Christianity and vegetarianism - The Vegan Forum

After The Rain · July 18th, 2004, 12:13

I'm not a Christian myself, but find it interesting that there are so many veg-friendly quotes in the Bible!

http://www.thenazareneway.com/index_vegetarian.htm
http://www.thenazareneway.com/Biblic...esh_Eating.htm
http://www.thenazareneway.com/biblic...enis_giron.htm
http://www.thenazareneway.com/thou_shalt_not_kill.htm

eve · July 19th, 2004, 7:05

For someone who's not a christian, you're sure pushing it! BTW I'm not a christian either.

mike · July 19th, 2004, 22:00

I just have to point out a few things...

The Bible does not in fact contain "many veg-friendly quotes." Indeed the sub-title of the second page you linked to is "EXPLANATIONS AS TO WHY THE BIBLE CONTAINS SO FEW OBSERVATIONS CONDEMNING THE VICTIMIZATION AND KILLING OF ANIMALS". The Bible is the product of an ancient culture where pretty much everyone ate meat and believed that God wanted them to sacrifice animals to him. Of course the Bible reflects those beliefs.

The quotes on that page are generally taken out of context and twisted around. The few that really do seem to support vegetarianism are not in the Bible at all - they are from non-canonical books that were written much later than the books of the Bible and which basically no Christians believe are inspired.

As for the actual biblical quotes, it is nonsense. I will give you a few examples. The site claims that rtzch (the root of the tirtzach the site talks about) means "any kind of killing whatsoever". Well that's news to me. As far as I knew it meant "murder" and had always meant "murder". So I checked the BDB and Koehler-Baumgartner lexicons (which are the standard references) and, indeed, it means murder. Lo tirtzach = do not murder. I even used some bible software to look up every occurance of the root rtzch in the Bible. That verb occurs 49 times and not once is it referring to an animal. Moreover in the same books (Ex and Deut) where God says "lo tirtzach", he also repeatedly tells the Israelites to sacrifice animals to him, so it's pretty clear he wasn't referring to animals.

Two more examples: The site claims that Daniel was a vegetarian. Nonsense. Daniel was an Israelite being served by a foreigner. Even today Jews have to worry about eating with non-Jews due to the extensive dietary restrictions (ie, not eating pork, etc, etc) their religion imposes. The simplest way to make sure none of these rules are broken is to eat only vegetables. Indeed, the book presents it as a miracle that Daniel and his friends still appeared healthy after 10 days of only vegetables.

The site points to Romans 14:21 also, which says "It is right to abstain from eating meat or drinking wine or from anything else which causes a fellow-Christian to stumble." Well... how about just a few verses earlier in Romans 14:2 "For instance, one person may have faith strong enough to eat all kinds of food, while another who is weaker eats only vegetables." The point of the chapter is that while there is no real reason to abstain from meat or wine, or do any other random thing, some people need crutches like that, and that's fine. And moreover if by eating meat or drinking wine or doing something else you would make it more difficult for someone else to come to Christ (ie perhaps the person would be offended by your eating meat and thus wouldn't even listen to what you had to say), then you may abstain from meat or wine.

If you want to know what the Bible says, read it. I cannot emphasize enough how often people twist the words of the Bible (both Christians and non-Christians) to mean something other than what it says, or even the complete opposite of what it says. A while back I started reading on my own and now studying the Bible one of my favorite activities. I've learned a crapload about ancient Near East history and I'm learning Hebrew and I plan to someday learn Greek.

I'm an atheist, btw.

DontJustDoSomething, SitThere · July 20th, 2004, 0:26

Quote:

I cannot emphasize enough how often people twist the words of the Bible (both Christians and non-Christians) to mean something other than what it says, or even the complete opposite of what it says.

I'm amazed by how many people who claim that they know what someone who wrote something 2000 years ago really meant, and how frustrated they are with the interpretations that others are making. They all seem to disagree, and all claim that they are right.

mike · July 20th, 2004, 3:23

Well there's some truth to this but on the other hand the plain meaning of something is its plain meaning. The Bible is the work of many authors over many years and despite what some Christians say it is not 100% consistent in all areas and some portions of it are very poetic so yes there is some room for differing views in some areas... BUT nevertheless many things the Bible very clearly says and there are also many things it very clearly does NOT say. It's a book like any other, why pretend like it's impossible to figure out what it really says? The Bible doesn't support vegetarianism. If you'd like to dispute that claim feel free to back it up.

Ex. 29:11 You will then slaughter the bull before Yahweh at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting.

Ex. 29:16 You will then slaughter the ram, take its blood and pour it against the altar, all round.

