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Thread: Vaccinations

  1. #251
    Mahk
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    Quote bradders View Post
    Looking at flouridation of water from a vaccination perspective I can see the potential for benefit, however there are many who have adverse reactions to flouride in the water and unlike chlorine it does not readily evaporate over short periods of time. .
    Incorrect. There is no such thing as "people with adverse reactions to municipally fluoridated water", the category of people simply doesn't exist and that's the single most important reason why fluoridating the water supply makes such good sense from a public health point of view; it benefits everybody and harm's no one. The scaremongers have successfully duped millions into thinking there are risks, but there simply aren't.

    [Notice, everyone, how every single rebuttal to my above statement from other forum members I am about to receive will lack any citations from any medical or dental peer-reviewed scientific or scholarly journals, even though we have been studying fluoride constantly, non-stop, for over a half century with almost 4000 individual published studies on record documenting its safety!]

    Yes, if one swallows an entire tube of fluoridated toothpaste you'll have stomach upset and if you do it continually for some time may develop some serious problems, but fluoridated water at the standardized concentration of 1 ppm has only one known drawback and that's an estimated 5-10% of people will develop very mild fluorosis, an entirely cosmetic only condition that most people won't even know they have, because it requires a dentist viewing your teeth from a distance of a just few inches to detect (small white areas on the tooth surface).

    If you drink tea, you are consuming a beverage that contains 400% the concentration of fluoride (4ppm) as American fluoridated water, BTW.

  2. #252
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    fluoride and chlorine cause my gums to bleed and consequently mouth ulcers too (in mouthwash and toothpaste, even the pink water at the dentist causes me problems) at least with chlorine in the water it evaporates. Switching from standard mouthwash to a aspirin gargle and from toothpaste to salt and water has reduced massively the number of ulcers I have, my gums no longer bleed (unless the dentist forgets) and my teeth are actually whiter than they were before. Many doctors agree that there is no one size fits all dosage (I will find sources when I have time) and so fluoridating water through the tap is not an appropriate course of action. If my area started fluoridating the water I would have to start buying bottled water which on the whole is less safe and more harmful to the environment.
    If I sink to the bottom I can run to the shore.

  3. #253
    cvC
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    Quote Mahk View Post
    There is no such thing as "people with adverse reactions to fluoridated water"
    I wonder how you explain this then?

    Three dialysis patients died from fluoride poisoning at the University of Chicago Hospital when equipment meant to filter out fluoride from the water supply malfunctioned.
    There are also more stories of death and injury caused by fluoride at this link, including what it says is a reference to an Associated Press article about Elk dying a decade earlier than would otherwise be expected after drinking the naturally highly fluoridated water in Yellowstone Park.

    http://searchwarp.com/swa370917.htm

    Quote Mahk View Post
    Notice, everyone, how every single rebuttal to my above statement from other forum members I am about to receive will lack any citations from any medical or dental peer-reviewed scientific or scholarly journals
    Something I found after a bit of googling:

    The National Kidney Foundation withdrew its support of water fluoridation citing the 2006 National Research Council (NRC) report indicating that kidney patients are more susceptible to fluoride’s bone and teeth-damaging effects forcing the American Dental Association (ADA) to admit on its website that fluoride is a concern to kidney patients
    http://www.inspire.com/groups/us-new...ation-support/

    The link below is to an article from a British organisation called the Institute of Science in Society and where various authoritative evidence against fluoridation is given, including, for example, that:

    Five major epidemiological studies from France, the UK and the US show higher rates of hip fractures in fluoridated regions
    http://www.i-sis.org.uk/NotoFluoridation.php

    Quote Mahk View Post
    we have been studying fluoride constantly, non-stop, for over a half century with almost 4000 individual studies on record documenting its safety!
    I'd be interested if you could describe in detail just one study that supposedly documents the safety of fluoride. I am aware that, according to Dr. Hubert Arnold, a statistician from the University of California, the early fluoridation trials are:

    especially rich in fallacies, improper design, invalid use of statistical methods, omissions of contrary data, and just plain muddleheadedness and hebetude
    http://www.fluoridealert.org/50-reasons.htm

    Quote Mahk View Post
    fluoridated water at the standardized concentration of 1 ppm has only one known drawback and that's an estimated 5-10% of people will develop very mild fluorosis, an entirely cosmetic only condition that most people won't even know they have, because it requires a dentist viewing your teeth from a distance of a just few inches to detect (small white areas on the tooth surface).
    England's department of health has apparently presented a review stating that 48% of children in "optimium" fluoridated areas have dental fluorosis, considerably more than the 5-10% you mention.

    http://www.i-sis.org.uk/NotoFluoridation.php

    There are pictures of dental fluorosis at the link below, which can be more than "small white areas on the tooth surface" and which it quite obviously does not require "a dentist viewing your teeth from a distance of a just few inches to detect". What does fluoride does to the soft tissue of the rest of the body when it does this to the protective enamel of teeth?

