How do you view vegetarians?

[Back-Space]

So I had joined another forum(no plans on leaving veganforum) just to see what else is out there, and I'm having a bit of a problem holding my tongue with the vegetarians there I've got a few warnings already for stating my opinions which are viewed as "shaming vegetarians" or "discouraging others from posting". Someone else had posted something that I love, and I think is the reason I still have some pent up hostility towards vegetarians.

"Wanting" has no bearing on this. I am by definition excluded from the set of human beings who view animals as vending machines simply because I refuse to view them in that light. To me lacto-ovo vegetarians are closer to meat eaters when they hold the view that animals are here for humans to use, humanely or not. There is simply no ideological overlap between people who think it is ok to exploit non-humans and people who don't. LO vegetarians and meat eaters are only different in the degree to which they find animal exploitation acceptable. I find animal exploitation unacceptable.

Don't get me wrong. I'd prefer they be vegetarians than omnivores, but why stop there? But how does everyone else view vegetarianism?

[Greyowl55]

I have to admit that I would have a problem with anybody who tried to impose their opinions on me, be they vegetarians, other religions, politics, etc. Educated and sensible discussion - yes. But bullying and bigotry - no. Many people like to wear their opinions on their sleeves, as if it was a badge of honour that everybody else should be bowing to. That's up to them - that's their style.

My view of vegetarians - no problems at all. I used to be one. I don't need to look down my nose at them because they don't subscribe to my values. But I certainly don't need them to be telling me what I should be thinking or doing!

[cobweb]

I view vegetarians as enlightened people who aren't quite 'there' yet lol

[Ms_Derious]

I was one for 15 years, and I really did think I was 'making a difference'. I think we are all bombarded with the idea that milk and eggs come from happy little animals who have a good time of it so its hard to see the exploitation until your mind shifts into that plane. Personally, I get very irritated when they start talking in a way that shows they feel they are morally superior to meat eaters, but that's mainly because I see that they do want to make a difference, but aren't realising the extent of things.

I tend to treat vegetarians in the same way I treat meat eaters, if it seems like a good idea at the time I'll discuss my reasons for being vegan, but if they are obviously not interested I'll leave them to it. I do think there is a good argument for micro-activism and discussing veganism as part of your day to day life, but sometimes its not a helpful activity.

[Lars]

I view vegetarians as enlightened people who aren't quite 'there' yet lol

such a good way of putting it! when I first became vegan i viewed the people in my life who are vegetarian with a slight tinge of disrespect. I've been trying to fight the passionate hate that seems to come with having your eyes opened to the horrors of the food industry but recently i joined an Australian animal welfare based forum for Vegans, vegetarians as well as a few curious omnis, it's really helped me realise these people do care, they might not know the full extent of the cruelty of milk and eggs but the very friendly threads and discussions that often highlight the perils of milk and poultry often influence them and let them find out in a manner that'd not a vegan being angry at them for not doing enough

at least it's something, Imagine if 90% of people were vegetarian - the impact on the beef industry would be pretty major, and you never know with less demand for beef etc dairy animals might be treated better. Got to be positive about it.. being angry only alienates people

[snowflower]

I think it depends, for example, if they are first becoming a vegetarian but they aren't yet aware of what goes in in the egg and dairy industry because they haven't read up or researched that far yet, then they remind me of me up until a few months ago, as cobweb said "not quite there yet".

If they are a person who is AWARE of what goes on but still decide to eat eggs/dairy anyway, then yes they would be similar to a meat eater in my mind because they are still using/hurting animals. Its not okay to hurt/use/abuse an animal just because you're not going to eat them in the end.

[leedsveg]

I have to admit that I would have a problem with anybody who tried to impose their opinions on me, be they vegetarians, other religions, politics, etc. Educated and sensible discussion - yes. But bullying and bigotry - no. Many people like to wear their opinions on their sleeves, as if it was a badge of honour that everybody else should be bowing to. That's up to them - that's their style.

My view of vegetarians - no problems at all. I used to be one. I don't need to look down my nose at them because they don't subscribe to my values. But I certainly don't need them to be telling me what I should be thinking or doing!

