Disturbed by family dinner conversation about meat

[misosoup]

So I was over my parents house for a big family dinner. My parents, sister, cousin and uncle and auntie were over. The dinner was steak and roast veg.
And they started to talk about meat, and I was so disturbed I had to leave the table. They were talking about how to create the perfect cow out of different breeds to make the best beef, and saying about sperm and all that. It was so dehumanising, I can't think of another word. To hear people talk about living, feeling creatures like they are just products was so disturbing. How can people sit around talking about sperm to make meat, don't they wonder how it's all done? It's so creepy how detached people are. And then came out the huge amounts of cheese, and I had to leave the table.

They were talking about castration and organic meat and which tastes nicer. I just wanted to scream. These are living, feeling creatures! How can people talk aboud sperm and castration and not realise how fucked up and perverse it is? They were talking about how some people prefer basic meat to free range and it tasted better, and how free range chickens aren't as big. So much disconnect going on.

I seriously cannot relate to people any more! To hear my family members talk about animals in such a horrible way, I try and think they are just brainwashed, but it's hard. They knows my views on animals and I have educated them, but they shush me up. They are willfully ignorant, they choose to be.

And then my sister goes on about how she could never be a vet and 'see animals suffer'. Fuck sake. So much hypocracy. She's been the most anti veganism and gets quite agressive if I bring it up.

So see people who I've always liked sit there and discuss animals in such a cold way, it was hard for me to switch off and pretend to be OK with the conversation. It's like hearing a bunch of your mates being racist or sexist. They view animals as just things to be eaten and impregnated. Yet were quite happy to pet and play with our dog.

[Astrid660]

That is sad, I'm sorry you had to endure such one way conversations and blatant hypocrisy. Unfortunately, most people, (myself included before I went vegan)may be smart and caring towards animals, but don't make the link between that and the fact that eating them is wrong based on their preexisting morals.

People are brainwashed. It's sad but true. Think of how many veg commercials you see on tv. When was the last commercial you saw saying to eat broccoli? Dairy free alternatives? Veggie dogs? Whole wheat bread? That's right, probably never. How many commercials for steak restaurants, eggs, cheese, milk, milk chocolates, fast food restaurants, cooking shows, etc. TONS.
Constantly people are being told to eat meat and not even question it.

A disconnect definitely occurs. Is it right? no. Is it frustrating for us vegans/vegetarians? Yes.

I'm on a short vacation right now to a bigger city and, while I've managed to get delicious vegan indian and Vietnamese food, I am a sensitive person who hates asking questions galore to restaurant staff (I'm a waitress so I know how sometimes it annoys me when I'm busy and people do the same to me so I hate to impose!) and I was nearly in tears last night ranting about WHY I am the WEIRD one, when to me, it's weird that animal products are in evvvverrrrything!

I feel your pain. It feels like the world is never going to change. But I have faith that it is changing, and sometimes it's just not worth taking it personal when people don't understand. I find it's better to be positive and lead by example. Better, in the long run. By no means is it easy to turn a blind eye and stay neutral when you want to yell "WTF is the matter with you?!" to most omni driven conversations.

[harpy]

I'm sorry you had that experience, misosoup.

Apart from anything else, it seems extra-insensitive to have that conversation with you there - do you think it's possible they were trying to get some kind of reaction out of you? Good idea not to provide one - you have a lot of self-control!

Could you arrange to go after the meal another time, if that's mainly when these conversations happen? If you have to do it again maybe you could think up your own string of controversial topics to inject into the conversation to distract them

[misosoup]

I really had to bite my tongue. How can people talk about castration and buying sperm like it's a normal thing? How can they talk about something so distubring and sad around a family dinner?

My mum had made asparagus and didn't tell me it had butter on it. I went to reach for some, and she said 'Just take the ones without butter on'. And I quickly withrew my fork, and my sister just rolled her eyes at me.