    http://www.fluoridealert.org/health/...s/biology.html

    Quote bradders View Post
    If my area started fluoridating the water I would have to start buying bottled water
    The link below is to a worrying article from last year that begins:

    Drinking bottled water should be made as unfashionable as smoking, according to a government adviser.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/ear...mmoral%27.html

  4. #254
    Mahk
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    Bradders, toothpastes and special fluoride rinses one gets at the dentist are another matter entirely, some people have sensitivities to those, I was talking about fluoridated drinking water. It will have no effect on your gums or mouth ulcer situation you get from toothpaste and/or dental fluoride rinses which have concentrations thousands of times higher than standard fluoridate drinking water. If your community were to switch to fluoridated water there would be no reason for you to have to buy bottled water. If on the odd chance your dentist actually told you this, which I doubt, he is either very ill informed or was simply trying to relax your fears, because he could sense your trepidation that you thought you would be in a difficult situation if your community were to change, so he was explaining alternatives simply to pacify your psychological fears.

    Drinking tea, which as I mentioned has 400% the concentration of fluoride as fluoridated water, has no ill effects on your mouth, right? [Unless of course hot liquids, in general, are also triggers to your mouth issues, in which case I'd be pointing out that iced tea wasn't a trigger.]

  5. #255
    my army bradders's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    as I say I would rather not drink bottled water but given I have a known sensitivity to fluoride there's no way I'm drinking fluoridated water.
    If I sink to the bottom I can run to the shore.

  6. #256
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    Iced tea is yucky and yes I do get a mild reaction to some teas. I tend to drink Assam tea which has a very low level of fluoride indeed when compared with other types. It should still be my choice whether to have fluoride in the water I drink. If other people want it let them have fluoride drops but not force it on others.
    If I sink to the bottom I can run to the shore.

  7. #257
    Mahk
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    Quote Mahk View Post
    [Notice, everyone, how every single rebuttal to my above statement from other forum members I am about to receive will lack any citations from any medical or dental peer-reviewed scientific or scholarly journals, even though we have been studying fluoride constantly, non-stop, for over a half century with almost 4000 individual published studies on record documenting its safety!]
    So far I am 100% correct (regarding cvC's post). All we have are links to different peoples' delusional misinterpretations, half truths, or third party hearsay telling us what some other sources supposedly says. [Like we're supposed to buy that. Oh brother] Letting us read the actual scholarly papers directly, however, is a big no no for the anti fluoride scaremonger organizations, so they never provide direct citations for us to go examine the original source material ourselves, otherwise we might learn the truth about what the original paper actually says, and not their distortion(s) of it.

    CvC, any chance you could move your post to the fluoride thread instead? This thread is about vaccinations.

  8. #258
    cvC
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    Quote Mahk View Post
    So far I am 100% correct (regarding cvC's post)
    Perhaps people will decide for themselves about that.

    CvC, any chance you could move your post to the fluoride thread instead? This thread is about vaccinations.
    My previous post is a response to one of yours about fluoride in this thread. Do you really think I should be answering it in a different one. I had referred here to your failure to come up with the "overwhelming evidence" you'd claimed concerning fluoride in the relevant thread. I did this in response to your nasty harangue of another member for not producing something that you'd demanded here and which he hadn't even claimed to exist in the first place. It was therefore relevant, as I've tried to explain twice already.

  9. #259
    Mahk
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    Quote bradders View Post
    It should still be my choice whether to have fluoride in the water I drink. If other people want it let them have fluoride drops but not force it on others.
    Logically I would assume you feel the same way about chlorine which is routinely added to public drinking water too, right?

  10. #260
    Mahk
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    Quote cvC View Post
    Perhaps people will decide for themselves about that.
    Gee, maybe I missed it. Which one of your seven URL's was a citation or direct link to a medical or dental peer-reviewed scientific or scholarly journal?

    By my count, zero.

  11. #261
    my army bradders's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    Quote Mahk View Post
    Logically I would assume you feel the same way about chlorine which is routinely added to public drinking water too, right?
    chlorine evaporates so it is easy to get rid of the chlorine by getting a jug of water from the tap and putting it in the fridge for a while before drinking and it is necessary to disinfect the supply due to inevitable contamination in the distribution system. If it were not a necessary part of water distribution then I would say that it shouldn't be included.
    If I sink to the bottom I can run to the shore.