Ex. 29:20 You will then slaughter the ram, take some of its blood and put it on the lobe of AaronÕs right ear, on the lobes of his sonsÕ right ears, the thumbs of their right hands, and the big toes of their right feet, and pour the rest of the blood against the altar, all round.

Lev. 1:5 He will then slaughter the bull before Yahweh, and the priests descended from Aaron will offer the blood. They will pour it all around the altar which stands at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting.

Lev. 1:11 He will slaughter it on the north side of the altar, before Yahweh, and the priests descended from Aaron will pour the blood all around the altar.

Lev. 4:4 He will bring the bull before Yahweh at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting, will lay his hand on its head and slaughter it before Yahweh.

Lev. 4:24 He will then lay his hand on the goatÕs head and slaughter it on the spot where the burnt offerings are slaughtered before Yahweh. This is a sacrifice for sin;

Lev. 14:13 He will then slaughter the lamb on that spot inside the holy place where the victims for the sacrifice for sin and for the burnt offering are slaughtered. This reparatory offering, like the sacrifice for sin, will revert to the priest: it is especially holy.

Lev. 14:25 He will then slaughter the lamb for the sacrifice of reparation, take some of its blood and put it on the lobe of the right ear, the thumb of the right hand and the big toe of the right foot of the person who is being purified.

Lev. 14:50 He will slaughter one of the birds in an earthenware pot over running water.

Lev. 11:3 You may eat any animal that has a cloven hoof, divided into two parts, and that is a ruminant.

Lev. 11:9 Of all that lives in water, these you may eat: Anything that has fins and scales, and lives in the water, whether in sea or river, you may eat.

Lev. 11:22 These are the ones you may eat: the various kinds of migratory locust, the various kinds of solham locust, hargol locust and hagab locust.

etc etc etc.

artbeat · July 20th, 2004, 9:39

Interesting quotes, Mike. It makes me wonder how it is possible to be a Christian and a vegetarian.

artbeat · July 20th, 2004, 21:10

Additionally, sometimes I wonder if there's something wrong with me, because I even don't understand the language of Christian preachers. I'll protect my 'source', but here's something written by someone who is Christian and vegetarian.

"Thankfully, mercifully, and sadly, Christ was born, lived a sinless life (He was a "lamb" without blemish) and crucified to be our once-for-all sacrifice. The blood of animals could only cover sin, but the blood of Christ cleansed all away. When a Christian talks about being "born again," they mean dying to their old sin and self and being raised again by the Holy Spirit into Christ's blood-forgiveness -- basically, accepting His blood sacrifice to cleanse our sins, making us new creatures in Him!

This means that now the blood of animals is no longer required -- and I think the temple was destroyed to drive this point home (sacrifice could only occur at the temple).

So while the Bible does not "support" vegetarianism (I think it's silly to try to make it "support" something -- I believe it's the truth, and so I want to adjust myself to what my Lord tells me, not try to find ways to make the words "support" things! In short, I want to read honestly and openly and conform to what He tells me), it is not incongruous with the idea. I do believe God gave us dominion over animals, but I think things like the meat industry are terrible abuses of that gift. The meat industry did not exist in ancient Israel, and they didn't have to figure out how to respond to it. So I don't think it's irresponsible, now, to stop supporting hurtful industries.

I hope that made it a little more apparent how one might believe the Bible and still want to support only those who they believe are "good stewards" of what God has given to us."

mike · July 21st, 2004, 0:34

Indeed. It seems to me that being a vegetarian for certain specific reasons (such as not supporting the practices of industry) is not at all in conflict with the Bible but on the other hand the Bible's perspective certainly does not support the notion that eating meat or killing animals is inherently wrong. That doesn't appear to change after Jesus either - Paul makes clear in Romans 14 and elsewhere that eating meat is still OK, and in Acts 10 Peter receives a revelation that seems to indicate that previous dietary restrictions are lifted also.

eve · July 21st, 2004, 13:59

I'm not terribly interested in this subject, but if, as you say, the blood of christ cleansed away all sin, why is it that sinning continues? What was the point of the sacrifice? And how can you adjust yourself to what the Lord tells you, when he never wrote a word. The bible was written by many different people. Yes, christians say they believe God gave us dominion over animals, but obviously you do recognise that having dominion does not mean a right to torture, slaughter, and consume animals, but you are in a minority here, as most christians believe that it really does give such a right.

Jivana108 · July 21st, 2004, 15:32

Here are a few of my favorites.....

