just trying to figure out what I should or shouldn't eat.

Does anyone track their intake of omega-3 and omega-6? So many foods I love contain a high ratio of omega-6 to omega-3 (avocados and soy!). Even things that I've seen recommended as good sources of omega-3 (like avocados and walnuts) have way more omega-6 than omega-3. In fact, the only thing I've found that has significantly more omega-3 than omega-6 is flaxseed... and I feel like I can only eat so much flaxseed!

[whalespace]

I remember something about omega 6 inhibiting absorption of omega 3, and I did once write an essay about alpha linoleic and alpha linolenic acids for a happy snacking sister, but I cannot remember properly to be honest.
I don't remember anything about omega 6 preventing production of DHA nor EPA.
As with other antagonistic nutrient absorbtion combinations, I guess that a handfull of one food type is only in the crucial part of your digestive system for x amount of time. When you are finished absorbing your first essential substance, then you can put in your second.
Obviously things could get a bit more complicated than that, but it is better than a jigsaw puzzle... actually that could make an interesting four dimensional kid's game.

I reckon the gut can be pretty quick if you don't stuff it full all at once.

Flax is a tough and slippery protecting beauty, with just a bug's worth of poison for the tail.