  12. #262
    cvC
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    Quote bradders View Post
    chlorine evaporates so it is easy to get rid of the chlorine by getting a jug of water from the tap and putting it in the fridge for a while before drinking
    I don't know much about chlorine, but does it really make much of a difference to the chlorine content in tap water to let it evaporate for a while? I don't personally feel like reading through them at the moment, but there are a couple of links below that I've bookmarked about chlorine. The second is to a Daily Telegraph article in which it states at the beginning that:

    Babies born in areas where drinking water is heavily disinfected with chlorine are at double the risk of heart problems, cleft palate or major brain defects, according to a new study.
    http://www.orthomolecular.org/librar...n02-p089.shtml
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...-problems.html

    Quote bradders View Post
    if it were not a necessary part of water distribution then I would say that it shouldn't be included.
    I again won't claim to know much about this, but think that ozonating the water might be one alternative. It's years now since I've been to a swimming pool and one big reason for which is chlorine, but here is a worldwide directory of pools I found that either have no or reduced chlorine and in some of which the water is ozonated:

    http://piscinasana.wikidot.com/

    Ozone is also incidentally being used to treat teeth and which you can read more about here:

    http://www.dentalozone.co.uk/healozone.html

  13. #263
    my army bradders's Avatar
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    chlorine genuinely evaporates quite quickly as it is a suspension in water. It varies according to temperature, pressure and volume but the chlorine in a wide jug of 1l of water will evaporate after around 1-3hours while a lie cleaning keg filled with water containing more concentrated chlorine may take as much as 12 hours. Getting a half pint glass of water from the tap and leaving it to stand for about half an hour will remove much of the chlorine. But hardly anyone does this anyway mind you few enough people know that there is chlorine in the water to begin with.
    Anyway, this is a vaccination thread so I'll say no more on the subject of water chlorination.
    If I sink to the bottom I can run to the shore.

  14. #264
    Mahk
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    Quote bradders View Post
    If it were not a necessary part of water distribution then I would say that it shouldn't be included.
    It's not. Many, if not the majority, of the world's nations add no chlorine to their water supply.

    Although you may leave your water in an open container for several hours prior to use [], almost nobody else does, and certainly the makers of beer, reconstituted fruit juice, soft drinks, beverages in general, foods in tins with water, soup, tea and coffee away from your home, etc are just straight water from the tap, chlorine and all. Even many brands of bottled water were recently exposed to be nothing more than city tap water.

    Your several hour evaporation routine you mention also does nothing for the chlorine you absorb in the hot steamy shower, which is said to be greater than what you drink! [you are inhaling the fumes, I think.]

    So, net result, shouldn't the vocal minority that opposes it have the right to have this toxic poisonous chemical* removed from their water supply, Bradders? Or perhaps is there a more important overriding interest? Should we ask the scientific community or just go by whoever yells the loudest and has the best scaremongering?
    ---
    [Addressing the main thread, not just Bradders now.]

    Fluorine is chlorine is vaccine.

    They are all good.

    In science, there is no "debate" on them, we know what saves lives and contributes to overall public health and we know what kills lives and harms overall public health. Scientists study these concepts constantly and modify them, accordingly, as need be. Are there some rare cases where a person might have an allergic reaction to one of them, maybe even die? Sure, but that doesn't mean we pull the product from the market entirely, folks, when for 99.99% of the general population it saves millions of lives, diseases, and infections yearly. What's better? We save one person from a deadly chlorine allergic reaction or we keep 10,000 people from catching typhoid from drinking non-chlorinated water, many of which will die?

    This concept of having to concede to the science-phobic people and allowing them to harm the general public health because of their superstitious ways, annoys me and endangers my family and my community, IMO.

    We are all entitled to an opinion, you all just heard mine.

    *[Chlorine gas was used by the Germans in WWI and was one of the earlier forms of chemical warfare.]

  15. #265
    my army bradders's Avatar
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    Quote Mahk View Post
    It's not. Many, if not the majority, of the world's nations add no chlorine to their water supply.
    and their water supply is not really safe drinking water and those who drink it risk many water borne infections as chlorine is needed to keep the water sanitary on it's journey from treatment to tap. In British cities it is not quite as needed as elsewhere due to reduced dependence on water towers. In Ireland, much of the Mediterranean, the US and many rural areas water disinfection is vital as a result of high dependence on external water towers that are not completely sealed or regularly inspected and maintained and lengthy water distribution systems.
    In many parts of Ireland there is no chlorine in the water, our old water scheme just used lime to treat the water. This is not without it's problems. Firstly the water was condemned for human consumption due to high levels of microbes when we became subject to health inspection and the situation continues. The ridiculously high levels of lime (mineral not fruit) required to treat water causes heavy sedimentation, corrosion, breakdown of pumping systems and domestic appliances including heating systems.
    In the meantime people were drinking the water believing it to be clean because it tasted better than town water and it was clear while in many other areas it was brown. Many of those areas that had brown water incidentally had safe water largely due to the use of chlorine in the water.

    There are many stages along the route of the water supply where any microbes or parasites have the opportunity to multiply to dangerous levels including in tap aerators. But the chlorine in the water does a pretty good job of dealing with that.

    During the brewing process the majority of chlorine is removed and the same goes for many beverages and food stuffs. Interestingly fruit and vegetables are washed with water with a higher concentration of chlorine than pool water. Again chlorine will on the whole evaporate from the surface before consumption anyway leaving nothing more than a harmless salt.