Just the way I feel Greyowl. There are various reasons why a person would take up a vegetarian diet so I don't feel I can have a blanket view on vegetarianism.

leedsveg

[fiamma]

I think it depends, for example, if they are first becoming a vegetarian but they aren't yet aware of what goes in in the egg and dairy industry because they haven't read up or researched that far yet, then they remind me of me up until a few months ago, as cobweb said "not quite there yet".

If they are a person who is AWARE of what goes on but still decide to eat eggs/dairy anyway, then yes they would be similar to a meat eater in my mind because they are still using/hurting animals. Its not okay to hurt/use/abuse an animal just because you're not going to eat them in the end.

This is exactly how I feel.

[XchrisX]

i generally prefer meat eaters. meat eaters are usually blissfully unaware of actual how gross and wrong the meat, dairy, and poultry industries are. where as vegetarians know what goes on and feel they want to act upon it however they do not or will not make the leap to veganism and maintain exploiting animals in what seems to be equally brutal and if not worse than the meat industry as the suffering of the animals are prolonged as they are not killed as soon as possible for meat.

alot of vegetarians have looked down on me and my vegan friends for being too extreme and thinking its some over the top hippy rubbish.
furthermore alot of vegetarians wear some kind of leather mainly shoes, use products tested on animals and yet some how feel they are making a difference and feel they have moral superioty over meat eaters.
being vegetarian for a stepping stone is good if you can follow it though to veganism. i know what i have said is a very big generalisation but its just what i have noticed from experience.
im sorry if none of this makes sense or is spelt wrong, ive only just got out of bed and have not really woken up hahah

[Greyowl55]

being angry only alienates people

How true - in all walks of life.

There was a programme on 'How do they do it?' on one of the Sky channels the other night, probably a repeat, about mass egg production. I feel that you would only have to show a vegetarian that footage, sit back, smile smugly and say 'I rest my case'.

[Tish]

where as vegetarians know what goes on

When I was vegetarian I did not know what goes on in the dairy and egg industries. I thought that 'free-range' eggs were exactly that. This may have been naive on my part but my thinking at the time was 'I don't want to eat dead animals' and I didn't know much more about what goes on.

I definitely don't think we can assume that people know that know how the animals are treated as it is kept mostly hidden. Also, I was speaking to some people recently who didn't know that cow's milk was nursing milk for their babies- they either thought that it just 'came from' the cow or they hadn't thought about it at all.

As for the original question- I view vegetarians the same way as I view anyone else- they are just people who are where they are. I used to eat meat and I used to be vegetarian too. Now I am vegan and happy to be so but I wouldn't want to look down on anyone or denigrate their choice as it is their choice to make.

[harpy]

I don't view them any particular way but I think it's good to hang out with them because they are often quite receptive to vegan ideas - as has been pointed out some of them genuinely don't yet understand the reasons to be vegan, like wot some of us didn't used to

On forums etc I find it works best to be positive towards vegetarians, but still take the opportunities that come up to state the facts about dairy, eggs etc without getting personal about it. Some people are more receptive than others so it's probably better to direct these sorts of comments towards the receptive ones although obviously everyone else can read it as well. You can also explain that it's easier than they think to be vegan. (IIRC that is one of the things that influenced me to go vegan, hanging out on the old Compuserve vegetarian forum where there were some people who patiently explained why and how they were vegan and posted vegan recipes and so on.)

If the forum won't even let you post the facts about veganism then perhaps it's not the right forum.

[vava]

When I was vegetarian I went to a vegetarian fayre in my home town. There was a table with vegan reps there and one of the guys was VERY attractive and I glanced at him a couple of times and he glanced back. I nearly died and I thought - aw gawd I hope he doesn't come and talk to me - he must be weird if he is vegan. Live and learn eh? Hopefully! Alternatively I view vegetarians the same as omnis - they are all potential vegans. Woo!

[leedsveg]

When I was vegetarian I went to a vegetarian fayre in my home town. There was a table with vegan reps there and one of the guys was VERY attractive and I glanced at him a couple of times and he glanced back. I nearly died and I thought - aw gawd I hope he doesn't come and talk to me - he must be weird if he is vegan. Live and learn eh? Hopefully! Alternatively I view vegetarians the same as omnis - they are all potential vegans. Woo!

You should have spoken to me vava. I would have been nice to you...

lv

[cobweb]

You should have spoken to me vava. I would have been nice to you...

lv

he-he, maybe it WAS you!

