View Poll Results: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

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Thread: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

  1. #51
    Bad Buddhist Clueless Git's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cherry_Bmbshell View Post
    But only allowing abortions for medical reasons is a dangerous slippery slope.
    Allowing abortions at all is a dangerous slippery slope Cherry.

    We are pretty much at the bottom of that slippery slope now. That being in as much as that allowing abortions for medical reasons has now slid into an unquestionable 'right' to arbitarily slaughter absolutely any unborn human for absolutely any reason at all.

    According to Wiki the death toll on that side of the slippery slope, globaly, is 43 million human lives per year.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  2. #52
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote SlackAlice View Post
    My dilemma is that I fit into ALL of these catergories.... I am an anti -abortionist. AND I have got a geniune life experience of abortion . AND I am constantly being silenced and pushed into the background when I try to relay it.

    It never fails to amaze and sadden me that one of the most relevant voices in the great abortion debate ...the voice of women who have had abortions and as a result become anti-abortionists is perpetually silenced or discounted.

    I could have easily posted the exact same thing myself. Interesting...........

  3. #53
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Certainly no one is being silenced. I just don't find it particularly relevant or poignant in discussing abortion (debate is over women have won) that someone has changed their minds after experiencing abortion. That a personal moral/ethical/spiritual notion should blanket the rest of humanity is IMHO egotistical. The 'I know best' mentality.

    Well, I don't know best but I know when to butt out of other people's lives.

    How about some other voices? How about the women who wish they had aborted? More of them out there then we care to count. I find that far worse than the loss of a might-have-been child. This has been shown to have a caused a significant dip in crime rates and other social ills: the drop in unwanted births after Roe v Wade.

    And my personal experience? I would have gladly had the abortion I scheduled at 12 weeks. The waiting time resulted in my miscarrying at home alone. I did the guilt thing for awhile: why wouldn't I lie in bed for 6mo to try carrying it to term? But I did not want or love that lima bean size embryo at 20 yrs old.

    Years later with my next miscarriage, I recognized the same ill feelings of failure. Guilt and regret were a product of the tumultuous hormone change. I got over it quicker that time.

    The world is a better place when women have control over their bodies. I won't stand idly by and let coat-hangers become a means of last resort; that I promise.
    the only animal ingredient in my food is cat hair

  4. #54
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote pat sommer View Post
    That a personal moral/ethical/spiritual notion should blanket the rest of humanity is IMHO egotistical. The 'I know best' mentality.
    Is veganism more than a personal moral/ethical/spiritual notion do you think?
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  5. #55
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    I won't stand idly by and let coat-hangers become a means of last resort; that I promise.
    That's the clincher for me - abortions are going to happen; legal, safe ones are preferable.

    The parallel between (early) abortion and killing animals for food is a false one as far as I'm concerned. My reasons for being vegan are to do with avoiding suffering rather than value attributed to potential lives. Late abortions are more problematic, which is one of the reasons why I strongly support easy access to early abortion for people who feel they must have one for whatever reason.

  6. #56
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Well said Harpy.

    Veganism is a way of life; chosen not imposed.

    I equally oppose intimidation to pressure a woman into abortion.

    Lastly, I highly respect any work done that reduces the need for abortion: genetic counseling, embryo selection, less toxic medication, reversible sterility (also for men) and especially work to keep women and girls safe.
    the only animal ingredient in my food is cat hair

  7. #57
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    Is veganism more than a personal moral/ethical/spiritual notion do you think?
    How can it be? Would you force someone to be vegan against their will? We've only got our personal moral compass. It's taken me a long time to come to terms with that, when I see eating/harming animals as very wrong and the majority of other people clearly have a different perspective, but in the end I can only be responsible for my own life decisions.
    "If you don't have a song to sing you're okay, you know how to get along humming" Waltz (better than fine) - Fiona Apple

  8. #58
    Kimberlily1983
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Yes, you can be vegan without being pro-life, or as I prefer to call it, anti-choice. I consider myself pro-choice. My own feelings on abortion are rather complicated: I consider myself an antinatalist, and so on the one hand I think aborting unborn babies, particularly if done quite early, is a good thing in that it spares them life in this world. On the other hand, taking anyone's life is not something I'm comfortable with, and so I'm not sure if I could personally have an abortion, except if I was pregnant due to rape or something (for some reason I think that might be easier). For me, what it comes down to is, should the state have a right to force me or anyone else to go through with a pregnancy? I believe that no, they should not; I believe in full reproductive rights for all.