Genesis 1:29 "And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb-bearing seed and every tree, in which is the fruit of the tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

Exodus 20:13 "Thou shalt not kill"

Genesis 9:4-5 "But flesh with the life therof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. And surely your blood of your lives will require; at the hand of every beast will I require it.

Isaiah 1:11, 15 "To what is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? Said the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of goats. When ye spread forth your hands, I will hide Mine eyes from you: Yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear, for your hands are full of blood.

Isaiah 66:3 "He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man"

Leviticus 3:17 "It shall be a perpetual statue for your generations throuout all your dwellings, that ye eat neither fat nor blood."

Leviticus 17:10 "And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of strangers who sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set My face against that soul that eateth blood."

mike · July 22nd, 2004, 1:28

The word you have as "meat" in Gen 1:29 is appropriate for archaic English but for modern English it is beter translated as food. God tells Adam and Eve they should eat those things, not necessarily that they shouldn't eat anything else.

Exodus 20:13 is better translated as "Do not murder". God makes abundantly clear throughout Exodus and elsewhere that he does not mind killing animals and in fact requires the regular killing of animals and moreover requires the slaughter of thousands of people on certain occasions.

The Isaiah quotes are just God being pissed.

The Leviticus quotes and the Gen 9:4-5 are dietary restrictions against consuming blood, not flesh. Religious Jews still comply with this regulation. To comply, they slaughter animals as they always have, which is to cut its throat and let the blood drain out.

Frank Lucas · July 22nd, 2004, 2:03

It seems to me I get so many contradictions in Bible / People / vegans / Non vegans etc.
Old moody blues (Why do we never get an answer when whear knocking on the door)
I'd love to be able to live more at peace with myself. Being vegan makes it a lot easier. There never is an answer for there never is a question.
Aloha

TheFirstBus · July 22nd, 2004, 23:57

The bible has gone through thousands of years of writings and translations and has been trnaslated wrong a few times. How many time do anny of you know?? To completly rely on the bible for you godly reference is just stupid try you faith out for a while and if anyone doubts you because you can't back your beliefs up screw them. I believe in god, I do not believe in organized religion most often.

mike · July 23rd, 2004, 1:40

Quote:

The bible has gone through thousands of years of writings and translations and has been trnaslated wrong a few times. How many time do anny of you know??

We have the Dead Sea Scrolls, which are from right around the time of Jesus and which contain fragments of every book of the Hebrew Bible but one in the original Hebrew. They certainly confirm the essential accuracy of the Masoretic Text, which is the Hebrew Bible as copied by Jewish scribes with an obsession for accuracy around 1000 years ago.

We also have the Septuagint, a Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible. We have manuscripts of it again from roughly the time of Jesus. While there are some differences between the Septuagint and the Masoretic Text, the differences do not change much overall.

As for the New Testament, we have complete manuscripts back certainly to the fourth century and to some extent to the third century.

My point is that these establish "freeze points." In terms of what we know today, it's irrelevant if Jimbo the scribe made an error in copying the Bible 800 years ago, or if Bob the translator made an error at some point translating into Aramaic - because we can easily look at the earlier manuscript and know what the earlier version said.

Quote:

To completly rely on the bible for you godly reference is just stupid try you faith out for a while and if anyone doubts you because you can't back your beliefs up screw them. I believe in god, I do not believe in organized religion most often.

It seems to me that your position is more "stupid" than someone who relies on the Bible. At least a Bible believer has something to back up his belief in God - that is, the testimony of dozens of ancient witnesses. Whereas your belief in God is apparently based on nothing, just because you feel like believing in God.

TheFirstBus · July 23rd, 2004, 1:45

Alright, Alright. Maybe I have choosen my words unwisly. No need to bash me.

eve · July 23rd, 2004, 8:04

Mike: "A Bible believer has something to back up his belief in God - that is, the testimony of dozens of ancient witnesses."

Really? witnesses? where's the evidence?

mike · July 23rd, 2004, 23:14

Sigh...

The evidence is the books that they wrote about it which are collected in the Bible. Don't try to argue with me that that isn't enough evidence to be proof because I agree with you - that's one reason why, as I stated above, I'm an atheist.

My point wasn't to completely justify belief in the Bible. My point was to address TheFirstBus, who mocked belief in God based on the Bible but upheld belief in God based on... nothing. As I said, at least Bible believers have something to back up their beliefs, whereas TheFirstBus believes in God just because he feels like it.

TheFirstBus · July 24th, 2004, 2:47

I mock nothing I truely don't. I read and beleive int he bible. You misunderstand me. Please do no belittle me.