    Would I prefer that there was no chlorine added? Sure but if the public drinking water is to be truly safe right the way to the glass then it is unavoidable.

    Now I really will say no more on the subject.
    If I sink to the bottom I can run to the shore.

  16. #266

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    Public vaccination programs are essential to maintain the health of everyone. Without them, preventable epidemic disease would spread like wildfire. In vaccinating yourself and your children, you're protecting not only our own and their health but also the health of others.

  17. #267
    cvC
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    Can anyone tell me why this page in has become really wide and, even without my bookmarks up, I have to move it accross to read a line? Perhaps there's an innocent explanation, but there is information here that I can believe certain members don't want people to be aware of and I'm just wondering if someone has done something to make it more difficult to access.

  18. #268
    Mahk
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    Quote bradders View Post
    Again chlorine will on the whole evaporate from the surface before consumption anyway leaving nothing more than a harmless salt.

    Would I prefer that there was no chlorine added? Sure but if the public drinking water is to be truly safe right the way to the glass then it is unavoidable.
    Just a harmless salt you say? Did you know:

    "The drinking of chlorinated water has finally been officially linked to an increased incidence of colon cancer. An epidemiologist at Oak Ridge Associated Universities completed a study of colon cancer victims and non-cancer patients and concluded that the drinking of chlorinated water for 15 years or more was conducive to a high rate of colon cancer."

    Health Freedom News, January/February 1987

    "Long-term drinking of chlorinated water appears to increase a person's risk of developing bladder cancer as much as 80%," according to a study published in the Journal of the National Cancer Institute. Some 45,000 Americans are diagnosed every year with bladder cancer.

    St. Paul Dispatch & Pioneer Press, December 17, 1987

    "Although concentrations of these carcinogens are low...it is precisely these low levels which cancer scientists believe are responsible for the majority of human cancers in the United States." Report Issued By The Environmental Defense Fund

    "Chlorine itself is not believed to be the problem. Scientists suspect that the actual cause of the bladder cancers is a group of chemicals that form as result of reactions between the chlorine and natural substances and pollutants in the water." (organic matter such as leaves and twigs.)

    St. Paul Dispatch & Pioneer Press, December 17, 1987

    "Greenpeace reports have found chlorine-based compounds to be the most common toxic and persistent pollutants in the Great Lakes."

    "The chemical element chlorine is a corrosive, poisonous, greenish-yellow gas that has a suffocating odor and is 2 1/2 times heavier than air. Chlorine belongs to the group of elements called halogens. The halogens combine with metals to form compounds called halides. Chlorine is manufactured commercially by running an electric current through salt water. This process produces free chlorine, hydrogen, and sodium hydroxide. Chlorine is changed to its liquid form by compressing the gas, the resulting liquid is then shipped. Liquid chlorine is mixed into drinking water and swimming pools to destroy bacteria.

    Until recently, concerns about drinking water focused on eliminating pathogens. The chlorine used to reduce the risk of infectious disease may account for a substantial portion of the cancer risk associated with drinking water."

    Source: Pure Earth

    There are any number of ways to make water safe without the use of toxic, poisonous chlorine and as I mentioned most of the world doesn't use chlorine so there is no reason we have to. Boiling, filtration, ionization, reverse osmosis, UV exposure are but a few of the ways. Surely, just like fluoride, we have no right to force this dangerous and unnecessary ingredient into the water supplies of those who don't want it.

    Look what happens to your stomach if you drink water containing chlorine right after drinking Coke:
    [YOUTUBE]gwIgF24l1Ik[/YOUTUBE]


  19. #269
    cvC
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    I think another tactic they might be using is to seek to always have the last word.

  20. #270

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    Quote cvC View Post
    Can anyone tell me why this page in has become really wide and, even without my bookmarks up, I have to move it accross to read a line? Perhaps there's an innocent explanation, but there is information here that I can believe certain members don't want people to be aware of and I'm just wondering if someone has done something to make it more difficult to access.
    That sounds pretty paranoid. That happens all the time on VF and other forum sites, at least for me. To suggest a sinister motive, seems a bit strange and out of the blue, unfounded.

    EDIT: The page wasn't wide at all for me prior to posting, but then after I posted it was really wide. Just an observation I'm throwing out.
    Last edited by Quantum Mechanic; Jan 22nd, 2009 at 06:15 PM. Reason: to add an observation I just made

  21. #271
    cvC
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    Quote Quantum Mechanic View Post
    That sounds pretty paranoid. That happens all the time on VF and other forum sites, at least for me. To suggest a sinister motive, seems a bit strange and out of the blue, unfounded.
    Yes, I anticipated that someone might accuse me of being paranoid and did accept in my post that there might be an innocent explanation for what I'd described. There is information here that is very damning of water fluoridation and, on the previous page, vaccinations, which both affect a lot of people, and I don't consider it unfounded to wonder if there are those who are seeking to obscure it. I've also seen pages at other sites become really wide and thought it might be something to do with putting large photo's up, but that hasn't happened here and so I was just wondering what had.