  9. #59
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Wow, if we lived in an ideal world sure pro life would be great. I had an abortion after I found out my intended fiancee was sleeping with three other women and had no intention of staying with me or supporting our child. This was around 15 years ago and never a day goes past without me thinking about my child and what might have been.
    However I cannot say I regret it and I am ever thankful I live in a country where it is possible to have this choice. The worse possible nightmare for me is to be forced to have a child I don't want.
    I wanted my first child but I didn't want any more and am now sterilised to prevent any more pregnancies and to pevent any more horrible decisions.
    I don't think it's particularly vegan to have an abortion no so I guess that makes me a hypocrite, however at least I was killing one of my own race which possibly is my right. I couldn't do that to any animal.
    Silent but deadly :p

  10. #60
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    P.S I voted no, I don't think it's possible to be a vegan and not be pro life but yet I still did what I did anyway and I'd do it again if i hadn't taken measures not to let that situation happen again, but yet I'm still a vegan. i guess life isn't simple and can't be put into categories.
    Silent but deadly :p

  11. #61
    Kimberlily1983
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Hemlock View Post
    P.S I voted no, I don't think it's possible to be a vegan and not be pro life but yet I still did what I did anyway and I'd do it again if i hadn't taken measures not to let that situation happen again, but yet I'm still a vegan. i guess life isn't simple and can't be put into categories.
    Interesting way of putting it. I voted yes but I think we think somewhat similarly about this issue (with the one important difference of my being an antinatalist). I think there is something wrong about taking a fetus's life, but at the same time support our right to choose. Where I differ from you (probably) is that I think people are better off never being born, and so to some extent I think babies are probably better off being aborted (particularly if this can be done painlessly, etc.). That doesn't do away with my extreme discomfort at the taking away of life, though.

    I think I'm generally quite morally consistent, but this particular issue (the wrongness of taking life vs. the possibility that we're better off not being alive) is a philosophical dilemma I find very disturbing and would like to solve.

  12. #62
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Kimberlily1983 View Post
    I think I'm generally quite morally consistent, but this particular issue (the wrongness of taking life vs. the possibility that we're better off not being alive) is a philosophical dilemma I find very disturbing and would like to solve.
    The discomfort is that which comes with hypocracy (not meant offensively that, btw) Kimberlily ...

    Two diametricaly opposing moralities there:

    1. That under certain circumstances I/we/ours/us have the right to decide if life or death is better for they/them.

    2. That under NO circumstances what-so-chuffin'-ever-don't-even-be-a'thinking-of going-there-buster-thank-you-very-much do they/them ever have the right to decide if life or death is better for I/we/ours/us.

    Try and put those two puppies in the same basket and it's a guarantee they's gonna fight.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  13. #63
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Hi Cupid sorry I saw you started replying to some of my posts but I have exams and a load of stress so not got the time or energy to go into it just now but thanks for doing so and just letting you know I've seen it and am not ignoring you

  14. #64
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote kikifromscotland View Post
    Hi Cupid sorry I saw you started replying to some of my posts but I have exams and a load of stress so not got the time or energy to go into it just now but thanks for doing so and just letting you know I've seen it and am not ignoring you
    'Lo Kiki

    Your priorities do you credit. This will wait. Your exams will not.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  15. #65
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    The guinea pig lady i had when i was a child once gave birth to eight babies. Immediately they were born, she bit the three biggest of them in the neck to kill them, then raised the other five lovingly. Of course i was deeply shocked and cried. My mum explained to me that this was natural and animal mothers did this all the time, when they realised it was beyond their power to raise all their offspring. - Without a doubt my guinea pig was vegan by nature.

    I have never had an abortion, and i am against abortion. But what i am also against are people to judge unrightfully. What i mean is this: If a mother had an abortion and says: It is wrong because i have felt it is wrong, i have gone through this myself - i believe she has a right to express herself and should be heard. If a mother who is raising her children alone on little income, she has a right to say that it can be done and being abandoned by the father is no reason to abort a child. But when for example the former german family minister who has many children BUT who also has a huge income and is protected in a secure family set-up, comes up and says: "Look at me, it is so easy, no woman needs an abortion!" i feel like slapping her in the face because she does not know how much despair is out there.

    Among the animals, there are species where mothers raise their children without the father, and others where the two are naturally meant to work closely together in raising them. The human species is definitely meant to both-parent-child-raise.

    What i am trying to say (and i feel it might be easy to get me totally wrong, but i hope for the best): My guinea pig killed her babies out of necessity, and it was natural. As long as there are still human mothers in this world who are unvoluntarily raising children on their own, and as long as they have to struggle hard to bring them up, there can be no talk of us living in an environment where the necessity to abort might not be rightfully felt by some women. It is not those women who are to blame.
    It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society. (J. Krishnamurti)

  16. #66
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Can you be vegan without also being pro-life? Of course you can. There is absolutely no contradiction in my mind.

  17. #67
    Kimberlily1983
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    'Lo Kiki

    Your priorities do you credit. This will wait. Your exams will not.
    Kiki, Cupid, I'm actually in the same boat, with university stuff to attend to, and so I don't have much time to think about this right now.

    But I agree, often this discomfort is or can be a sign of hypocrisy... I don't think I'm being hypocritical. But I'm not sure I have all the answers, the justifications down yet. This is perhaps a more complex issue than people typically realize... and I haven't quite figured out exactly where I stand, though I have a general idea.

    I guess part of my response would be that mothers-to-be are in a special position of deciding both what's best for their unborn and for themselves. These can be at odds, or one and the same thing. In general, I don't think that I have the right to put other beings to death, whether they be autonomous or in the wombs of their mothers. The exception might be euthanasia in extreme cases, which is done for the good of that being (and is really just our guess that that's what's in their interest). I do think I have the right to make such judgments about those beings who are in my own body, and dependent on me for survival. It's not the government who should be deciding what's best for me or my baby, it's me.