In all honesty, my sister and parents aren't very nice people anyways. The day after my sister's dog was killed she was talking about getting another dog and didn't even seem bothered when her horse was killed by a car. She rides horses and doesn't see a big deal when horses die in racing because 'it would happen in the wild'. I wouldnt ever except them to care for animals.

[Peabrain]

Apart from anything else, it seems extra-insensitive to have that conversation with you there - do you think it's possible they were trying to get some kind of reaction out of you? Good idea not to provide one - you have a lot of self-control!

I had the same thought.

Unfortunately, most people, (myself included before I went vegan) may be smart and caring towards animals, but don't make the link between that and the fact that eating them is wrong based on their preexisting morals.

Very true.

It's got to have been very painful, and especially when it's people you care about, but you know your own mind miso, and at the very least, you acted with dignity and showed them that you will stand by your ethics proudly.

Sending you hugs.

[misosoup]

My sister was also telling us about her best friend who has chosen to wear real snakeskin shoes for her wedding. I did speak up about this. But she was saying that they take the shedded skin from snakes to use for fashion. I tried to say this wasn't true, but she just spoke over me and said I was being rude.

How can anyone wear snakeskin shoes? It's not even a by-product ffs. It's sick. It's just sociopathic mentality of just taking what you like and not caring.

I actually think I'm caring less and less about them. They can't respect me so why should I sit and listen to them and respect their talk on castration and what animals taste nicest? I didn't feel included in the meal. My mother didn't make anything for me saying 'I don't do vegan'. All she had to do was ask me to bring something.

I'm feeling pretty pissed off today. I wonder what it must be like to be as ignorant as that. And I think a lot of it is down to them as people, because I was raised in the same family and I have totally different views.

[Peabrain]

I didn't feel included in the meal. My mother didn't make anything for me saying 'I don't do vegan'. All she had to do was ask me to bring something.

That's just mean. You have my sympathies, I can understand why you're angry and disappointed. I've been lucky, in that the worst I've had is my tendency for me and my children to catch bugs to be blamed on my vegan diet (even though we caught plenty of bugs before being vegan)... Well, at the very least, if they aren't understanding, we will be here for you.

[harpy]

Do you think your mum was perhaps hoping that if there wasn't anything vegan you would eat some of their non-vegan food? I realise there is no way this would work but maybe she thought it would? I think you mentioned before that your family didn't really agree with your being vegan.

Personally I would try and avoid getting into this situation again by just taking my own food without discussing it (ETA though I would probably mention beforehand that you're planning to) or else by meeting them at times other than mealtimes. Not much point confronting them about it as you've already tried that, I think - though equally there is no reason you shouldn't speak your mind when you feel like it.

Presumably you have some common ground with them - i.e. topics that you're all interested in and agree on - so maybe you can try and focus them on that another time? I know it's difficult to find any with some rellies though :/

[misosoup]

I dunno, it's no so much they didn't make anything for me.
It was just the conversation that upset me, hearing them talk about castration so matter-of-factly. Do they not consider the pain this would cause? My dad was talking about it. As a man, does this not disturb him? How can people sit around a table and talk about something so cruel while they sit there and eat their steaks.

[Peabrain]

Yeah I can see it's not the food, so much, as the gesture (or lack of it), and throw away comments like "I don't do vegan" shows disregard. But it could be for any number of reasons that don't necessarily mean you are not cared about, but perhaps pride, defensiveness, or plain ignorance get in the way...

Most people are very successful at compartmentalising things. Even we have to do that at times (not to ignore situations that need attention, but just to be able to stay balanced so that we can function and also advocate effectively), it's just that in our cases we can't or more often, we chose not to shut it all out... Maybe we're braver, maybe we're more sensitive, maybe both, but we're in touch with a part of ourselves most non-vegans are not. Whether it's because it's too scary or they really just don't care, perhaps will never be clear.

Of course, I'm not saying you have to tolerate it, you deserve better. I used to think vegans were weirdos before I became one, but still I would never have behaved in those ways with a vegan person, especially not a family member/friend.