[vava]

Swoons - you remember?

[missbettie]

lol you are way too funny guys.

[SlackAlice]

My best friend has been a Vegetarian for eighteen months now. I am happy to know that I was in some way instrumental in her decision to give up meat eating. I just answered all the questions she asked (trying hard not to roll my eyes at the 'stupid questions meat eaters ask' remembering I had asked them myself once!) and introduced her to eating out at Veggie Chef.

She decided on the spur of the moment one night as we were talking to give up meat. It has not been easy for her in a house full of meat eaters but she has managed to do it and whats more get everyone in the house to drink Soy milk!!

She is moving near and near to Veganism all the time and is aiming to 'get there' soon!

I have followed the same stages as her and am in no position to judge her for the fact she isnt quite there yet...I am just on the sidelines cheering her on

[Firestorm]

I was never a vegetarian (I decided to go from being a meat eater to a Vegan in a matter of hours - although it took a few weeks to use up all the dairy in the house so I suppose you could say I was a Vegetarian for those few weeks) and when I first became Vegan I saw Vegetarians as being prancing lightweights (please excuse the insult any Vegetarians reading this) and considered Vegans to be more "Enlightened", but over the last couple of years I have come to see them far more favourably.

I know several Vegetarians and they all genuinly care about animals, they want to stop them from suffering and not to be the cause of it.
I have generally found that the 2 main stumbling blocks that they have when considering becoming Vegan is that they are not aware of the suffering caused in the Egg/Dairy industries and that they consider becoming Vegan as a very scary step - and one that they dont want to fail at.

I no longer consider Vegetarians to be prancing lightweights, rather as Vegans in the making. I also have a bit more humility about being Vegan and consider it my role to help Vegetarians to become Vegan (if this is what they want).

[Glen Lambert]

I don't mind them as long as they aren't just hitching themselves to the word and then corrupting it to meet their appetite. Like the chef, Yottam Ottolenghi. According to him you can be vegetarian and still eat fish!
http://www.metro.co.uk/lifestyle/859...kfast-boundary
I know many veggies who eat chicken and fish. *shakes head*

[LuvAllLife]

Having been a vegetarian for so long myself, I can't paint them in a negative light since I am guessing that many, like I was, just don't know the whole truth behind dairy. I wonder how many vegetarians know there is a bit of veal 'in' every dairy product (nevermind the pus and all the other crap). I sure didn't. Changed my mind real quick. Either way, its a heck of a lot better than being omni!

[Clueless Git]

A couple, or three, of thoughts ..

Just one effective converter of others to a vegetarian diet is going to do more to alleviate animal suffering (and all the collaterals therof) than all the non effective vegans in the world will ever do.

(It is easier to convert omnis to vegetarianism than it is to convert them to veganism anyway?)

Personaly I am supportive of vegetarians and think that encouraging them for the step for they have made (as opposed to disparaging them for the step they, as of yet, havent made) is very very important.

Apart from 'vegetarians' <ahem!> who eat fish that is ...

They should be thrown into the sea, dragged back out in trawler nets, suffocated and then have their cold dead bodies thrown back into the sea as being 'surplus to quota'.

Mebbe then they will stop confusing fish with carrots.

[Andy_T]

Ah, interesting thought, CS!

The German VEBU (Vegetarian's association) is doing something that is called 'Half time Vegetarians' which says basically that if two meat-eaters decide to only consume half as much meat as before, that is effectively the same result as if one of them went vegetarian completely. Not a campaign I would want to specifically put any effort in, but hey.

Also reminds me very much of Ingrid Newkirk's standpoint on Ethical veganism (and Gary Francione's criticism of it) that you can read more about here:
PETA's Ingrid Newkirk on Principled Veganism: "Screw it"

I personally would agree with Francione here, agreeing that a lot of persons going vegetarian is better than them eating meat, but it is better to have one ethical vegan who acts as a 'beacon' to inform others and inspire them than hundred meat-eaters who miss out on one steak.

Best regards,
Andy

[Andy_T]

Personally I was a vegetarian for 20 years, and today I would have wished for somebody to open my eyes with 'creative, non-violent vegan education' about the problems with dairy and eggs.

Would I have gone vegan, had I known it? Hell, of course I do not know that for sure today.