  18. #68
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    I always try to say what I think without trying to romanticise it, so here is my rationale...

    I am not pro-life and I don't have a problem with killing.

    Plants are alive and when we cut down trees, mow our lawns and harvest vegetables such as potatoes, turnips, carrots etc... we are killing them. We are taking life. This is indisputable. When we ingest medicine that kills the viruses and bacteria which inhabit our bodies, we are taking life. I don't have a problem with this.

    I do have a problem with the killing of grown animals. What's the difference? Carrots (and the other lifeforms above) don't have a mental life. They are not self-aware, so they are incapable of having INTERESTS and desires and thus they cannot be benefited or HARMED. Killing them cannot be wrong. Nor can it be said that an injustice is done when we damage rocks or disperse clouds.

    Until the unborn reach a specific stage of development (prior to which they are effectively brain-dead) the same reasoning applies. That foetuses look like tiny human beings after a time means nothing, as what is important is what is going on "under the hood". Up until a certain point, they are just clumps of cells no different to vegetables. For this reason, abortion for any reason prior to the unborn actually becoming cognisant is a non-issue.

    On the other hand, grown animals have a mental life and like human beings they "have a life of their own that is of importance to them, apart from their utility to us" (Tom Regan).

    The shades of grey in this discussion surround the conflict between the interests of a sufficiently developed unborn child and its mother. IMO, once the unborn are old enough (late-term or beyond) the interests which they have by then attained may not simply be over-ridden by the mother in every case. Unless the mother's life is in danger (in which case her rights trump those of the unborn due to her superior cognisance and capacity for suffering, though it's HER choice), then an abortion may be wrong. At this point, a simple lifestyle choice on the part of the mother does not cut it as a justification (the abortion could have been performed sooner). The only remaining justification is the preference-respecting euthanasia of a severely-mentally retarded baby whose suffering may be worse later in life than if simply killed sooner - this would depend on an appeal to the interests and desires of the unborn, not to those of anyone else. We must rely on the advice of medical experts to determine these things.

  19. #69
    Bad Buddhist Clueless Git's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    'Lo Kimberlily

    Firstly don't let this be distracing you from your studies and secondly I'm a farmer today ...

    Quote Kimberlily1983 View Post
    I guess part of my response would be that mothers-to-be are in a special position of deciding both what's best for their unborn and for themselves ...
    You reason that you and your kind (adult humans) are in a special position that grants you the right to decide life or death for those in your care.

    I reason that me and my kind (farmers) are in a special position that grants us the same right over those in our care.
    ... I do think I have the right to make such judgments about those beings who are in my own body, and dependent on me for survival. It's not the government who should be deciding what's best for me or my baby, it's me.
    As an adult you regard your body as your sole jurisdiction.

    As a farmer I regard my land as my sole jurisdiction.

    We both agree that our jurisdiction gives us the right, if we choose to execise it, to take the lives of those (other than our own kinds: Adult humans) who's survival depends upon it.

    If we have any disagreement from there it can only be that one of us does not accept the claim to jurisdiction of the other.

    As a farmer I figure that anyone who refutes my right to do with mere animals what they themselves want to do with humans must be a bit of an a-hole.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  20. #70
    Bad Buddhist Clueless Git's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote fiver View Post
    Until the unborn reach a specific stage of development (prior to which they are effectively brain-dead) the same reasoning applies.
    'Lo fiver

    Sometimes, for the purposes of debate, it is essential to agree definitions of key words. I think the key word in that is 'specific'?

    When I hear the word 'specific' I take it to mean: Accurate, quantifiable, measurable ..

    In terms of time I would regard 'specific' as meaning accurate to the smallest unit of measure (nano second?) ..

    In terms of biological development I would regard 'specific' as being summat akin to a cell count that establishes having reached, say, 10 billions cells as being quantifiably different to 10 billion and one cells ..

    What definition of the word 'specific' are you are using?
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  21. #71
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Cupid,

    By 'specific stage of development' I mean the point at which the unborn possess those physical attributes which are the foundation for even the most rudimentary thought and self awareness - a brain, a nervous system, the connections which allow for the coordination of bodily systems. A conservative estimate of this stage that errs on the side of caution is 20 weeks.

    See this article: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/19/bo...l?pagewanted=1

