Does man really need to possess pets or can we just leave the animals alone?

[goodoldrebel]

I truly believe that the entire pet industry is based on the emotional adolescent level immaturity of the consumer. Some need a big vet bill to grow up. Can we not just leave the animals alone? When I see something like the mindless 'dog shows' as MSG etc. I say to myself "how shallow a society are we that we treat animals like a piece of clothing we're trying to show off". A great many individuals are trying to wear their personality vicariously through the dog they own.

The reality especially in the city is that pets create excrement all over the sidewalk etc. in the suburbs-- all over the lawn==all this for what- some shallow adolescent fantasy. You really want a dog, go be a sheep herder, then you need a dog for a purpose. I see this phenomenon that sometimes the pets get to be the center of attention in the family instead of the focus going to the children. A pet should not be at the center of a family's emotional existence or the glue that binds the family together. That's just the epitome of shallowness.

I know that what I am expressing is somewhat edgy but some will understand.

I adopted a horse many years ago and had her for many years. I saw so many wanna bees who bought a horse just as a status symbol. They couldn't even ride. This I believe is the same motivation regarding household pets. Its a status symbol that the owner thinks somehow "creates' an image for themselves. Even the 'image' of the wholesome family with their "lab" is still an image.

Then you have the animal hoards which are just unsanitary beings that are unable to care for themselves never mind animals. Whether you cage them up while your at work or hoard them in some unsanitary ghetto like environment all in all possessing pets is just another form of imprisoning them. In one form or another they are imprisoned based on the adolescent idea that a human can fill some emotionally void with a pet.


If you truly care about animals then volunteer at a humane society and don't contribute to this pet industry by trying to develop a aura about yourself based on the animal that you possess. You can love animals without having to possess them.

[leedsveg]

Hi gor and welcome to Vegan Forum.

Not had a companion animal myself for nearly 50 years but many members of the forum currently do, and no doubt they'll respond to the points you have raised.

Leedsveg

[Firestorm]

Hi Goodoldrebel, welcome to the forum.

I can understand what you say and yes I agree, but the problem is that animal sanctuary's are filled with pets that people no longer want, they then have to either live in the sanctuary for the rest of their lives or are put to sleep.
I do think that the pet industry should be abolished and breeders of animals banned from doing this, but at the moment they are not and that leaves us with a huge quantity of animals that either need a home or will be killed.
I would rather see these animals adopted by people who will care for them, than see them killed.
Until the root of the problem is sorted (breeders etc) I think adopting a companion animal and offering them a safe place to live is a good thing.

Again welcome to the forum

[missbettie]

^ +1

I currently have 3 rescues, as my guinea pig just passed away...and I will continuing on rescuing until I can no longer. I feel I owe it to the little furballs considering what people have done to them....

and really, my compainions ARE the center of my life, and they do bring me and my boyfriend closer together...I really see nothing wrong with that.

[goodoldrebel]

Hi gor and welcome to Vegan Forum.

Not had a companion animal myself for nearly 50 years but many members of the forum currently do, and no doubt they'll respond to the points you have raised.

Leedsveg

thanks leeds for the warm welcome and positive feedback

[Blueberries]

Hi goodoldrebel, welcome to the forum!
You definately express strong views about pet ownership, some of which I agree with and some I don't.
I agree that many people just see animals as things that they can own to somehow bolster themselves, and that in alot of instances people do not have the animals' best interests at heart. People should not take care of pets unless they have the time and resources to ensure that they can put the animal's needs first.

There are a few sentiments that I have taken issue with though.

don't contribute to this pet industry

Most vegans agree that breeders bringing animals into existance purely for profit is wrong. Usually vegans support rescuing/adopting an animal that otherwise wouldn't have anywhere else to go, and probably couldn't survive in the wild by itself, and neuter it so that it doesn't contribute to pet over-population or to the 'pet industry'.

n one form or another they are imprisoned based on the adolescent idea that a human can fill some emotionally void with a pet.

I don't think that that's necessarily an adolescent idea. People find many different ways to fill emotional voids. If a pet is being taken care of properly with it's interests being put first, and that gives it's carer more of a purpose in life then I have no problem with that.

volunteer at a humane society

The problem with many humane societies and shelters is that they don't have the resources to take care of all animals that need to be taken care of, that's where the willingness of responsible pet owners/carers to take these animals into their homes and provide them with the care that they need comes in.