Frank Lucas · July 26th, 2004, 5:01

It can't be all an illusion.
Aloha

TheFirstBus · July 26th, 2004, 9:23

So you believe?? Or is it more complecated then that??

Vivisanctor · July 29th, 2004, 14:36

I believe...

...that while we are arguing over God and the bible, there are innocent creatures suffering.

...that perhaps God and our opinions about him are very irrelevant if our purpose is to reduce suffering.

...that our time is better spent fighting for animal rights, which is where we can make the largest reduction in suffering in this world.

Also remember, God condoning eating animals when the bible was written does not mean that he would condone the factory farms of today. This is a new era in human arrogance.

phillip888 · July 29th, 2004, 21:32

I have often wondered how people can worship an entity that is ethically corrupt and childish compared to many humans. I believe like many people that if there is a god, it probably has as much use for religion as I do (none), but what really saddens me is that people perpetuate so much anger, rivalry, and even violence over fiction that was created to make a population united and controllable

I think the 'proof' from the original post is handy for swaying the indoctrinated. People who prefer to live by faith and fear over rational thought and compassion do need references from their faith to change their ways. It doesn't matter if it's true because as is the nature of faith, the truth is inconsequential. What matters is that they change their ways to comply with their masters command. If you can convince them that their master wants them to be more compassionate then everyone is happy and all ends well, right?

Frank Lucas · July 30th, 2004, 3:03

Yeah it's really good one of the above has pointed out the shocking abuse of creatures on Animal production. (Good to jolt people into reality)
Yet yesterday I hear 2 Aldult males going on about how guy in school from Casino used to bury Kittens up to their necks in the back yard and then run a lawn mower over them. I'd really like to think of something happy.
I tell a police officer at Casino how some guy who assulted me also broke his own cats neck. (They just didn't seem to care at all about the cat incident)
I still try to believe in some good bible stories.
I do find some very intelligent coments through the Vegan Forum.
I think it really helps to keep me Vegan.
Aloha

mike · August 1st, 2004, 20:52

Cleansing away sin does not mean that people do not sin. It means they are forgiven.

The Christian view of it is this: The punishment for any sin is death. In the Old Testament God thus required Israel to sacrifice animals in order to atone for their sins. Jesus was the only man who lived without sin and thus his death was the perfect sacrifice, and with him no more sacrifices are necessary. So now you can have that sacrifice count for you too if you just accept it. It's supposed to be that no sinful person can be in the presence of God. And yet we are all sinful. But accepting Jesus's sacrifice cleanses your sins before God.

Now obviously I don't believe that, and I think it's a twist of the theology of the Hebrew Bible to make it fit Christianity.

Dominion means dominion. As in dominate. Once again, in the Bible God very clearly does give men a right to do whatever they want with animals.

Be the terror and the dread of all the animals on land and all the birds of heaven, of everything that moves on land and all the fish of the sea; they are placed in your hands. Every living thing that moves will be yours to eat, no less than the foliage of the plants. I give you everything.
Gen 9:2-3

Vivisanctor · August 1st, 2004, 23:35

mike-

Individual issues written about in the bible can be interpreted in many different ways. Just because you see a certain meaning in it does not mean that it is the only correct way of looking at it.

Even the same passage can be interpreted differently with different people.

The bible seems to contradict itself a lot of times. One passage will seemingly contradict another. You cannot have an opinion about what the bible is saying and then use one selected passage as proof, and expect that proof to be definitive proof of your standpoint. Because for every passage you show me that says a certain thing I can show you another that seems to say the opposite.

I dislike it when people use the bible to prove things. I hate it when they tell me this is just how it is since this is what this book says. The bible is not a step by step manual, it is a guide, a signpost. It is all about INTERPRETATION. Christians should use the bible to TEACH THEMSELVES about christianity.

You cannot debate the meaning of the bible with any more success than you can debate the color of the sky with a blind man.

FYI- I'm agnostic, and I do not read the bible any longer.

My point is that you are not able to prove with certainty your standpoint using what the bible says, because the bible says different things to different people. If you would like to debate the issue you may have more success appealing to people's understanding of their religion, not the poetic statements that can mean so many different things. Also remember that the bibles we read were translated into English.

also, you mentioned something about the word 'dominion.' For me, the word dominion does have the root meaning of 'domination,' but where does it say torture, mutilate, beat, starve, hurt, or eat? Humans put their own twist on that word. They did it to suit themselves, in order to feel justified in what they do. This is just one example of the many interpretations of words, which is what the bible is comprised of.

eve · August 2nd, 2004, 1:25

Let's hope that settles the subject, because for agnostics, like me, who don't read the bible any longer, we can't debate the meaning of the bible with any more success than one can debate the color of the sky with a blind man, as you say.