    Quote Quantum Mechanic View Post
    EDIT: The page wasn't wide at all for me prior to posting, but then after I posted it was really wide. Just an observation I'm throwing out.
    I posted several times on this page yesterday and without it widening for me that I recall.

  22. #272
    my army bradders's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    the page widened because of the very long line of '------------------------------------' in Mahk's post
    If I sink to the bottom I can run to the shore.

  23. #273
    cvC
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    Quote bradders View Post
    the page widened because of the very long line of '------------------------------------' in Mahk's post
    Thanks for explaining, bradders.

  24. #274
    Mahk
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    Which post? I'll fix it.

    Everything looks fine to me because I have a 1920 by 1200 pixel, very large monitor, so I can't easily tell. It all fits just fine for me.

    edit to add: Assuming it was post #264, I just cut the -----down to half. Sorry folks.
    Everything OK now?


    [Note to self: Communist plot to take over world using the "------" trick has failed. Must try inserting secret ingredients into
    vaccines, to induce mind control, instead.]

  25. #275
    my army bradders's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    that fixed it, mines a petty low res minitor
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  26. #276

    Default Re: Vaccinations

    I still have to scroll a bit, but I'm sure that's because I have it magnified so much - if I de-magnify (?) it by one notch, then it all fits, so I can at least read the text in all one line, and I can usually know who is writing based upon reading the text without scrolling to look at the username.

  27. #277
    Mahk
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    Ok I have now reduced it to just three dashes.
    ---
    Everyone at the full magnification/ screen resolution they want?

    Quote cvC View Post
    I think another tactic they might be using is to seek to always have the last word.
    Let's hear who you mean exactly by "they", please. Why don't you expose "them" for what they really are, that is.

  28. #278
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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    chlorine in water = makes me want to vomit
    Anyone who is fine with chlorine in water should come and smell my water.

  29. #279
    Mahk
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    You do seem to have way too much where you live Sniv., sorry, for reasons that are unclear to me. Where I live there is chlorine in the water but it is totally undetectable to me by smell or taste. [I actually just tried some straight from the tap to verify that this is still the case, because I use a water filter mostly to remove other contaminants and have for years]. I do know the taste/smell you mean though, NY city water for example I don't like [when I tried it twenty years ago, at least]. I also hate the smell of swimming pools so I picture it must be like that.

    Have you ever thought to have it tested? It is the job of the government to keep water safe so maybe there is a division that will do it for you for free? Here are two possible leads with contact numbers:

    http://www.deq.louisiana.gov/portal/...9/Default.aspx

    http://www.deq.louisiana.gov/portal/...0/Default.aspx

    There are also private companies that you send a small vile of your water to and they will professionally analyze it for all sorts of things. There is a small fee though. Unfortunately the legit water purification industry is over run by twice the number snake oil fake/sham/sketchy outfits, more so than any other industry I can think of, actually. I would think the key to identifying the honest water analysis people from the scammers is that they have certification through the government and they don't want to sell you a product to go along with their analysis.

    "Hi, I want my water analyzed and then shown the right product to filter out the problem. Can you help?"

    "Sorry, we only do professional analysis; you are on your own as to how to deal with it. Can't help you there."

    BINGO! You just found yourself a legit outfit.

  30. #280
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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    Thanks, I'll take a look at those links when I get some time tomorrow. I buy water at a windmill now, but I'm waiting for my gravity filter to come in the mail.

  31. #281
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    I was HIGHLY against vaccines BEFORE I even went vegan. My daughter is 28 months old and has not been vaccinated since 6 months of age. I regret her previous vaccinations and wish I studied vaccines before I vaccinated her to begin with. I am very anti vaccine and not because I am vegan.
    Last edited by gyp5ym00n; May 20th, 2009 at 04:29 AM. Reason: grammar

  32. #282
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    I could not see this link after a quick glance over this thread but this is the most helpful site I have ever found clear and concise data of what is in vaccines.

    http://www.informedchoice.info/
    http://www.informedchoice.info/cocktail.html
    Go confidently in the direction of your dreams

  33. #283

    Default Re: Vaccinations

    I checked out that link firejuggler, and while it does compile a lot of the different components that go into making vaccines and their ingredients together, it is compiled in a misleading way.

    Such as, aluminum is an abundant element, and is in many of the foods we eat (and one would consume much more aluminum in a day than by taking a vaccine). It is not the presence of it in the environment that shows that it is safe (obviously, or we would consider lead or mercury to be fine to play around with), but that it is very common, and the dose required to produce toxicity is higher than what is ingested or injected. There have been specific studies on the excretion rates of aluminum, and it is excreted rather quickly.