    "Even though the fetus is now developing areas that will become specific sections of the brain, not until the end of week 5 and into week 6 (usually around forty to forty-three days) does the first electrical brain activity begin to occur. This activity, however, is not coherent activity of the kind that underlies human consciousness, or even the coherent activity seen in a shrimp's nervous system. Just as neural activity is present in clinically brain-dead patients, early neural activity consists of unorganized neuron firing of a primitive kind. Neuronal activity by itself does not represent integrated behavior."
    "By week 13 the fetus has begun to move. Around this time the corpus callosum, the massive collection of fibers (the axons of neurons) that allow for communication between the hemispheres, begins to develop, forming the infrastructure for the major part of the cross talk between the two sides of the brain. Yet the fetus is not a sentient, self-aware organism at this point; it is more like a sea slug, a writhing, reflex-bound hunk of sensory-motor processes that does not respond to anything in a directed, purposeful way. Laying down the infrastructure for a mature brain and possessing a mature brain are two very different states of being."
    "Synapses-the points where two neurons, the basic building blocks of the nervous system, come together to interact-form in large numbers during the seventeenth and following weeks, allowing for communication between individual neurons. Synaptic activity underlies all brain functions. Synaptic growth does not skyrocket until around postconception day 200 (week 28). Nonetheless, at around week 23 the fetus can survive outside the womb, with medical support; also around this time the fetus can respond to aversive stimuli....This is the same age at which the Supreme Court has ruled that the fetus becomes protected from abortion."
    Obviously, we cannot pinpoint an exact moment at which an individual animal goes from being unaware to aware, since growth (and the development of consciousness) is a cumulative process. What we can say is that: (a) some animals are undoubtedly above the indefinable line that demarcates self awareness and other mental faculties, and that (b) some animals are undoubtedly below that same line.

  22. #72
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote fiver View Post
    Obviously, we cannot pinpoint an exact moment at which an individual animal goes from being unaware to aware, since growth (and the development of consciousness) is a cumulative process.
    Hmmm, not very 'specific' at all then ..

    More out of curiosity than anything else: How does one measure the difference in awareness twix something like a shrimp and an unborn human being?

    What is the unit in which awareness is measured?
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  23. #73
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    'Lo Kimberlily

    Firstly don't let this be distracing you from your studies and secondly I'm a farmer today ...


    You reason that you and your kind (adult humans) are in a special position that grants you the right to decide life or death for those in your care.

    I reason that me and my kind (farmers) are in a special position that grants us the same right over those in our care.

    As an adult you regard your body as your sole jurisdiction.

    As a farmer I regard my land as my sole jurisdiction.

    We both agree that our jurisdiction gives us the right, if we choose to execise it, to take the lives of those (other than our own kinds: Adult humans) who's survival depends upon it.

    If we have any disagreement from there it can only be that one of us does not accept the claim to jurisdiction of the other.

    As a farmer I figure that anyone who refutes my right to do with mere animals what they themselves want to do with humans must be a bit of an a-hole.
    Seriously? You are comparing a woman's body to a farmer's land? So woman were only put on this earth to produce children? Really? So pretty much my lot in life is to be a FARM and to cultivate a baby. huh. Good to know. I better get right on that.

    I'm Pro-life AND Pro-choice. no one should be able to make decisions about my body, but on the other hand I would never have an abortion. but i definately understand why some people would....
    "i'm rejecting my reflection, cause i hate the way it judges me."

  24. #74
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote missbettie View Post
    Seriously? You are comparing a woman's body to a farmer's land?
    Try and stay in context missbettie.

    I am playing the role of farmer (you know I'm not really a farmer - right?) in the above post in order to see if the 'it's my personal property/territory/jurisdiction/waddyaliketocallit so have the right kill anything in/on it' argument is a hi-jackable one. It is.

    If you want to play the game you have to find an argument that justifies killing unborn humans that cannot be equaly well be used by a meat eater to justify his/her killing of animals.

    My personal understanding is that no argument that can be used to justify the killing human beings but cannot be used to justify the killing of animals can possibly exist, btw.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  25. #75

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Johnstuff View Post
    I take it 'pro life' here means 'never accepting of abortions'?

    I kind of think these phrases are rediculous, I'm pro life and pro choice. I haven't applied either statment to abortion.
    Is anyone really anti life or anti choice?

    Makes it sound like anyone who ever considers abortion must hate all life and anyone against abortion must be against choice.
    This ^^^

    You am teh SMARTZ.

  26. #76
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    Try and stay in context missbettie.

    I am playing the role of farmer (you know I'm not really a farmer - right?) in the above post in order to see if the 'it's my personal property/territory/jurisdiction/waddyaliketocallit so have the right kill anything in/on it' argument is a hi-jackable one. It

    If you want to play the game you have to find an argument that justifies killing unborn animals that cannot be equaly well be used by a meat eater to justify his/her killing of animals.

    My personal understanding is that no argument that can be used to justify the killing human beings but cannot be used to justify the killing of animals can possibly exist, btw.
    Wow. I apologize, i didn't know how big of an idiot that i actually am. How can I be soooo stupid?

    It’s way different than killing unborn animals. First of all, it’s the woman’s body as compared to an animal, the animal has no choice in the matter, because it would be the HUMAN controlling the animal. Killing the unborn animal. The Mother of the unborn animal, would have no choice in the matter at all. If the Mother of the unborn animal had the thought that hey, she didn't want to contribute to the over population of pets, and it was her humans fault that she was pregnant in the first place because her stupid human didn't spay her, and the mother of the unborn animal decided you know what I’m going to go get a puppy abortion so i don't doom my puppies to the pound and then death, then i would be all for it. But Pets and Animals can't choose. But people can. Second of all, i think it depends on where you personally believe that life starts. I don't believe that a embryo is a human life, or a life at all. If it can't feel pain, and doesn't have thought then I don't understand how it is bad if the embryo is aborted, if it benefited the life of the mother and the embryo itself. But I think it really boils down to where YOU believe human life begins. I have a friend that believes that human life begins at conception. and there is no way anyone would ever be able to change her mind, so I don't try. but it’s not what i believe. Which is why I’m pro-choice. up to an extent.