I must say though, that the US seems to be a very 'religious' country. Even its Vegan magazine, which was just passed to me (the Winter 2004 issue), I can't believe how many times 'God' is mentioned, let alone Gandhi and Luther King Jr. What's going on there? It's just a shame that you don't get to see our beautiful 'Vegan Voice' in Australia. Just wish I could send a copy to VeganMike, ConsciousCuisine, and other people whose postings I love to read!

mike · August 2nd, 2004, 2:02

Quote:

Individual issues written about in the bible can be interpreted in many different ways. Just because you see a certain meaning in it does not mean that it is the only correct way of looking at it.

Even the same passage can be interpreted differently with different people.

I addressed this before. Exactly how is the Bible different from any other work of literature in this respect, ancient or otherwise? What makes you think the authors of the books of the Bible were so incompetent that after reading their work someone could not possibly understand what they were trying to say?

Quote:

The bible seems to contradict itself a lot of times.

There are contradictions in the Bible. This is true. Many authors over many years wrote the books of the Bible. So, for example, did God ordain the entire tribe of Levi to be priests (Deut), or only the sons of Aaron (Ex & Lev)? But that does not mean that your ridiculous claim that "for every passage you show me that says a certain thing I can show you another that seems to say the opposite" has any basis in reality.

Quote:

For me, the word dominion does have the root meaning of 'domination,' but where does it say torture, mutilate, beat, starve, hurt, or eat?

Dominion is related to domination "for you"? It is related to domination, period. Where does it say that stuff? See my Gen quote earlier. Here it is again:

Be the terror and the dread of all the animals on land and all the birds of heaven, of everything that moves on land and all the fish of the sea; they are placed in your hands. Every living thing that moves will be yours to eat, no less than the foliage of the plants. I give you everything.
Gen 9:2-3

This is God speaking to Noah, by the way.

Quote:

I do not read the bible any longer.

So what makes you think you have any qualification whatsoever to try to school me on Biblical interpretation?

mattd · August 2nd, 2004, 5:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vivisanctor

I believe...

...that perhaps God and our opinions about him are very irrelevant if our purpose is to reduce suffering.

I strongly agree with this and think it's probably the best point made so far on this thread.

Quote:

I must say though, that the US seems to be a very 'religious' country. Even its Vegan magazine, which was just passed to me (the Winter 2004 issue), I can't believe how many times 'God' is mentioned, let alone Gandhi and Luther King Jr. What's going on there? It's just a shame that you don't get to see our beautiful 'Vegan Voice' in Australia. Just wish I could send a copy to VeganMike, ConsciousCuisine, and other people whose postings I love to read!

Yeah, the US is very religous when compared to much of Europe (and I assume Australia as well). The religous right has unfortunately been gaining ground here. Our illegitimate president is a fundamentalist christian. And tons of young people are becoming conservative christians (at least here in the midwest). It has made me angry that many of these people believe that god "needs to be brought back into government," but there are still enough "liberal" minded people around who will combat that ideology. I guess that was a little off subject in the vegan forum, sorry.

artbeat · August 2nd, 2004, 9:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eve

And how can you adjust yourself to what the Lord tells you, when he never wrote a word. The bible was written by many different people. Yes, christians say they believe God gave us dominion over animals, but obviously you do recognise that having dominion does not mean a right to torture, slaughter, and consume animals, but you are in a minority here, as most christians believe that it really does give such a right.

Just to clarify, the quote I mentioned from a Christian isn't something I agree in, it was something another member here posted me. I used it to illustrate that I don't even understand the language of Christian preachers. I'm not a Christian, and not a follower of any religion. I think Christianity gained popularity in US and Europe because other religions that "makes more sense" weren't already established. To me, the way Christians interpret the Bible in various ways and blindly tries to adjust their lives to their interpretation looks more like mass psychosis than spirituality.