I'm sure other forum memberes will pick up on other points that I have missed. You're sure to start a bit of a debate with this one!

[goodoldrebel]

Hi Goodoldrebel, welcome to the forum.

I can understand what you say and yes I agree, but the problem is that animal sanctuary's are filled with pets that people no longer want, they then have to either live in the sanctuary for the rest of their lives or are put to sleep.
I do think that the pet industry should be abolished and breeders of animals banned from doing this, but at the moment they are not and that leaves us with a huge quantity of animals that either need a home or will be killed.
I would rather see these animals adopted by people who will care for them, than see them killed.
Until the root of the problem is sorted (breeders etc) I think adopting a companion animal and offering them a safe place to live is a good thing.

Again welcome to the forum

I agree with you whole heartedly but the reality is that most beings do not adopt. They buy a pet as they would a car or a shirt and when they tire of the 'item' they give it to the humane society.

[Firestorm]

I agree with you whole heartedly but the reality is that most beings do not adopt. They buy a pet as they would a car or a shirt and when they tire of the 'item' they give it to the humane society.

I think we are definitely singing from the same hymn sheet but you may find that most people on this forum have adopted, we need to try and stop these breeders and start getting other people to adopt as well.

Again welcome to the forum

[goodoldrebel]

Hi goodoldrebel, welcome to the forum!
You definately express strong views about pet ownership, some of which I agree with and some I don't.
I agree with you that many people just see animals as things that they can own to somehow bolster themselves, and that in alot of instances people do not have the animals' best interests at heart. People should not take care of pets unless they have the time and resources to ensure that they can put the animal's needs first.

There are a few sentiments that I have taken issue with though.



Most vegans agree that breeders that bring animals into existance purely for profit are wrong. Usually vegans support rescuing/adopting an animal that otherwise wouldn't have anywhere else to go, and probably couldn't survive in the wild by itself, and neuter it so that it doesn't contribute to pet over-population and not contributuing to the 'pet industry'.



I don't think that that's necessarily an adolescent idea, many people find many ways to fill emotional voids. If a pet is being taken care of properly with it's interests are put first, and that gives it's carer more of a purpose in life then I have no problem with that.



The problem with many humane societies and shelters is that they don't have the resources to take care of all animals that need to be taken care of, that's where the willingness of responsible pet owners/carers to take these animals into their homes and provide them with the care that they need comes in.

I'm sure other forum memberes will pick up on other points that I have missed. You're sure to start a bit of a debate with this one!

Thanks for the sincere response and you have made a valid point about the shelters and the need for adoption although I still feel overall that this emotionally 'satisficing' pet owners attempt to accomplish with the animal is somewhat adolescent and limited life experience in nature. Just my gut feeling on that from my life's observations. No offense intended towards any pet owners.

[goodoldrebel]

^ +1

I currently have 3 rescues, as my guinea pig just passed away...and I will continuing on rescuing until I can no longer. I feel I owe it to the little furballs considering what people have done to them....

and really, my compainions ARE the center of my life, and they do bring me and my boyfriend closer together...I really see nothing wrong with that.

I can understand how much of a kind heart you must have for adopting but wasn't for example the guinea pig a sort of prisoner. why not just try to recolonize it back to its natural habitat. What about all the products that go along with pet ownership,like the prevention of of fleas and ticks. Do you not contribute in some form to the pet industry by purchasing related items such as flea shampoo etc.?

[missbettie]

I think that a lot of what you are talking about is getting a little nit picky....all we can do is be the best people or vegans we can be, and guinea pigs are not indigenious to the area I live, and if I had "let her go" or realeased her into the "wild" she would have died a looooong time ago...the best I can do for the little creatures in the shelters, is adopt them and provide the best home I can for them.

you have to realize that you are posting this on a vegan forum? we all pretty much feel very similar about these sort of topics, some going to different extremes than others of course. Some believe that "owning" animal is not right, but some believe that adopting and giving care to those that would otherwise be killed is the correct way....bottom line is, all we can do is our best. And I, 100 percent believe I am doing my best by adopting. And yes, I have on occasion have purchased flea medication....but unfortunately it is a necessary evil to keep my kitties healthy...same as the medication I take myself...which with no doubt most likely has been tested on animals...

unfortunately, we are vegans, living in a non vegan world. We must live the best way we know how.