    The mercury that used to be in many of the vaccines, and that is now pretty much relegated to the flu vaccines (though there is a thimerosal-free version) is ethyl-mercury. This form is excreted much faster than the methyl-mercury (the kind that is in fish), which is one reason why it would be absurd to apply the standards of how much is safe to consume (based on how much people would be eating, acquiring methyl-mercury from fish) to the ethyl-mercury in vaccines. However, this is mostly moot since almost all the vaccines are thimerosal-free since the government became pressured due to the concern that, if people thought an ingredient might be dangerous, that too few people would accept the vaccines and herd immunity would fall (after all, there are infants too young to vaccinate for certain diseases, immunocompromised people such as those with PID, HIV, and people in cancer treatment, as well as the elderly, and vaccines, like any other medical intervention, cannot promise 100% efficacy in those who are vaccinated).

    With regard to aborted fetal tissue, while I personally have a lot of reservations about abortion, keep in mind that this is in reference to tissue from a fetus from a cell line that's been kept going on for well over 30 or 40 years, so it's not like they are harvesting new fetuses for each new batch of vaccines, and the tissues do not end up in the vaccines themselves. I know most people are pro-choice here, and I am too, but few people really like the idea of abortion I think.

    It also lists formaldehyde, which is true, but due to some vocal people speaking out against vaccines, this might register an unwarranted fear response. Aside from the formaldehyde emitted from plastics and auto exhaust, the body's metabolism naturally produces small amounts of formaldehyde - and the amount used in vaccines to deactivate the live virus indeed is a small amount.

    The site also lists neomycin, polymyxin B, and streptomycin, which are antibiotics and used as anti-bacterial agents in making the vaccines. Used topically or as orally administered antibiotics for a bacterial infection, the dose for streptomycin can be high, around 40 mg/kg a day or as much as 1 gram per day. Polymyxin B, for instance, has been used to treat gram-negative organisms such as psudomonas aeruginosa and has efficacy of 88% in clearing the infection.

    "Large single and/or cumulative polymyxin doses have been associated with nephrotoxicity (7, 14, 18). In our study, older age was the only predictor of the risk of RF. Daily and total cumulative doses of polymyxin B, the baseline creatinine level, gender, race or ethnicity, and underlying illnesses present were not significantly associated with the development of RF."

    Polymyxin B Nephrotoxicity and Efficacy against Nosocomial Infections Caused by Multiresistant Gram-Negative Bacteria

    These were very high doses, whereas a typical dose for anti-bacterial purposes in vaccines would be about 0.025 mg (a one time dose for each vaccine), as with neomycin.

    Out of curiosity, gyp5ym00n, what are your reasons for being against vaccines?

  34. #284
    Vegan Pride<3 Guate_Vegan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    Man, I love this thread. I don't really know much about this so reading all of your posts is making me learn so much. Thanks <3
    "Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better."
    - Samuel Beckett

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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    The information below comes from the webite of a British Health Insurance company:

    http://hcd2.bupa.co.uk/fact_sheets/html/mmr.html



    "The MMR vaccine is an injection that prevents you from catching the following three diseases.
    • Measles - this can cause ear infections, pneumonia, fits and encephalitis (inflammation of the brain). Sometimes it can be fatal.
    • Mumps - this can cause meningitis, which can result in deafness. It may cause inflammation of the pancreas, leading to pain, nausea and vomiting. In boys it can damage the testicles and cause infertility.
    • Rubella - this is also known as German measles and is usually a minor illness. However, it's harmful to pregnant women. If you become infected during the first 10 weeks of pregnancy, it's very likely to cause problems in your unborn baby. These include heart damage, blindness, deafness and brain damage. It can also lead to miscarriage. If you become infected with rubella between 10 and 16 weeks, your baby may still be harmed but the risk is smaller."
    Any parent who chooses not to vaccinate their child is behaving irresonsibly by putting them at a needless risk. Why would anyone want to take the chance of their child developing these symptoms and their complications when it can be avoided? Any parent who decides not to have their child vaccinated is acting negligently just as Jehovah's Witness parents act negligently when they refuse to allow their children to receive blood transfusions.

  36. #286
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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    ....and they get made to anyway in this country.
    My main concern is that they are nit produced veganically. This is not a fault with vaccination but with the current production methods. I now have even more need than before for vaccinations that can help protect me from illnesses that are now more dangerous to me. I have taken the decision that despite the problems of production (egg whites and mandatory animal testing) I will take any and all medications I need and that includes vaccines. In the meantime I will complain constantly at every level about the current situation (telling the companies that I will actually not get treated as a result etc) whilst being careful of European industrial protection legislation that mean that any loss of business to animal testing companies resulting from any kind of campaign can be recovered from the campaigners.
    That means that in August I will be getting my flu vaccine at the pharmacy, from September I'll be having my boosters for many things and that when I get ill I'll take the medication I need and I'll take the meds I'm given that will prevent illness later on. I also have taken the decision that because the only factor 50+ photostable sunscreen that is efective that I can get in this country has been tested on animals (classed as an over the counter drug here) and as I really do need one that strong I will buy that sunscreen.
    I realize that it is a very difficult decision to make but I personally feel that there is no real choice and that we need our vaccines. What we have to do is campaign effectively and legally to change the way they are produced.
    If I sink to the bottom I can run to the shore.