Vivisanctor · August 2nd, 2004, 15:59

Mattd -
right on.. I was thinking that perhaps your thoughts about the religious situation in the US are not so off topic. It is unfathomable that many of the people in a country with such strong spirituality engage in such disgusting behavior. Don't the people of the US eat more animals and do more animal testing per person than any other country in the world? Don't we allow our fellow man to suffer and die right next to the buildings in which millionaires work? The way I resolve in my mind what you were saying is that if our religions allow for such behavior, we need some new religions

hehe. Actually, we just need a deeper understanding of our religions. Most religions are based on compassion, and compassion gets a lot of people very far. Too many people stray too far away, and and don't know how to get back--that is the real problem.
Mike-
I have no qualifications that I care to share with you. I do not waste time trying to prove myself to others. From time to time I will prove my thoughts, but my identity and worth as a person is not in question and I will not defend myself under such scrutiny. I meant no offense in my post. I wrote it with the utmost respect and compassion for you and anyone else on this forum. I apologize for your feelings being hurt, but it is not my fault, and I will no longer discuss the topic with you. I will leave you with your bruised ego, and hope that you realize that you greatly misunderstood not only the content of my thoughts, but also the air of togetherness in which they were written. If you want to be right, be right; but understand that in the pursuit of rightness you will discredit out of habit many concepts that could help you grow.

mattd · August 2nd, 2004, 20:23

Yeah, I agree that it's very messed up in that way. But from what I've seen with most religions is that people will use it as a crutch up to the point that it serves their own selfish intersts. From there, they'll use it as a way to justifiy inequities in the world. Now I don't mean to throw this curtain over every religous person in the country (or the world), but I do think that it's a problem in every single religion. To often religion is used by those in power to run crusades, jihads, genocides, or what have you. And it is being used by the current administration (although they are obviously trying to downplay the President's fudamentalist tendencies) in everything from war to marriage rights.

JaredM · October 5th, 2004, 1:28

I recently was at the more and went to a bookstore with my brother. I was looking for vegan books but found a book called "the makers diet" or something like that. Probabably simalair to a book called something like "eating God's way". Well anyway in "The Makers Diet" it had like foods to avoid and foods to eat. In the foods to eat part was things like veal, lamb, venison, poultry and basically lots of meat and other things that dont have anything to do with my story. Well in the part foods to avoid there was things like, soy products, veggie burgers, soy milk and rice milk. I guess the guy was saying that God says do not eat imitation meat? Also was things like All fruits except for like berries and something else in the foods to avoid section. IT specified that it included bannanas and apples and other things. I find all of this rather odd. Now please do not judge all christians like this as I am christian and do not eat any meat. I find it weird that this person would condone eating veal of all things and say you should avoid imitation products and soy and rice milk. Just thought i share this with people.

John · October 5th, 2004, 1:39

The original Christians were vegetarians and pacifists before they were persecuted out of existence. Unfortunately, people use religion to justify what they are already doing. Right now I am re-reading Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass, an American Slave. In his book he talks about how the religious slaveholders were always the most cruel. By the way, you can get that book for free online at Project Gutenberg.

JaredM · October 5th, 2004, 2:10

My parents try to justify there eating meat by saying "in the bible god gives us animals for food" and i say "well read your bible cause mine says plants are for food" and in the bible it says "thou shalt not kill" I havent told them that one yet.

Artichoke47 · October 5th, 2004, 4:15

I, too, am a Christian and get tired of people claiming that God promotes murderous, cruel acts. God is peaceful. God is loving. God created the creatures, gave them life. It is not for man to decide which animals are "important" and which are not.

Ask them these questions:

If humans were supposed to eat meat and cow milk, why is it that so many health problems are associated with their consumption?

If God "put animals on this earth for man," why is it that there are not enough animals naturally occurring in nature to feed man and that genetic modification and engineering occur?

Why in the hell is it that factory farming causes more pollution than any other source? Is that what God wanted?

ConsciousCuisine · October 5th, 2004, 5:43

"The Maker's Diet" is a High Protein "Right" Fats Diet with low GI foods and advocates use of "Goatein", Raw Goat Dairy, Kefir, Goat Protein and Probiotics. The book seems to be written mainly because Dr. Jordan S. Rubin had supplements to push. Garden Of Life Products are his.

mysh · October 5th, 2004, 15:00

I get the "Ezekiel 4:9" sprouted grain bread (see http://www.foodforlife.com/index.asp ), which is part of this "Maker's Diet", according to a sticker on it. However, it can also be a part of a strict vegetarian diet, which is why I get it

It's also quite delicious, toasted, with a thin layer of earth balance... yum-yum.

Gorilla · October 5th, 2004, 16:17

have a look at some of these websites if you're interested:
www.jesusveg.com
www.allcreatures.org
http://recipecircus.com/recipes/CVC/

www.christianveg.com/famousveg.html mentions Moby, who is probably the most famous vegan Christian.

JaredM · October 5th, 2004, 22:15

Thanks for the great replys. Hey artichoke47 I didnt know that there would be christian vegans here. It is my observations that most vegans arent christians and most christians arent vegan. Maybe we can talk. That's cool that moby is a vegan and christian. I new that he was a vegetarian but thats all.