[goodoldrebel]

I think we are definitely singing from the same hymn sheet but you may find that most people on this forum have adopted, we need to try and stop these breeders and start getting other people to adopt as well.

Again welcome to the forum

I too think that we share a common core of experience. I have adopted always but I've come to the realization at this stage in my life that there is a vicious cycle of breeding, adolescent novelty purchasing and shelter dumping when the 'toy' loses its shine.
We need to make it more difficult to purchase pets. Either heavily tax the consumer at point of sale and annually unless they adopted.

Money is always the best way to modify a behavior. I really want to rip my teeth out when I see someone prancing down the street with their 'designer' dog inside their 'designer' bag. Its the same adolescent mentality that think people are gawking at them because of the car they drive.

People need people--animal is no substitute--its just a cop out from interacting.

[missbettie]

well in some area's it is getting a lot harder to purchase pets. Most pet stores that i'm aware of, especially around here do not sell pets. And some of them actually go and rescue pets from the shelters and adopt them out of the pet store, which is super neat.

I just really disagree with you that having a pet in the home is an adolescent way of thinking...I have a rabbit that I have had for 5 years, a domesticated rabbit that I found hopping across a really busy high way....and I just moved her so she is living in my back yard/my house....a few years ago, she only lived in my house, i didn't have a back yard....but now she pretty much just goes where she wants to....And honestly...I have to say...I really do not like rabbit too much...I love "my" rabbit, but I probably will never adopt another one...guinea pigs on the other hand....i'll probably adopt a few more.

[goodoldrebel]

well in some area's it is getting a lot harder to purchase pets. Most pet stores that i'm aware of, especially around here do not sell pets. And some of them actually go and rescue pets from the shelters and adopt them out of the pet store, which is super neat.

I just really disagree with you that having a pet in the home is an adolescent way of thinking...I have a rabbit that I have had for 5 years, a domesticated rabbit that I found hopping across a really busy high way....and I just moved her so she is living in my back yard/my house....a few years ago, she only lived in my house, i didn't have a back yard....but now she pretty much just goes where she wants to....And honestly...I have to say...I really do not like rabbit too much...I love "my" rabbit, but I probably will never adopt another one...guinea pigs on the other hand....i'll probably adopt a few more.

Obviously, you have the most honorable intentions and please don't take this the wrong way but I would think that by domesticating the rabbit you have in essence prevented its return to its natural habitat. Its the same idea as the 'tourists feeding the bears in the federal parks'. The bears eventually lose their ability to survive in the wild and in the end they are irretrievably harmed.

[missbettie]

I didn't domesticate the rabbit....It was domesticated already, and living on a highway...anyways, thats besides the point, it is living in my back yard and as happy as a clam.

Ok, so I went on my local kill shelter's website, the shelter I adopt all of my animals from....and here is what they currently have housed at their facility.

141 Dogs (most of the pitbull breed, which are extremely difficult to adopt out)
51 Cats
3 Guinea Pigs
2 Rats
1 Turtle
3 Chickens
25 Rabbits

http://portal.countyofventura.org/po...rtal/animalreg

What do YOU think we should do with all the animals currently residing at the shelters? When they are destined to be put down if no one either claims them or adopts them? I mean to me the logical explanation is to have people give them loving homes....? We put these animals into this mess, IMO its our responsibility to get them out of it.

And from my experience, this is the best "kill" shelter (oxymoron...) i've been to. The workers are very sweet and try very hard to get the animals adopted out, even going as far to call local rescue organizations to have the animals picked up. They also do a lot of promotions in my county, and do spay and neuter clincs.... it is awesome.