[misosoup]

My father has coeliac's disease so, my sister is on a diet, so we are no strangers to alternative ways of eating. If she had asked me to bring something, I would have. They really hate me being vegan. If I bring anything vegan, i'm trying to force it on them. But my mum was trying to force the butter covered veg on me.
I've been veggie since I was 10, so it's not a new thing.

I just felt very left out. I even bought snacks- caramelised pecans and spiced popcorn, to have with coffee. And I made a gift bag of honeycomb to give to my cousin to take back to his family in Canada. Yes, they were vegan. But I'm not going to make non-vegan food, I don't have any in my home. And it's a part of who I am, that's what gifts are.

I dunno, I just felt very left out. I guess a lot of vegans have this with family and friends, it's like you've tapped into something the rest of them can't see. When they talk about animals and meat, they think steak and chips. Me, I have images of animals being killed and all those pictures I've seen and it's hard to switch off from it and just carry on with a fun family conversation with the image of animals being castrated in your head.

Yeah, Peabrain, I have wondered what it is. I don't have anything 'special' about me that makes me sensetive to this stuff. I am quite a black and white thinker I guess, in that if I have an opinion or belief I stick to it and I'm not easily swayed. I also don't subsribe to the idea that just because 'it's natural and it's what humans do' that makes it OK. That's a cop-out IMO. I have always seen animals as equal to me, they feel pain and fear and they have a right not to feel that way.

[harpy]

To me, a good thing about being grown up is that it doesn't really matter whether your family agrees with what you do, and you don't have to have any more to do with them than you want.

Once I took that on board (actually quite a long time after I was technically grown up) strangely enough my relationships with my (v small) family became more cordial. They probably sense that they need to treat me the same way as any other adult if they want to hang out with me. So even if some of them don't agree with my choices, including being vegan, they know better than to say so

Maybe you would feel better too if you did some things that made you feel more in control of the situation? You don't have to be nasty back, just assertive.

[Blueberries]

They really hate me being vegan.

Wow, that sounds like a tough situation . My experience is that families usually grow to accept your veganism over time. Not necessarily understand it or agree with it with but accept or at least tolerate it. I think that's the most we can really expect alot of the time.

[Gwydion]

I'll be honest, I rarely get invited to family get-togethers these days. I am convinced it is because of my veganism and it being too much effort to cater to/for, and not because I am a weirdo know it all freak face.

I am ok with this, prefer my meals sans surrounded by death anyway

Good luck Misosoup.

[misosoup]

I'm sorry that's happened Gwydion. This is why it's annoying when people accuse vegans of exaggerating how bad the meat and dairy industry is. If they saw the family and social exclusion it causes and how awkward it is for us, I mean, life would be so much easier for us if we ate meat and dairy. We are not doing this for fun!

Just thinking, they are the ones sitting around talking about castrating cattle and I'm the weirdo??

I think the snakeskin shoes bothered me more, tbh. This is a girl who I've known for most of my life, she's my sister's friend. I was disgusted. She'll only wear them once for her wedding, and my sister reckons it's from skin that the snake has shed, or that's what she tells herself.

I think I just had a day of casual animal cruelty overload.

[Blueberries]

I'll be honest, I rarely get invited to family get-togethers these days.

Aww We should have veganforum family get-togethers

[Clueless Git]

I guess a lot of vegans have this with family and friends, it's like you've tapped into something the rest of them can't see.

I have a horrible suspicion, now bordering on conviction, that "can't" (as opposed to "won't") is exactly the right word in most cases Miso.

It's been on my mind for quite a while now that not giving up on encouraging/educating/harrasing/shaming people to see what they are not capable of seeing is kinda pointlessly cruel. Kinda akin to the pontless cruelty of never giving up trying to teach a hamster to play the piano.

Moving away from people who love/like us for reasons they are not capable of seeing and therefore will never understand is cruel too though.

Equaly, having to watch and listen to what we can see and know to be cruelty is cruel to us and to watch or listen without acting or speaking makes us complicit in that cruelty also.

Talk about getting stuck twix a rock and a hard place!