Artichoke47 · October 5th, 2004, 22:48

Sure, Jared. Send me a PM if you want.

I noticed, too, that many of the vegans I encounter are agnostic or atheist. I also find that many people believe that veganism is against Christian beliefs, which I find kind of amusing.

ktk · October 8th, 2004, 3:46

speaking of christians and cookbooks...has anyone here heard of or read Back To Eden by Jethro Kloss? Kloss was a devout christian who wrote an amazing guide to herbal medicine and natural living back in the late 1930's. some of the science is obviously dated but it is filled with some very interesting and wonderful recipes...all vegan.
there are recipes for everything from soy cheese to nut milk to almond butter.
he was definitely a pioneer who believed that a diet free of animal products was what god intended. he was very much against the use of processed foods that were springing up at the time. it is quite an interesting read. i found a copy in a used book store years ago and i still refer to it from time to time.

Northern Lights · October 8th, 2004, 12:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaredM

Thanks for the great replys. Hey artichoke47 I didnt know that there would be christian vegans here. It is my observations that most vegans arent christians and most christians arent vegan. Maybe we can talk.

Did you know that ALL the vegans I know personally are Christians? Of one form or another. They have all been motivated by their faith to be vegan. Me too! Add another Christian vegan to your count.

cedarblue · October 8th, 2004, 14:00

Christian and vegan also

mysh · October 8th, 2004, 14:58

Used to be christian - turned veg*n shortly after dumping that crock...

But it's really cool if your religion motivates you to veganism!

cowpie · October 8th, 2004, 20:32

I'm a Christian vegan, too. I agree, that it seems like most vegans aren't Christians, and most Christians aren't vegan. Many seem to think that veganism is their "religion." I'm currently having a "discussion" on a Christian site about Christianity and veganism, and so far, only two posters have seen my point of view. Some of them didn't even know about Genesis 29-30, which are the verses in which God laid out our diet....a vegan one. We were only given permission to eat meat after the flood, when all the vegetation on earth was destroyed.
I agree with you, Artichoke....many Christians seem to think that veganism is against Christianity. They think that since God gave us permission to eat meat, it's the diet we're suppose to follow. It's funny, how many Christians refuse to acknowledge the original vegan diet. They're in denial, I think. I live with some Christians who listen to me about veganism, but for some reason, they think I'm talking about somebody else when I mention that eating meat wasn't God's original plan. I just don't get it.....That's probably why so many vegans shun Christianity....

ConsciousCuisine · October 8th, 2004, 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by ktk

speaking of christians and cookbooks...has anyone here heard of or read Back To Eden by Jethro Kloss? Kloss was a devout christian who wrote an amazing guide to herbal medicine and natural living back in the late 1930's. some of the science is obviously dated but it is filled with some very interesting and wonderful recipes...all vegan.
there are recipes for everything from soy cheese to nut milk to almond butter.
he was definitely a pioneer who believed that a diet free of animal products was what god intended. he was very much against the use of processed foods that were springing up at the time. it is quite an interesting read. i found a copy in a used book store years ago and i still refer to it from time to time.

Ktk, I grew up with this book! My family used it as our "Bible" and "Doctor" of sorts! I have several copies in my lending library...

It is a true classic and I am quite fond of it...

Northern Lights · October 8th, 2004, 20:48

Cowpie- I constantly get the "but God said it was o.k. after the flood..." from people. I found it interesting that in studying about the Jewish Talmud, they had clarified (during their study of the O.T.) that while God gave meat after the flood, He had prior given the command to care for the animals. In easy terms, we are not to cause the needless suffering of animals. Thus, there are many Jews that are now vegan because of modern farming / industry practices.This is what I commonly mention to Christian friends that think I've gone off the deep end.
Also, and we just were studying this, lifespans decreased HUGELY after the flood. Lots of reasons, I'm sure, but eating meat perhaps one of them?

The people around me that are vegan Christians also believe that it is our responsiblity to care for our bodies as God's temple. Doesn't make a lot of sense to be sticking things in that are wrong.

As in any group of people there will be those that 'get it' and those that don't. Someone mentioned not being able to explain v*gism to people on the pagan site they visit. I guess just because we have one thing in common doesn't mean we're going to agree on everything. :0

JaredM · October 9th, 2004, 4:38

Wow, more christian vegans, cool. My parents think that God gave us the right to eat meat. The only problem with that is that there basing it on nothing except the meat-eating culture around them. They think God put us on the top of the food chain and we rule and can use animals for whatever. Also my family was sad when they heard about a dog being shot by someone and i asked them why they were sad? They said "oh come on Jared, we dont eat dogs." So they said they were sad because they dont eat dogs? There big speciasts

cowpie · October 9th, 2004, 21:13

Amen, JaredM....

eve · October 10th, 2004, 9:13

as a non-christian vegan, I'm beginning to feel outnumbered and crowded out!