[goodoldrebel]

If they are accepted by a shelter then they should be cared for even long term. People have to know that just because they claim stuff like "I'm moving" or some other lame duck line,' I can't take care of it anymore' they think they can just unload the animal to a shelter. It shouldn't be that easy. Once you decide to buy an animal its your responsibility for the animal's natural life---'this should be the rule'

[missbettie]

oh of course, because that would ellimate the problem from the get go, but unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world, and most people view their pets as possessions....ok I see where you are coming from.

so do you believe that its ok to adopt the animals that have been abandoned then?

[goodoldrebel]

Of course its the most noble thing to adopt if abandoned but it shouldn't be so easy to abandon. The animal needs to be treated as more than just a temporary possession. Like I stated owners must be willing to accept responsibility for the animal's entire natural life. This would make the word adoption more powerfull when it comes to animals. There should be no choice and a very heavy monitary penalty for irresponsibly walking away from an animal either by dumping to a shelter or neglect. Dumping to a shelter as harsh as it may sound is a way for the irresponsible beings to wash their hands of any committment.

[RubyDuby]

goodoldrebel- I don't know a single vegan who has ever purchased an animal as a pet, and doubt many have abandoned their rescues either. Since this is a vegan forum the views you are expressing are mostly universal on this forum.

[Est]

goodoldrebel- I don't know a single vegan who has ever purchased an animal as a pet

Yes you do

I bought Sammy puppy from my friend (a two-times backyard breeder) and Merrick (horse) from a dealer and they fill an emotional need in me to nurture. There, I've said it! I hope the vegan police don't come for me *gasp*

[missbettie]

...Est.... Is there a reason you didn't rescue? Why are you vegan? Because to me purchasing animals is wrong when there are so many in need... I feel a bit confused... was this before you went vegan? Before you knew any different? I could only hope...Est, I really love ur posts, and hope I'm just totally confused. Lol <3

I hope I'm not out of line... But if someone was saying they were vegan but buying animals...rather than rescue... I dunno about that...I pay for my "pets" ... But its just to get them out of the rescue...for the food they ate, the shots, the spaying...the registering....

[snowflower]

I think if you truly want a pet because it is going to be your companion, and you treat it and take care of it the very best you can, then I don't see a problem with it. I do see a problem with breeding new dogs and cats to sell for a profit when there are homeless dogs being put to sleep. And some animals I don't think belong cooped up in a cage in your house, for example birds in a tiny cage or snakes in a tiny aquarium if they're just stuck in a corner and ignored. Just my opinion.

[BlackBow]

The thing about animal hoarders is, it's usually not a selfish thing. Quite the opposite. I was angry with them but after watching shows about them I have
empathy for them and can understand them completely. They want to save as many animals as the can. They ARE doing harm, and I don't support what they're doing.
They are just overwhelmed by how many animals need homes and try to help, but they do it the wrong way. Still I AM against animal hoarding. They should open
a no kill shelter or volunteer at a shelter.

[snowflower]

I can understand how much of a kind heart you must have for adopting but wasn't for example the guinea pig a sort of prisoner. why not just try to recolonize it back to its natural habitat. What about all the products that go along with pet ownership,like the prevention of of fleas and ticks. Do you not contribute in some form to the pet industry by purchasing related items such as flea shampoo etc.?

I think it depends on the person.. I had a guinea pig when I was younger, who I got from someone who couldn't care for it anymore, and I let it out and played with it ALL THE TIME... i LOVED my guinea pig..

missbettie sorry to hear about your little one... they are such sweet little animals, I'd love another one..

[BlackBow]

MissBettie I also bought a dog from a breeder before I was vegan, heck before I was vegetarian
And I am ashamed I did. I was 13 and REALLY wanted a small adult shelter dog. But my controlling
dad told me i HAD to get a big breeder dog because they will be easier to take care of. He was BEYOND wrong.
I should have just not got a dog since he basically gave me a choice: "No dog or breeder dog". And being young and
desperate I picked the dog. I trusted my dad since he was an adult but he was so wrong and I will always be upset
with him for this. My dog costed 500 dollars! And I WANTED a 50 dollar shelter dog so I don't get my dad...
I didn't get to go on my fieldtrip to new york because my dad already spent 500 bucks on a dog.
Now he's bad, he's a German Shepherd. (I wanted a small simple adult shelter dog that's 50 dollars and he gets me a
500 dollar breeder puppy-go figure) I don't know what to do with him! I love him but he is dangerous to other people.
And training him hasn't worked. I fear my parents may kill him It's a huge issue yet my dad is STILL happy we got him!
If I live to be 100 I don't think I will ever forgive myself or my dad for buying a breeder dog. Sorry, I just had to get that out
But enough about me....