[misosoup]

Yeah, just listening them talk about castrating cattle was like a punch in the stomach. How does that not register as cruel? Seriously?

[Peabrain]

Equaly, having to watch and listen to what we can see and know to be cruelty is cruel to us and to watch or listen without acting or speaking makes us complicit in that cruelty also.

Totally. It's a struggle, knowing that compassion is about acceptance of others faults (not acceptance as in "I respect your actions" but acceptance as in "I realise you have self-will that is autonomous from my own."), yet also knowing that one has to have compassion for oneself, and of course the animals...

I reckon, that voting with one's feet is actually reasonable if people are being consistently disrespectful. It's one thing for non-vegans to never accept your choices, or never accept their choices are "poor" at best, but there is no necessity to deliberately be offensive. Not that I'm advising you to cut them off misosoup, just that if you prefer to only be around them in certain circumstances, that's understandable.

Just like one would make it a point not be cruel to them in the quest to educate/enlighten them, it should be a two way street.

Have you ever tried talking to them, at a time that is not near a mealtime, is more private (not in front of in-laws or something), and telling them how their behaviour makes you feel? Sometimes, we can talk about people's actions, rights & wrongs, and to be blaming, but if the other person has it explained from an emotional point of view, it can be more successful.

So for instance, instead of; "You are really disrespectful/rude to me, and I really hate that you are a 'meat-eater'." one could say; "I am vegan for many reasons, all of them very well reasoned and thought out, and it hurts when you say and do things that disregard that. If you ever wish to know more about it, I will happily answer your questions, but at the very least, would you please consider my feelings a bit more."

That's roughly what I've said to people, and it seemed to work (albeit I don't think anyone's been nearly as cruel to me about veganism, as your family have been to you about it).

I'm only fairly new to veganism, so I don't mean to come across as a know-it-all, but communication issues have played themselves out in my life before, in regard to different matters, and some of my family (one person in particular) have been disrespectful about other things, so I'm reasonably well versed in that respect at least!

[Peabrain]

PS...

Kinda akin to the pontless cruelty of never giving up trying to teach a hamster to play the piano.

I know you were making a serious parallel to the topic at hand, but I couldn't help imagining a tiny furry virtuoso in a tuxedo, playing Mozart's Rondo alla Turca!



Maybe this will at least put a smile on your face miso!

[misosoup]

I have a horrible suspicion, now bordering on conviction, that "can't" (as opposed to "won't") is exactly the right word in most cases Miso.

You could say that a sociopath 'can't' have compassion rather than won't. I think 'can't' and 'won't are very similar. Like some people are totally convinced they are not abusers and blame the victim, or they can't remember, or flat out deny it. Their personalities prevent them from realising it about themselves. Their egos take over.

Why were there some people who were anti-racism during the times when racism was the norm? Were they immune from brainwashing? What did they all have in common? I'd be interested to know.

Peabrain. I've only talked about it once. It was a family dinner and I asked my mum if there was butter on something. I bought up that I was now vegan for ethical reasons. My sister's response was I was a 'fucking idiot with too much time on my hands'. She's also quite racist and closed minded, and hates how 'bleeding heart' I am and thinks I'm too 'PC'.
My father just said it's stupid for me to go against 2000 years of evolution and what humans have always done and how unnatural I am.
My mum tries to say I should eat organic dairy, no matter how many times I try and explain why I won't.
So yeah, I don't get on with my family really and my veganism has pushed me out even further.

Also, I feel bad that I didn't bring up how some cattle are castrated without anasthetic, or said more to stand up for the animals. I had to leave the table because it was too disturbing for me to listen to.

[Peabrain]

I understand why you might feel bad, but I don't think you should beat yourself up, it's sounds like in that moment you needed to escape find a peaceful moment away rather than fight with people who seem mostly to be the type that won't listen anyway. If you cause yourself to suffer, you won't be as capable of being the good example that you are, to people who will take heed of your message.

[Tabbycat]

Yeah, sometimes I think you have to know when to pick your battles. Sadly it sounds like you are in a no win situation with your family. There's a lot of truth to the serenity prayer.

Grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

[misosoup]

Yeah, true. I've been trying to ground myself through mindfulness and do radical acceptance. I've been invited to my sister's friend's wedding, but I'm so disgusted that she's wearing snakeskin shoes and is pretending they're made with the shed skin, and I got shot down when I tried to tell the truth.
It's not even for food, it's just fashion. Poor snakes.

[Eileen Dover]

So for instance, instead of; "You are really disrespectful/rude to me, and I really hate that you are a 'meat-eater'." one could say; "I am vegan for many reasons, all of them very well reasoned and thought out, and it hurts when you say and do things that disregard that. If you ever wish to know more about it, I will happily answer your questions, but at the very least, would you please consider my feelings a bit more."

I am glad your approach has been successful Peabrain ..but I am assuming that the people you delivered that to are reasonable and intelligent. I am dealing with a family member who only responds to the loud speaker and sledge hammer approach!

This is not the type of individual who lapses into 'Omni' appropriate conversation without considering your sensibilities, this is the type of individual who tramples over those sensibilities for entertainment.

For him I am perfecting a 'dont feed the monkey because he is already choking himself before my eyes' approach.

He has a stock supply of weary, clumsy taunts based on all the stereo-types of Vegans he has gleaned from the pages of The Sun that he reels out whenever he is bored, or feeling left out. He thinks he is funny and those who love him will laugh along even knowing that he is not, and even they struggle.

It used to offend me but I am learning not to respond and not to take it personally..after all he has jokes for everyone, no race or disability escapes his cutting humour

And ..dont even get him started on politics!!!!!

That being the case any dinner guest or onlooker has gauged the intellectual level he works at long before he starts on the Vegan tirade and has dismissed him as a thinker.

I realise I do not need to expose him , he exposes himself as a juvenile numbskull everytime he opens his mouth.l

Why the hell would anyone take anything he says seriously????

[Peabrain]

For him I am perfecting a 'dont feed the monkey because he is already choking himself before my eyes' approach.

LOL... Sounds like a right plonker (because I can't say the other word which ends with "er")...

I must be quite lucky, 'cos I've not come across anyone of that ilk (yet), the worst I've ever had is someone who said very loudly in the school playground while we were waiting for our children at home time, who said "Corr, I'm so hungry I could eat a dead horse!" then looked at me with horror and regret and said "ooh, sorry you're a vegetarian" (have you ever noticed how some people don't like saying the word vegan even if they know you're one?)... I burst out laughing and said "I can just imagine you trying to eat a live one".

Shortly thereafter the horse meat "scandal" erupted, and of course I somehow attracted plenty of "I eat vegetarian 3 times a week" statements when I hadn't even asked. I don't know if they thought I'd smite them down or something...

Maybe that's why the a-holes of the non-vegan world start with their rubbish, because they secretly feel judged. But who's doing the real judging eh?

[Blueberries]

I am dealing with a family member who only responds to the loud speaker and sledge hammer approach!...He has a stock supply of weary, clumsy taunts based on all the stereo-types of Vegans he has gleaned from the pages of The Sun that he reels out whenever he is bored, or feeling left out. He thinks he is funny...he has jokes for everyone, no race or disability escapes his cutting humour...And ..dont even get him started on politics!!!!!

Family can be tough :'(
Does he not realise that insulting people think will make them think that he's obnoxious??

[Andy_T]

Misosoup and Eileen,

I really feel for you!!!

Never forget that there are also other people out there, who feel and care. Sometimes it can get really hard if you are surrounded by people who simply do not care.

Best regards,
Andy

[Eileen Dover]

Family can be tough :'(
Does he not realise that insulting people think will make them think that he's obnoxious??

Obnoxious is his default position Blueberries!

He is aware that he is not the 'sharpest knife in the draw' and will admit to that in weak moments.. but instead of building his knowledge by reading, discussing or even thinking more he seems to revel in his own ignorance.