    So the question is, is a "potential" life, really a life? Are you really killing something that is potentially a life, if it isn't technically living? By living i mean exactly what i said before, thought process and physically feeling pain.
    "i'm rejecting my reflection, cause i hate the way it judges me."

  27. #77
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    "Hmmm, not very 'specific' at all then .."
    What? We know how long it takes for the brain, central nervous system and synapses to develop. Did you read the whole article and my post, or did you just look for any kind of ambiguity? The only ambiguity occurs AFTER the development of those physical attributes.

    "More out of curiosity than anything else: How does one measure the difference in awareness twix something like a shrimp and an unborn human being?

    What is the unit in which awareness is measured?"
    If you had read the article, you would know that they measure electrical brain and neural activity. They use the same method (and other tests) to diagnose brain-death in grown patients.

    "...I have a perceptual reaction to the Carnegie developmental stages of a fetus: the image of Stage 23, when the fetus is approximately eight weeks old, suggests a small human being. Until that stage, it is difficult to tell the difference between a pig embryo and a human embryo. But then-bingo-up pops the beginning shape of the human head, and it looks unmistakably like one of us. Again, this is around eight weeks, more than two thirds into the first trimester. I am reacting to a sentiment that wells up in me, a perceptual moment that is stark, defining, and real. And yet, at the level of neuroscientific knowledge, it could easily be argued that my view is nonsensical. The brain at Carnegie Stage 23, which has slowly been developing from roughly the fifteenth day, is hardly a brain that could sustain any serious mental life. If a grown adult had suffered massive brain damage, reducing the brain to this level of development, the patient would be considered brain dead and a candidate for organ donation."
    "My personal understanding is that no argument that can be used to justify the killing human beings but cannot be used to justify the killing of animals can possibly exist, btw."
    Well, do us a favour - don't let your existing conclusions affect your assessment of scientific fact, ok?

    More out of curiosity than anything else: are you religious Cupid?

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote missbettie View Post
    [FONT=Trebuchet MS]Wow. I apologize ...
    I need to apologise ..

    I said unborn animals where I meant to say unborn humans. I have corrected that now.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote fiver View Post
    What? We know how long it takes for the brain, central nervous system and synapses to develop. If you had read the article, you would know that they measure electrical brain and neural activity. They use the same method (and other tests) to diagnose brain-death in grown patients.
    I read what you posted fiver ..

    The unit of measure was never mentioned once.

    Well, do us a favour - don't let your existing conclusions affect your assessment of scientific fact, ok?
    I don't Fiver ...

    Scientific fact is that a human fetus can be of no other species than human (and is thus animal) and is definitely alive.

    More out of curiosity than anything else: are you religious Cupid?
    I would imagine the purpose of that question was to see if my personal position is religiously motivated?

    I'm buddhist.

    The easiest to follow insight into the buddhist view on abortion was actualy expressed by Mother Theresa though ...
    "But I feel that the greatest destroyer of peace today is abortion, because it is a war against the child - a direct killing of the innocent child - murder by the mother herself. And if we accept that a mother can kill even her own child, how can we tell other people not to kill one another? How do we persuade a woman not to have an abortion? As always, we must persuade her with love, and we remind ourselves that love means to be willing to give until it hurts. Jesus gave even his life to love us. So the mother who is thinking of abortion, should be helped to love - that is, to give until it hurts her plans, or her free time, to respect the life of her child. The father of that child, whoever he is, must also give until it hurts. By abortion, the mother does not learn to love, but kills even her own child to solve her problems. And by abortion, the father is told that he does not have to take any responsibility at all for the child he has brought into the world. That father is likely to put other women into the same trouble. So abortion just leads to more abortion. Any country that accepts abortion is not teaching the people to love, but to use any violence to get what they want. That is why the greatest destroyer of love and peace is abortion. "
    I do know that makes absolutely no sense at all to anyone who wants abortion on demand though.

    To me that is no different to how even the most powerfull and empiricaly demonstrable arguments in favour of veganism make absolutely no sense to those who want to eat meat.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    To me that is no different to how even the most powerfull and empiricaly demonstrable arguments in favour of veganism make absolutely no sense to those who want to eat meat.
    Interesting point. To me, one important difference relates to beliefs about pain and suffering.

    Meat-eaters tend to accept that animals feel pain and so on, but deny that this pain matters, argue that the pain is less important than other considerations, assert that current farming methods do not involve pain... - in this case there is a considerable level of agreement about the proposition that animals feel pain.

    On the other hand, those who advocate access to legal abortion do not generally accept that foetuses in the early stage of development feel pain (fiver has cited some of the scientific evidence that they don't) - in this case there is no acceptance of the proposition that foetuses feel pain.

    There probably is some room for debate about exactly if/when a developing foetus starts to feel pain, but to me that is mainly an argument for not allowing laws and procedures to delay abortions for people who have decided early in a pregnancy that they must have one.