Est, I'm not being mean just giving advice. Buying from a breeder was the biggest mistake I ever made
and I have so much guilt for it. Shelter dogs are so much better. I have a shelter cat and I love looking at him and knowing
I may have saved him from death. Shelter/rescue animals are the best They seem to have a aura of wisdom to them... in my case at least.
Breeder dogs are just horrible for the dog population.

[snowflower]

Blackbow, don't worry.. I think the most important thing is to give him a good life

[Est]

...Est.... Is there a reason you didn't rescue? Why are you vegan? Because to me purchasing animals is wrong when there are so many in need... I feel a bit confused... was this before you went vegan? Before you knew any different? I could only hope...Est, I really love ur posts, and hope I'm just totally confused. Lol <3

I hope I'm not out of line... But if someone was saying they were vegan but buying animals...rather than rescue... I dunno about that...I pay for my "pets" ... But its just to get them out of the rescue...for the food they ate, the shots, the spaying...the registering....

Hmmm, I probably need to explain a bit more to be able to answer your question...

Merrick was bought in 2004 (I became vegan in 2008). So the issue for a horse won't arise again until Merrick passes on... and I hope I have many, many years left with my darling boy. I can't imagine not having a horse in my life so one day I'll have to make a decision about where that horse comes from. While rescuing a horse from a shelter is a lovely idea, and certainly one I'll explore at the time (we have a local Blue Cross rescue), it doesn't always work that simply in practice. I would want a horse that was a perfect partner for me, and you can literally go to see dozens of horses and not click with any of them. I won't take on a horse that I don't feel that connection with. It's a partnership for life, so I need the right partner All I can say for now, because I've not had to think it through in depth and hope I won't have to for another 10 years or so, is that I would always be very careful where I got a horse from. I don't approve of the sort of people who churn out foals for a quick profit, and I don't approve of indiscriminate horse breeding. My preference if I had to choose right now would be shelter or an individual private seller. (I don't have a problem with people having pets or companion animals, so for me it is purely an issue of the most ethical way to acquire a new horse.)

Sam was bought after I became vegan. As I mentioned, he came from a friend who was only going to breed 2 litters from her dog and b1tch (so even if you don't approve, it's at least nothing like a commercial puppy mill). I was going to rescue a dog in a year or so, but instead I was there when Sam was born, and I saved his life. I felt such a connection with him, I couldn't leave him to go to someone else. I don't regret it at all. He is perfect in every way, and both my OH (a former dog phobic!) and I love him to bits. He is definitely our child substitute For a future dog (again, hopefully not for a long time... Sammy should have another 8-10 years) I would definitely go to a shelter... it was pure chance that I didn't this time.


In summary, I don't have a problem with buying animals but I would want to make it as ethical as possible. For me it's not black and white, it's shades of black (wrong) to grey (some vegans disapprove) to white and I want to be in the white or light grey area.

I'm sure I'd be in the grey area on many things. I buy marmite, I buy Innocent pots, if I'm going to the shops and my OH wants a milk choccie bar I add it to the list and get it... I'd go crazy if I tried to be approved of for everything so I just go with what feels right to me.

It's worth adding that I feel very strongly about people rescuing one animal (yay) but feeding it on lots of other murdered animals during its lifetime (boooo). But I recognise that this is real life and not perfect, so they have their own grey areas, and hope they will in turn be tolerant of mine... hence my vegan police comment... we could all prosecute each other for something!

[Clueless Git]

'Lo Goodoldrebel

I have touched on this one before but, I have to admit, nowhere near as eloquently as you have done.

Would be interested to know what you (or anyone else who cares to comment) think of the following ..

I have a pet cat 'Fizz' which adopted us because it's previous staff (ex-neighbours) didnt feed it properly and mostly left it hungry outside of their house.