I like to tell to myself, that I most likely would have. When I found out by reading 'Eating animals', I stopped consuming dairy and eggs that week. It brought tears to my eyes when I read 'Animal liberation' by Peter Singer (which is about anything but animal liberation, but at least it gives the facts) and found out that it was actually around in the eighties, and wished that I had read that book at the time.

So I might have, had I been given the facts earlier in a non-controversial, calm way. But about the only thing I had heard about veganism was from a German group called MAQI who have a rather rash approach, like on their website 'Vetetarians are murderers'. So when I heard their arguments, my reaction was to say 'So you say I might as well go back to eating meat immediately, it would be no different, if I do not turn vegan immediately - Sure, that does sound like a GREAT IDEA to me. Get lost.'

So nowadays, when I talk to vegetarians, I tell them about that. I try to convey the facts to them in a fashion as un-accusing as possible and also tell them that I myself was vegetarian for 20 years and that I would have wanted to know this information. Of course, when somebody then still steadfastly refuses (even though I say "Yes, it was the same with me, I also thought I could *never* give up cheese") to consider veganism and still thinks that they are doing something incredibly good for animals ... hmm, then it starts to get on my nerves ...

Best regards,
Andy

[Back-Space]

Thanks guys I actually started this thread after stumbling across a thread on the other forum entitled "Why aren't you vegan?" which I assumed would be vegans trying to persuade vegetarians over... instead it was filled with vegetarian excuses. Eerily enough, they sounds alot like omnivores when confronted. "It's too much effort. What would I eat? I like cheese and eggs too much. I've got more important things in my life to deal with." The thread's since been closed I wasn't the only the only one running my mouth.

I used vegetarianism as a stepping stone aswell. It makes it much easier when moving over, but I don't see why people stop half way through.

[Andy_T]

Backspace, just a hint, if you're interested in other forums, why not try out www.veganfreak.com and www.abolitionistapproach.com ?
Two abolitionist vegan forums, where you won't have such issues ;-)

Best regards,
Andy

[Back-Space]

Thanks, Ièll check those out Wasnèt sure what others were out there, so when I found that I joined it. Now my keyboardès messed up... If itès not vegetarians bugging me, itès PCs

[Clueless Git]

Ah, interesting thought, CS!

The German VEBU (Vegetarian's association) is doing something that is called 'Half time Vegetarians' which says basically that if two meat-eaters decide to only consume half as much meat as before, that is effectively the same result as if one of them went vegetarian completely. Not a campaign I would want to specifically put any effort in, but hey.

'Lo Andy

I was just viewing a recently bumped topic entitled something like "19,000 (1,900?) animals killed every minute in the USA alone".

Was just thinking that if there was a campaign that failed to produce one single convert to veg*ism but persuaded 100% of meat eaters to halve their consumption that is one hell of a lot of lives saved plus a 50% drop in all the collateral damage that meat eaters cause.

Also the more non meat meals that people eat tthe more likely it is that they will realise that they realy dont need meat to eat well at all.

Possibly, in the same way that a vegetarian is easier to convert to convert to veganisn than is a meat eater, it may be easier to convert someone who eats less meat to vegetariansim and then on to veganism from there?

I'm not actualy sure that VEBU don't have a very good idea there.

One thing I am 100% sure of is this though; If I were in the queue for the bolt gun I'd be VERY keen on anything aimed at seeing the rate of slaughter halved.

[DeMontfort]

I am generally nice to people. I don't 'preach' my views (unless you count teasing my omni fiancé).

I was a vegetarian all through my childhood, mainly because I genuinely did not realise what was wrong with dairy. We owned chicken, and cows need to be milked right? I stopped eating eggs after working on a turtle conservation project then milk later, cutting down over a year before becoming entirely vegan.

Now I am a vegan I get a little annoyed with vegetarians but that is mainly because I do not believe that a vegetarian can exist. How can you be a vegetarian if you support the death of animals? And that is what I said to the last vegetarian who asked.
I genuinely believe that most vegetarians do not know about the dairy industry however a friend of mine argued that because she was not eating the animal it was ok for her to drink milk but she is currently undertaking a biology/ecology thesis that involves testing on and killing insects. So maybe there are some vegetarians that just do not care.