  37. #287

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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    Quote bradders View Post
    ....and they get made to anyway in this country.
    My main concern is that they are nit produced veganically. This is not a fault with vaccination but with the current production methods. I now have even more need than before for vaccinations that can help protect me from illnesses that are now more dangerous to me. I have taken the decision that despite the problems of production (egg whites and mandatory animal testing) I will take any and all medications I need and that includes vaccines. In the meantime I will complain constantly at every level about the current situation (telling the companies that I will actually not get treated as a result etc) whilst being careful of European industrial protection legislation that mean that any loss of business to animal testing companies resulting from any kind of campaign can be recovered from the campaigners.
    That means that in August I will be getting my flu vaccine at the pharmacy, from September I'll be having my boosters for many things and that when I get ill I'll take the medication I need and I'll take the meds I'm given that will prevent illness later on. I also have taken the decision that because the only factor 50+ photostable sunscreen that is efective that I can get in this country has been tested on animals (classed as an over the counter drug here) and as I really do need one that strong I will buy that sunscreen.
    I realize that it is a very difficult decision to make but I personally feel that there is no real choice and that we need our vaccines. What we have to do is campaign effectively and legally to change the way they are produced.
    If you need to take medication then you should take it. If we say that being vegan means having to eschew modern medicine, then we aren't going to get many people on board. If someone is in severe pain or they need drugs to treat a serious condition, they are not going to stop taking them. The best thing is to put pressure on companies to change their research methods.

    I am also going to have to use a regular sun screen because I can't find one above factor 30 that's vegan and need one that's factor 50 or above my skin is very sensitive to light.

  38. #288

    Default Re: Vaccinations

    Quote bradders View Post
    I realize that it is a very difficult decision to make but I personally feel that there is no real choice and that we need our vaccines. What we have to do is campaign effectively and legally to change the way they are produced.
    I agree very much. I really don't like that the flu vaccine, for instance, is grown using chicken egg, but until we can get things to change, it just doesn't make sense to me to let so many people get sick and die because of that bit of animal use that, as of now, is not going away, by asking that people not take a 50-80% effective vaccine (especially if you are in contact with people who are older or have health conditions, or are immunosuppressed, and since even when the vaccine doesn't work -for flu or other illnesses- often it results in a milder form of the illness, which can mean the difference between life and death or between two weeks off work and one). It's less effective in the elderly and immunocompromised (closer to 50-60% than to 70-80%), primarily due to the fact that the strains at the end of one flu season are different from the beginning of the flu season due to mutations, and so while predictions are usually quite good, there are times when the vaccine is less effective than others.

    The best thing I can see to do is to prevent as much suffering as possible in the present, while advocating for the reduction/elimination of animal use in the future (such as using a different growth medium and finding/using alternative testing methods).

  39. #289

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    Quote wuggy View Post
    I was wondering whether other Vegans decide to have their children and/or pets - and themselves(!) vaccinated?
    Obviously the vaccines are produced by large pharmaceutical companies, tested on animals and contain animal ingredients. Many also think they pose a health threat.
    I had my son vaccinated, but later than the usual times, when he was a bit older than normally recommended. I insisted that he did not have the 'live' whooping cough vaccine - my doctor had to send off to France for the other type.
    I was bullied into having him vaccinated as neither the local playgroups or schools were happy to take him without. He had a severe reaction to his MMR jab, and it has set up a type of very itchy excema on his arm which, apparently, will never go now. My doctor says this is 'very rare', but if I could go back, I would have refused the vaccinations.
    What do you think?
    depending on which country you live in , where shots are required by law ,from the American vegan Scoiaty you can get after you have paid the small membership fee, can get a vaccination extemption letter , me and my mother both have one for our children as recently as four year ago .
    person to contact is Fay , i forget her last name .
    http://www.americanvegan.org/
    Now is a unque time in the evolution of mankind when you can make a choice what kind of creature you want to be BE THEE PRETTY OR BE THEE BEAST.

  40. #290
    [LMNOP] ellaminnowpea's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    I was given the flu shot without my consent when I was hospitalized a couple weeks ago. I was unconscious... Didn't know they could do that!! This swine flu scare is out of control!
    “I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning how to sail my ship.” ~ Alcott

  41. #291
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    ^Are you considered a "healthcare worker" or in one of the other high risk groups? Hope your are well, LMNOP.
    ---

    Myth: “The federal government is running a mandatory vaccination campaign.”

    Truth: The federal government’s vaccination program for H1N1 flu is VOLUNTARY. Some hospitals and localities are requiring that health care workers get vaccinated for the flu, but that is a local decision. HHS and the CDC have included health care workers as one of our top priority groups to receive the vaccine, and several places across the country began offering H1N1 vaccination to health care workers this* week. *[This quote is several weeks old]

    The petition on a few selected internet sites protesting the federal government’s “mandatory” vaccination campaign is simply false in its claims. Vaccination is highly recommended as a protective measure against the flu, but is absolutely voluntary.