Shortly after we had the 'do you want to take this cat back and feed it or shall we just call it ours?' conversation with them I overheard this; Their kids were asking why Fizz lived with our family now instead of with theirs. The father, not the sharpest tool in the box but not a bad man by any means, explained to them that adopting other peoples pets made people like the Stunts happy and Fizz was happier with the Stunts.

Kids didn't look that impressed untill he added that he would get brand new kitty for them to replace Fizz.

Now the kids were happy. By abandoning Fizz they had made Fizz happier, made the Stunts happier and the promise of a brand new Kitty had made them happy too.

I was left pondering that as a result of my 'idiot compassion' in rescuing Fizz that I had just unwittingly assisted in the next generation of serial pet abandoners being born.

The notion that everytime a new shelter opens or some well meaning soul takes in an abandoned pet that the tills just ring ever faster at the puppy farm has not since left my head.

[Mymblesdaughter]

Why is it shallow to take an animal into your family and love and care for it? I've had pets from the age of 3 all of them rescue, my parents also fostered many unwanted children. When our cat died 5 years ago I decided not to have another pet as I didn't want to feed it meat. Also myself and my partner were devastated when our cat died, does that make us shallow? We cared more for that cat than our friends and most of our family (we don't have children from choice)
I decided helping out at a shelter would be the thing to do, I now help socialise cats and have a mother cat and kittens that I'm fostering at home. The problem is going there has made me want another cat or two, the place is full, fortunately it's a no kill shelter but some cat have been in that prison for two years. So helping at a shelter is not the answer everyone who works there ends up taking cats home. I think it's easy to be against pet ownership in principle and in a ideal world I would be, but when you see the reality as a Vegan how can you not take on an animal that through no fault of it's own is suffering.

[RubyDuby]

Yes you do

I bought Sammy puppy from my friend (a two-times backyard breeder) and Merrick (horse) from a dealer and they fill an emotional need in me to nurture. There, I've said it! I hope the vegan police don't come for me *gasp*

Wow, I stand corrected! I guess I can't understand why a vegan would buy a pet... I work very closely with rescue and we pull dogs from shelters that have to put down 800 dogs a month... I guess I forget that a lot of people are not aware of the serious overpopulation issue!

Your situation sounds very unique. (and of course there are plenty of vegans who purchased BEFORE going vegan- that doesn't count! )

I totally agree that even our animal friends should be fed vegan when possible. They aren't wild and neither are the animals they get fed.

[RubyDuby]

.. delete... I totally misread!

[goodoldrebel]

It's hard not to contribute to the pet industry when you have animals in the house. Personally, I see the entire pet industry as bootstrapping themselves to an emotional weakness a number of humans seem to have regarding possessing pets. Adoption is very admirable yet how is the prior owner penalized for just 'throwing away' the animal because its inconvienent in their life now. In a way the shelters etc. give these irresponsible 'adolescent mentality' former owners a way out of taking responsibility for the animal that they purchased. Perhaps lincoln needed to include all beings in his emancipation proclamation.

As long as animals can be purchased as pets they will always be considered 'property' rather than beings with their own rights. Going to places like a Sea World where human emotions are manufactured and predictably reactionary is another form of animal exploitation. What a bunch of sheep the masses are sitting in the audience oohing and ahhing while being artificially entertained at the expense of the animal's freedom.

The cruelest of all aimless activities is fishing. How can these sloths just think that its okay to harm the fish because they have nothing to do with themselves except kill time. That's not a sport, its just an unsanitary activiy that injures animals.

[RubyDuby]

I know what you're saying, but what would you suggest should happen to unwanted animals?
we can't change other peoples action. We can only control our own.

You could try to change the laws... write to your representative, etc?

[Mymblesdaughter]

I agree that shelters do in some ways make it easier for people not to take responsibility for their animals. There's a similar argument about social security payments to people who keep having children. if you don't do it though it's the children that suffer. People who give their animals to a shelters are basically handing over the responsibility to someone else to find them a home or put them to sleep. If they didn't exist though more animals would just be dumped.

Apparently in Germany people are much more responsible pet owners, it's looked down on not to have your pet spayed, so they don't have that many unwanted pets, I really wish the UK was like that. The only way I can see things changing are new laws, which considering that most politicians have no interest in animal welfare is unlikely in the near future.