- - - Updated - - -

"ooh, sorry you're a vegetarian" (have you ever noticed how some people don't like saying the word vegan even if they know you're one?)... I burst out laughing and said "I can just imagine you trying to eat a live one".

Shortly thereafter the horse meat "scandal" erupted, and of course I somehow attracted plenty of "I eat vegetarian 3 times a week" statements when I hadn't even asked. I don't know if they thought I'd smite them down or something...

Maybe that's why the a-holes of the non-vegan world start with their rubbish, because they secretly feel judged. But who's doing the real judging eh?

Firstly..yes he is a plonker and were he not my daughters partner I would not be within a ten mile radius of him.

Yes ..I know what you mean!

At work I come across it all the time. I have a friend who apologies to me every time she bites into an animal sandwich saying 'I know its wrong dont judge me'.

And the 'I eat Vegetarian 3 times a week ' is also familiar to me.

I think we make them uncomfortable and squirmy because we are a physical representation of conscience !

[Eileen Dover]

Misosoup and Eileen,

I really feel for you!!!

Never forget that there are also other people out there, who feel and care. Sometimes it can get really hard if you are surrounded by people who simply do not care.

Best regards,
Andy

Yes it is hard Andy because it shows a basic lack of respect .

My daughter insists that he cares for me very much but how can you care without respect?

[Clueless Git]

And the 'I eat Vegetarian 3 times a week ' is also familiar to me.

Possible response; " ... and I don't beat my wife/kids/dog, drive drunk or go shoplifting on Sundays "

[Andy_T]

Indeed, but you have to practice delivering that line in a serious tone without showing any outward signs of amusement.

[misosoup]

LOL I could never deliver that line with a straight face. I get so annoyed when people say that.

[tickled onion]

i find changing the topic to pooh shuts people up quite rapidly, most of them are constipated with all that meat, i'm like that dodgy scottish woman!

[Peabrain]

i find changing the topic to pooh shuts people up quite rapidly, most of them are constipated with all that meat, i'm like that dodgy scottish woman!

HAHAHAHA!!! I have found that my bowel functions much better since veganism, so I could imagine a response such as; "...and I poo once a day without ANY straining or explosive diarrhoea" would be quite apt. Education is key after all.

[Andy_T]

"...and I poo once a day without ANY straining or explosive diarrhoea"

Aaah, Peabrain, try to be a bit more adventurous with what you eat ... it's too boring that way ;-)

Beans, onions and chillies make your life more interesting...

[Peabrain]

Hehe...

[VeganEsthie]

I'm sorry you had to have that experience, but unfortunately it happens a lot when you start paying attention to it. My manager at work loves to bring in mink coats and show them off to me even though she knows I hate them(and her honestly). Then I have clients that like to go on and on about how they get good deals on meat at certain grocery stores and how you can "slice through it like butter." I think if half my coworkers weren't vegetarian it would be going into work that much harder.

[Blueberries]

My manager at work loves to bring in mink coats and show them off to me even though she knows I hate them(and her honestly).

Wow I thought even most omnis were against fur!

[pat sommer]

...oh so painfully familiar, all those omni social interactions. Probably why I developed such a sick twisted sense of humour as my daughter admiringly tells me.
I live to spoil an ignoramus's fun.
Well chosen agricultural anecdotes or secret recipe's... I file away so many tidbits to fire as torpedoes. With a sweet smile, of course.

Don't get sad get wicked

[Opus 32]

I had the thought fairly recently that becoming a vegan is a product of "taking the red pill" when it comes to the reality of animal suffering.

[pat sommer]

oh, had to look that up, not being a sci-fi fan. Now it will definitely be in my toolbox; maybe have a T-shirt made

[Clueless Git]

I had the thought fairly recently that becoming a vegan is a product of "taking the red pill" when it comes to the reality of animal suffering.

I'd go further ...

It's "taking the red pill" when it comes to the reality of human suffering.

The ways in which the illusion that humans can be a cause of suffering without bringing suffering back upon ourselves are, almost, too numerous to list.