    -US Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) in conjunction with The Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)

    Assistant US Surgeon General Dr. Anne Schuchat on "The Doctors":

    [YOUTUBE]BahxMChMoUs[/YOUTUBE]

  42. #292
    [LMNOP] ellaminnowpea's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    I am in the "high risk" group. And will be working in healthcare.

    But I would assume they'd wait until I was conscious to inform me that I should get one...? Not just do it. Granted, I slipped in and out of consciousness for a few days, so maybe it's possible I agreed to it? Still... I find that strange.

    EDIT: And thanks, I am doing better.
    “I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning how to sail my ship.” ~ Alcott

  43. #293

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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    Quote ellaminnowpea View Post
    I was given the flu shot without my consent when I was hospitalized a couple weeks ago. I was unconscious... Didn't know they could do that!! This swine flu scare is out of control!
    In that situation I would sue for everything I could. Unless you signed something coming in to the hospital, vaccinating you is illegal, plain and simple.

    Vaccines are NOT vegan, and they go against my personal beliefs in almost every way. So for me it would be of the utmost importance to bring it to the public just how serious a fault they made.
    mama to Ryan (7), AJ (6), Nate (3), Maia (1), all born at home.

  44. #294
    my army bradders's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    you don't need to sign to agree to anything but more serious procedures eg MRI, lumbar puncture, operations, certain drugs that carry higher than normal risks. If, in medical opinion your would benefit from treatment including vaccination and you are not capable of agreeing or disagreeing (eg are not conscious) then they have the legal capacity to provide that treatment and even an obligation in many cases.
    If there is a threat that a virus could spread rapidly around a hospital, damaging the health of and even resulting in the deaths of vulnerable patients, they have an available vaccine that is likely to prevent this happening then they have a medical duty to give this vaccine to all staff and patients. Only those who refuse and have sufficient capability to make that decision to refuse would not be given it.

    It is no different to using biocides that aren't vegan in hospital and treatment of patients who are not conscious. I have had several procedures carried out on me while not capable of agreeing/ objecting and am very glad that they did as I could have suffered far more medium and long term damage had they not done and I could even have died.

    For me the veganity of vaccines is no different to that of any other medication. I agree with the principle of vaccination, prevention being better than cure. I don't agree with the method but we are for the moment stuck with that for the time being. Using the amnesty international approach and applying it here would be more effective if more did it and eventually we would probably have medication that really is truly vegan. In the meantime I've had me seasonal vaccine and tomorrow will be having my swine flu vaccine, I am up to date with tetanus and diphtheria, meningitis, hepatitis, mmr, bcg, rabies and others, when I'm in pain I take painkillers, when I have a bacterial infection I take antibiotics or microlides and a viral infection I take appropriate antivirals. Why be in pain more than I have to and why risk my life more than I need to?
    Last edited by bradders; Nov 16th, 2009 at 07:15 PM. Reason: typo
    If I sink to the bottom I can run to the shore.

  45. #295

  46. #296

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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    Quote bradders View Post
    you don't need to sign to agree to anything but more serious procedures eg MRI, lumbar puncture, operations, certain drugs that carry higher than normal risks. If, in medical opinion your would benefit from treatment including vaccination and you are not capable of agreeing or disagreeing (eg are not conscious) then they have the legal capacity to provide that treatment and even an obligation in many cases.
    If there is a threat that a virus could spread rapidly around a hospital, damaging the health of and even resulting in the deaths of vulnerable patients, they have an available vaccine that is likely to prevent this happening then they have a medical duty to give this vaccine to all staff and patients. Only those who refuse and have sufficient capability to make that decision to refuse would not be given it.

    It is no different to using biocides that aren't vegan in hospital and treatment of patients who are not conscious. I have had several procedures carried out on me while not capable of agreeing/ objecting and am very glad that they did as I could have suffered far more medium and long term damage had they not done and I could even have died.

    For me the veganity of vaccines is no different to that of any other medication. I agree with the principle of vaccination, prevention being better than cure. I don't agree with the method but we are for the moment stuck with that for the time being. Using the amnesty international approach and applying it here would be more effective if more did it and eventually we would probably have medication that really is truly vegan. In the meantime I've had me seasonal vaccine and tomorrow will be having my swine flu vaccine, I am up to date with tetanus and diphtheria, meningitis, hepatitis, mmr, bcg, malaria and others, when I'm in pain I take painkillers, when I have a bacterial infection I take antibiotics or microlides and a viral infection I take appropriate antivirals. Why be in pain more than I have to and why risk my life more than I need to?
    I agree that we should take medications that we need, including vaccines. Vaccination has helped to save million of human lives and continues to do so today. If we tell people that being vegan means they have to refuse medical treatment, then we'll never convince enough people to join us to create a critical mass of indivduals who can make a real difference to the animals.

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