[goodoldrebel]

The cycle has to stop somewhere and from a Machievellien point of view, the shelters being a venue to dump off an animal after its no longer 'emotionally fulfilling' or 'inconvienent' is keeping the vicious cycle going. It shouldn't be so easy to rid one of an animal that was purchased. Let the original owner keep the animal or find someone on their own to take the animal off their hands, in other words, - let the mindless, selfish adolescent mentality owner deal with it. If they neglect the animal then they should be proscecuted. If when an animal is purchased the buyers should know that they cannot just change their mind.--They have to realize that they are stuck with the animal for the animal's natural life and that includes expensive vet bills when the animal gets ill. If this was in force then we would see the puppy mills just fade away.

[Mymblesdaughter]

Sorry RubyDuby just seen that I repeated what you said re changing the law.

[RubyDuby]

no problem. You're right!

unfortunately goodoldrebel, that's just not going to happen.

[cobweb]

I must admit that I stopped doing shelter work because I found it got very confusing. In a way I felt I was part of the perpetuation of the pet-keeping cycle. Like I was saying it was ok for people to 'own' animals because I was personally re-homing those 'rescued' animals to new 'owners'. In some cases the same animal would get recycled through the rescue system over and over which was particularly upsetting. However, by walking away from that line of work I was really just avoiding the human responsibility - leaving it to others, just like people do when they leave their animals at a shelter .

Sometimes when shelters are full, people just tie their dogs to the gates or dump boxes of small animals at the door - or turn their animals loose on the road. There is no simple answer, but i agree that people should be made a lot more accountable for their actions. It should be as serious a crime to abandon an animal as it would be to abandon a 2 year old child .

Like many others here I love every moment I have with my animal friends, but given the choice I would have to vote for banning the entire practise of pet ownership because, unfortunately, there are a hell of a lot of people who definitely should NOT be trusted with the care of any creature .

[RubyDuby]

Sometimes when shelters are full, people just tie their dogs to the gates or dump boxes of small animals at the door - or turn their animals loose on the road. There is no simple answer, but i agree that people should be made a lot more accountable for their actions. It should be as serious a crime to abandon an animal as it would be to abandon a 2 year old child .

Like many others here I love every moment I have with my animal friends, but given the choice I would have to vote for banning the entire practise of pet ownership because, unfortunately, there are a hell of a lot of people who definitely should NOT be trusted with the care of any creature .

*nods furiously*

[goodoldrebel]

Thank Ruby. I see so many abrasive breeds like the Rottweiler and Pit Bull in the shelters. Why, because the mindless adolescent little bit of a person who owned the dog just wanted to show how tough they were vicariously through their dog. This is how juvenile and dumbed down dog ownership has become. That's what the shelter is relieving-- these mindless adolescent mentalities who menaced the sidewalks of society with their abrasive dog and now reality has set in and they become tired of cleaning up the dog excrement every day, so they want to free themselves of the responsibility. When most people get a dog, its an idea that they are going to 'try' to have a pet. "Let's see how it works out" kind of mentality. It's not really a wholehearted long term committment.

[Blueberries]

As long as animals can be purchased as pets they will always be considered 'property' rather than beings with their own rights. Going to places like a Sea World where human emotions are manufactured and predictably reactionary is another form of animal exploitation. What a bunch of sheep the masses are sitting in the audience oohing and ahhing while being artificially entertained at the expense of the animal's freedom.

The cruelest of all aimless activities is fishing. How can these sloths just think that its okay to harm the fish because they have nothing to do with themselves except kill time. That's not a sport, its just an unsanitary activiy that injures animals.

I understand your frustration that people find such activities not only acceptable but amusing, but I think it's pretty safe to say that most vegans while they may have pets/companion animals, they won't go fishing or to see Shamu. I understand that the two issues are linked regarding animals' status as property but I don't think you can equate taking care of a companion animal with actively killing fish.

[Blueberries]

This is how juvenile and dumbed down dog ownership has become. That's what the shelter is relieving

There's a similar argument about social security payments to people who keep having children. if you don't do it though it's the children that suffer.