    In my experience, though, those who oppose access to legal abortion do not generally rely much on the idea that it causes pain - they rely more on claims about the intrinsic importance of potential lives, which (along with rhetorical considerations) is IMO one reason they often use the terms "child" or "baby" instead of "foetus", as in your quote from Mother Theresa. But again, those who disagree with them often reject the premise that potential lives are intrinsically important, or disagree about how important they are relative to other considerations.

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    Scientific fact is that a human fetus can be of no other species than human (and is thus animal) and is definitely alive.

    I
    I really did not want to get involved... but here it goes...

    Cupid, it is very difficult for many women to see that men have such strong views on abortion because to a large degree this is not a debate where men should play the leading role. It is women's bodies that are being debated (and of course the clusters of cells/foetuses/unborn humans inside them).

    To call the early stages of an embryo an unborn human is IMHO using emotional language. Here is a definition of embryo:

    "An embryo is a multicellular diploid eukaryote in its earliest stage of development, from the time of first cell division"

    Everytime a MAN masturbates, he kills millions of half embryos or if you want to be emotional, millions of half "unborn humans". Men should be VERY concerned about that half of the unborn human and women about the other half... this is not to say I do not want to listen to any men's opinion, just that I think it is a bit rich for them to try to influence legislation on our bodies by calling a cluster of cells an "unborn human" when they kill millions of potential "unborn humans" throughout their lives.

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote fiver View Post
    At this point, a simple lifestyle choice on the part of the mother does not cut it as a justification (the abortion could have been performed sooner)
    While that's probably true enough in most cases that might come up, we can think of exceptions. How about if a poor, disabled mother-to-be is left by her husband when she is 7 months pregnant? She has no one else to turn to. She's forced to find a new home, and all she can afford on her welfare money is a crappy apartment in a dangerous neighborhood. Or perhaps she's homeless now. Don't you think in these situations the option to abort should be available?

    Ideally, I'd like a society where no one was ever driven to make hard choices like this, but even in a perfect society, I still think women should never be forced to complete their pregnancies by any outside authority, that women should have full reproductive rights.

    ~

    Okay, now, I see this conversation has really kicked off! I don't have time to go through all the comments - I'm just taking a half hour or so to go through messages - but I just wanted to say, like missbettie, that I don't agree with your comparison, Cupid. A farmer could make the argument that you did, but we could easily counter him. A farmer, or any other animal abuser, should be compared to a child abuser, not a woman who chooses abortion. The animals and the child are autonomous, individual, sentient beings, who should have recognized rights. They can easily be taken out of that environment and put somewhere safer, without violating any person's privacy or interfering excessively in their lives. We think interfering in someone's business life or family life is justified if abuse is taking place. When a being is inside someone's body, there's no way you can interfere in the matter without intruding very seriously on that woman's bodily integrity and reproductive rights.

    You should check out Gary Francione's article on the subject. I think it's called 'Abortion and Animal Rights'.

    I don't consider this to be as straight-forward as the question of animal rights, BTW, where it's very obvious what's right or wrong with respect to animal exploitation. Abortion is more difficult. Like missbettie, I don't think I could ever have an abortion myself, except in very difficult circumstances. I don't know, and I hope I never have to find out / have to make this choice. But yeah, essentially what it comes down to is, do you think the conflict of rights (between the mother and the potential rights of the fetus) should be decided by the state (whose policies can be sexist) or should it be determined by the woman who's body and potential child it is? I think it's the latter who should be deciding.

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Manzana View Post
    I really did not want to get involved... but here it goes...
    Ut-oh ...
    Cupid, it is very difficult for many women to see that men have such strong views on abortion because to a large degree this is not a debate where men should play the leading role. It is women's bodies that are being debated (and of course the clusters of cells/foetuses/unborn humans inside them).
    As it happens I agree very much that men should not play the leading role in abortion debate.

    Idealy the defence of the unborn should be entirely female territory.
    To call the early stages of an embryo an unborn human is IMHO using emotional language.
    Yes, I understand that certain entirely factual statements evoke emotion.

    An entirely factual statement it is though. An embryo is; a) human b) unborn
    Everytime a MAN masturbates, he kills millions of half embryos or if you want to be emotional millions of half "unborn humans". ...
    That would be in the same way that a non vegan kills half an unborn chicken every time he/she eats an unfertilised egg?
    All done in the best possible taste ...

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Kimberlily1983 View Post
    You should check out Gary Francione's article on the subject. I think it's called 'Abortion and Animal Rights'.
    I will look that up and have a read of it Kimberlily
    All done in the best possible taste ...

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    An entirely factual statement it is though. An embryo is; a) human b) unborn
    Yeah, I'd have to say I agree with you on this one, Cupid. I would say that the embryo's being human is irrelevant, though, and am more worried about whether the embryo qualifies for personhood. Up to a point at least, the embryo certainly is not. But even after that, my own view is still that the conflict is to be decided by the woman, not by the state.

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    a human embryo is a human embryo not a human

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    That would be in the same way that a non vegan kills half an unborn chicken every time he/she eats an unfertilised egg?
    Yes, that is as accurate as saying that an egg and a sperm = a human because it does not.