Pescetarians and Pollo-Pescetarians however I do have a major problem with. I find them utterly disgusting running around calling themselves vegetarians with fish in their mouths. But I have a major problem with the fishing industry. Every time I see a child with a fishing rod I want to push them off the habour. A lot of children seem to fish in front of my house.
I have also just spent the past two weeks with my fiancé's fish eating sister and her children. I didn't say anything to them because I was always taught to be nice and polite. Discussing Israel is bad enough. And no I would never push a child off a habour, I just want to for a split second, a minor blip in my otherwise completely passivist personality.

In addition to this I am resentful of my lodger buying 4 pints of milk whenever he goes out without checking if he has milk in the fridge. He currently owns 12 pints!
He's a vegetarian but, although he would never admit it, he only converted because his best friend effectively told him to be a vegetarian. He doesn't care about animals, he doesn't care about the environment. He will never be converted to Veganism because he just does not care enough and is currently considering eating meat again as long as it is 'free-ranged', he already gets food from MacDonalds so it would not be long until his 'only free-ranged' turned into 'it's only one burger'. *Sorry a bit of a rant there.* My future uncle-in-law is also the same, he is a vegetarian because his wife is and would not be otherwise. He thinks vegans are nuts.

So in answer to your question. I am not sure what I think about vegetarians.
As for your situation you should probably try to 'educate them' and not be silenced for it just because it might *offend* people, you should probably stick to fact and not be disrespectful towards their beliefs regardless of how ridiculous you might find them. Personally I don't understand vegetarian in the slightest anymore.

[Alice88Jasper]

I think vegetarians are annoying,I get that their agleast doing something,But its like dude come on! that milk still come from a cow that got tortured an stuff and those eggs still came from a chicken that was tortured an stuff.I dont really go around saying that tho bekuz not everyone becomes a vegan for the animals like I did some ppl do it kuz their allergic to stuff,other health reasons,religion etc. But I just think its annoying when a vegetarian comes up to me an tells me they love animals when they still do annoying stuff like eating milk,eggs,cheese etc. kuz its like dude it still came from that tortured animal u clame to love hippocrit.

[together]

hi every body, there is an interesting solution for this special problem between Vegans and Vegetarians in Psycho Analysis, it was called "Narcissism of small differences" by Sigmund Freud . check it out! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism_of_small_differences

[harpy]

Hi together. Interesting point but I think it's debatable whether this is an instance of the "Narcissism of small differences". Some vegans feel that despite some claims made for vegetarianism, vegetarians' efforts don't really do much/any good because the benefits of their avoidance of meat is negated by their continued (or in my case, when I was a vegetarian, increased ) consumption of dairy etc. So there is a rational basis for feeling that the difference is actually fairly large.

Being pragmatic though, we have plenty of evidence that with a bit more information/thought some vegetarians are receptive to the idea of going vegan, so it might be more productive to take the line that we are all on the same "side"

[saundarimayee]

Thank you for some understanding. I am a long-time vegetarian making the transition to veganism and feel quite alienated and judged by both sides. I think some support and suggestions on how to eliminate animal products with vegan substitues would be alot more constructive than vegetarian bashing. At least we are on the right path, even if we still have some ways to evolve.

[harpy]

Hi saundarimayee - I think all of us would want to support someone that's making the transition to veganism, so please let us know if there's anything we can help with.

Having said that I'm not sure what products are available in Italy but I gather there is plenty of seitan, which is a good start! I also find it can be more helpful to plan dishes that work without any substitutes, i.e. they are based on vegetables, grains and legumes or nuts without the need for cheese etc.

[cedarblue37]

i view veggies with compassion as........getting there.

i was veggie for 16yrs - and i got there finally!

[Andy_T]

Hello saundarimayee,

great to have you here!!!

Please let us know which products you have the hardest time to substitute!
Most of us have been there, and tried that, so we know it is not always easy.

Best regards,
Andy

[maggielassie]

I think vegetarianism is a big step (so long as you eat a lot more carbohydrates, beans, vegetables & fruits, etc than you eat dairy or eggs), but it's not enough. Vegetarianism has to lead to veganism, a more logical step...

[made of sequins]

I definitely don't see myself as superior to vegetarians! nor do I view them with condescension or as people who "just haven't seen the light yet". and I realize that people have all kinds of different reasons for choosing not to eat meat. It's a mistake to assume that everyone who chooses to avoid eating meat does so for animal rights reasons.