That's a pretty key issue, shelters are essentially a type of social welfare for animals. I agree that shelters can propagate a vicious cycle, as can social welfare dependency, but at the end of the day I'm glad that both systems exist even though they are open to abuse.
You must remember that not every animal that ends up in a pound or a shelter is there because their carer/owner didn't want them. There are many situations where animals can end up homeless, for example if their owner/carer passes away. The same as there are situations where you can unexpectedly end up claiming benefits if you suddenly lose your job or become ill.

[goodoldrebel]

Blueberries, I understand your concern but the buck has to stop somewhere. Most shelter animals are not there because of the owner's untimely death although that could be one of the acceptable reasons to be in a shelter. Secondly, I have seen so many young urban teenagers have children just so they can get benefits. The reality seems to be an abuse of the system whether you are letting some teeny bopper off the hock with an animal or supporting generations of single young mothers, it still perpetuates the problem. I think that people need to be responsible for their actions and be held accountable. The idea that abuse is somehow a threat if we don't bail out these individuals is unsupported. Their are laws against abuse.

[VeganZee]

Hi Goodoldrebel and welcome to the forum. I agree with most of what you say and like most others here I have a rescue dog. I love my dog and I will care for him until he dies and then I will probably get another rescue dog sometime in the future. I do agree with you that some of (if not most of) this is filling a need in me but whilst there are animals needing rehoming I don't really think that matters. It would matter if I deliberately bought a pet from a breeder but this is something I would never do. i feed my dog vegan dog food so I hope I am contributing very little to the meat pet industry and I buy the food from a vegan store online. Hope you are enjoying the forum

[Blueberries]

The idea that abuse is somehow a threat if we don't bail out these individuals is unsupported. Their are laws against abuse.

That is true but I still think I'd rather live in a world where support systems such as benefits and shelters are available. The point of these systems is to help those in need, not to keep people from facing their responsibilities. I know that's not always the way it seems. I agree that the systems seem to favourably benefit abusers and to that I agree that there should be harsher penalties for abusing welfare systems but I think that your views on the issue come across as quite right-wing.

[goodoldrebel]

Hi Goodoldrebel and welcome to the forum. I agree with most of what you say and like most others here I have a rescue dog. I love my dog and I will care for him until he dies and then I will probably get another rescue dog sometime in the future. I do agree with you that some of (if not most of) this is filling a need in me but whilst there are animals needing rehoming I don't really think that matters. It would matter if I deliberately bought a pet from a breeder but this is something I would never do. i feed my dog vegan dog food so I hope I am contributing very little to the meat pet industry and I buy the food from a vegan store online. Hope you are enjoying the forum

Thanks for your sincere response VeganZee and as long as society still has homeless animals warm hearted souls like yourself will be there.

[goodoldrebel]

That is true but I still think I'd rather live in a world where support systems such as benefits and shelters are available. The point of these systems is to help those in need, not to keep people from facing their responsibilities. I know that's not always the way it seems. I agree that the systems seem to favourably benefit abusers and to that I agree that there should be harsher penalties for abusing welfare systems but I think that your views on the issue come across as quite right-wing.

It's easy to catagorize and pigeon hole anyone into a nice neat box. I'm just myself and really do not assimilate to any political forum or venue. I don't think we need to be classified, rubber stamped and catagorized. We can still project original thought without any agenda. I do not have an agenda. I am just expressing my life's observations and enjoy a cognitive and somewhat emotional discussion on moot topics that have meaning and interest to me.

[Mymblesdaughter]

Goodoldrebel, I like to think everyone on this forum is a warm hearted soul and I think we all want to help animals to have the best life they can.

[goodoldrebel]

I truly believe that animals can live without man's intervention. In fact, I feel that man's intervention into their lives is the biggest threat to their existence. This pet idea is the same mentality that has tourists feeding the bears at the national parks and then society wonders why the bears have a hard time surviving on their own now. This forced interaction that humans impose on the animal kingdom is a selfish act. Even an inocuious act such as feeding the pigeons is this same forced type interaction we are imposing on the animals instead of just stepping back and letting them be, feeling lucky that we can observe them now and again in their natural state.

[Mymblesdaughter]

I think we all agree with you in principle we just need you to tell us how to go about it. I wouldn't feel happy watching animals starving on the streets would you?