  38. #88
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    I know I left contributing to this thread on 17 November but I just want to confirm that I'm still watching from the sidelines. Maybe there'll be a request soon from Cupid for the loan of a spade so that he can dig a bigger hole to drop himself in?

    [Give up Cupid, you can't win this one!]

    leedsveglol

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    I love me some LV.
    "i'm rejecting my reflection, cause i hate the way it judges me."

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote leedsveg View Post
    I know I left contributing to this thread on 17 November but I just want to confirm that I'm still watching from the sidelines. Maybe there'll be a request soon from Cupid for the loan of a spade so that he can dig a bigger hole to drop himself in?

    [Give up Cupid, you can't win this one!]

    leedsveglol
    No heckling from the thrupenny stalls - purleeze!
    All done in the best possible taste ...

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Kimberlily1983 View Post
    Yeah, I'd have to say I agree with you on this one, Cupid. I would say that the embryo's being human is irrelevant, though, and am more worried about whether the embryo qualifies for personhood. Up to a point at least, the embryo certainly is not.
    Agreed that an embryo cannot possibly qualify for personhood.

    BUT!

    Trying really hard to keep within the context of finding an argument that does not also justify the killing of animals: Neither do chickens, pigs, sheep and cows.

    But even after that, my own view is still that the conflict is to be decided by the woman, not by the state.
    Serious question for you Kimberlily ...

    What level of importance do you place on women who have to decide that conflict not being in any way misled as to what it is they have the choice to do?
    All done in the best possible taste ...

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Manzana View Post
    a human embryo is a human embryo not a human
    Oh ...

    What species is a human embryo then?
    All done in the best possible taste ...

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote harpy View Post
    Interesting point. To me, one important difference relates to beliefs about pain and suffering.

    Meat-eaters tend to accept that animals feel pain and so on, but deny that this pain matters, argue that the pain is less important than other considerations, assert that current farming methods do not involve pain... - in this case there is a considerable level of agreement about the proposition that animals feel pain.

    On the other hand, those who advocate access to legal abortion do not generally accept that foetuses in the early stage of development feel pain (fiver has cited some of the scientific evidence that they don't) - in this case there is no acceptance of the proposition that foetuses feel pain.

    There probably is some room for debate about exactly if/when a developing foetus starts to feel pain, but to me that is mainly an argument for not allowing laws and procedures to delay abortions for people who have decided early in a pregnancy that they must have one.

    In my experience, though, those who oppose access to legal abortion do not generally rely much on the idea that it causes pain - they rely more on claims about the intrinsic importance of potential lives, which (along with rhetorical considerations) is IMO one reason they often use the terms "child" or "baby" instead of "foetus", as in your quote from Mother Theresa. But again, those who disagree with them often reject the premise that potential lives are intrinsically important, or disagree about how important they are relative to other considerations.
    A very intelligent and well reasoned post if I may say so Harpy.

    One small point: Access to legal abortions, as with access to legal triple by-pass heart surgery, does not require access purely on demand.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  44. #94
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    This thread is a complete waste of everyone's time. Cupid created this thread for the following reason, that is clearly stated in his original post:

    "Is there any ARGUMENT a vegan could use to justify abortion of unborn humans on demand that no MEAT EATER could use as an argument to justify animal slaughter on demand?"
    Other people have provided various arguments and he has done nothing but scrutinise and criticise these using COUNTER ARGUMENTS and with reference to the TRUTH, LOGIC and CONSISTENCY of the arguments and their implications for both grown animals and unborn humans.

    Cupid has now acknowledged that he is not simply the 'devil's advocate' (meat eater), we are now arguing with a buddhist meat eater (LOL) who is not swayed by powerful and empirically demonstrable arguments.

    He established the conventions of the discussion himself and adhered to them up until the point that the arguments started to undermine his not-simply-a-meat-eater-who-can-be-swayed-with-reasoned-argument pro-life agenda. This is no different to Christians attempting to use scientific facts and arguments to lend credibility to and push their views, and then falling back on faith-based assertions when the going gets tough.

    "I do know that makes absolutely no sense at all to anyone who wants abortion on demand though.

    To me that is no different to how even the most powerfull and empiricaly demonstrable arguments in favour of veganism make absolutely no sense to those who want to eat meat."
    It is quite different, because on one hand there are (a) people whose beliefs and behaviour are informed by strong arguments and who reconsider the former when they encounter superior ideas, and (b) people whose uninformed, nonsensical & contradictory arguments are determined by their preferred beliefs and behaviour and who stubbornly refuse to change their mind. You can't reason with these people.

    I don't dismiss Mother Theresa because 'I want abortion on demand' (do I!?) and her arguments 'oppose something that I want'. I dismiss her because she makes numerous assertions and she doesn't back them up with supporting arguments. She fails to address the point that in order to be wronged, a living thing must be self-aware and have interests and conscious desires that can be thwarted.

    'Conflicted meat-eaters deny that meat-animals have the capacity to suffer' - http://www.kent.ac.uk/news/stories/m...ers-study/2010

    "Dr Loughnan also explained that, broadly speaking, their study has shown that when there is a conflict between their preferred way of thinking and their preferred way of acting, it is their thoughts and moral standards that people abandon first – rather than changing their behaviour."
    "Agreed that an embryo cannot possibly qualify for personhood.