[PuddleDuck]

I'm not sure if Vegetarianism (for ethical reasons) is very affective in America...
I've had Vegetarian friends claim they're "doing their part" by abstaining from eating animal flesh, but they never considered that buying dairy is supporting the veal and chicken industry, too. The only way to not support the meat- eating industry is to abstain from all purchases of animal- based product.
However, Jainist are Vegetarians, and can abide by their "harm no living thing" rule because there's no massive industry in India or East Africa where Jainism is widely practiced.
Hope this was insightful xx

[Risker]

but they never considered that buying dairy is supporting the veal and chicken industry, too.

I take it you mean buying eggs supports the chicken (meat) industry but I don't think it does.

[CoolCat]

I take it you mean buying eggs supports the chicken (meat) industry but I don't think it does.

Spent chickens will be slaughtered for meat. At some point egg production reduces and the chicken will be replaced out of economic reasons. This is well before the expected lifetime of a chicken. So by buying eggs you also contribute to that.

[Risker]

Spent chickens will be slaughtered for meat.

I don't think they are you know, at least not for human consumption. There are specific breeds for that. I'm sure their bodies are used for something or other though.

[CoolCat]

I don't think they are you know, at least not for human consumption. There are specific breeds for that. I'm sure their bodies are used for something or other though.

Here they would be known as chickens for soup. They would be cheaper and mainly used in processed foods, they wouldn't normally be sold in supermarkets to end consumers. Anyway it doesn't really matter what they are used for, vegetarians have a part in it. Ethical vegetarians oppose the killing of animals but still contribute to it.

[Risker]

^Yeah, ignore me, I realised what I was saying was probably wrong after posting it. Been doing accounts all day and it's turned my brain to mush. But yeah, like you say, it's a moot point what they're used for really.

[Andy_T]

A major problem with the egg industry is that 50% of chickens are not capable of laying eggs, due to missing ovaries.
That limits their life expectancy to a few hours - as long as it takes to "sex" the freshly hatched chickens.

Considering the living conditions of laying hens, I am not sure if it is a huge loss or rather a godsent for the mail chickens to be gassed/shredded/smothered immediately after birth, but it is certainly not something for a caring person (which I suppose most vegetarians to be) to support.

Best regards,
Andy

[Mymblesdaughter]

I have 3 vegetarian friends who are really into animal rights and have had times as Vegans, I must say I have a lot of time for them and have a lot in common with them. They campaign for animals and one set up a charity to help animals in Greece. Where as a Vegan for health reasons I find I have little in common with except what I eat. Although they are reducing the amount of animals that are killed, they still buy animal products eg. Leather, cleaning products and cosmetics tested on animals etc.

Although I wished they'd turn to veganism, I'm glad to see people trying to do something in a world were apathy is the norm.

Some Vegetarians I really find annoying though, I think a lot depends on the individual and their motivation.

[marcelito]

How do i view them ? i view them as any other people in the world. I respect them and i respect their choice. Nothing worst than a vegan trying to convert people.
P.S: Im vegan.

[sandra]

I don't see anything wrong in trying to 'convert' someone to veganism, as long as it's done in a nice, non-confrontational way. It would be nice for the whole world to progress to a more civilized place afterall.

As far as how I view vegetarians...........I was one for many years and can't believe I didn't realise, that even though I wasn't eating meat I was still contributing to animal suffering. I wish I had known a vegan friend back then to educate me properly about veganism.

[Terran]

^I agree, both about the converting and about wishing I'd known a vegan back then.

Anyway, I think of vegetarians the same way I think of meat eaters. If they can go vegan then I think they should and if they want to hear it I'd be happy to explain to them why, and if they can't go vegan then vegetarianism is still better than nothing.

[Andy_T]

What Sandra said!!!

And I am really happy whenever I can help somebody else "see the light".

I personally find it much easier (from my experiences) to explain to vegetarians that they are still causing suffering, having been one myself for about 20 years (out of ignorance, not wilfully wanting to consume animal products so much that I did not want to stop), than to talk to meat-eaters and convince them to go vegan. That's also why I find it frustrating when I encounter those that do not want to understand the problems.

Best regards,
Andy