Atlanta Newbie · October 10th, 2004, 17:07

My veganism is an extension and affirmation of my spiritual beliefs. I am not Christian, nor do I consider myself agnostic or atheist. I find it unfortunate that our society presents Christianity and atheism as an either/or proposition, as if there were no other approaches to the divine beyond Christianity.

I personally believe that Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Islam are all the same thing at their core, with a lot of culture-specific layers added to that core in each case. My "religion" is the thing found at the core. I just prefer to add my own layers based on personal experience and what rings true in my own heart.

Jeez... where did all of *that* come from? Back to your regularly scheduled discussion!

eve · October 11th, 2004, 8:05

Atlanta Newbie, I agree with all you say including the first sentence, except for one point - Buddhism doesn't fit with the others, as a creator god doesn't figure in the philosophy. Be happy!

Veggie4Life139 · October 12th, 2004, 3:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaredM

Thanks for the great replys. Hey artichoke47 I didnt know that there would be christian vegans here. It is my observations that most vegans arent christians and most christians arent vegan. Maybe we can talk. That's cool that moby is a vegan and christian. I new that he was a vegetarian but thats all.

Hi JaredM and artichoke47,
I'm a Christian vegan too! If you guys want to talk sometime I would be more than happy too.

!!!

Andie · October 12th, 2004, 21:10

I've noticed many have posted they are Christian. I'm just curious, would you consider yourself liberal, main line or conservative in theology.
If I'm asking questions, I owe an answer myself. I was raised Christian but like another poster, I believe that at the essence all religions teach the same thing. I participate in the cultural trappings of Christianity i.e. Christmas decorations, family gatherings.

mysh · October 12th, 2004, 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andie

I participate in the cultural trappings of Christianity i.e. Christmas decorations, family gatherings.

I didn't know that family gatherings were Christian! I hope noone notices I'm agnostic at mine next year!

Atlanta Newbie · October 13th, 2004, 1:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by eve

Atlanta Newbie, I agree with all you say including the first sentence, except for one point - Buddhism doesn't fit with the others, as a creator god doesn't figure in the philosophy. Be happy!

Hi Eve, good point. However, I do think a creative intelligence (creator) is compatible with Buddhism if not explicitly a part of the religion itself... at least it's compatible with the aspects that I adopt for myself.

phillip888 · October 13th, 2004, 6:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by mysh

I didn't know that family gatherings were Christian! I hope noone notices I'm agnostic at mine next year!

Hey, they might call homeland security.

As implied before, I think the author of the makers diet was just trying to distinguish his 'diet' from others as that makes a recognizable and therefore marketable product. Soy is not an ideal food compared to many other plants, but you're probably looking at it from the perspective of 'dead bodies and pus VS plant food'. In that contest soy is a maricle.

mysonvaughn · December 1st, 2004, 0:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike

Ex. 29:20 You will then slaughter the ram, take some of its blood and put it on the lobe of AaronÕs right ear, on the lobes of his sonsÕ right ears, the thumbs of their right hands, and the big toes of their right feet, and pour the rest of the blood against the altar, all round.

Lev. 1:5 He will then slaughter the bull before Yahweh, and the priests descended from Aaron will offer the blood. They will pour it all around the altar which stands at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting.

.

The new testament would be a lot more appropriate when trying to relate to christianity.

mysonvaughn · December 1st, 2004, 0:34

Seems to me a belief in God could be justified just based on that fact that so many cultures and people have that one belief in common. You don't have to believe Isaac or Jesus or Rah to believe that there at least is a creator. You don't particularly need the Bible to back it up. BTW in case anyone cares at all I am agnostic (well, currently a practicing atheist)

eve · December 1st, 2004, 6:43

msvaughan - you say that the new testament would be a lot more appropriate when trying to relate to christianity, but don't forget that Jesus came in for a mention many times in this thread, and he was brought up with the OT, as he was a Jew. The NT wasn't written for many years after his death.

You also say that a belief in God could be justified based on that fact that so many cultures and people have that one belief in common. Really? Do you know how many millions of people around the world do not believe in a god, eg, buddhists, atheists? And you also believe there is a creator - well I don't go for creationism, though I hear they are bringing that strange belief back into American schools.