    BUT!

    Trying really hard to keep within the context of finding an argument that does not also justify the killing of animals: Neither do chickens, pigs, sheep and cows."
    Give it up, Cupid. "Person" and "human" are synonyms in common parlance, but "personhood" has a completely different meaning in philosophy. Grown animals do possess personhood.

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    Oh ...

    What species is a human embryo then?
    A human hand is "human" but not a human.
    A human sperm is "human" but not a human
    A human embryo is equally "human" but not a human

    Let's not confuse the part and the whole.

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    a buddhist meat eater
    What? Who? Why?
    I've had a brief look at this thread and have a hard time finding out which topic it is that actually is being discussed. Apart from the arguments on both sides of the abortion debate, what exactly is it - that has to do with eating meat - that is being discussed? And CS - what are your own views on this? Have you stated anything that justifies calling you a 'buddhist meat eater'? What are the answers to your own questions? Is your main point that you are 'against abortion? Is it that you think defending abortion equals justifying 'eating-meat-on-demand'? Any concrete answer would be highly appreciated. Just don't make your answer as long as my answers often are.

    I kind of think these phrases are ridiculous
    Agree. Nobody is against choice or against life. IMO, 'pro life' and pro choice' are slogans that has been converted into terms to describe someones view on abortion. Having said that, it's hard to find other short definitions for being 'pro' abortion, because I don't think anyone really would suggest that abortion is 'great', for example.

    Quote Johnstuff View Post
    Infact looking at the definition of vegan I'm surpprised that it says "humans, animals and the environment" IMO it should simply state "animals and the environment". Humans are animals if 'animal' is used it includes human by definition.
    In common human language, the word animal usually means non-human animal. And I'm quite sure that if an alien would visit this planet, he would see - quite clearly - that there are so many differences between human and non-human animals that he would probably give humans a special word anyway. It's also easier to type 'animal' than 'non-human animal'. I don't mind that most people distinguish between humans and animals at all. The way we communicate, the way we cultivate, and unfortunately - the way we destroy our planet - is very unlike how all other animals behave.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Korn View Post
    What? Who? Why?
    I've had a brief look at this thread and have a hard time finding out which topic it is that actually is being discussed. Apart from the arguments on both sides of the abortion debate, what exactly is it - that has to do with eating meat - that is being discussed?
    'Lo Korn,

    The general idea was to find an argument that justifies abortion on demand that meat eaters could not possibly hi-jack to justify eating meat on demand, as it were.

    And CS - what are your own views on this?

    Have you stated anything that justifies calling you a 'buddhist meat eater'?
    That one had a 'lol!' attached making it clear that it was said in good humour and not intended to cause offence.

    Good humour, especialy on a highly fraught topic, is always justified imho.

    What are the answers to your own questions? Is your main point that you are 'against abortion?
    I am a vegan Korn. I am against killing anything that is within the animal domain.

    Is it that you think defending abortion equals justifying 'eating-meat-on-demand'?
    Abortion on demand is only neccessary when abortion is being demanded as a lifestyle choice.

    Yes, I do think that to the meat numbed mind that any argument that justifies killing humans as part of our lifestyle choice would also serve as justification for killing animals as part of a lifestyle choice for them.

    Any concrete answer would be highly appreciated. Just don't make your answer as long as my answers often are.
    I hope those answers were short and concrete enough.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Very very few people use abortion on demand as a lifestyle choice (by which I assume you mean taking no precautions then getting abortions continually). It wouldn't make good sense to do that from a health or financial point of view, leaving aside ethical considerations. If there are some people who do do that, I would think they've got problems, and would make pretty bad parents anyway! What kind of life do people imagine the children would have who were the result of these extremely unwanted pregnancies?

    Being vegan is about doing the least harm possible, I've always felt. We accept that no matter what care we take some animals will still be harmed by us as consumers (e.g. the oft-touted animals killed in grain harvesting), but we do it because we know that there is less harm in what we do, surely?

    It doesn't seem that the original poster is prepared to see other viewpoints than their own, and perhaps the above has already been said, if not here, then in the other threads on the same topic which have already covered this ground exhaustively.
    "If you don't have a song to sing you're okay, you know how to get along humming" Waltz (better than fine) - Fiona Apple

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    I agree that no one in their right mind would choose abortions as an alternative to contraception. However, some people probably do decide they must have abortions (e.g. after contraceptive failure) for economic reasons, and the UK government's welfare "reforms" seem likely to add to the pressure to do that.

    So if someone wanted to help reduce the number of abortions performed for non-medical reasons, IMO their best bet might be to support a charity like Gingerbread which campaigns on behalf of single parents.
    Last edited by harpy; Dec 4th, 2010 at 02:55 PM. Reason: clarification

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Manzana View Post
    A human hand is "human" but not a human.
    A human sperm is "human" but not a human
    A human embryo is equally "human" but not a human

    Let's not confuse the part and the whole.
    Nor let's confuse the whole with the part.

    If that ever happened we'd have people clamouring for amputation on demand as well ..
    All done in the best possible taste ...

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